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[Thunder Monkey]

I should have been on the wall of shame. Not even two weeks ago I said it would have a lackluster opening, and word of mouth would show if it was a "success".

Given what looks to be a really great start my crow has been eaten. And now word of mouth will determine just how high it can go. If these numbers track and WoM continues to be as good as it is so far... this movie could easily surpass Iron Man 1 at the box office and maybe keep pace with other post Avengers Marvel movies.

Crazy to see though. The Guardians are now potentially a more mainstream property than Wonder Woman. Think about that.

 

[J10]

If Wonder Woman was a Marvel character she'd already have a movie. No female character in the Marvel universe even comes close to having the same level of pop culture relevance as Wonder Woman.

If Marvel were building up to Justice League, I assume Wonder Woman would be relegated to a supporting character in a male lead story, the way Black Widow has been.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

People love talking animals. If I made the Flash movie I'd use Gorilla Grodd!

Then you will like something they tease in the Flash pilot.

 

[Manmademan]

There's a current thread on GAF with Marvel's movie showrunner saying they don't know how to work in more female characters. They're just being stupid at this point.

People love talking animals. If I made the Flash movie I'd use Gorilla Grodd!

I commented in that thread, and it does make sense. Marvel's strongest female characters are all tied up in the X-men franchise. The female characters they DO have access to typically can't carry their own books or struggle to do so.

There IS no long running female hero in the marvel stable comparable to DC's wonder woman, and part of this was a deliberate strategy by marvel to focus on team books and concepts (avengers, the x-books, gotg, new warriors, etc) over individuals from the 80s going forward.

at this point, so much of the marvel stable is tied up in "franchise" properties that launching an unknown female solo hero (especially one that cannot carry a book solo) is a big risk, if it means not launching Cap 3, IM4, Thor 3, Guardians 2, etc. GOTG though unknown is an easier sell, because ensemble films have something for everyone. if you can't relate to gamora, you might relate to peter quill, rocket, or drax.

I can see marvel trying to spin a character out of Avengers 3 or Guardians 2 if a new female character is successful there, but I wouldn't hold my breath for a Captain Marvel or Wasp solo film on it's own.

 

[ZeroGravity]

If Marvel were building up to Justice League, I assume Wonder Woman would be relegated to a supporting character in a male lead story, the way Black Widow has been.

I don't think the two characters are comparable in any way, especially because Black Widow has largely been a supporting character her entire existence.

 

[J10]

I don't think the two characters are comparable in any way, especially because Black Widow has largely been a supporting character her entire existence.

It's not about how similar the characters are. It's about how Hollywood and the world treats women. They're secondary to men in most cases.

 

[ReiGun]

Marvel also doesn't have a female led movie yet.

Meanwhile, WB/DC has two!...I mean, they're shit and most people haven't even seen the first one. But they're there.

We all want a Wonder Woman movie and it's crazy we still don't have confirmation one is coming, but trying to use GotG coming out before that as some shot at WB when Marvel Studios is showing the same apprehension and giving us the same double speak regarding movies starring women and PoC is backwards to me. I mean, the weekend they announced GotG was the same weekend they gave us the "Wakanda is too hard to create" line. Neither side is really winning in the "releasing movies not starring straight white dudes" category.

Of course, Marvel has more goodwill atm and none of their female characters are as big as Wonder Woman so them not having a movie doesn't come across as egregious to the nerd populous. So I get why they aren't catching as much shit over it/people are more willing to give them benefit of the doubt.

 

[gabbo]

Should this give me hope that one day maybe it will lead to more lower-tier/unknown characters getting movies (ie wanting that Deadpool test footage/script made into a full film)?

 

[Verendus]

not really. Why would you only compare marvel's WEAKER output to Pixar's early catalogue, while ignoring the successes?

Marvel is 10 films in. Those ten films are:

Iron Man
Incredible Hulk
Iron Man 2
Thor
Captain America: First Avenger
Avengers
Iron Man 3
Thor: The Dark World
Captain America: Winter Soldier
Guardians of the Galaxy

Pixar's first 10 films were:

Toy Story
A Bug's Life
Toy Story 2
Monster's Inc
Finding Nemo
The Incredibles
Cars
Ratatouille
Wall-E
Up

Between the two, there's not a ton of daylight. Neither have ANY bad films in that ten film stretch, and even the weakest (Hulk and Thor 2 for marvel, Cars for pixar) are still pretty well received. On the high end, Winter Soldier, Avengers, Iron Man, and Guardians of the Galaxy have universal acclaim and scores in the mid to high 90s, and no one can really argue that Avengers has changed the way people are making movies- the "connected universe" concept has since spread to Fox, Warner, and Sony since launch.

