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[Cømet]

Who's "they"? Your issue here is you're taking this amorphous movement that currently doesn't have any leaders and judging it by the actions of a few. Essentially you're saying no one derserves to be heard because a few folks broke some windows and brandished knives. You're saying that the police should continue to murder unarmed poc with impunity because some rioted as a consequence of it and we can't have that.

The problem here is that the actions of a radical few will infect and spoil the intentions of the honest majority, as it often does.

No honest person condones what these police forces do, but many will fail to realise what the movement is about when innocents are attacked/murdered/etc.

Not that that is smart either, but hell you can't argue that this behaviour helps the cause in any way. Come on now, you know what people are like. A person is smart, people are stupid and easily scared etc

 

[Jpop]

.

.

It would help if you read the whole sentence.

"A largely peaceful protest over the death of Freddie Gray, a 25-year-old black man who suffered a spinal cord injury in police custody, gave way to scattered scenes of chaos here on Saturday night,"

 

[TonberrysKnife]

I will say this last thing though.

Recently, there have been a few murders in Baltimore. A 3 year old was gunned down in a drive by shooting. No protests for her.

5 people shoot in broad daylight at the same time. No protests or outrage there.

A drug dealer dies within police custody. No one knows how he died. I haven't heard a single thing about an autopsy, investigation or anything. Everyone comes out of the woodwork and starts protesting.

I left Baltimore to escape the violence. I have no regrets.

 

[GK86]

"Knives", even though we have one picture of a guy pulling a knife.

Then saying the message is lost, because of one night, where some people ("The trouble began when a group of protesters, as many as 100 by some accounts, split from the main group near the end of the protest and went on a rampage ") decide to smash windows, pick fights, etc.

And even though, "Daily protests have swept across the city since Mr. Gray died last Sunday, but Saturday’s turnout was among the largest."

 

[TonberrysKnife]

i might not go to otakon this year.

I'm not going either. Mainly because it's between $80-$100 to register this year. In the 12 years of me going, I can't justify the cost anymore.

 

[Infinite]

All I see is a "Black Lives Matter' guy, brandishing a knife, trying to kill a white person, while another black person is being supported by a white person to not rush out and kill that particular black person.

Baltimore.



Nope. Not saying that.

Brandished knifes? Attempted murder sounds better. But, this is your narrative now...

What are you saying then? I don't like to see this happen either. It breaks my heart but I also don't like to see people be systematically murdered by the police. It's a cause and effect situation that occurring here; the rioting is a direct consequence of what's been happening to us for generations. Not recognizing this severely damages your perspective on the matter. No one is defending or excusing the behavior seen but understanding what will drive a man to that point is key in divising a solution.

 

[Merc_]

The problem here is that the actions of a radical few will infect and spoil the intentions of the honest majority, as it often does.

No honest person condones what these police forces do, but many will fail to realise what the movement is about when innocents are attacked/murdered/etc.

Not that that is smart either, but hell you can't argue that this behaviour helps the cause in any way. Come on now, you know what people are like...

It sure doesn't, that's true. Let's be honest though, many of the people who use the actions of a few to paint the whole group had no real interest in listening to the original point in the first place.

 

[RyanDG]

Not necessarily. That's what sometimes happens when people get oppressed, frustrated, angry and disenfranchised enough. That anger manifests in to hatred and rage, that can sometimes consume one's morality and lead to such conduct. It's always important to look at the deeper root causes for such behaviour, or what may be fuelling it.

If this institutionalised racism, police state esque brutality, abuse of powers and lack of accountability keeps up, shit is only going to get more messy, and more violent. The reality is reform just isn't happening, and things just aren't changing. Not nearly quick enough anyway. If anything it's getting worse, despite the new spotlighting on it all.

For people outside looking in though, what they are seeing is aggression towards people who are for all intents and purposes innocent. Regardless of the underlying motivations and the causes (which I agree are important to address and are getting worse), the truth of the matter is, this sort of action does not drive up support for a cause in any meaningful way. Instead, I would argue it does the opposite. Causes people who may be on the fence to be pushed over to the other side, seeing that they are being exposed now only to the frustration since (like it or not), they have never been targetted by systemic institutionalized racism.

 

[nib95]

I will say this last thing though.

Recently, there have been a few murders in Baltimore. A 3 year old was gunned down in a drive by shooting. No protests for her.

5 people shoot in broad daylight at the same time. No protests or outrage there.

A drug dealer dies within police custody. No one knows how he died. I haven't heard a single thing about an autopsy, investigation or anything. Everyone comes out of the woodwork and starts protesting.

