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[jaundicejuice]

Number one all time most important question I could come up with: Why open multiplayer as opposed to server side character storage? Surely the team is aware of how badly ravaged Diablo's multiplayer was due to cheating, and for many multiplayer centered players like myself, this will likely severely limit the replayability of the game. I think I know the answer but I'd still like to hear it.

What does it matter if people cheat in a 4 player cooperative dungeon crawling loot game? The way you phrase it, you make it sound like people are aim botting, speed or wall hacking against you, like it directly impacts you somehow. Personally I think it takes all the fun out of the game if you start edit items and what not but so what if someone chooses to compromise their experience like that? You don't have to and you don't have to play with people who do.

Before you ask, no I did not play Diablo back in the day but I have played Torchlight 1/2 and Diablo 3. I do play a lot of online versus multiplayer games, I've had a friend who was a long time, hardcore Diablo fan try to explain it to me and I just don't get it. This is a coop game, not competitive. You play with other people, roll through dungeons, kill stuff and collect loot. It's not like you're playing Counter-Strike and someone on the other team is using hacks against you. Maybe you can try and explain how or why it's such a bad thing but people attempted the same back when the news of Diablo 3's persistent online connection requirements came up and I didn't get it then. At least not within a framework in which it benefited the customer, the cynical business reasons I get. Ugh, I'm sorry I'm making this about Blizzard and Diablo 3.

I'll say this, I'll take Runic's open approach because it allows me to play offline and to have things like mods versus Blizzards curated, walled garden approach which offers its fair share of annoyances, pretty much most of which center around their servers.

 

[Dead Prince]

That's Notch's Cave. An easter egg from the Runic Guys.

second game to do that now then.

 

[dionysus]

Not going to requote it all.

It is not hard to understand. Some people like to win the rat race. People play games for different reasons. If you put 100 hours into gearing out your guy and you want to be recognized for that, it sucks that other people can cheat to get ahead of you.

Does it bother me too much? No, it doesn't directly affect my enjoyment. But then again I feel the game would be better if there was no way to cheat.

 

[Blizzard]

It is not hard to understand. Some people like to win the rat race. People play games for different reasons. If you put 100 hours into gearing out your guy and you want to be recognized for that, it sucks that other people can cheat to get ahead of you.

Does it bother me too much? No, it doesn't directly affect my enjoyment. But then again I feel the game would be better if there was no way to cheat.

Recognized by whom? If you put 100 hours into a character, and you post about it, and you don't cheat, people can still recognize you for spending 100 hours on it.

Personally, I think the game is better for allowing many more options, mods, respecs, custom classes, custom weapons, etc. so the most people possible can enjoy it, rather than attempting to provide a guarantee that (hopefully a smaller number of) people who spend 100 hours on a character can prove they really spent 100 hours on a character. Those people can still play without using any mods if they want, just like people can play on different difficulties if they want. I like Veteran rather than Elite, but I don't want to lock down the game so that Veteran is the only option.

 

[UncleSporky]

Recognized by whom? If you put 100 hours into a character, and you post about it, and you don't cheat, people can still recognize you for spending 100 hours on it.

Personally, I think the game is better for allowing many more options, mods, respecs, custom classes, custom weapons, etc. so the most people possible can enjoy it, rather than attempting to provide a guarantee that (hopefully a smaller number of) people who spend 100 hours on a character can prove they really spent 100 hours on a character. Those people can still play without using any mods if they want, just like people can play on different difficulties if they want. I like Veteran rather than Elite, but I don't want to lock down the game so that Veteran is the only option.

This is not what anyone wants. Diablo 2 was not locked down so that you could only play online with non-modders. You had the option of playing ladder (Blizz hosted) or non-ladder (go online with any hacked character you want).

Diablo 3 is locked down so you can only play online, single player or not, no hacking or modding. Torchlight 2 is "locked down" in the sense that you can only play openly with any number of potentially hacked characters. People don't like either of these. Diablo 2 was the only one of these three to get this particular aspect right.

It's also not just about any guarantee that you spent hundreds of hours - it's also a guarantee that you'll be on even footing with anyone you play with online, you don't have to wonder why it seems like they're doing so much more damage than you, etc. You can be sure that in this particular space, you are experiencing what Runic designed and nothing else, along with everyone else playing hosted characters.

 

[commissar]

I thought someone said earlier that modified characters have a symbol beside their name in multiplayer?
So you know if someone has cheated or not, but can still play with them if you want.

 

[scy]

It's also to just be able to play with random people without having to deal with cheaters. Sure, they're not competing with you but it still ruins an experience.

And, yes, you could just play games with people you know but that limits your online pool to basically ... well, just people you know.

I thought someone said earlier that modified characters have a symbol beside their name in multiplayer? So you know if someone has cheated or not, but can still play with them if you want.

I believe those who have used the console will have their names marked. No idea how this will apply down the road for mods and such, however.

I really want to respec my Engineer out of Coup de Grace/Seismic Slam but I don't want the mark. And I'll probably never play with randoms so I have no idea why I care :x

 

[MagicWithEarvin]

Just hit Act 2 late last night. So, so good.