I'm not going to argue which is better, but I think there's a good chance there will be some comparison further down the line.

This has to be a joke post.

 

[G-Fex]

WW movie is coming but ugh..the wonder woman they picked.

 

[Manmademan]

This has to be a joke post.

because....?

 

[Sheroking]

because....?

I suppose because Pixar has made some "Best Picture" calibre movies and Marvel has not?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Who started this dumbass narrative and why did we all agree to follow them off that cliff?

Because SOUNDING like you know what you're talking about beats actually knowing what you're talking about almost every time. It's easier, too. Just take something someone else said, say it louder than they said it, fold arms, and smirk.

 

[Finaika]

I suppose because Pixar has made some "Best Picture" calibre movies and Marvel has not?

I wouldn't be surprised if GotG got nominated for best picture.

 

[Sheroking]

I wouldn't be surprised if GotG got nominated for best picture.

Not a fluffer's chance in an elephant porn.

Too many Oscar voters are old school types who hate genre stuff in general, let alone a Marvel movie with a talking raccoon.

 

[crazyrabbits]

Lmao is that the biggest wall of shame ever made?!

Pretty sure the Uncharted 3 review thread was much longer, but this one is glorious!

 

[Manmademan]

I suppose because Pixar has made some "Best Picture" calibre movies and Marvel has not?

Pixar hasn't made ANY films that have landed them "best picture". The closest was toy story 3, which was nominated but lost to "the king's speech." What they DO end up with is "best animated feature film" which is exclusive to animated films.

there IS no "best superhero film" or "best science fiction film" or "best action film" oscar to give to the MCU. If marvel wants a best picture oscar, they're competing with "12 years a slave" or "The artist". Good luck there. The best you can argue is that the MCU is consistently at the top of their genre, CONSISTENTLY better than everyone else making similar films by a wide margin, and has been for ten films straight, which is not something that can be said for DC/Warner, or Sony and Fox who hold the rest of marvel's catalogue.

This is all a moot point anyway, as Oscars are more of an indicator of hollywood politics than they are picture quality- It didn't matter that Avatar was the most successful film of all time and revolutionized 3D, it still lost to "the hurt locker."

double edit: and it seems I'm misunderstood. the point wasn't that "marvel's catalogue is as good/better than pixar", the point was that marvel's unprecedented run of consistent genre defining and hit films may be referenced in the future similar to pixar's early unprecedented run of consistently genre defining hit films. It's not meant to be a direct comparison between the two.

 

[numble]

because....?

Even ignoring the animation category, Pixar movies get regularly nominated for Oscars like best screenplay and even has received multiple best picture nominations.

 

[Trouble]

I never had a dog in this hunt, but hilarious OP.

 

[Kusagari]

I don't think Marvel's aversion to a female led movie should be glossed over, but I also do think they would have taken the chance on Wonder Woman by now if she was their property.

It doesn't help that most of Marvel's known female qualities are holed up at Fox because they're X-Men.

 

[Sheroking]

Pixar hasn't made ANY films that have landed them "best picture". The closest was toy story 3, which was nominated but lost to "the king's speech." What they DO end up with is "best animated feature film" which is exclusive to animated films.

I said calibre, not winner. The Academy Awards created the animated category to KEEP Pixar from getting in. There was too much noise about Pixar deserving to be nominated every year in the mid to late oughts.

Marvel has never made a Toy Story 2, a Wall E or an Up. They've never even made a The Dark Knight. They aren't even trying to. It's a "it is what it is" type deal and Marvel's review curve is different because of it.

 

[numble]

Pixar hasn't made ANY films that have landed them "best picture". The closest was toy story 3, which was nominated but lost to "the king's speech." What they DO end up with is "best animated feature film" which is exclusive to animated films.

there IS no "best superhero film" or "best science fiction film" or "best action film" oscar to give to the MCU. If marvel wants a best picture oscar, they're competing with "12 years a slave" or "The artist". Good luck there. The best you can argue is that the MCU is consistently at the top of their genre, CONSISTENTLY better than everyone else making similar films by a wide margin, and has been for ten films straight, which is not something that can be said for DC/Warner, or Sony and Fox who hold the rest of marvel's catalogue.

