NipplesAndToes23
Member
Fuck Burton now!
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Tim Burton on Why 'Miss Peregrine's Home For Peculiar Children' is Mostly White
- Thread starter Tom Nook Sawyer
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The Last Wizard
Member
It's not ignorance, he knows damn well what he's saying and how he feels.
Poor persecuted white people. It's a real shame there aren't movies where white people can see themselves onscreen.
I bet you haven't written shit.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Does it surprise me that he's not in lock-step with millennial progressive values? No. Does it surprise me that in today's climate he could be so unprepared to address such a question that this is the best response he could muster? Yes. Even if you concede that it's off-the-cuff, it's just amazingly tone deaf.
I understand that sometimes we can be out of touch and assume that popular issues of discussion here are equally as important to everyone else. Some people are very critical that a progressive hivemind dominates conversation here. But I think we are way, way past race relations being an issue that most people can be ignorant of. Even discounting all the Black Lives Matters protests centering around how the legal system treats African Americans, you already noted the Oscars uproar. When this is all going on around you, I think you need to be aware of these concerns and at a bare minimum be prepared to address how these movements are shaping your own work. If they aren't, why? And honestly, I'm not advocating bullying people into seeing things our way. I just think it's reasonable to expect that a noteworthy director has pondered these current-day issues and formulated a coherent response or plan of action.
But clearly he hasn't. I'm going to use a word that I don't like to throw around. I say that because I know that as soon as it's uttered, people that aren't progressives just immediately roll their eyes into the back of their heads and assume that you are just hopelessly dogmatic in your progressivism for even uttering it. But I would just argue that if there was a class called White Privilege 101 taught in college, this type of response is what would be dissected. It's the type of thing that you'd expect a white person to offer in response only if they have never in their lifetime sat down and thought about racial prejudice critically.
Blaxpoitation films featuring only black people? The Brady Bunch featuring forced diversity that didn't play well? On the former, the very name of the genre should tell you that these films are not universally regarded as a great thing for black actors, so it's not like these films necessarily make for great examples where you would assume that any white people would look on and feel like they are being deprived of an opportunity. Further, it misunderstands that even if they are universally praised films that are excluding whites, it should be easy to understand why minority-focused films featuring mostly -- if not exclusively -- minority actors is not going to be perceived the same. They're not going to be subject to the same scrutiny about diversity as other works because they are already the minority race in society.
And the Brady Bunch example seems to not only miss the point that despite poorly done forced diversity, it:
A.) Was still ostensibly a very white show.
B.) Demonstrated that even 42 years ago people there was an understanding that there should be concerns about diversity, even if their method of addressing that left something to be desired.
allenpergallon
Member
"a black."
Disgusting. Though it's always nice to get confirmation of a sneaking suspicion such as this.
And talk about undermining the comparisons to Xavier's school.
Disgusting. Though it's always nice to get confirmation of a sneaking suspicion such as this.
And talk about undermining the comparisons to Xavier's school.
MWS Natural
Member
Actually had planned to see this in theatres...not anymore.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
This guy sounds more outraged at the outrage than the initial outrage. Typical
Considering how tepid that film's business was ($250 million WW on a "how did they spend that much" budget of $150 million), it probably could have drummed up some race-related controversy to get some more dollars.
Then again, I saw that this film cost north of $100 million as well, which makes me wonder why studios keep giving Burton such big budgets for how consistently his films have underperformed since the turn of the millennium.
nkarafo
Member
Why is it so important to you to see yourself on screen?
I only care to see whoever the creator of the story have imagine in his mind when he created that story of his. I don't care if they are black or white, male or female.
If you don't care, what the fuck are you in the thread for?
Steve Youngblood
Member
Again, apologies in advance for using this term, but you have to at least be willing to consider that privilege is a factor here. Maybe you really are just color blind and only care about a well-crafted story. OR maybe it's the fact that -- as white people -- we see white people all the time on screen, and as such it wouldn't really make a lick of sense for us to ever look at all the big films and wonder "where are all the white people at?"
Ah, the "diversity is code for white genocide" argument.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I think you should look at a list of Hollywood movies, look at the cast, and figure out which of your examples are actually the forbidden ones here.
How does it feel to have a persecution complex while part of the dominate demographic?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
This critical thinking tho
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I think you need the self-awareness to see this question is actually about you.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Well we've finally gotten to the "why can't we have a white history month?" portion of the idiot's guide to racial message board debate handbook. What other dumbass posts will he make to illustrate his fundamental misunderstanding of the issue? Stay tuned folks.
I'm dying lmao
Fudgepuppy
Banned
I don't think anyone here is saying that directors and storytellers have an obligation to make movies more diverse, but that it's tiresome to see the same thing over and over again. Therefore, whenever someone tries to shake up the status quo, it inherently feels more interesting and unique.
