some writers tend to better when they have limits placed on either by themselves and sometimes by someone, it keeps them from going too bonkers and dumb in a bad way.
Honestly, a lot of writers write better with a limit of some kind. I mean, even One Piece, a series where literally anything can and does happen, has fairly solid limits and milestones that need to be hit.
There's something to be said for laying out even the vaguest milestones for oneself. It's always the series that don't have them or abandon them that go off the rails.
With how demanding serialized manga schedules are, I can get why authors fall apart after a while. If you didn't plan ahead, you'd default back to tropes and formula under the stress, right?
Like look at Toriyama, he can and does write great stuff, but clearly he fell apart during DBZ and defaulted to formula, 'cause that's easy and it sells. Even current One Piece has a lot of formulaic and predictable aspects to it now.
But while most authors try and avoid that, Fairy Tail's just Mashima going "oh, screw it" and going the laziest route. He's said as much.
Well I'll be spending this weekend catching up on Fairy Tail (I'm 100-150ish chapters behind)....I wonder if this will be better or worse then the time I caught up to Bleach (it was 132 chapter catch up if I remember right) about a year before the mange ended. At least It can't possibly piss me off more then Hitman Reoborn's fucking ending......fuck everything about that.
With how demanding serialized manga schedules are, I can get why authors fall apart after a while. If you didn't plan ahead, you'd default back to tropes and formula under the stress, right?
Like look at Toriyama, he can and does write great stuff, but clearly he fell apart during DBZ and defaulted to formula, 'cause that's easy and it sells. Even current One Piece has a lot of formulaic and predictable aspects to it now.
But while most authors try and avoid that, Fairy Tail's just Mashima going "oh, screw it" and going the laziest route. He's said as much.
Defaulting to a formula or using tropes aren't bad things though. Also, if something runs long enough it'll always become predictable because you'll start to understand the author's thought process more and more. Which is essentially people's problem with One Piece these days (we're all generally used to the basic structure of the arcs at this point, so anything that's not another
Marineford
is going to feel like it's already been done).
Like, when Naruto went off the rails it pretty much abandoned it's basic formula and went into
the war arc
. As a result it lost any semblance of structure it may have had. The individual plot points likely would have worked had they been in the same sort of structure Kishi had been using for the rest of the series, but in abandoning that he also lost any sort of basic roadmap to follow plot-wise. As a result everything mishit due to a lack of build up and what should have been powerful moments had readers going "oh well, what the hell."
DBZ fell apart because Toriyama set up benchmarks and either hit them or just plain ignored them. As a result we'd get build up and instead of a climax it'd fall flat and we'd get another round of build up until it fell flat again.
Well, in the Gunbuster universe, faster-than-light travel causes extreme time dilation, so most of the story is about things like spending a few months in space means you miss literal decades back on Earth.
It's that kind of weird.
edit: And oh yeah, I totally forgot about the tennis stuff.
Rave had a lot of the elements that were really overdone in Fairy Tail, like the power of friendship and such, but it wasn't nearly as overdone and the characters and powers were much cooler.
Defaulting to a formula or using tropes aren't bad things though. Also, if something runs long enough it'll always become predictable because you'll start to understand the author's thought process more and more. Which is essentially people's problem with One Piece these days (we're all generally used to the basic structure of the arcs at this point, so anything that's not another
Marineford
is going to feel like it's already been done).
Like, when Naruto went off the rails it pretty much abandoned it's basic formula and went into
the war arc
. As a result it lost any semblance of structure it may have had. The individual plot points likely would have worked had they been in the same sort of structure Kishi had been using for the rest of the series, but in abandoning that he also lost any sort of basic roadmap to follow plot-wise. As a result everything mishit due to a lack of build up and what should have been powerful moments had readers going "oh well, what the hell."
DBZ fell apart because Toriyama set up benchmarks and either hit them or just plain ignored them. As a result we'd get build up and instead of a climax it'd fall flat and we'd get another round of build up until it fell flat again.
I mean like, series like Shippuden and Fairy Tail are formulaic, but they don't have structure, if that makes sense. Individual scenes and events are predictable and rely on clichés, but the overall story doesn't tie together. They're assortments of clichés not made to fit together.
For comparison, while One Piece's overall structure is fine (though the pacing has suffered a lot), a lot of individual moments are formulaic, like
what happens to Pudding is basically the same thing that happened to Hancock and Baby 5
. It has no reason to happen other than it being a One Piece trope.