This is all a moot point anyway, as Oscars are more of an indicator of hollywood politics than they are picture quality- It didn't matter that Avatar was the most successful film of all time and revolutionized 3D, it still lost to "the hurt locker."

Up was also nominated for Best Picture. You're forgetting the multiple nominations for Best Screenplay, too.

 

[Manmademan]

I said calibre, not winner. The Academy Awards created the animated category to KEEP Pixar from getting in. There was too much noise about Pixar deserving to be nominated every year in the mid to late oughts.

Marvel has never made a Toy Story 2, a Wall E or an Up. They've never even made a The Dark Knight. They aren't even trying to. It's a "it is what it is" type deal and Marvel's review curve is different because of it.

Definitely not true. Winter Soldier as a political thriller is easily dark knight calibre, was wildly successful, and has universal acclaim.

edit: and once again-

double edit: and it seems I'm misunderstood. the point wasn't that "marvel's catalogue is as good/better than pixar", the point was that marvel's unprecedented run of consistent genre defining and hit films may be referenced in the future similar to pixar's early unprecedented run of consistently genre defining hit films. It's not meant to be a direct comparison between the two.

 

[Siegcram]

I said calibre, not winner. The Academy Awards created the animated category to KEEP Pixar from getting in. There was too much noise about Pixar deserving to be nominated every year in the mid to late oughts.

Marvel has never made a Toy Story 2, a Wall E or an Up. They've never even made a The Dark Knight. They aren't even trying to. It's a "it is what it is" type deal and Marvel's review curve is different because of it.

I'd say the first Iron Man was their Dark Knight. It has a phenomenal performance with RDJ, set the tone for pretty much all the future movies and put them on the map as a studio.

And it's a fucking rad and infinetly re-watchable movie.

 

[Curufinwe]

Pretty sure the Uncharted 3 review thread was much longer, but this one is glorious!

You could have made one about that long from all the box office experts who said the first Hobbit movie was going to perform way below the LotR films after its first couple of weeks.

 

[Manmademan]

I'd say the first Iron Man was their Dark Knight. It has a phenomenal performance with RDJ, set the tone for pretty much all the future movies and put them on the map as a studio.

And it's a fucking rad and infinetly re-watchable movie.

Iron Man, WS, Avengers, and it seems GOTG all seem to be on the same tier- though I admit I'm relying on critical reviews for that last one, I'm seeing it later tonight.

I can't really overstate how good of a movie WS is though- its definitely better than IM1 and the strongest movie marvel's made to date, imho.

 

[Siegcram]

Iron Man, WS, Avengers, and it seems GOTG all seem to be on the same tier- though I admit I'm relying on critical reviews for that last one, I'm seeing it later tonight.

I can't really overstate how good of a movie WS is though- its definitely better than IM1 and the strongest movie marvel's made to date, imho.

It may be the better movie overall, but RDJ's performance just impressed me to no end the first time I saw it.

That is Ledger level on how much he nailed the character from the get-go. WS doesn't really have that.

 

[Verendus]

I said calibre, not winner. The Academy Awards created the animated category to KEEP Pixar from getting in. There was too much noise about Pixar deserving to be nominated every year in the mid to late oughts.

Marvel has never made a Toy Story 2, a Wall E or an Up. They've never even made a The Dark Knight. They aren't even trying to. It's a "it is what it is" type deal and Marvel's review curve is different because of it.

Pretty much. Crazy ass people comparing mostly shitty movies to what are generally considered some of the best movies of their years, and not just for their genre. When Marvel is able to make people look at these movies as anything other than 'just another comic book movie' like Pixar did for animated movies, you can make this comparison. Until then, it's ridiculous. The only comic book movie that did that was The Dark Knight and that was 6 years ago.

 

[Manmademan]

It may be the better movie overall, but RDJ's performance just impressed me to no end the first time I saw it.

That is Ledger level on how much he nailed the character from the get-go. WS doesn't really have that.

That I'll give you. RDJ absolutely knocked it out of the park and totally drug his career from "in the grave" to "A-list" overnight because of it.

as a movie though, WS really did try to do something very different from IM or Avengers- there might have been two jokes in the entire movie. Not only did they succeed, they knocked it out of the park.