I'm not going to bash any director for having only white people in their stories, but I'm sure as hell going to be more interested in directors who craft stories I haven't seen before, and that includes diversity and characters you haven't seen before.
I don't think people here are bashing Tim Burton for having solely white casts, but because he got so offended at the thought of trying to shake the status quo.
I'm not going to bash any director for having only white people in their stories, but I'm sure as hell going to be more interested in directors who craft stories I haven't seen before, and that includes diversity and characters you haven't seen before.
I don't think people here are bashing Tim Burton for having solely white casts, but because he got so offended at the thought of trying to shake the status quo.
GabeTheGrouch76
Member
Burton's comment and this thread's responses are an absolute dumpster fire. Talk about picking the absolute worst choice at a response, and picking the wrong hill to die on (referring to those coming out of the woodwork to actually chastise people who took offense at said comment).
Angelus Errare
Banned
Reminds me of the 1886 thread.
Netherscourge
Banned
This is pure racism. Being offended that a TV or movie production is trying to be more diverse IS being racist. When the status-quo is WHITE, you NEED to break down some walls to give NON-WHITE people a chance. Replacing a white character with a minority actor is acceptable because WHITE people have been doing the opposite for as long as movies and TV existed and it was keeping minority actors locked out of he business. And when white actors did take those roles, they usual did a very offensive portrayal of them.
-Take Mickey Rooney's Asian character Breakfast At Tiffany's - a completely racist, cartoonish and derogatory portrayal for the sake of comic relief.
And being OK with "blacksploitation" is practically doubling-down on the racism. Blacksploitation existed in the first place because there were not enough more serious movie roles available for African Americans, thanks to racism in the industry. White people didn't WANT to be in blacksploitation movies because they looked at it as 2nd tier and beneth them. Tim Burton never had to worry about "forcing white people into a black movie" because white people would have seen it as a low point or desperation on their part. That's how screwed up the whole thing is
The Tim Burton defense force better back down on this. He just exposed himself and what he thinks about whitewashing and it's very disappointing to me. Put aside your childhood movie loves for a moment and hold him accountable. I loved those movies too, but damn if he didn't just stick a knife in my heart.
If he was talking about Token characters and how awful they are then fine there wouldn't have been any drama.
But he instead opted to say that it's "offensive" to have an ethic minority characters in movie if they don't have a good reason to be in a movie.
There is nothing wrong in having a diverse cast and shame on Burton and Hollywood for thinking otherwise.
Yeah loved those movies and I still will but I am unlikely to watch a new movie by Burton.
But he instead opted to say that it's "offensive" to have an ethic minority characters in movie if they don't have a good reason to be in a movie.
There is nothing wrong in having a diverse cast and shame on Burton and Hollywood for thinking otherwise.
Yeah loved those movies and I still will but I am unlikely to watch a new movie by Burton.
wrestleman
Member
Thank you kindly for reminding me of this:
(he got offended that I posted a satirical parody of one of his own tweets)
Why are you a racist fighting against minority representation in big budget films?
DragonSworne
Banned
I hope this movie tanks now. I'll be boycotting it that's for sure.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I'm shocked that the guy who routinely sounds like a pompous know-it-all blowhard on his own podcast is taking a totally jackass stance on this issue.
Prodigal Son
Member
lmao what
Not the best response, guy.
EDIT: As some are saying. It's 1940s Wales would have done just fine.
Not the best response, guy.
EDIT: As some are saying. It's 1940s Wales would have done just fine.
Reading the book at the moment. It's predominantly set on a tiny island in 1940's Wales - of course people were going to be white.
I understand the comment that shoehorning in different cultures to be seen as "PC" as being racist in itself. It's almost like saying "you don't belong in this situation but we'll have to somehow find you a place so we don't upset anyone". It's annoying that everything has to be considered an act of racism these days. Not putting a white person in a film about indigenous tribespeople of the Amazon wouldn't be seen as racist, so why is that any different from not having other cultures in 1940s Wales? It's not a political statement, or any reflection of the director's - or anybody's - opinion of different races; simply an accurate historical representation of the time the film is set.
Edit: that said, Tim Burton's response was ridiculous.
I understand the comment that shoehorning in different cultures to be seen as "PC" as being racist in itself. It's almost like saying "you don't belong in this situation but we'll have to somehow find you a place so we don't upset anyone". It's annoying that everything has to be considered an act of racism these days. Not putting a white person in a film about indigenous tribespeople of the Amazon wouldn't be seen as racist, so why is that any different from not having other cultures in 1940s Wales? It's not a political statement, or any reflection of the director's - or anybody's - opinion of different races; simply an accurate historical representation of the time the film is set.
Edit: that said, Tim Burton's response was ridiculous.