My Hero Academia's a good counter-example, because it starts out like a conventional battle shounen, but it avoids feeling cliché because writing avoids the things that make them cliché. It's structured and executed well 'despite' being heavy on standard tropes, and so it works.
But faster than light travel doesn't make you travel back in time, it's undefined. (And it's impossible.) But since it's undefined you can do whatever you want for fictional physics, so Gunbuster goes for extreme time dilation instead.
They are still tropes, the word you are looking for is probably cliche or stale, there is almost little originality a lot of things has either been done or inspired by something else what matters at the end of the day is the execution.
Look up tvtropes (or don't really it's a time sucker) there is a trope for everything
I mean like, series like Shippuden and Fairy Tail are formulaic, but they don't have structure, if that makes sense. Individual scenes and events are predictable and rely on clichés, but the overall story doesn't tie together. They're assortments of clichés not made to fit together.
For comparison, while One Piece's overall structure is fine (though the pacing has suffered a lot), a lot of individual moments are formulaic, like
what happens to Pudding is basically the same thing that happened to Hancock and Baby 5
. It has no reason to happen other than it being a One Piece trope.
My Hero Academia's a good counter-example, because it starts out like a conventional battle shounen, but it avoids feeling cliché because writing avoids the things that make them cliché. It's structured and executed well 'despite' being heavy on standard tropes, and so it works.
Shippuden actually does have a fairly rigid structure until the final arc.
mission is assigned
team goes out on mission
fight ensues
draw back and regroup/complete mission
deal with after affects (if mission is done, turn in; if not, then repeat until complete)
That's the sort of thing I'm talking about when I say Shippuden abandoned it's structure. In that framework we have the basic rising action into climax plot structure, which every other plot point is placed around. He has certain points in each arc he has to hit (the above) and in doing that Kishi was forced to graft everything he wanted to do in an arc to that basic framework.
For example, in the Immortals arc he wants to kill Asuma off and show how Shikamaru deals with death for the first time. In that arc the framework repeats twice, thus we have a major and minor climax. The minor being Asuma's death, which acts as part of the build up for the major climax (the Immortals being beaten). Naruto's training, which is the auxiliary plot in the arc, mirrors the major developmental milestones. His training begins the arc, progresses through the initial fight, he gets stuck just as Shikamaru deals with Asuma's death, and his training concludes and the results at about the same time as Shikamaru closing out his character arc for the arc.
Essentially every cannon arc in the series (sans the final arc) follows this same basic structure and everything else is grafted onto it and mirrors the major developments. From there the arcs will generally integrate story milestones (major plot points and revelations). Doing so creates a sense of forward motion for the reader and keeps the arcs from getting monotonous. This is where Fairy Tail goes wrong, as it's arcs have a similar structure but don't have the major milestones to keep the reader feeling like the story is moving forward.
I want to pull this out because I think you've essentially got the wrong read there. It's more like
what happened to Luffy right after Ace died
. She
didn't fall in love, Sanji got a crit on an emotional weakpoint--everyone including Big Mom had made fun of her 3rd eye and made her feel horrible about it, then just as she's expecting it to happen again Sanji does the one thing she never expected and praises it--and left her stunned
. The whole thing was fairly well foreshadowed, I think you might have gotten played by your own expectations there.
I hate the idea of tropes. Everything is tropes! Complaining about tropes is dumb and lazy. That's not where the complaint should be, the complaint should be you asking why said trope didn't land for you and trying to figure that out. That's where the real conversation is to be had.
I figured this was the case.
Well, I kinda forced myself through the Heaven's Arena and Phantom Troupe arcs back in the day ('99 anime), but hadn't appreciated either of them until the second go-through with the 2011 adaptation, which were luckily happening just around the moment I had caught up.
I think Eye Patch Wolf's sentiment on spoilers can indeed hold true for people like me. I watched Death Note like right away when I overheard my friend speak about the type of character it stars, and what happens at the end of the anime. I then considered it a favorite upon finishing. A similar thing applies to both post-Skypiea OP and post-G.I HxH - jumping full-swing into either series as of the arcs mentioned with foreknowledge of their respective endgames (at the time. I haven't really read the latest HxH chapters, and am still on
Dressrosa
in OP).
My taste in these particular shonens may be a bit rigged
That's what I mean by Shippuden having formula but not structure. The arcs are designed in a certain systematic way, but the overall story doesn't make sense. The plot might more foward, but it doesn't move forward in a meaningful way. The plot doesn't make sense either as symbolism or as a natural progression from previous events.
