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[snaildog]

Adventure of Link. I just played through it and damn it was good. It does get extra points for actually having hard enemies, but still. None of the others have jumping, ducking, upthrust, downthrust etc, and you get absolutely swarmed with enemies and fireballs sometimes and have to use them all. Oh and every second enemy doesn't drop a heart... in fact none of them do. You have to learn to be good, simple as that. I wish they'd make another Zelda like this for the Game Boy instead of endless LTTP clones.

 

[nubbe]

I wish 3D Zelda had some of the battle features which are found in AoL.

AoL is the anti WW, you’ll get owned if your not paying attention… Long time since I played it, but I kind of recall that the last areas where fairly brutal… and you always tried to avoid the “devil” and go for the blob

 

[drohne]

agreed. it's the only competent action game in the zelda series. the oot combat system was always sort of lax and simplistic, and is becoming increasingly dated. from the videos, it looks as if it's made it over to the next zelda intact. :/

 

[Mejilan]

Actually, WW did have the jumping downward stab, as one of those A button-green sword parry/counter attack thingies.

There was also a variant of the jumping upward stab from AoL, though it was more of a slash in WW.

 

[AssMan]

I think WW takes it. The parry moves were great.

 

[Mejilan]

Seriously, I think the 3D Zelda games have some of the most robust 3D action/adventure fighting mechanics ever. Intuitive, quick, responsive, and surprisingly functional and varied, given the rather large amount of weaponry at hand by the time the games wind down.

WW was the most fun to play. As it was faster and more responsive than the N64 games, featured loads more enemies at once, even more weaponry, and those fun, fun, fun parries.

But I did miss the Stalfos duels from OoT. WW really didn't have anything like that.

 

[jarrod]

agreed. it's the only competent action game in the zelda series. the oot combat system was always sort of lax and simplistic, and is becoming increasingly dated. from the videos, it looks as if it's made it over to the next zelda intact. :/

Eh, I don't see any other modern ARPGs with better combat engines. Kingdom Hearts, Dual Hearts, Ys, Drakengard, PSO, FFCC, CoN, Baldur's Gate DA1-2... nothing else is really on Zelda's level.

 

[ToyMachine228]

Yeah, I definitely vote for The Wind Waker...I can still hear that noise, telling me to dodge, and counter attack.

 

[Gahiggidy]

"Adventure of Link" is a depressing game.

 

[Yusaku]

Adventure of Link.

Agreed.

 

[jett]

Yep, Zelda II's fighting mechanics are unmatched in the Zelda world yet. And I agree with Drohne, it's disappoiting that it seems that the next Zelda will be based on OoT's gameplay system again.

 

[EmSeta]

I also want to see an AoL-styled Zelda game for the GBA.

 

[hobbitx]

I sure didn't find anything that amazing about Zelda II's combat, the downward stab was pretty cool and impressive, but after a while it gets old just like anything else. On the stronger enemies it's hard as hell to do, and when you do finally land it your left wide open and get a sword up your ass. The actual combat was pretty basic, duck, slash, duck slash etc. I liked the combat in other Zelda games way more than Zelda II's, I also had much more fun with Battle of Olympus's take on that style of combat.

Best sound effects in a Zelda game ever though, I'll give it that.

 

[jarrod]

I also want to see an AoL-styled Zelda game for the GBA.

Here you go!

 

[Ristamar]

I'd say Wind Waker... the combat was easy as hell but still more fun and varied than any of the others.

 

[Ferrio]

I sure didn't find anything that amazing about Zelda II's combat, the downward stab was pretty cool and impressive, but after a while it gets old just like anything else. On the stronger enemies it's hard as hell to do, and when you do finally land it your left wide open and get a sword up your ass. The actual combat was pretty basic, duck, slash, duck slash etc. I liked the combat in other Zelda games way more than Zelda II's, I also had much more fun with Battle of Olympus's take on that style of combat.

Best sound effects in a Zelda game ever though, I'll give it that.

End boss fight rocks.

 

[ge-man]

For pure fighting mechanics, WW destroys Zelda 2 IMO. Where Zelda 2 succeeds is in the game design. WW is way too forgiving for the agility and variety of moves at Link's command. The fighting system that the 3D Zelda's share only need a few modifications--the real revamping needs to center around the AI and strength of enemy characters. Getting hit by a club or sword should take off more than a fraction of a heart piece. Enemies should also do a better job of defending themselves and attempting to get the upper hand on Link--a frontal assault is not interesting or challenging.

