It's not like people are demanding ethnically diverse casting in biopics, period pieces, docudramas etc where it might not be appropriate. What angers people is when studios assemble a ensemble cast for their big-budget pop-movie and it's full of white people in all but the most trivial roles.
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Tim Burton on Why 'Miss Peregrine's Home For Peculiar Children' is Mostly White
- Thread starter Tom Nook Sawyer
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Messofanego
Banned
I'm not surprised an emo goth vampire wants to see mainly white people in his films.
WrenchNinja
Member
why is realistic historical demographics important for a fantasy movie about a bunch of freaky kids
It's not. It's an irrelevant point meant to distract.
AtomskEater
Member
I agree that the double standard shouldn't be okay, but according to Hollywood it is. That's the world we live in, so when people say that it's only natural to exclude roles of color from a film because it takes place in certain times and places, regardless of how fantastical the story or characters are, it doesn't fly with me.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Because otherwise there would be non-white kids in the movie
Or white as fuck new york as seen in Friends and Sienfeld, hah.
Dang, it's a bit hard for to explain the genre without the reference.
Messofanego
Banned
And we can't be having that.
Magical shit and werewolves...I can allow this.
Black kids in wales while there is magical shit and monsters...MAH HISTORICAL ACCURACY!
Does this deal with the political climate of the time that would have to address why there is a minority in the story?
No?
Then that argument isn't relevant.
Black kids in wales while there is magical shit and monsters...MAH HISTORICAL ACCURACY!
Does this deal with the political climate of the time that would have to address why there is a minority in the story?
No?
Then that argument isn't relevant.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
What the fuck at that awful answer.
I'm done with Burton now.
I'm done with Burton now.
Steve Youngblood
Member
It's not an altogether satisfying answer, but I think even historical accuracy is at least something that's kind of understandable. Not that it wouldn't merit criticism of its own, but it's leagues better than this bizarre counterpoint about how he as a white person didn't complain about the lack of white people in blaxpoitation films of all things.
You say that, but apparently you can't even make a biopic about Bruce Lee without making the main character a white guy for the audience.
AtomskEater
Member
https://youtu.be/_6eMscT5DAc
Long video but maybe watching a few clips of it will jog your memory, if you've seen any such movies before. I think 90s would have been a bit too late, it was mostly movies made for black people in the 70s, usually based around crime and urban settings. Shaft is a good example.
Skip it and watch Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story
That movie even addressed whitewashing when Lee gets turned down in favor of David Carradine for the lead in the Kung Fu TV series.
White is not and should not be the default. If a role has nothing to do with ethnicity then why must it be a white role?
THAT is shoehornin for the sake of adding an ethnic role to appease group, not making one of the kids black or Spanish.
First thing that came to my mind, why do we need another Bruce Lee movie when Dragon exists?
But then again, hollywood made like 3 steve jobs movies, two of them within months of each other.
Fuck you, Tim.
What a shitty answer.
Why can't they just say, "We don't have black people in this movie because we don't want to have black people in this movie?" Instead of this song and dance, hemming and hawing about it? Trying to justify why you're not casting minorities always comes off as bullshit.
The thing is, there's hardly ever any reason that justifies excluding minorites or women or what have you. I wouldn't even say it's a creative oversight. We've been conditioned to view "white" as the default when it comes to character creation. I say, "Doctor, Lawyer, Banker, Police Officer, Teacher, Priest, President," the image the vast majority of people will see is a white man. I say, "Criminal, Thug, Gangster, Janitor, Con-man, Buffoon, Terrorist" and most people will envision a person of color (black, Mexican, Persian, etc, etc). And most of us in America are guilty of this. I've mentioned it a ton before, but I'm a black man, and an artist and a writer, yet when I used to sit down and conceive of characters to put in my comics and stories, they were overwhelmingly white, with the supporting characters, comic relief, and love interests being people of color.