I left Baltimore to escape the violence. I have no regrets.

Are you saying people should expect the same level of tact and responsibility from police officers as they should criminals and gangsters?

 

[GoonerTRON]

"Knives", even though we have one picture of a guy pulling a knife.

Then saying the message is lost, because of one night, where some people ("The trouble began when a group of protesters, as many as 100 by some accounts, split from the main group near the end of the protest and went on a rampage ") decide to smash windows, pick fights, etc.

And even though, "Daily protests have swept across the city since Mr. Gray died last Sunday, but Saturday’s turnout was among the largest."

There are always the selfish few who just protest to cause trouble and steal. The world is behind the real protestors, the violence of American Police is unacceptable.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

its not like this protest was going to change anything anyway, people only notice the rioters and forget about the police killing someone.

next time it happens people will protest a police killing and some people will riot and people will point out the rioters again and again.

 

[Sanjuro]

What are you saying then? I don't like to see this happen either. It breaks my heart but I also don't like to see people be systematically murdered by the police. It's a cause and effect situation that occurring here; the rioting is a direct consequence of what's been happening to us for generations. Not recognizing this severely damages your perspective on the matter. No one is defending or excusing the behavior seen but understanding what will drive a man to that point is key in divising a solution.

Sounds like you are emotional and latching on to posts you shouldn't then.

I'm sure the overall message sucks, but this is worse. Find better ways of speading word.

 

[Cømet]

It sure doesn't, that's true. Let's be honest though, many of the people who use the actions of a few to paint the whole group had no real interest in listening to the original point in the first place.

I couldn't stand behind that. I like to think we're quite well informed and intelligent here. The general public is not so savvy, and fear is the quickest plague to spread. Of course there will be people who abuse these actions for their own intent, there always will be. Perpetrators of fear and hatred who hate certain folks. There are silly people, and their are hateful people.


I wish our ilk were more populous, these issues wouldn't exist in such numbers if at all.



EDIT: I may have missed your point, but I feel the above is still valid so I'll leave it.


Yeah I'm with you, I'm confident in saying that essentially the entirety of those that would abuse these events for their own ends would be those looking to demonise a specific group. It's disgusting behaviour and I'm pretty appalled it still exists. I've never had the misfortune of experiencing it here in the UK, it astounds me it's so populous in the US. Of course I'm of the "privileged" here that attended university so no-one I speak to would be so vulgar/backwards. Here, at least amongst my ilk, there are no lines between race and/or origin. We all love to learn and party! If only the world could be the same...

 

[Merc_]

"Knives", even though we have one picture of a guy pulling a knife.

Then saying the message is lost, because of one night, where some people ("The trouble began when a group of protesters, as many as 100 by some accounts, split from the main group near the end of the protest and went on a rampage ") decide to smash windows, pick fights, etc.

And even though, "Daily protests have swept across the city since Mr. Gray died last Sunday, but Saturday’s turnout was among the largest."

Keep in mind that a few of the people posting about the "message being lost" had not posted in this thread once before those pictures started being posted. That should give you some insight into what happening here.

 

[cameron]

I will say this last thing though.

Recently, there have been a few murders in Baltimore. A 3 year old was gunned down in a drive by shooting. No protests for her.

5 people shoot in broad daylight at the same time. No protests or outrage there.

A drug dealer dies within police custody. No one knows how he died. I haven't heard a single thing about an autopsy, investigation or anything. Everyone comes out of the woodwork and starts protesting.

I left Baltimore to escape the violence. I have no regrets.

What's there to protest with random citizens killing random citizens?

 

[Sanjuro]

Keep in mind that a few of the people posting about the "message being lost" had not posted in this thread once before those pictures started being posted. That should give you some insight into what happening here.

Your message is fucking lost, for now.

This is sick.

 

[Storm Raider]

Everyone just needs to chill and rethink their lives.

 

[nib95]

For people outside looking in though, what they are seeing is aggression towards people who are for all intents and purposes innocent. Regardless of the underlying motivations and the causes (which I agree are important to address and are getting worse), the truth of the matter is, this sort of action does not drive up support for a cause in any meaningful way. Instead, I would argue it does the opposite. Causes people who may be on the fence to be pushed over to the other side, seeing that they are being exposed now only to the frustration since (like it or not), they have never been targetted by systemic institutionalized racism.

