Dominican Power
Member
I'm up to the first priest Satori
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Toonami |Aug15| You know, Luffy, we really are One Piece
- Thread starter Grexeno
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Moriah is pretty close. The only reason Luffy wins that battle is thanks to hax that allow him to take down Oars (and you have to think of Oars as an extension of Moriah's powers). Otherwise you're pretty much right. Kizaru, Kuma, Magellan, and the other Admirals all pretty thoroughly outclassed him. And Hody Jones and Caesar were much weaker (though Caesar at least has a power set that is a tough match up for Luffy).
He does most certainly win a more recent battle via the Fairy Tail method.
Doctor Decimate
Member
So I get that the Merry's arrival has been heavily foreshadowed and something similar has even happened before in Skypiea. But when it happened in Skypiea, it was pretty much bullshit, so that means part of the reason it's not bullshit now is because it was bullshit already...and I don't think that really diminishes the issue much. Franky's explanation in Water Seven goes a long way in that regard, but something about it still doesn't sit right with me. One Piece is full of a bunch of weird stuff, but there's a kind of logic to some of it like the Devil Fruits and the fact that all the characters pretty much just come up with attacks as they go along because it's based on their existing abilities. And sure, there's some stuff that isn't logical, but it's never really used for a big turning point the way the stuff regarding the Merry is. The Merry's use within the plot is always a little too convenient, both in Skypiea and in Enies Lobby, and the "soul" of an inanimate object being manifested by the crew's love for that inanimate object is a little much for me to swallow with as sparse of a buildup as we get. If the Merry ever played much of an active role in the plot beyond That One Time in Skypiea, I might not have much of an issue with it because my reservations about the concept would be overshadowed by the prominent role it takes in the plot; I'd be kind of forced to accept it, if that makes sense, and it would stop seeming overly convenient. But as it stands, I just don't buy it and it seems like a bit of a cop-out. It makes sense within the show I guess and it's a very well-executed scene, but it just doesn't work for me. I kind of hoped it would on the rewatch of the arc because the scene where Usopp reveals himself to Luffy bugged me initially and didn't at all the second time around, but the Merry stuff still bothers me.
Doctor Decimate
Member
This doesn't at all address anything I actually said :/
Doctor Decimate
Member
And neither does this, because I already said that Devil Fruits are pretty logical within the world of One Piece. The existence of magical fruits that can essentially change anything into anything makes pretty much whatever is said to be the result of a Devil Fruit pretty easy to accept. "Because of a magic fruit" is a vastly different, much more tangible reason than "because they loved it."
Imperial Bishop
Banned
Lies and slander.
How so? Back in Skypiea, it was a mysterious phenomenon. Why would it be bullshit?
At its core, the One Piece world is a alternate fantasy world. Oda loves to take mythical aquatic tall tales and insert it into the realm. Klabatutermann are a fairly popular sailor myth that fits the world. And the concept was introduce at a point where the scope of the One Piece world was still growing.
It's supernatural, not magical like Devil Fruits, and it's pretty exaggerated, because everything has to be exaggerated in One Piece.
That hasn't been brought up yet.
BassForever
Member
You can accept a mermaid but not kablatterman when both are mythical creaturs that have origins from sailor stories that One Piece draws heavy inspiration from?
Doctor Decimate
Member
This isn't the explanation we were given.
Nothing else is as fuzzy and vague as this is, though. Devil Fruits are fuzzy and vague, but they don't beg for an explanation in quite the same way; you still understand what they do even if you don't really know the specifics. They magically change the properties of your body when you eat them. Done. It's not specific, but it's just specific enough to be able to pretty much handwave any nonsense that results from it. "Love creates ghost ship driver" does not have the very tangible explanation that Devil Fruits do. There's also the issue that Devil Fruits are used much differently within the plot. A Klabautermann isn't a constant presence, and it's a pivotal plot point rather than just the thing that gives people their powers for the action scenes.