For example, Itachi defeating Orochimaru with Susanoo is a reference to Japanese mythology, but that's all it is. It doesn't make sense for Itachi to have that sword and gourd, it doesn't make sense as a power, and it has nothing to do with the plot other than to get rid of Orochimaru and to be a mythological reference. Naruto's full of meaningless crap like that, and in that sense, the plot has no structure.
...though yeah even that was better than what the final arc ended up being.
I want to pull this out because I think you've essentially got the wrong read there. It's more like
what happened to Luffy right after Ace died
. She
didn't fall in love, Sanji got a crit on an emotional weakpoint--everyone including Big Mom had made fun of her 3rd eye and made her feel horrible about it, then just as she's expecting it to happen again Sanji does the one thing she never expected and praises it--and left her stunned
. The whole thing was fairly well foreshadowed, I think you might have gotten played by your own expectations there.
I can see where you're coming from, but the way I see it, it's just as silly as something from Naruto. There's a possible callback, but it's not a meaningful or consistent one. It's another one of those One Piece clichés.
...and it's hard not to take a leery eye at it once you get cynical about Oda's ability to write any female character.
As I understand it, Susano-o, Tsukuyomi, and Amateratsu are sibling gods in Japanese mythology. Three Uchiha techniques are named after them, but there's no other correlation than that. (I guess Izanagi is the father of these gob siblings, which is another Uchiha technique later). It's really just a naming scheme.
Unrelated: Baihu, Suzaku, Seiryu, and Genbu often show up in stuff as well typically representing seasons or cardinal directions. They were in Kill la Kill for some reason I don't quite remember.
EDIT: I know this has nothing to do with the discussion about plot structure.
Specifically, Susanoo defeats Orochi using a magic sword, and seals him in a gourd. Which is why the same thing happens in Naruto, but it's random otherwise. It's silly. The three powers are only vaguely related to the gods they reference too.
Specifically, Susanoo defeats Orochi using a magic sword, and seals him in a gourd. Which is why the same thing happens in Naruto, but it's random otherwise. It's silly. The three powers are only vaguely related to the gods they reference too.
It's a shame because Rave Master is actually pretty good. From the look of it Hiro gave himself far too much freedom when it comes to Fairy Tail. Rave had specific plot points that had to be hit no matter what else went on and as a result everything had to be written around those points. The Rave stones needed to be collected, Haru needed to unlock all 10 forms of his sword, Ellie had to get her memories back, the bad guy had to be beaten in the end. No matter what he did it had to touch on one of those points, as such the series was far more focused and the stories were generally better told.
With Fairy Tail, there aren't really any plot points like the Rave stones or the ten-form sword. As a result the series as a whole is largely unfocused and meanders quite a bit. This is made worse by the ending, which doesn't pack the same punch as Rave because we haven't been building the road there brick by brick since chapter one.
Also, for someone who writes by the seat of their pants, the plot structure in Rave would force at least a small amount of forward planning. With Fairy Tail he generally has an idea for an arc and does it, with Rave it had to be justified somehow by tying it into one of the above plot points. He just gave himself far too much freedom to do whatever he wanted. For someone like Togashi, who generally plots his stories out meticulously, that's a good thing, but for Hiro it was a detriment.
What I'm saying is he needs to set himself up more like Rave Master next time and have those solid markers he has to hit in every arc.
What's dumb is early on FT had some elements of this (Natsu's attempt to find his father, Lucy attempting to find the 12 summoning keys) but most arcs have nothing to do with either of these goals.
Between this and Steven Universe I am going to be in animation heaven for memorial. And you better bet Ashi's Extra Thicc butt I am going to be on for this marathon.
Naruto might have actually been more fun without so much of an overarching plot tbh
And as much as we like to say "Oda never forgets" or whatever, Oda is just really good at leaving breadcrumbs and disciplined enough to pick up on them later; the names and concepts that he namedrops are almost always vague and fluid enough that he can use them as a jumping-off point for pretty much anything he feels like without a specific time table. Though I do also imagine he has some sort of structure in mind and the individual arcs tend to balloon in size before he manages to get things back on track, with the loose nature of One Piece's story able to accommodate this without feeling like he forgot or got sidetracked even though he probably is in fact getting super fucking sidetracked a lot of the time. Not that it's any less difficult to do or anything.
And as much as we like to say "Oda never forgets" or whatever, Oda is just really good at leaving breadcrumbs and disciplined enough to pick up on them later; the names and concepts that he namedrops are almost always vague and fluid enough that he can use them as a jumping-off point for pretty much anything he feels like without a specific time table.