Once I became aware of my bias, I worked to correct it. Now, I no longer default to white male protagonist (although I still have plenty of those in my stories/comics). I cast a broader net when it comes to "casting" my characters. And it's a lot more fun. I love coming up with a character and saying, "Hey, I think I'll make him Pakistani," or, "I think she'll be Thai, or Black, or Arab," and then it becomes a game of working out their back stories. Where are they from, born in the US or elsewhere? How will that upbringing inform their character? A lot of the times, whole plot lines and character motivations arise because their background isn't just some kind of template.
I'm not saying white male heroes are boring or bland, but when 90% of the entertainment revolves around them and their upbringings, I admit it gets a little old. And besides, from an artists perspective, I have a lot of fun drawing different features from different ethnic backgrounds. I have a folder full of reference of all sorts of people of different body types, and facial features. For me, I feel like it helps makes things feel more textured and real. When there are a lot of different people that make up your world, it feels more believable.
All I get from Hollywood is, "Well, our fantasy is that minorities don't exist unless they're hot "exotic" minority women our white hero can rescue and bang." This notion that being diverse is somehow bad is mind-boggling. You're whining that the people that consume your entertainment would love to be included in the making of said entertainment? Fuck off. Minorities and women are purchasing your products and getting entertainment out of it, but they also aren't too pleased with how they're represented in that product, especially when they are represented so little. It really shouldn't be that hard to grasp the issue.
Tim Burton is an idiot, and probably a racist. But hey, calling a racist a racist is somehow worse than being racist, according to some folks...
What a shitty answer.
Why can't they just say, "We don't have black people in this movie because we don't want to have black people in this movie?" Instead of this song and dance, hemming and hawing about it? Trying to justify why you're not casting minorities always comes off as bullshit.
The thing is, there's hardly ever any reason that justifies excluding minorites or women or what have you. I wouldn't even say it's a creative oversight. We've been conditioned to view "white" as the default when it comes to character creation. I say, "Doctor, Lawyer, Banker, Police Officer, Teacher, Priest, President," the image the vast majority of people will see is a white man. I say, "Criminal, Thug, Gangster, Janitor, Con-man, Buffoon, Terrorist" and most people will envision a person of color (black, Mexican, Persian, etc, etc). And most of us in America are guilty of this. I've mentioned it a ton before, but I'm a black man, and an artist and a writer, yet when I used to sit down and conceive of characters to put in my comics and stories, they were overwhelmingly white, with the supporting characters, comic relief, and love interests being people of color.
Once I became aware of my bias, I worked to correct it. Now, I no longer default to white male protagonist (although I still have plenty of those in my stories/comics). I cast a broader net when it comes to "casting" my characters. And it's a lot more fun. I love coming up with a character and saying, "Hey, I think I'll make him Pakistani," or, "I think she'll be Thai, or Black, or Arab," and then it becomes a game of working out their back stories. Where are they from, born in the US or elsewhere? How will that upbringing inform their character? A lot of the times, whole plot lines and character motivations arise because their background isn't just some kind of template.
I'm not saying white male heroes are boring or bland, but when 90% of the entertainment revolves around them and their upbringings, I admit it gets a little old. And besides, from an artists perspective, I have a lot of fun drawing different features from different ethnic backgrounds. I have a folder full of reference of all sorts of people of different body types, and facial features. For me, I feel like it helps makes things feel more textured and real. When there are a lot of different people that make up your world, it feels more believable.
All I get from Hollywood is, "Well, our fantasy is that minorities don't exist unless they're hot "exotic" minority women our white hero can rescue and bang." This notion that being diverse is somehow bad is mind-boggling. You're whining that the people that consume your entertainment would love to be included in the making of said entertainment? Fuck off. Minorities and women are purchasing your products and getting entertainment out of it, but they also aren't too pleased with how they're represented in that product, especially when they are represented so little. It really shouldn't be that hard to grasp the issue.