 

[snaildog]

In the 3D Zeldas you can only strike with your sword at the one height, and in AOL there are five (upthrust - ducking - standing - jumping - downthrust). I don't really consider the one-button automatic moves in Wind Waker to be part of the control system.

 

[ge-man]

In the 3D Zeldas you can only strike with your sword at the one height, and in AOL there are five (upthrust - ducking - standing - jumping - downthrust). I don't really consider the one-button automatic moves in Wind Waker to be part of the control system.

At the same time you are still restricted to one plane, which was what I was hinting at in my post when I discussed improving the enemies. The 3D Zeldas haven't done a good job of using the 3D space to enhance the fighting. Most battles consist osf just wearing a creatue done by facing them head on. There's little need to switch between horizontal or vertical strikes, no do you have to block much.

Really, when I think about it the two systems are on par for mechanics alone--it's just that the AOL did a much better job of encouring you to use Link's various moves.

 

[jarrod]

In the 3D Zeldas you can only strike with your sword at the one height, and in AOL there are five (upthrust - ducking - standing - jumping - downthrust). I don't really consider the one-button automatic moves in Wind Waker to be part of the control system.

Er, the 3D Zeldas allow multiple height attacks as well (the jumping attack, horizontal vs vertical swipes as well as TWW's Parry). Looking at the simple range of combat moves in TWW...

-Horizontal Strike (B button or L target + analog left/right + B button)
-Vertical Strike (L target + B button)
-Combo Attack (B button X 3 or L target + B button x 3)
-Thrusting Strike (analog toward + B button)
-Thrusting Combo Attack (analog toward + B button X 3 or analog toward + L target + B button x 3)
-Spin Attack (Hold B button 3 seconds then release)
-Jumping Strike (Hold L + A button or L target + A button)
-Parry (L target + A button when "!" appears over enemy)
-Shield (R button)
-Sidestep (Hold L + analog left/right + A button or L target + analog left/right + A button)
-Backflip (Hold L + analog away + A button or L target + analog away + A button)

...and this doesn't take into account Link's variety of other weapons/items (many being distance weapons) or dropped enemy weapons which Link can pick up and use. TWW by far has the most complex combat engine of any ARPG to date, and easily more varied the AoL. ge-man's right, people seemingly can't grasp the difference between game mechanics and overall game design (where TWW falls apart thanks to the weakened enemy AI and damage settings).

 

[snaildog]

Er, the 3D Zeldas allow multiple height attacks as well (the jumping attack, horizontal vs vertical swipes as well as TWW's Parry).

Yeah, but the multiple height attacks don't do anything different. The jump attack is just a more powerful type of attack; the enemies can't actually block higher or lower (and before someone says it, yes the jump attack IS still a good part of the system and adds depth, but nothing to do with height).

...and this doesn't take into account Link's variety of other weapons/items (many being distance weapons) or dropped enemy weapons which Link can pick up and use.

AoL has the fire spell But the topic is about sword-fighting.

I just can't recall needing much timing or any precision in the 3D Zeldas. You can win most fights by holding block down until there's an opening and then hacking away, with not much fear of getting hit.

I'll get stoned for this, but maybe the lock-on system has to go. For one-on-one Stalfos fights it works well, but how are you ever gonna fight multiple enemies all attacking from each sides, each needing precise swipes and blocks with the right timing?

 

[AniHawk]

I'll get stoned for this, but maybe the lock-on system has to go. For one-on-one Stalfos fights it works well, but how are you ever gonna fight multiple enemies all attacking from each sides, each needing precise swipes and blocks with the right timing?

Well then don't lock on.

 

[tmdorsey]

Adventure of Link.

 

[jarrod]

Yeah, but the multiple height attacks don't do anything different. The jump attack is just a more powerful type of attack; the enemies can't actually block higher or lower (and before someone says it, yes the jump attack IS still a good part of the system and adds depth, but nothing to do with height).

Similarly, blocking can really only be done at two heights (standing/ducking) in AoL. So by your own standards there'd be only two attack levels that matter in that game, correct?

AoL has the fire spell

Compared to the boomarang, various arrows, grappling hook, deku leaf, hookshot or throwing bombs or picked up enemy weapons.

I just can't recall needing much timing or any precision in the 3D Zeldas. You can win most fights by holding block down until there's an opening and then hacking away, with not much fear of getting hit.

Which was more a problem with enemy AI than the combat engine itself. As explained repeatedly.

 

[snaildog]

Well then don't lock on.