Him talking about token characters in responses to the criticism of this film's lack of diversity is side stepping said criticism. Of course it wouldn't have but as bad as what we have now but ultimately he would still fail to address the point while deflecting to an unrelated phenomenon. Also I would argue that people saying diversity and him hearing tokenism is a personal failing on his part.
Fudgepuppy
Banned
People aren't complaining about all movies not being diverse enough, filling some quota.
People are complaining that Tim Burton gave such a stupid answer as to why.
As said, it's not directors' obligations to have diverse casts, but more directors should try and break the status quo when possible.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Did Tim Burton say anything about the time period as a justification? Why are you bringing that up for him? Why not consider his actual words?
Also, do you really need it explained why near 100% white casting in almost everything Hollywood does is considered racist?
AtomskEater
Member
Accurate historical representation for a movie about children with various magical abilities fighting bad guys who likely have more magical abilities.
Edit: Also consider that it's far, FAR more common for white people to be inserted into or even replace minorities in stories that are about them.
The book that served as the inspiration for 21 featured primarily Asian characters.
The Last Airbender has casting calls specifically asking for white actors, when 2 of the main characters are canonically brown-skinned and based on Inuit culture.
The Last Samurai was a white dude who learned to speak Japanese and wield a katana in a matter of months, ok.
I'm sure there are many, many more examples.
So when people come up with excuses like "it's Europe in the 1940s, of course it was only white people" or "OH NOW IT IS FORBIDDEN FOR WHITE PEOPLE TO BE IN MOVIES" it sounds so tired and old. This stuff gets a pass one way but not the other.
Edit: Also consider that it's far, FAR more common for white people to be inserted into or even replace minorities in stories that are about them.
The book that served as the inspiration for 21 featured primarily Asian characters.
The Last Airbender has casting calls specifically asking for white actors, when 2 of the main characters are canonically brown-skinned and based on Inuit culture.
The Last Samurai was a white dude who learned to speak Japanese and wield a katana in a matter of months, ok.
I'm sure there are many, many more examples.
So when people come up with excuses like "it's Europe in the 1940s, of course it was only white people" or "OH NOW IT IS FORBIDDEN FOR WHITE PEOPLE TO BE IN MOVIES" it sounds so tired and old. This stuff gets a pass one way but not the other.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Ha. The edit addresses my response. I was going to make a couple of points. One is that while the explanation you've given isn't going to satisfy all concerns, it's still much more understandable than the answer he gave. Two is just that even if a question doesn't feel entirely relevant or just feels bad, giving an even worse answer in response probably isn't the way to go.
Ninja Scooter
Member
The issue is with his response and completely out of touch view on the issue of diversity. Nobody is accusing Tim Burton of being a card carrying member of the KkK who hates black people, but his completely dismissive view on diversity and inclusiveness (and the rush of mouth breathers like Colin Moriarity running to his defense) is indicative of the problem as a whole: That whites are viewed as the "default" in Hollywood. You'd think someone in the position of A Tim Burton (or the aforementioned Ridley Scott) would be in a position to create change in this regard, so that they would instead be so dismissive of the issue is incredibly disappointing and only helps further fuel the underlying systemic and institutional racism that plagues so many parts of our society still, and that is so much more toxic and dangerous than some idiot in a white sheet burning crosses on a lawn.
But his face/skin was not visible, also, he literally played an ape (now now, so did many white actors).
So i guess the batman films would be the last time he had POC actors visibly on the screen?
Hollywood is not giving them enough roles yet as for POC actors to be choosy, that's the whole problem in the industry.
Hari Seldon
Member
What exactly is a blacksploitation movie? Not like early 90s Martin Lawrence stuff? That stuff was great.
his answer is horrible, but like others are saying... I "think" I get what he was trying to say. Story takes place in wales.. throwing racial diversity into a story that takes place in a location that doesn't have much racial diversity seems shoehorned.
but yeah.. what he says comes across pretty crappy, and then throwing in blaxploitation is just "huh?"
but yeah.. what he says comes across pretty crappy, and then throwing in blaxploitation is just "huh?"
Prodigal Son
Member
lol where have you been if you think 2016 Hollywood has anything near 100% white casting? This is a genuine question. I genuinely haven't seen one movie with 100% white casting in the last 5 years. Not once.
You ever seen Black dynomite? Doesn't matter if the show or the movie.
Blacksploitation is the genre they were parodying.
Dolemite
I don't think you can "shoehorn" diversity and I definitely don't think you can do so with a film about magic children. lol didn't we have a film called Brooklyn that was set in Brooklyn and there wasn't any black and Latinos in it?
Hari Seldon
Member
No I have never seen it.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
But it shouldn't be getting a pass.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Still a weak excuse when we have movies and TV shows that take place in periods and places where there should be diversity and there isn't, and no one flinches.
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