I understand what you are saying, and I do completely agree. In an ideal world we wouldn't have those who are so unstable to the point of taking out their anger on innocents, they are themselves essentially then criminals, and a detriment to the cause, but the reality is, If white people (police officers, people like Zimmerman, racists etc) essentially keep getting away with murdering, incarcerating, abusing and disgracing innocent black people en masse, there was always going to be a possibility that some black people would simply snap, and possibly even react in kind. I am personally astonished things aren't far more divisive and violent than they actually are, given the sheer scale of the issues.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Keep in mind that a few of the people posting about the "message being lost" had not posted in this thread once before those pictures started being posted. That should give you some insight into what happening here.

well I was going to post in this thread but I would hate to be labeled a low key racist for doing so.

 

[TonberrysKnife]

Are you saying people should expect the same level of tact and responsibility from police officers as they should criminals and gangsters?

What I am getting at is that if a community is to get stronger, then everyone should bond together when anything like this happens. Protest the murders of the innocent and the violence of the city; not just suspected brutality.

 

[Merc_]

I couldn't stand behind that. I like to think we're quite well informed and intelligent here. The general public is not so savvy, and fear is the quickest plague to spread. Of course there will be people who abuse these actions for their own intent, there always will be. Perpetrators of fear and hatred who hate certain folks. There are silly people, and their are hateful people.


I wish our ilk were more populous, these issues wouldn't exist in such numbers if at all.

I dunno man. We've had quite a number of people here that do the same thing, informed or not. I believe that even if the violence were targeted at the source, people would still use it as an excuse not to talk about race and our police force.

 

[TonberrysKnife]

What's there to protest with random citizens killing random citizens?

Stop the violence.

I'm abandoning this thread. I'm just going to read the comments from here on out.

 

[nib95]

What I am getting at is that if a community is to get stronger, then everyone should bond together when anything like this happens. Protest the murders of the innocent and the violence of the city; not just suspected brutality.

There already are tonnes of movements, charities etc that are related to, or cover such things, but they are still not even in the same stratosphere of relatability as the root issues here. The expectations people have of gangsters and criminals, thankfully are not the same as those they have for the public servants hired to serve and protect them. The former is often a by product of socio economic issues, the latter institutionalised racism. Two completely different things, with completely different motivations. Hell, the level of institutionalised racism within policing, the monetised and often for profit economics of the prison system, and the insane number of incarcerations of black people, actually has an impact on, and increases the potential of gang violence and other such issues.

 

[PopeReal]

What I am getting at is that if a community is to get stronger, then everyone should bond together when anything like this happens. Protest the murders of the innocent and the violence of the city; not just suspected brutality.

Holy shit. Since when do protests pop up over murder of civilians by criminals? We all agree they are bad. There is not much to protest.

Are you saying the black community has a responsibility to say that murder is wrong? When has white America had that same responsibility?

 

[Cømet]

It sure doesn't, that's true. Let's be honest though, many of the people who use the actions of a few to paint the whole group had no real interest in listening to the original point in the first place.

I dunno man. We've had quite a number of people here that do the same thing, informed or not. I believe that even if the violence were targeted at the source, people would still use it as an excuse not to talk about race and our police force.

That's an incredibly saddening thing I admit to not having read the whole thread, late to the party and all that, and not having the time to catch up I wish I had. But even so, it disgust me none the less. This is basic morals, how the fuck is one person different to another because of their damn skin colour! Some people are just plain sick, it's usually why I avoid these thread but hey! I've had a few and won't to get involved for a change.

It makes me think of all those threads involving Russian sympathisers (not to steal thunder at all, a mere link reference) and such. Bleh. I would really expect gaffers; a site with such high entry requirements and strict modding, to be more fucking sensible than the general public. But no, eh. Nutters everywhere.

This sort've shit is why I don't trust people I don't know, including the police.


EDIT: This shit genuinely makes me sad. It's unnecessary in its entirety. What happened to being good to each other??

 

[esms]

Holy shit. Since when do protests pop up over murder of civilians by criminals? We all agree they are bad. There is not much to protest.

Are you saying the black community has a responsibility to say that murder is wrong? When has white America had that same responsibility?

My mind is drawing parallels to "all Muslims must denounce terrorism."

 

[commedieu]

Keep in mind that a few of the people posting about the "message being lost" had not posted in this thread once before those pictures started being posted. That should give you some insight into what happening here.

There is a flood of "TOLD YOU SO!!! SEE???" With the idea that protestors, are all a hive mind. The parental advice of "don't do bad things when you protest" is blindingly obvious. So cheerleading around that, or going over and over that point isn't super productive. Idiots ruined it, but protestors, no need for quotes, aren't the ones who are confused about what peaceful protest is, or the difference between rioting and protests.