-Horizontal Strike (B button or L target + analog left/right + B button)
-Vertical Strike (L target + B button)
-Combo Attack (B button X 3 or L target + B button x 3)
-Thrusting Strike (analog toward + B button)
-Thrusting Combo Attack (analog toward + B button X 3 or analog toward + L target + B button x 3)
-Spin Attack (Hold B button 3 seconds then release)
-Jumping Strike (Hold L + A button or L target + A button)
-Parry (L target + A button when "!" appears over enemy)
-Shield (R button)
-Sidestep (Hold L + analog left/right + A button or L target + analog left/right + A button)
-Backflip (Hold L + analog away + A button or L target + analog away + A button)

Look how many L's there are on that movelist!

 

[AniHawk]

Heh, good point.

I have an idea for deeper swordfighting in TLOZ. Man, if I ever got the chance to direct a Zelda game, I'd make sure it's the best Zelda ever...

Of course, that'd never happen because I'm a white guy who doesn't understand Japanese.

 

[snaildog]

Similarly, blocking can really only be done at two heights (standing/ducking) in AoL. So by your own standards there'd be only two attack levels that matter in that game, correct?

What are you talking about? There are more than two block levels, since you can jump. Enemies can also attack from above and below and everything; what do you mean by two attack levels?

Compared to the boomarang, various arrows, grappling hook, deku leaf, hookshot or throwing bombs or picked up enemy weapons.

Like I said, I'm talking about sword-fighting. I don't consider any of those weapons to add much depth at all anyway though.[/quote]

Which was more a problem with enemy AI than the combat engine itself. As explained repeatedly.

I'll have to take your word for it. Maybe there are feasible situations where you need to use a vertical attack rather than a horizontal attack, or rip out a 'thrusting combo attack' as opposed to a regular combo attack, but if none of these situations exist then I'll stand by my statement that AOL swordfighting is the best in the series.

Edit: We're possibly arguing about different things. I'm talking about which game has the best sword-fighting, whether it's down to enemy AI or not.

 

[StrikerObi]

It's the new one because you can fight shit on horseback. End of argument.

 

[jarrod]

What are you talking about? There are more than two block levels, since you can jump. Enemies can also attack from above and below and everything; what do you mean by two attack levels?

You were using blocking as some sort of standard as to what attacks became valid in the 3D Zeldas. I just applied that same standard to AoL.

Like I said, I'm talking about sword-fighting. I don't consider any of those weapons to add much depth at all anyway though.

Then maybe you should try using them more. In particular I found stunning multiple eneimes with the boomerang (or killing smaller enemies like bats outright) and using the grappling hook to snag items from enemies to be invaluable in TWW. Beyond just distance weapons though, the variety of equipment in the 3D Zeldas is really a huge advantage over AoL when comparing combat

I'll have to take your word for it. Maybe there are feasible situations where you need to use a vertical attack rather than a horizontal attack, or rip out a 'thrusting combo attack' as opposed to a regular combo attack, but if none of these situations exist then I'll stand by my statement that AOL swordfighting is the best in the series.

In practice, AoL might've used it's combat engine to better effect, but there's really no denying that the combat engine used in the 3D Zeldas is far more complex and indepth. The simple fact that it's in full 3D space alone does that actually.

 

[snaildog]

You were using blocking as some sort of standard as to what attacks became valid in the 3D Zeldas. I just applied that same standard to AoL.

I didn't say it makes them invalid, I said that the only difference between the attacks in terms of height is aesthetic because the enemies cover their whole body when they block.

Then maybe you should try using them more. In particular I found stunning multiple eneimes with the boomerang (or killing smaller enemies like bats outright) and using the grappling hook to snag items from enemies to be invaluable in TWW. Beyond just distance weapons though, the variety of equipment in the 3D Zeldas is really a huge advantage over AoL when comparing combat

You don't need to get patronising, I know how to play the damn game. For the third time: I am talking about sword-fighting.

In practice, AoL might've used it's combat engine to better effect

Then we're agreed.

 

[Red Dolphin]

For pure fighting mechanics, WW destroys Zelda 2 IMO. Where Zelda 2 succeeds is in the game design. WW is way too forgiving for the agility and variety of moves at Link's command. The fighting system that the 3D Zelda's share only need a few modifications--the real revamping needs to center around the AI and strength of enemy characters. Getting hit by a club or sword should take off more than a fraction of a heart piece. Enemies should also do a better job of defending themselves and attempting to get the upper hand on Link--a frontal assault is not interesting or challenging.

I agree. Zelda WW's fighting was a lot of fun and really well done. They just need to bump up the difficulty level by increasing the amount of damage (no more 1/4 of a heart bullshit) and less health items.

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

Soul Calibur II!

 

[SantaC]

Heh, good point.