I haven't found a lot of Embermage abilities I genuinely like so far (just hit 19) but the very first fire ability + Fire Brand + some Charge Mastery is lethal already. I also took Thunder Locus, which is great fire-and-forget damage to throw down near a group of mobs, and I assume will only get even better at tiers 2/3 when it can zap multiple targets.

The other thing I really like: Even this early on in Veteran, I'm already making decisions about what resistances I want. Those extra 40-60 points in Ice Armor I intentionally pumped into my character through item choice saved my ass several times late in Act 1...there were more than a few instances where I was unable to maneuver well and ate something nasty like a couple of ice tornadoes, but barely survived and thought "if I hadn't took that ice armor, I'd have been a corpse."

All that in mind, I'm going to echo the masses and say that anyone remotely familiar with these games should play on Veteran. I'm not usually that dude, but based on my time with the beta + full game, I'd imagine Normal will be a sleepwalk for most.

Veteran is a good starting point for a challenge, IMO.

Also, an as Embermage - you definitely need to put one point into Frost Phase since it'll saw your arse for when you need to teleport away from tough situations. Prismatic Bolts + Thunder Locus + Thunder Brand are great too.

 

[scy]

Prismatic Bolts + Thunder Locus + Thunder Brand are great too.

Could go crazy with Prismatic Bolts and all three Brands.

Can't imagine it's a very fun build, though, what with you basically just spamming Prismatic Bolts from 1 to 100 :x

 

[MagicWithEarvin]

Could go crazy with Prismatic Bolts and all three Brands.

Can't imagine it's a very fun build, though, what with you basically just spamming Prismatic Bolts from 1 to 100 :x

To me, Prismatic Bolts are like my normal attack now. I assigned it to right-click.

They're part of me until the end. @_@

 

[Dice]

Wow guys I just went back to play the original Torchlight and... wow. It is amazing what they have done here and I think it'll really hit you if you go back and load one of your old games (if you had TL1)

 

[UncleSporky]

I thought someone said earlier that modified characters have a symbol beside their name in multiplayer?
So you know if someone has cheated or not, but can still play with them if you want.

Except it does not flag you for using items that you get from shared stash.

Create a cheat character for spawning uniques/sets/socketables, throw it all in shared stash, profit without getting flagged. Or spawn a bunch of high value items and do the same, get rich and gamble a lot with your legit character, whatever.

 

[FtHTiny]

Just beat my first playthough. Act 4 was kinda underwhelming but overall a very enjoyable game.

 

[Recall]

First gloves I got in game, and at level 31 I still use them. Why green and not a blue etc I don't know but I just love all the stats on them:

 

[FtHTiny]

First gloves I got in game, and at level 31 I still use them. Why green and not a blue etc I don't know but I just love all the stats on them:

so low armor, get rid of that crap...

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

First gloves I got in game, and at level 31 I still use them. Why green and not a blue etc I don't know but I just love all the stats on them:

192% stun resistance. Goddamn.

 

[MagicWithEarvin]

Anyone know what the "increased magic luck finding" stat is for?

 

[saelz8]

First gloves I got in game, and at level 31 I still use them. Why green and not a blue etc I don't know but I just love all the stats on them:

Level3GlovesOfTheForever.jpg

Hot Damn!

 

[TheExodu5]

Wow guys I just went back to play the original Torchlight and... wow. It is amazing what they have done here and I think it'll really hit you if you go back and load one of your old games (if you had TL1)

I seriously didn't care for TL1. TL2 is the best loot game I've played, I think.

Pretty huge improvement.

 

[UncleSporky]

Anyone know what the "increased magic luck finding" stat is for?

That is the most important stat, depending on your goals in the game. It generates better magic items, more set items, more uniques etc.

Back in Diablo 2 people had to make hard decisions between playing seriously or running around defenseless with 500% magic find hoping to get better drops before they died

 

[Dennis]

90% on metacritic but what do they know.

I have been busy playing Borderlands 2 but this is the other game to play right now I suppose so I need the verdict from the real experts: GAF.

What is the verdict?

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

90% on metacritic but what do they know.

I have been busy playing Borderlands 2 but this is the other game to play right now I suppose so I need the verdict from the real experts: GAF.

What is the verdict?

A miserable pile of opinions.

 

[didamangi]

Wow, Grom's Arena just kick my butt hard. Running around like crazy with endless mobs with nowhere to go.

 

[Dice]

Normal is definitely too easy for a Berserker, or at least when you maximize power like I'm doing. There is probably a lot of wiggle room on normal for people who want to be more about style than efficiency. I think they thought that out pretty well. Anyway, I'll roll with it just for the experience and let loot carry over.

I'm not sure when the crew that played last night will want to be playing again, but I'll save my Outlander for them if they want to play again. When I'm done with these games I'm looking forward to playing veteran as an Embermage. A lot of games fuck up the mage but after these other characters I trust Ruinic. I'll be familiar with enemy patterns have a general idea of what elementals to defend against in different areas, so I should be safe but relatively challenged.