Tim Burton is an idiot, and probably a racist. But hey, calling a racist a racist is somehow worse than being racist, according to some folks...
To the people saying it's his movie, he can do what he wants: you're wrong. It's not his movie. It's the company and investors movie, edited and altered in a thousand ways for a thousand reasons, many of which have less to do with art than commerce.
In other words, like all movies, it's a collaborative product created by a collaborative team, ranging from the original writer, all the way down to color correction on the last edit.
More importantly, as a commercial product, it has to survive in the current cultural climate. The people that greenlit it, the producers, the screenwriters, and Burton are ALL responsible for the choices made.
In other words, like all movies, it's a collaborative product created by a collaborative team, ranging from the original writer, all the way down to color correction on the last edit.
More importantly, as a commercial product, it has to survive in the current cultural climate. The people that greenlit it, the producers, the screenwriters, and Burton are ALL responsible for the choices made.
This brings an interesting dumb question to mind.
Are Vampires racist if they don't take non white peoples blood?
Hope I'm using this emoji right kids
Choppasmith
Member
Well that and the fact that it's not like he came up with the story and characters himself either. From some of those "it's his film" posts, it seems to me that people are saying they're his characters he created when they're not.
Messofanego
Banned
It brings a new meaning to white supremacy.
True, but people are criticizing Burton for his quote, not for the lack of POCs in the movie, what you just said is something we all take for granted, we don't need to have it explained, but this is being discused because burton opened his mouth and said something stupid, so now in top of hollywood's collective bias against POC actors, we know that Burton, even if he had the power, wouldn't have gotten more POC actors.
At least the Exodus: Gods and Kings guy did reference the fact that he'd have never gotten the movie greenlit if he had chosen POC actors(not that we believe he'd have), burton just doubled down on not choosing them.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
LiquidSword
Member
"White people have the best blood. The best. Just tremendous blood."
I'm with you. He seems to think blaxploitation films were legitimate representations of black artistry. And what's worse is he isn't speaking from ignorance on the films' content because he says he grew up watching them. So much wrong with this. But I've always assumed he was an arrogant, out-of-touch douche so I'm not really surprised.
As I said, I was addressing those who keep going on about directorial vision, so clearly some people do need it explained.
Mammoth Jones
Member
This right here. The fuck.
Fair enough.
Actually that whole scene does a good job of showing how fraked up white-washing is.
Don't remind me.
Eva, you deserve better. Like me. Call me, my wife is cool with it, I promise!
To this day it still makes me laugh.
eyeball_kid
Member
Another question is why Hollywood continues to greenlight movies based on primarily-white source material. Miss Peregrine was a bestseller in 2011, and it is part of a series, so for a studio looking for a YA blockbuster franchise it probably looked promising. I get that.
But whether Miss Peregrine is a fantastic story or not, there's plenty of stories out there which feature more diverse casts. If people are going to argue for 'accuracy' in their source material, then studios should change the source material they're making films from.
As besada said, the director is just one piece of the studio system, and this bias (towards race and towards gender) runs through it from top to bottom. Are mostly-white stories like Peregrine being chosen with unconscious bias by the studios? Or was it chosen cynically because it's a good, bestselling story that might have legs and has an 'uncontroversial' white cast?
Backing up even further, why is it that the (YA) novels that do well seem to feature mostly white characters? What is going on with readers that they're focusing on these stories? Do publishers share in the unconscious or conscious bias when choosing which books to print and which to promote heavily?
But whether Miss Peregrine is a fantastic story or not, there's plenty of stories out there which feature more diverse casts. If people are going to argue for 'accuracy' in their source material, then studios should change the source material they're making films from.
As besada said, the director is just one piece of the studio system, and this bias (towards race and towards gender) runs through it from top to bottom. Are mostly-white stories like Peregrine being chosen with unconscious bias by the studios? Or was it chosen cynically because it's a good, bestselling story that might have legs and has an 'uncontroversial' white cast?