I have an idea for deeper swordfighting in TLOZ. Man, if I ever got the chance to direct a Zelda game, I'd make sure it's the best Zelda ever...

Of course, that'd never happen because I'm a white guy who doesn't understand Japanese.

You are not the only one thinking that

 

[Jonnyboy117]

I'll give Adventure of Link a slight nod over Wind Waker, but the problem is, that's the only great thing about Adventure of Link. Otherwise, I pretty much hate the game.

 

[ge-man]

Soul Calibur II!

I'm think Soul Calibur 2 is nice model for where I feel Zelda needs to go now. Make jumping and parry manual and make the enemies more concious of their positioning.

 

[FortNinety]

I also vote for WW. I can't recall another game where I enjoyed the fighting so much that I simply too my time and toyed around with the enemy when in engaging with combat. If the next Zelda game simply keeps what was established in WW and not change a thing and just add more enemies, I'll be heaven.

 

[psycho_snake]

Zelda: WW had the best sword fighting in any game I have seen before. You never got bored of fighting. It was a very fluid and simple battle system with some of the best animation I've seen. I just hope Zelda GC can do what WW with realistic graphics, it would be so fucking amazing.

 

[psycho_snake]

I'll get stoned for this, but maybe the lock-on system has to go. For one-on-one Stalfos fights it works well, but how are you ever gonna fight multiple enemies all attacking from each sides, each needing precise swipes and blocks with the right timing?

thats why WW was so good. It had the option to hold down the L button instead of just pressing it once to lock on, it made fighting so much better and easier

 

[belgurdo]

Sadly, I think that WW has the deepest fighting, with all of the countering and multiple weapons and whatnot. Shame it's all wasted on the (non) difficulty.

Seeing as how the combat in WW was so good, I hope they tone down the emphasis on item use and give jumping and body movement (i.e., crouching, rolling, etc.) their own buttons again to make it even more complex

 

[psycho_snake]

I do have to admit that the only problem with the battle system in WW. The emnemies were too easy. they could have made it perfect if it was harder. I remember there was one part in the game that was really hard. It was in a hole on outset island and you have to defeat all the enemies to go further and on each floor there are more enemies. There are over 40 layers and its actually pretty challenging, especially without anything to heal yourself. it also proves to you how great the battle system is and how different weapons help you in different battles.

 

[Kuramu]

AoL. The thing that sticks out in my mind the most were those fights with the red and blue knights, who would attack high and low, and you had to match with the shield to block. very hard to find an opening to get your sword in there. great fights, those

 

[Scalemail Ted]

I do have to admit that the only problem with the battle system in WW. The emnemies were too easy. they could have made it perfect if it was harder. I remember there was one part in the game that was really hard. It was in a hole on outset island and you have to defeat all the enemies to go further and on each floor there are more enemies. There are over 40 layers and its actually pretty challenging, especially without anything to heal yourself. it also proves to you how great the battle system is and how different weapons help you in different battles.

Thats was my favorite part of the entire game. Nitendo really just needs to focus on making the game a bit harder. If they want it to be easy for the tykes then give us a difficulty setting, or repeat the difiiculty system of the original LOZ.

 

[TekunoRobby]

Here is the problem: AoL has a simpler combat engine but is much more difficult (thus more rewarding) and WW features a far more robust combat engine but is pathetically easy at times.

 

[Mejilan]

Bah, the Darknut battles in AoL were totally wasted once you realized the short hop + head-level chop could kill them in 3 seconds.

And yes, the Outset Island dark labyrinth arena thing rocked. Hard. Particularly if you went to the very deepest, optional levels.

 

[jarrod]

I didn't say it makes them invalid, I said that the only difference between the attacks in terms of height is aesthetic because the enemies cover their whole body when they block.

Similarly though, they only have two block positions in AoL... you're 5 Vs 1 comparsion is off base if you apply the same thinking both directions.

You don't need to get patronising, I know how to play the damn game. For the third time: I am talking about sword-fighting.

Well unlike AoL, TWW takes combat past just sword fighting. I can see why you might wish to simply discount that in a debate though.

Then we're agreed.

More or less. AoL has the more diffuclt engine while TWW has the more complex one.

 

[human5892]

I'll give Adventure of Link a slight nod over Wind Waker, but the problem is, that's the only great thing about Adventure of Link. Otherwise, I pretty much hate the game.

IAWTP. AoL is the sword-fighting winner, but otherwise it's definitely the black sheep in the series. Semi-random battles on the overworld map in a Zelda game is just wrong.

 

[Prine]

WW battle system was horrible, far too simplistic and unsatisfying. I tried my hardest to avoid battles. Worst part of WW IMO.