Uh yes? There's a pretty big difference between a creature that just kind of exists and a weird ghost thing that manifests itself because people love a ship whenever it's convenient enough for the plot.
...Why? Mermaids are a real world sailor myth that does not actually exist. Klabautermanns are a real world sailor myth that does not actually exist.
Or the talking lion that can turn into a turtle. Or the zombies. Or the women that can turn into giant snakes. Or all the freaky shit in Impel Down. Or the walking talking toys
Oda knows weird.
BassForever
Member
In the world of one piece, both of these mythical creatures exist. An entity that possesses doomed ships that are loved by their crew and an entity with the top half of a woman and the bottom half of a fish neither makes more or less sense in this world. Heck how kublatterman is used and introduced in One Piece is far closer to the original myth then how a mermaid is used and introduced into the series.
Here's the thing about fantasy stories: it's hard to say anything fantastic is really off the table. However, there is an easy rule that works pretty well in fantasy stories to establish what things might be impossible:
"Anything that contradicts already established lore."
For example, if there's a Devil Fruit eater who can still swim. No one would argue that breaks "the rules" and would require a very solid explanation. However, if someone says that kablatterman exist, then that's not really breaking any rule regarding what creatures can or can't exist.
"Anything that contradicts already established lore."
For example, if there's a Devil Fruit eater who can still swim. No one would argue that breaks "the rules" and would require a very solid explanation. However, if someone says that kablatterman exist, then that's not really breaking any rule regarding what creatures can or can't exist.
Doctor Decimate
Member
Because the circumstances around the existence of both of them is not even remotely the same thing. A mermaid is just a creature. There is no vague explanation about why it exists because it's just another creature. A Klabautermann is a physical manifestation of the ship's will brought out by love for that ship. There is a very clear difference between these two concepts.
And the point I have repeatedly made is that the reasoning for each of these creatures existing is where the issue lies, not the fact that they DO exist.
A Klabautermann is a water kobold attracted to doomed but beloved ships. It's just a creature that exists. There is no vague explanation about why it exists because it's just another creature.
Doctor Decimate
Member
The explanation we were given within the show is that it's a manifestation of the Merry, not just a random creature like it is in the original myth.
It's the same with giants, merfolk, fishmen,
whatever Moriah is, possibly a Snakeneck
They exist because this world is huge and fantastical.
BassForever
Member
Why is a spirit considered not a creature? Because it has no physical body? Oda took the real concept legend Klabautermann (a water fairy/spirit who appears on doomed ships and guides deserving sailors to safety) and twisted it slightly to work better in the world of one piece (a water fairy/spirit that appears when a doomed ship is loved by its crew to take them to safety). Would you have been happier if an old crusty spirit appeared steering the ship revealing itself as Klabautermann a passing spirit that bonded with the Merry/Straw Hats and helped them in skypiea and now at enies lobby?
Imperial Bishop
Banned
I can see the point you're trying to make, but Devil Fruits would have to fit in the same boat (no pun intended) as a Klabautermann by that reasoning.
We don't know where Devil Fruits come from and we don't know why people who eat them can't swim. That is unexplained.
The Klabautermann doesn't appear until the ship is close to the end of its "life", and it only makes itself visible to one of the sailors. A constant presence of the Klabautermann can't really work around those rules. And since most of the story is told from the crew's perspective, that kind of spirit wouldn't have been known to the reader until the right time.
BassForever
Member
Here's a real issue with one piece worth discussing, what happens if a fishman who can already breath underwater eats a devil fruit and falls into the ocean. They can't swim but they can't drown so do they just sink like a rock and get stuck down there forever?
I mean, unless the devil fruit makes them immortal they'll starve to death. Too weak to crawl along the bottom when they hit.
BassForever
Member
I now want to see an arc where the straw hats force someone to eat the immortal fruit and throw them into the ocean
Watch the spoilers B-dubs.
One Piece is weird but it is kind of amazing how consistent most of the weirdness is. I can only think of a handful of circumstances where Oda may bend the rules too far one of which is not making Paulie a devil fruit user.
