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Thom Yorke breaks silence on controversy over Radiohead playing in Israel

U

uncelestial

Member
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/thom-yorke-breaks-silence-on-israel-controversy-w485142

The backstory:

It's well over a month until Radiohead wrap up their 2017 A Moon Shaped Pool Tour at Park Hayarkon in Tel Aviv, Israel on July 19th, but it's already shaping up to be the most controversial show of their career. They've performed in Israel eight times – most recently in the summer of 2000 – but this is the first time they've visited the country since the BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) movement began in 2005.

The movement calls for a complete cultural boycott of Israel until Palestinians are granted the "right of return" and Israel's West Bank barrier is dismantled. It has caused everyone from Elvis Costello to Devendra Banhart to Gorillaz to cancel planned concerts in the country, though many others have ignored it.

On April 23rd, over 50 prominent figures, including Roger Waters, Desmond Tutu, Thurston Moore and TV on the Radio's Tunde Adebimpe, signed a petition urging Radiohead to cancel the show.
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Some of Thom's response:

I'll be totally honest with you: this has been extremely upsetting. There's an awful lot of people who don't agree with the BDS movement, including us. I don't agree with the cultural ban at all, along with J.K. Rowling, Noam Chomsky and a long list of others.

...

The university thing is more of a head fuck for me. It's like, really? You can't go talk to other people who want to learn stuff in another country? Really? The one place where you need to be free to express everything you possibly can. You want to tell these people you can't do that? And you think that's gonna help?

The person who knows most about these things is [Radiohead guitarist] Jonny [Greenwood]. He has both Palestinian and Israeli friends and a wife who's an Arab Jew. All these people to stand there at a distance throwing stuff at us, waving flags, saying, "You don't know anything about it!" Imagine how offensive that is for Jonny. And imagine how upsetting that it's been to have this out there. Just to assume that we know nothing about this. Just to throw the word "apartheid" around and think that's enough. It's fucking weird. It's such an extraordinary waste of energy. Energy that could be used in a more positive way.

This is the first time I've said anything about it. Part of me wants to say nothing because anything I say cooks up a fire from embers. But at the same time, if you want me to be honest, yeah, it's really upsetting that artists I respect think we are not capable of making a moral decision ourselves after all these years. They talk down to us and I just find it mind-boggling that they think they have the right to do that.
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I personally agree with BDS and disagree with Radiohead on this, as much of a fan as I am of theirs. It seems very obvious to me that Israel does not believe that Palestine has a right to exist. They refuse to recognize their statehood and have been building settlements and encroaching ever since Israel was created in the 40s. Responding to their violent apartheid and imperialism with non-violent economic protest makes a lot of sense to me.

israel-palestine_map_19225_2469.jpg
Click to expand...
 
D

Derwind

Member
I get him not really caring for BDS but does he really think people are just "throwing" around the word Aparthied as if it doesnt apply here?

What a weird stance to take.
 
D

dcdobson

Member
Aaronology said:
It's amazing how tone deaf that comment of his was. It's 2017 and we still have earnest usages of "some of my best friends are..."
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I don't think he was implying what you think he was implying. He was simply saying it's a bit silly to assume the band knows nothing about the issue, given the company they keep. He never says this precludes them from having a biased perspective.
 
Squirrel Killer

Squirrel Killer

Member
Aaronology said:
It's amazing how tone deaf that comment of his was. It's 2017 and we still have earnest usages of "some of my best friends are..."
Click to expand...
He's not using it as a defense of their actions, he's using it as a rebuttal of the assumption that they don't know anything about the situation.

ModernBoxes said:
Radiohead avoiding Israel only hurts people and fans. Let them make their own decisions on where to play.
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That's kind of the point behind BDS.
 
P

PillarEN

Member
Placebo play in Russia even though their band features a gay man and bisexual man. If you're comfortable doing that (and I'd say it's pretty scary if you are that minority) and want to connect with the people that care for your music even in oppressive nations then go for it.
 
N

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
I always find it funny some are so against Israel in the conflict, especially living in America where we stole the land outright and put people reservations trying to tell Israel and Palestine how they should deal with their issues.

I'm not happy with a lot of Israel's actions, but they aren't the only one causing conflict in that area. They actively have countries surrounding them who would kill everyone in the country if they thought they had the means or ability to get away with it.

On the topic of Thom's remarks, he has every right to play there for his fans. People acting like BDS is a good strategy that has an effect other than trying to deprive honest citizens of Israel are misleading themselves.
 
K

KingK

Member
Radiohead is probably my favorite band, but I'm a little disappointed about this. Israel is absolutely guilty of apartheid and I support BDS. There are definitely some anti-semites that I would love to purge from the BDS movement though.
 