Backing up even further, why is it that the (YA) novels that do well seem to feature mostly white characters? What is going on with readers that they're focusing on these stories? Do publishers share in the unconscious or conscious bias when choosing which books to print and which to promote heavily?
littlebigman
Member
Goddamn, that's like the most asshole response he could have come up with. Guess I won't be seeing any more of his movies.
lightskintwin
Banned
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/video/video-award-season-roundtable-series-directors-part-2
Look at how silent all the White directors get when Steve Mcqueen talks about how astonished he is about the amount of American directors who have never cast a Black person as a lead or how bizarre it is to shoot a movie in a diverse city like New York and not have have one Black or Latino person cast in it. Then goes on to speak about movie reality (fully whitewashed) and real reality.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
It's not really historical accuracy so much as it is the case that if you say 'person from wales' you are going to default to someone white, because people from wales are almost entirely white. If you set a movie, even a fantasy movie, in say Kenya you are probably going to default to a mainly black cast unless you are specifically going to explain why the cast is not black and explain how they got there and it's probably going to be a big part of the story you are telling.
I doubt anyone who saw Exodus, and saw Weaver and Tucci as the Egyptian royalty can honestly say that having people of obviously anachronistic ethnicity doesn't take you out of a scene. I mean it just looked ridiculous.
nkarafo
Member
It's a bad response alright.
Then again, forced diversity is also bad. Forcing anything that isn't the creator's original vision isn't right IMO. I hope that's what he meant.
To be fair, most Burton's movies have a very strong and specific aesthetic. Sometimes even the white people in them aren't white enough for him. So he makes them look even more pale, like corpses. Maybe it's just an aesthetic thing.
He should have worded a better response than this.
Then again, forced diversity is also bad. Forcing anything that isn't the creator's original vision isn't right IMO. I hope that's what he meant.
To be fair, most Burton's movies have a very strong and specific aesthetic. Sometimes even the white people in them aren't white enough for him. So he makes them look even more pale, like corpses. Maybe it's just an aesthetic thing.
He should have worded a better response than this.
Casting a minority in a role where skin color doesn't have anything to do with the character whatsoever isn't forced diversity.
Yeah, you could tell Sonnenfeld and the actors were having a lot of fun with the sheer absurdity of how far the camp was taking their play and how eager Wednesday was to give them a much-needed reality check.
Hiring actors who happen to be non-white for roles where race isn't specified isn't really forcing anything, no more than laypeople would call it "forcing" that white actors are still way over-represented.
Subsequently, singular creators of mass-market collaborative entertainment works don't fully own their visions and properties. On top of that, vision is a fleeting thing. Whatever is in someone's head at the start of a project is arguably not going to be the thing that's finished, even in a one-person project.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
If it's purely the aesthetic he's after, albino African Americans do exist you know. There really is no excuse.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
What's an example of forced diversity?
nkarafo
Member
Yeah you are right. But maybe, in Tim's case, it's not only about the characters, it's also about the visuals and aesthetics. Having seen many of his movies, it does seem that he has a specific visual style and maybe people of color don't fit in that vision of his. And it does seem that those aesthetics take priority over anything else. Isn't the visuals the main thing Tim is known for?
Or maybe i'm just trying to justify his stupid response because i am a fan of his movies. Sorry for that
Prototype Viktor
Member
Lol it was so bad that towards the end Married with Children spoof it with SevenDuring it last season BB did add a poorly written shoehorned in character. This was him
One of the most hated characters in tv history
Tim Burton's next movie will be set in Atlanta next and have upwards of 1 black person. Progress
That would be slightly more convincing if Samuel L. Jackson wasn't in the movie that's in question.
lightskintwin
Banned
The only Black person in the movie playing the villain may unfortunately still fit into the Burton's visuals and aesthetics argument.
AuthenticM
Member
wow
Oh shit, he's the villain? I thought he was like one of the teachers or something. I didn't think this situation could look any worse.
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