The fact that so many people are excited to rush in here and paste the picture over and over again is dreadful, as its missing the point still. This situation is violent and out of control due to police killing black people without repercussions. People are understandably angry, and there is no outlet at this point. Instead of understanding that this is a tragic mess, that there are normal protesters, and there are assholes, people are pretending its a god damned NPD thread and their console won.

Its absurd to see so many reveling in the fact that they can double down on your bias with the chaos of this situation. I'm sure it feels good to win an internet argument, and keep your world unchanged. The violence here is a direct response to 100's of years of killing black people. There would be nothing to wag your finger at, if black people weren't being murdered all the time. none of this is getting through to a lot here, its just a time to pretend your team won.

 

[Merc_]

^^^^Yep, exactly.

Your message is fucking lost, for now.

This is sick.

Yeah, we know. You keep saying that.

 

[Slayven]

Your message is fucking lost, for now.

This is sick.

Folks been preaching that Black People are human for the last 200 plus years, and it has beena uphill struggle all the way, but we keep doing it. So no matter how hard you push your suspect agenda, the message will continue.

 

[Cømet]

I'm just gonna delete this bit cos there's no way you could be wrong, surely, and I must have been silly. We all know murder is murder and violence is unacceptable. There's no way you're condoning violence as a way to push a message.

Folks been preaching that Black People are human for the last 200 plus years, and it has beena uphill struggle all the way, but we keep doing it. So no matter how hard you push your suspect agenda, the message will continue.

This is why I shouldn't participate in these discussions. There are no lines for me, people are people regardless of colour. You could be fucking baby blue and all I'd think is "cool!". I don't belong in these discussions, yet I jump in anyway.

 

[Sanjuro]

^^^^Yep, exactly.



Yeah, we know. You keep saying that.

You keep saying things as well. At least we are on par in your mind.

 

[nib95]

My mind is drawing parallels to "all Muslims must denounce terrorism."

I would not be surprised if some of those same people who promote such arguments also agree with this like of reasoning.

 

[commedieu]

I don't think you are, but I'm not 100% convinced, that you're not condoning the murder of anyone, regardless of colour, because of any message...

As naive as I am, I'd like to believe that is not your intent here...


This is why I shouldn't participate in these discussions. There are no lines for me, people are people regardless of colour. You could be fucking baby blue and all I'd think is "cool!". I don't belong in these discussions, yet I jump in anyway.

I suggested nothing of the sort. The fact that you just "read" my post, and came to the conclusion that me calling jackasses, idiots, and assholes, means that its, some how, a tacit approval of murder and violence is wrong.

You shouldn't participate because you seem to have the inability to be intellectually honest with your words.


TLDR: I am not condoning murder.

 

[PopeReal]

Your message is fucking lost, for now.

This is sick.

So the message that police shouldn't target and kill black Americans is lost?

It is kind of a moral message. You either are on board or you are not. There is no losing it. If you don't give a shit be a man and say so. I respect someone more who says how they feel and doesn't hide behind false pretenses.

 

[Sanjuro]

So the message that police shouldn't target and kill black Americans is lost?

It is kind of a moral message. You either are on board or you are not. There is no losing it. If you don't give a shit be a man and say so. I respect someone more who says how they feel and doesn't hide behind false pretenses.

The message is police killing black Americans gives way to Americans attempting to kill other Americans.

That is the message Baltimore has delivered the last couple days.

 

[GK86]

The message is police killing black Americans gives way to Americans attempting to kill other Americans.

That is the message Baltimore has delivered the last couple days.

If that is the message you have taken from one night, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Merc_]

The message is police killing black Americans gives way to Americans attempting to kill other Americans.

That is the message Baltimore has delivered the last couple days.

lmao. This is why these situations will continue to happen.

 

[Vicetrailia]

The message is police killing black Americans gives way to Americans attempting to kill other Americans.

That is the message Baltimore has delivered the last couple days.

So the splintered group represents the peaceful protesters as well?

 

[Slayven]

I would not be surprised if some of those same people who promote such arguments also agree with this like of reasoning.

Funny how "the message is lost" only comes up against minorities

 

[commedieu]

lmao. This is why these situations will continue to happen.

Why is it though? What isn't allowing him/her to see how flawed their argument is? What is getting in the way of realizing that this is a unfortunate situation, but it isn't the official message from the Black Congress of the nation...?

 

[Sanjuro]

So the splintered group represents the peaceful protesters as well?

Nope. I never said the original message is lost. It just wasn't delivered. I'm quite aware of what actually happened, it's just not the reality the masses are being delivered.