G

GameAddict411

Member
NervousXtian said:
I always find it funny some are so against Israel in the conflict, especially living in America where we stole the land outright and put people reservations trying to tell Israel and Palestine how they should deal with their issues.

I'm not happy with a lot of Israel's actions, but they aren't the only one causing conflict in that area. They actively have countries surrounding them who would kill everyone in the country if they thought they had the means or ability to get away with it.

On the topic of Thom's remarks, he has every right to play there for his fans. People acting like BDS is a good strategy that has an effect other than trying to deprive honest citizens of Israel are misleading themselves.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Israel is not causing the conflict here. Just pure bullshit. Just look how much abuse the Israel government have done since it's inception. Just look how much land they keep steeling every fucking year. That's not causing a conflict right?
 
N

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
GameAddict411 said:
Yeah, Israel is not causing the conflict here. Just pure bullshit. Just look how much abuse the Israel government have done since it's inception. Just look how much land they keep steeling every fucking year. That's not causing a conflict right?
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Never said they were innocent, but you simplify things way more than is actually true.
 
N

nynt9

Member
Instead of boycotting Israel, he should go there, play, and then make a statement about the occupation. That's the best way to change minds. Not going there doesn't achieve anything.
 
F

Fuchsdh

Member
Squirrel Killer said:
He's not using it as a defense of their actions, he's using it as a rebuttal of the assumption that they don't know anything about the situation.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but it's still stupid. Having ___ friends doesn't actually directly correlate to knowing anything about anything. Some of my best friends of physicists, and I still don't understand string theory.

That said, I really don't know how effective the BDS tactics are. There's still arguments about whether that component was really that effective in ending apartheid in South Africa versus the national economic sanctions.
 
O

old manatee

Banned
Nah Radiohead can play in whatever country they want in my opinion. All of the problems we are facing and people are signing petitions to stop them from playing music. 0_0
 
T

thespot84

Member
This thread seems masturbatory, par for the course for this issue on GAF.

BDS is an anti-israel movement, plain and simple. If you take the demands at face value, specifically the right of return, the logical outcome is the dismantling of any semblance of israel or a jewish state.

You can be against settlements (I am), against collective punishment (I am), for a two state solution (I am) and still be fervently against BDS (I am). As for the earlier post, I am a liberal who does not agree with BDS.

I will let Norm Finkelstein, a rabid critic of israeli policy, put a finer point on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iggdO7C70P8

If you accept that BDS taken to its logical conclusion precludes the existance of israel and still support it, then by all means, voice that opinion loud and clear, it's your right. I have yet to see someone with the balls.

NervousXtian said:
Never said they were innocent, but you simplify things way more than is actually true.
Click to expand...

Haven't you learned already that nuance is not allowed in this debate?
 
C

CartridgeBlower

Member
Fuchsdh said:
Yeah, but it's still stupid. Having ___ friends doesn't actually directly correlate to knowing anything about anything. Some of my best friends of physicists, and I still don't understand string theory.

That said, I really don't know how effective the BDS tactics are. There's still arguments about whether that component was really that effective in ending apartheid in South Africa versus the national economic sanctions.
Click to expand...

It can, though. That's kinda his whole point. We don't know as much as we think about these people or their relationships in general, i.e. how close they are as friends, if they talk about it a lot or very little, how informed they are or aren't.

Just like Yorke is saying, we should probably all stop assuming, one way or the other.
 
T

Transhuman

Unconfirmed Member
nynt9 said:
Instead of boycotting Israel, he should go there, play, and then make a statement about the occupation. That's the best way to change minds. Not going there doesn't achieve anything.
Click to expand...

What if Bibi is a huge Radiohead fan and was days away from agreeing to a two-state solution before this happened
 
K

Kisaya

Member
Radiohead has the right to play anywhere, but it's pretty shitty to say that people are just "throwing" the word apartheid. Tell that to the millions of Palestinians displaced and currently in occupation. The denial is real.

Thom Yorke can fuck off and stay at keeping his mouth shut.
 
O

old manatee

Banned
But it's cool if they play in the US, right? Despite Donald Trump and the Republican menace being a danger to the entire world. Seems like a convenient line to draw. Pretty amazing that people like Thurston Moore think we still have any kind of moral high ground at this point.
 
I

Imm0rt4l

Member
Just "throwing" around the word apartheid....how about with Ethnic cleansing? Folks still falling on that "some of my best friends are ____" defense?
 
P

Palette Swap

Member
Punishing people in Tel Aviv for Likud's policy seems a bit short sighted IMO.
If you want to achieve political results, I'm unsure it's effective to throw opponents of your adversaries under the bus.
 