DC/Warner has one "TDK" caliber movie, and it's TDK, largely on the back of ledger's performance. Marvel has made FOUR since IM1.

Pretty much. Crazy ass people comparing mostly shitty movies to what are generally considered some of the best movies of their years, and not just for their genre.

now THIS is a joke post.

 

[Discotheque]

The Thor movies are worse than cars forreal, as is the hulk film

The only mcu movies that I actually like the whole way through are cap 2 and iron man 1 and 3. I'm assuming guardians of the galaxy as well when I check that out

Marvel does not have four TDK caliber films, not even one yet

Cap 2 might be begins caliber, I dunno maybe

 

[SlowRevolution]

DC/Warner has one "TDK" caliber movie, and it's TDK, largely on the back of ledger's performance. Marvel has made FOUR since IM1.

TDK caliber just doesn't mean what it used to

 

[Dalek]

I really liked Dark Knight-but I definetly like Winter Soldier more. It's one thing to make a good Batman movie after 6 attempts-but to make a A+ Cap movie in his second solo outing is impressive.

 

[Verendus]

now THIS is a joke post.

You just have shit taste. It's okay though. There are people who like Twilight too. They exist in peace, so no reason you can't.

 

[SlowRevolution]

I really liked Dark Knight-but I definetly like Winter Soldier more. It's one thing to make a good Batman movie after 6 attempts-but to make a A+ Cap movie in his second solo outing is impressive.

it's not like Nolan also made every other batman movie, and it just took him a long time to figure out how to do it

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Hey, the first Thor IS good!

Blader pls not like this you were the CHOSEN ONE

 

[Red]

TDK caliber just doesn't mean what it used to

It never meant anything. It's absurd to use one movie as a tool to judge the quality of another. The only instrument you have to measure that sort of "caliber" is "how much do I like this, compared to how much I like that?"

Nothing Marvel has done has even attempted to emulate what Nolan did with TDK trilogy. The tone is different, the style is different, the scripts are different. They are polar opposites in terms of mood.

You have to break it down. What are your metrics? When you say "this movie is/isn't on the level of TDK," what are you talking about? Cinematography? Script? Acting? Faithfulness to the source material? Without context, the comparison means nothing. Like saying, I like bagels, but they're not on the same level as donuts.

The direct comparison only establishes what you liked more. Critics don't use a single movie as their only barometer of quality, and note how much the new film fulfills the functions of the model, as if four stars is equivalent to "very like The Dark Knight" and two stars is "only somewhat like The Dark Knight." It does not make sense to judge a film by considering how alike or different it is with another.

 

[Manmademan]

You just have shit taste. It's okay though. There are people who like Twilight too. They exist in peace, so no reason you can't.

yes, me and every critic ever, tens of millions of people around the globe. There are people who love twilight, but twilight does not have universal critical acclaim.

There's a difference between "shit movie" and "movie I don't like." learning the difference between the two will get you pretty far.

Nothing Marvel has done has even attempted to emulate what Nolan did with TDK trilogy. The tone is different, the style is different, the scripts are different. They are polar opposites in terms of mood.

and here we have someone else who skipped winter soldier.

 

[freenudemacusers]

hey i enjoy marvel movies but compared to pixar's output they are cars 2 tier

 

[Dalek]

it's not like Nolan also made every other batman movie, and it just took him a long time to figure out how to do it

Well by that argument, The Russo Bros did it in their first attempt.

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

Cap 2 not shying away from the source material whilst being a great film elevates it above TDK for me. That and also I like Cap more than Batman

 

[Discotheque]

I'll keep it short and less ranty. Only when they dump Whedon and get somebody who can write scripts that don't just consist of witty banter the whole way through can we get a good avengers movie. As for the mcu, cap 2 is the only movie there that I truly think is a great action blockbuster. The old studio system of total control serves them well in the box office but as a result we have something that should be cool churning out absolutely mundane and unremarkable movies.

*Will see guardians tomorrow

 

[Verendus]

yes, me and every critic ever, tens of millions of people around the globe. There are people who love twilight, but twilight does not have universal critical acclaim.

Neither do those Marvel movies. Most of their ratings on average are 7 and below. Thor - 6.7, Thor 2 - 6.2, Iron Man 2 - 6.5, Incredible Hulk - 6.2, Iron Man 3 - 7, Captain America - 7 etc. They're average, and they're reviewed for the mindless crap they are. They managed to do well with Iron Man, Avengers, and apparently Winter Solider, but their success doesn't make the others universally critically acclaimed or some crap.