No man should have so many ropes.
One Piece is weird but it is kind of amazing how consistent most of the weirdness is. I can only think of a handful of circumstances where Oda may bend the rules too far one of which is not making Paulie a devil fruit user.
No man should have so many ropes.
Fixed. I suppose this is what I get for posting after I've had a couple of beers.
Paulie is clearly the new crewmember! He's got sass, magic rope powers, a couple of goofy character flaws, an earned disrespect of the powers that be!
Elfforkusu
Member
This gif always gets me.
It's such a flawless gif for a specific situation in a specific thread.
Doctor Decimate
Member
Because the existence of something that is essentially an animal doesn't require an explanation and isn't manifested out of some vague "they love it a lot!" explanation. The only thing that's inherently unbelievable about the existence of a made-up creature, a physical creature, is the fact that it doesn't exist in OUR world, and that issue is removed when we're talking about a world that isn't meant to be our world. However, something like a Klabautermann then requires a fairly separate explanation that we're not really given; is it magic? Do ghosts exist in this world? What else can just loving something enough manifest? Why does it make it manifest? And no, I wouldn't be happier with that alternative because that goes back to the plot convenience issue that's been largely glossed over in favor of picking out only one specific issue from of the post I made; I don't think I've done a bad job of explaining myself and it feels like I'm just having talking points repeated back to me.
Well, that's the thing. They are kind of in the same boat. Their explanations boil down to "they just do." But Devil Fruits don't raise as many questions because "fruits with magic powers" is a much simpler concept, it doesn't have any outside implications, it doesn't really need anything to be pre-established, and it's used differently in the plot. "Love makes a ghost ship driver" feels like it's missing some connective tissue somewhere, whereas the Devil Fruit is "because it's magic." I mean, it's not a great explanation, but it's a better one than the Klabautermann.
And it doesn't even have to be a constant presence, it just has to show up more than in these two incredibly convenient instances.
I guess the closest comparison I can think of is Sword Art Online's first arc with the VR helmet and Yui's developing AI. I don't really care about Yui developing a real personality anymore because at this point I just don't give a shit, but when it happened, it really bothered me because it had so many far-reaching implications. It's a pretty complex concept that the show just tossed off and expected us to swallow, but because it's a complex concept, it raises questions of how the hell it's possible. The explanation in the show was basically "IT'S SCI-FI IN THE FUTURE!" And I'd already accepted something along similar lines with the VR helmet, which has a few issues in terms of plausibility but because it's such a simple fantastical concept, it's easier to accept. It doesn't raise questions, it doesn't have any real implications that go unanswered, and it's built into the concept of the show itself. But just because I accepted the sci-fi video game hat didn't mean I was going to accept pretty much any other thing the show chose to bring up like AI having real emotions. Obviously One Piece comes much closer to working than SAO does in that regard, but it's a similar issue.
Somewhat similar. It's certainly a convenient event, but I feel there are /tons/ of contrived conveniences in all of fiction if we decided to enumerate them. Perhaps this is too conciliatory, but I guess I figure conveniences are going to happen, and just the fact this particular event had even a modicum of setup and foreshadowing is enough for me.
Dominican Power
Member
what are these shitty ~~~~ notations suppose to mean on the null scans
~I have no idea~
Whats a null scan. Also hi~=hiiiiii in that stretched way, if you're talking how a lot of people use it?
UltraGunner
Banned
I just got back from watching Ressurection of F. It was a pretty okay movie that followed the standard DBZ formula of "introduce villain, have the Z fighters lose to them, have Goku beat them". I didn't like some of the obvious cg in spots or
at the end, but I still had fun. Also +1 for using Maximum the Hormone.
the bullshit "magically fix everything"
UltraGunner
Banned
It was a midnight showing
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Merry was an asspull of epic proportions but I don't care because EL was so hype. Still, nobody should be trying to rationalize or defend that bullshit like it makes sense.
That is my take
That is my take
We've literally just had pages and pages of writing on why it isn't an asspull. Come up with something better.
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