K

KingK

Member
thespot84 said:
This thread seems masturbatory, par for the course for this issue on GAF.

BDS is an anti-israel movement, plain and simple. If you take the demands at face value, specifically the right of return, the logical outcome is the dismantling of any semblance of israel or a jewish state.

You can be against settlements (I am), against collective punishment (I am), for a two state solution (I am) and still be fervently against BDS (I am). As for the earlier post, I am a liberal who does not agree with BDS.

I will let Norm Finkelstein, a rabid critic of israeli policy, put a finer point on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iggdO7C70P8

If you accept that BDS taken to its logical conclusion precludes the existance of israel and still support it, then by all means, voice that opinion loud and clear, it's your right. I have yet to see someone with the balls.



Haven't you learned already that nuance is not allowed in this debate?
Click to expand...
I find the idea of a state with the sole purpose of maintaining a single ethnic majority at all costs to be pretty disgusting, tbh. I completely understand and can sympathize with the historical circumstances that lead to the idea of a Jewish State, and that's the main reason it's tricky and not so black and white. The ends do not justify the means, however. I don't even find the ends (a Jewish State) to be anything more than an arguably justifiable evil (which I would argue is exponentially less justifiable today than in 1946).

The two state solution is dead and has been for years. I support a single state with equal rights and citizenship for all.
 
N

norm9

Member
The Exploder said:
But it's cool if they play in the US, right? Despite Donald Trump and the Republican menace being a danger to the entire world. Seems like a convenient line to draw.
Click to expand...

I would find it understandable as it's a large country and a large majority are against the policies of Trump and his ilk. And while our country has much to do to bring equality to our masses, we aren't doing what Israel is doing.

fake edit- This fool finds it "upsetting" people are questioning their plans to play. foh.
 
E

ECC

Member
uncelestial said:
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/thom-yorke-breaks-silence-on-israel-controversy-w485142

The backstory:



Some of Thom's response:



I personally agree with BDS and disagree with Radiohead on this, as much of a fan as I am of theirs. It seems very obvious to me that Israel does not believe that Palestine has a right to exist. They refuse to recognize their statehood and have been building settlements and encroaching ever since Israel was created in the 40s. Responding to their violent apartheid and imperialism with non-violent economic protest makes a lot of sense to me.
Click to expand...

Since you included that map I assume that you want to discuss it? The map while widespread is not exactly honest communication. I understand the sentiment behind it just fine - but that does not make it a honest representation of the facts. If you absolutely want to discuss these merits based on land I suggest that you include (at least) two additional panels in which Palestine is removed and replaced with the Osmanic empire and the British mandate. Secondarily a better distinction between borders and ceasefire
Lines would be of some value too - considering that the 1967 line as far as i know didn't establish a border. You should also consider adding in the Israeli expansion in to Golan.

Additional issues:
1. Map one does not illustrate land owned by Palestinians. The majority of this land was state owned, which means that prior to the Brits leaving it was British controlled, or Ottoman (Turkish).

3. Map lacks a demarcation of Jerusalem being neither - (was supposed to be international).

4. Map is hilarious considering that the Gaza strip should be labeled Egypt and the west bank should be labeled Jordan.

5. Map is plain wrong. It should be completely blue and include all of Sinai.

Between map 5 and 6 you need additional maps for creating the Palestinian selv governing area and Israel leaving the Gaza strip.
 
U

uncelestial

Member
thespot84 said:
This thread seems masturbatory, par for the course for this issue on GAF.

BDS is an anti-israel movement, plain and simple. If you take the demands at face value, specifically the right of return, the logical outcome is the dismantling of any semblance of israel or a jewish state.

You can be against settlements (I am), against collective punishment (I am), for a two state solution (I am) and still be fervently against BDS (I am). As for the earlier post, I am a liberal who does not agree with BDS.

I will let Norm Finkelstein, a rabid critic of israeli policy, put a finer point on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iggdO7C70P8

If you accept that BDS taken to its logical conclusion precludes the existance of israel and still support it, then by all means, voice that opinion loud and clear, it's your right. I have yet to see someone with the balls.
Click to expand...
Shameful. Yes, BDS is calling for the "right of return" of Palestinian refugees into the areas of Israel that they were expelled from in 1948. This right is supposed to be one of the conditions for Israel being part of the UN (resolution 194) but they flaunt it to this day and deny them. Yes, it would affect the makeup of Israel to allow more multiculturalism, yes it would be difficult to integrate these people and make room for them, but that's not "precluding the existence of Israel."