Right. It's not that he has all these things planned out years in advance with a high level of detail. He understands that characters and plots in a living world don't always center around the current happenings and has this method to lightly "pre-introduce" characters or places before they actually become story relevant, at which point he then fills in the blanks he left before.
Additionally, he seems to do a pretty good job at keeping things internally cohesive. As in, world structure, rules, and character histories in early One Piece still seem to mesh with those of later One Piece - something that Bleach and Naruto falter at.
Right. It's not that he has all these things planned out years in advance with a high level of detail. He understands that characters and plots in a living world don't always center around the current happenings and has this method to lightly "pre-introduce" characters or places before they actually become story relevant, at which point he then fills in the blanks he left before.
Additionally, he seems to do a pretty good job at keeping things internally cohesive. As in, world structure, rules, and character histories in early One Piece still seem to mesh with those of later One Piece - something that Bleach and Naruto falter at.
Bleach had no real plan at least it doesn't feel like
He even admits when he gets stuck he will introduce a bunch of characters and bloat the cast
Which is why you get a bunch of wasted characters and time
We do know Oda has the arcs prewritten before they start because he's posted pictures of the notebooks the scripts are in, but yeah it's breadcrumbs and consistency otherwise.
It's a shame because Rave Master is actually pretty good. From the look of it Hiro gave himself far too much freedom when it comes to Fairy Tail. Rave had specific plot points that had to be hit no matter what else went on and as a result everything had to be written around those points. The Rave stones needed to be collected, Haru needed to unlock all 10 forms of his sword, Ellie had to get her memories back, the bad guy had to be beaten in the end. No matter what he did it had to touch on one of those points, as such the series was far more focused and the stories were generally better told.
With Fairy Tail, there aren't really any plot points like the Rave stones or the ten-form sword. As a result the series as a whole is largely unfocused and meanders quite a bit. This is made worse by the ending, which doesn't pack the same punch as Rave because we haven't been building the road there brick by brick since chapter one.
Also, for someone who writes by the seat of their pants, the plot structure in Rave would force at least a small amount of forward planning. With Fairy Tail he generally has an idea for an arc and does it, with Rave it had to be justified somehow by tying it into one of the above plot points. He just gave himself far too much freedom to do whatever he wanted. For someone like Togashi, who generally plots his stories out meticulously, that's a good thing, but for Hiro it was a detriment.
What I'm saying is he needs to set himself up more like Rave Master next time and have those solid markers he has to hit in every arc.
I like KH1's more deliberate combat even if it is clunkier. I certainly prefer it to KH2. I don't understand how people call that one of the best action RPGs when all you do is press X a bunch and watch Sora do flips and shit (yes even on hardest difficulty, yes even against post-game bosses). At least KH1 required some positioning and timing.
KH1 has a fun light story with the best incorporation of Disney. The rest is trash.
I like KH1's more deliberate combat even if it is clunkier. I certainly prefer it to KH2. I don't understand how people call that one of the best action RPGs when all you do is press X a bunch and watch Sora do flips and shit (yes even on hardest difficulty, yes even against post-game bosses). At least KH1 required some positioning and timing.
KH1 has a fun light story with the best incorporation of Disney. The rest is trash.
If I didn't have to play as Terra, who is frankly just too slow and boring for a KH game, I'd say that BBS was my favorite in the series to run around and fight in.
Even with the deliberate play and awful camera (which is somewhat but not entirely fixed by the PS3/4 versions) I still find KH1 more fun to be in. My only real complaints with KH1 are the first two Disney worlds are awful to navigate, especially Alice in Wonderland.
I like KH1's more deliberate combat even if it is clunkier. I certainly prefer it to KH2. I don't understand how people call that one of the best action RPGs when all you do is press X a bunch and watch Sora do flips and shit (yes even on hardest difficulty, yes even against post-game bosses). At least KH1 required some positioning and timing.
KH1 has a fun light story with the best incorporation of Disney. The rest is trash.
I remember wondering post-KH2 if Nomura would attempt to reel the plot in a bit. Then DDD came out and contained the most nonsensical narrative stuff so far. Not to mention the mobile game stuff which is ??????
Also KH3 was announced nearly 4 years ago and we have like 10 screenshots and less than ten minutes of footage, most of that probably target render stuff.
EDIT: I don't mind how Nomura draws or his style of drawing. But what he chooses to draw (ie designs) is