If that is the message you have taken from one night, then I don't know what to tell you.

lmao. This is why these situations will continue to happen.

I'd say you both are more unrealistic than you believe me to be then.

 

[Cømet]

I suggested nothing of the sort. The fact that you just "read" my post, and came to the conclusion that me calling jackasses, idiots, and assholes, means that its, some how, a tacit approval of murder and violence is wrong.

You shouldn't participate because you seem to have the inability to be intellectually honest with your words.


TLDR: I am not condoning murder.

Uh okay...

I guess you missed my edit after I understood your intention.

(Way to be an arse about it)

 

[KingK]

Guys, there's a difference between understanding and supporting something. I can understand a Pakistani kid who's family was killed in a US drone strike and who's people more broadly have suffered negative repercussions of colonialism for generations growing up to be an asshole joining a terrorist group to fight the West. I don't support it, but i understand. I also don't use a few assholes to assume that all Pakistanis are terrorists out to kill Americans.

My mind is drawing parallels to "all Muslims must denounce terrorism."

Exactly what i was just thinking.

 

[nib95]

The message is police killing black Americans gives way to Americans attempting to kill other Americans.

That is the message Baltimore has delivered the last couple days.

Well that's one way to look at it.

I take the message as mass institutionalised racism within the legal, policing and prison systems in the US, is resulting in the deaths, murders and incarcerations of an appallingly shocking number of black Americans (so many of whom are innocent) to such extremes, that thousands are continuously protesting against it. And that some black people are feeling so disenfranchised and ignored, that tiny pockets of protestors within much larger groups, are disappointingly and disturbingly turning their anger and frustration to violence towards other innocent people.

 

[RyanDG]

Regardless of anything else, I think its fair to say that in general, this country is a country of apathy. The majority of people may believe one way or another on an issue, but when push comes to shove, very rarely do you actually see legitimate work done to support a view or a cause from the majority of Americans if that work requires effort on their part. I know people have been quick to judge people saying: 'the message is lost', as furthering some sort of deep-seeded racist view, so if that's the way you viewed what I said, I apologize. What I was simply trying to suggest is that in a country where people are only interested in the 30 second snippets, unless they have experienced racism themselves, they will not understand the rage of the protesters or those individuals who became violent. They have nothing to relate it to. As a result, if they see violence against someone who is innocent, the first thing that they are going to do is feel sympathy not for the protesters, but for the innocent person that they perceive as being harmed in this case. There are those who will try to take it a step further in order to understand the cause of the violence, but ultimately, I think its fair to say that the number of people who do that will be few and far between. The majority of people will see it at face value and be left with nothing but wondering whether or not there should be a better way, without realizing that people have been trying to find a better way for the last 200 years (or longer). When I was saying the message was lost, what I'm referring to is for the vast majority of Americans who will see this as misdirected violence, and use it as means to justify further inaction.

It's a shame we are in this position in this country. Between the economic and racial divides, some serious changes will have to occur quickly, because the road we are going down is kind of troublesome if we can't find a way to correct institutional wrongs in a timely and effective manner.

 

[Sanjuro]

Well that's one way to look at it.

I take the message as mass institutionalised racism within the legal, policing and prison systems in the US, is resulting in the deaths, murders and incarcerations of an appallingly shocking number of black Americans, to such extremes, that thousands are continuously protesting against it. And that some black people are feeling so disenfranchised and ignored, that tiny pockets of protestors within much larger groups, are disappointingly turning their anger and frustration to violence towards other innocent people.

I wouldn't call attempted murder "disappointingly".

 

[Cømet]

I wouldn't call attempted murder "disappointingly".

Where I stand. Regardless of your standing, NOTHING gives you the right to kill others. End of.

 

[Booshka]

Funny how "the message is lost" only comes up against minorities

Reminds me of this gem from Katrina.

 

[Yaboosh]

Funny how "the message is lost" only comes up against minorities

The Occupy message was lost very quickly though.

 

[nib95]

I wouldn't call attempted murder "disappointingly".

It's deplorable, and disappointing, but at the same time not at all surprising. I am honestly surprised black communities have not already reacted more violently. How they have been so patient, and so accepting of such a rotten and vile system, for so long, is baffling to me. The statistics are breathtakingly shocking and outrageous. I cannot even believe things have been allowed to get where they are. As a non American, it is beyond comprehension.

Where I stand. Regardless of your standing, NOTHING gives you the right to kill others. End of.

And nobody in here is saying it does. Way to completely and utterly miss the point.