The two state solution is impractical and as far as I'm concerned, a failed idea. We're going to all have to learn how to live together. Relegating an entire population of native people into tiny strips of land and slowly encroaching on it, denying their statehood, not allowing them to have a military (which is a direct route to civilians being violent and taking matters into their own hands), and denying their free movement in an area that surrounds them on all sides is apartheid. It's not working.

If anyone reading wants to educate themselves: https://bdsmovement.net/news/bds-and-right-return
 
O

old manatee

Banned
norm9 said:
I would find it understandable as it's a large country and a large majority are against the policies of Trump and his ilk. And while our country has much to do to bring equality to our masses, we aren't doing what Israel is doing.

fake edit- This fool finds it "upsetting" people are questioning their plans to play. foh.
Click to expand...



Tell that to the Native Americans protesting the oil pipeline. The people of Flint without water. The people in Muslim countries that are the target of the travel ban. The victims of police brutality. The women who's reproductive rights are constantly under attack. People who are being denied access to basic rights like use of a public bathroom.

It's fucking hilarious to me that musicians from the US are trying to tell a British band where exactly on the planet Earth it is politically correct to play Airbag.
 
U

uncelestial

Member
ECC said:
4. Map is hilarious considering that the Gaza strip should be labeled Egypt and the west bank should be labeled Jordan.
Click to expand...

What in god's name are you babbling about? Gaza and West Bank are Palestinian land and its people are Palestinians. Gaza kicked out Egypt in 1967. Jordan was kicked out of the West Bank by Israel that same year. The rest of your post is just straight up denialism of Palestine, which I feel no interest in discussing. But this is particularly weird.
 
S

Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew

Banned
"The person who knows most about these things is [Radiohead guitarist] Jonny [Greenwood]. He has both Palestinian and Israeli friends and a wife who's an Arab Jew."


I'm sorry, Thom, but I can't believe you're using the "I got BLACK/WHITE/BROWN/ARAB friends!" excuse.

Shit. Conflicted.
 
Oppo

Oppo

Member
I do want to respect their/his opinion. But the bit about being "talked down to" does sort of reveal a bit of ego. I'm pretty sure they're just trying to convince you, Thom.
 
D

Dai101

Banned
uncelestial said:
What in god's name are you babbling about? Gaza is Palestinian land and its people are Palestinians. They kicked out Egypt in 1967. The rest of your post is just straight up denialism of Palestine, which I feel no interest in discussing. But this is particularly weird.
Click to expand...

Hasbara 101: Deny Palestine ever existed.
 
H

hank_tree

Member
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew said:
"The person who knows most about these things is [Radiohead guitarist] Jonny [Greenwood]. He has both Palestinian and Israeli friends and a wife who's an Arab Jew."


I'm sorry, Thom, but I can't believe you're using the "I got BLACK/WHITE/BROWN/ARAB friends!" excuse.

Shit. Conflicted.
Click to expand...

He's not using it as an excuse. He's just giving context.

Totally different from someone saying "I can say [x] because I have friends who are [y].
 
K

King_Moc

Banned
He's wrong as fuck still, unfortunately. He's providing them tax dollars, just like the USA is, to continue to attempt to snuff out the nation of Palestine.
 
C

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
If you support Radiohead avoiding Israel but are simultaneously silent on musicians holding concerts in, say, Saudi Arabia, China, Russia, or Indonesia, you have no moral consistency with your position.
 
P

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
Dai101 said:
Hasbara 101: Deny Palestine ever existed.
Click to expand...

It was never a country though. The map is very misleading and certainly not broken down by land owned or even population densities. For instance take a look at the census data for Jerusalem and the break down between Jews, Muslims and Christians during those years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusalem

Jews have been the majority since at least the 1880s yet it's claimed by both sides and a huge part of the difficulties with the two state solution. But looking at that map you would think it was all Palestinian land.
 
D

Deserted Maniac Island

Member
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew said:
"The person who knows most about these things is [Radiohead guitarist] Jonny [Greenwood]. He has both Palestinian and Israeli friends and a wife who's an Arab Jew."


I'm sorry, Thom, but I can't believe you're using the "I got BLACK/WHITE/BROWN/ARAB friends!" excuse.

Shit. Conflicted.
Click to expand...

As someone who is Arabic, that's not what I understood from that sentence. Thom is not saying: "We have Arabic/Jewish/Brown friends that think it's okay to perform," but saying that they are not ignorant about these issues because they have talked to people from the region, who have experienced what people are talking about theoretically. Whether or not you agree with Thom, knowing and talking to people familiar with different regions of the world is an important resource in expanding ones knowledge about the world in general. Compare people who have lived amongst people of colour and people who haven't, there is stark difference in the way they understand issues of discrimination and racism.

You do not have to agree with what Thom is saying, but misconstruing his statement does not lead to productive conversation.
 
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