Most of those Pixar movies, on the other hand, tend to sit above 8. They're also movies which have been nominated for Best Picture, Best Screenplay etc. I don't often see people trying to justify themselves enjoying them by saying, 'They're good for an animated movie.' Which tends to be the prevailing judgment for comic book movies.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Definitely not true. Winter Soldier as a political thriller is easily dark knight calibre,

No it isn't. It's not even trying for that, either. It's a breezy spy flick with superhero action. It's not anywhere near "Heat" starring Batman & The Joker. Neither the screenwriters, the directors, or the executives in charge of steering the overall direction of this universe, were trying for anything as serious-minded and (comparatively) psychological as "The Dark Knight."

The Dark Knight worked so well the Academy ended up changing its submission rules for Best Picture to make up for the perception that it had snubbed the film for its due consideration. Sure, they were also looking to increase ratings for their awards ceremony, and allowing one or two well-recieved blockbusters into the mix would help, but "The Dark Knight" recieved legitimate press for missing the Best Picture cut that year.

Nobody will be discussing "The Winter Soldier" come December when Oscar talk heats up. It's not gonna happen.

It's a fun movie, and probably Marvel's best film. But it's not "Dark Knight-calibre" at all. They're not even holding the same kind of fuckin gun. The ammo will not swap.

 

[kodecraft]

Get em.

 

[Hagi]

The Thor movies are worse than cars forreal, as is the hulk film

The only mcu movies that I actually like the whole way through are cap 2 and iron man 1 and 3. I'm assuming guardians of the galaxy as well when I check that out

Marvel does not have four TDK caliber films, not even one yet

Cap 2 might be begins caliber, I dunno maybe

Begins is the best Bat film though..

 

[StoopKid]

It's so mind blowing to me the people that don't recognize that Iron Man and Thor was practically unknown to the general public until their movies came out. Captain America was more or less a laughing stock. Now after their movies are hits, people pretend they were always popular. Marvel Studios making the first Iron Man was a huge gamble because they film rights had been at New Line Cinema for years and nothing happened with them, because there was zero faith in the property.

This!

Iron man was a c tier character before the movie.

 

[jett]

I see we're still pretending TWS is some sort of smart political/spy thriller.

 

[Manmademan]

No it isn't. It's not even trying for that, either. It's a breezy spy flick with superhero action. It's not anywhere near "Heat" starring Batman & The Joker. Neither the screenwriters, the directors, or the executives in charge of steering the overall direction of this universe, were trying for anything as serious-minded and (comparatively) psychological as "The Dark Knight."

disagree. comparisons between the two are all over the place.

Until the release of Captain America: The Winter Soldier, the Marvel movie juggernaut was a series of breezy and loud, yet easy-to-digest comic book films. Winter Soldier just said goodbye to all that by being a super serious, not-for-kids political thriller with the occasional hero thrown in.

http://blogs.citypaper.com/noise/index.php/2014/04/marvels-own-dark-knight/

Whether you agree or not, there are definitely parallels between the two.

 

[Messypandas]

No it isn't. It's not even trying for that, either. It's a breezy spy flick with superhero action. It's not anywhere near "Heat" starring Batman & The Joker. Neither the screenwriters, the directors, or the executives in charge of steering the overall direction of this universe, were trying for anything as serious-minded and (comparatively) psychological as "The Dark Knight."

The Dark Knight worked so well the Academy ended up changing its submission rules for Best Picture to make up for the perception that it had snubbed the film for its due consideration. Sure, they were also looking to increase ratings for their awards ceremony, and allowing one or two well-recieved blockbusters into the mix would help, but "The Dark Knight" recieved legitimate press for missing the Best Picture cut that year.

Nobody will be discussing "The Winter Soldier" come December when Oscar talk heats up. It's not gonna happen.

It's a fun movie, and probably Marvel's best film. But it's not "Dark Knight-calibre" at all. They're not even holding the same kind of fuckin gun. The ammo will not swap.

Even Feige loves it

and the writer of Ant Man

 

[Bobby Roberts]

disagree. comparisons between the two are all over the place.

Link 'em. I'd be surprised if they weren't surface-level comparisons for the most part, a quick touchstone for reference purposes more than straight up analysis. Curious to read how those might read.