And of course we have the random dungeons and mods and whatnot to look forward to, so even after hitting 100 there should be plenty of fun left to be had, especially with others! I just hope they can work out whatever the performance issues are. It is somewhat of a damper on the multiplayer.

First gloves I got in game, and at level 31 I still use them. Why green and not a blue etc I don't know but I just love all the stats on them:

http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz131/RecallBerserk/Gloves_zps814b9961.jpg

MY BERSERKER LONGS FOR THESE

 

[TheExodu5]

90% on metacritic but what do they know.

I have been busy playing Borderlands 2 but this is the other game to play right now I suppose so I need the verdict from the real experts: GAF.

What is the verdict?

Besides the lack of closed online and a few small control problems: best loot game out there, IMO.

The action is great.
The encounters and enemies are varied.
Skills are (mostly) awesome.
Plenty of possible builds.
Tons of great loot (best loot I've seen in any loot game, really).
Randomized optional sidequests.
Post-game content (maps, new game+).

After Diablo 3 failed to ignite any excitment with its loot, Torchlight 2 is a treat.

 

[UncleSporky]

Plenty of possible builds.

You know what, I'm not really feeling this. Too many skills seem absolutely essential for a given character in Veteran difficulty or higher. Every engineer will have a healbot. Every outlander will use one or both of the pacts. Every berserker will use one or more health leech skills to stay alive. Every embermage will have magma spear or prismatic whatever. Everyone will make heavy use of a lot of their passives.

Actually it seems like only engineer has three well-defined builds/trees. The choices are mainly dual wielding or not for every class. I suppose any character could choose to be a summoner or not, but that feels minor. Everyone has a couple very specific buffs/debuffs that they'd be foolish not to take advantage of heavily.

 

[scy]

First gloves I got in game, and at level 31 I still use them. Why green and not a blue etc I don't know but I just love all the stats on them:

The +18 Health enchantment makes it a keeper.

 

[MagicWithEarvin]

That is the most important stat, depending on your goals in the game. It generates better magic items, more set items, more uniques etc.

Back in Diablo 2 people had to make hard decisions between playing seriously or running around defenseless with 500% magic find hoping to get better drops before they died

Great, I've got some gear that boosts my percentage in luck. Going to try and boost it up some more.

 

[Einbroch]

I want this game so bad...but I don't know if I need it. Wahh.

 

[UncleSporky]

Do these things actually exist as drops in the game? If they do, presumably you wouldn't get cheat-flagged for using one...again, you could spawn a bunch, put them in shared stash, and lord over the masses with your "legit" character.

 

[Dennis]

Besides the lack of closed online and a few small control problems: best loot game out there, IMO.

The action is great.
The encounters and enemies are varied.
Skills are (mostly) awesome.
Plenty of possible builds.
Tons of great loot (best loot I've seen in any loot game, really).
Randomized optional sidequests.
Post-game content (maps, new game+).

After Diablo 3 failed to ignite any excitment with its loot, Torchlight 2 is a treat.

Sounds good. Game is pretty cheap too. Finding the time to play is the problem......

 

[Toma]

I want this game so bad...but I don't know if I need it. Wahh.

You do. Believe me, you do. I am about to put TL2 above D2, all things considered.

 

[MasterShotgun]

The game is trolling me today. Every single unique that dropped so far has been a two handed-weapon (one was a repeat of something I got last night). Everything else has either sucked or been an incremental upgrade.

 

[TheExodu5]

You know what, I'm not really feeling this. Too many skills seem absolutely essential for a given character in Veteran difficulty or higher. Every engineer will have a healbot. Every outlander will use one or both of the pacts. Every berserker will use one or more health leech skills to stay alive. Every embermage will have magma spear or prismatic whatever. Everyone will make heavy use of a lot of their passives.

Actually it seems like only engineer has three well-defined builds/trees. The choices are mainly dual wielding or not for every class. I suppose any character could choose to be a summoner or not, but that feels minor. Everyone has a couple very specific buffs/debuffs that they'd be foolish not to take advantage of heavily.

I have plenty of choice to make for my tank & spankgineer:

Do I grab Aegis and Forcefield? Or one over the other?
Do I max Overload or keep it at one point? If I do do I combine it with Dynamo Field and Fire and Spark?
Do I max Tremor for damage taken and reduced debuffs?
Do I max Ember Reach for the max damage taken debuff?
Do I want either Onslaught or (the charge skill...can't remember the name) for initiating and escape?
Do I go with Ember Hammer and Fire and Spark for my main damage dealing skill?
Do I focus on elemental damage and Fire Bash?
Do I want to put in the 15 passive points for the added damage from Sword & Board?
Do I want additional healing from Charge Reconstitution?

Actually, since my build is incredibly mana light, Healbot isn't completely necessary. It is nice to have though, since I don't have to worry about using mana pots. But I would actually be better off without it, theoretically (Charge Reconstitution is a better heal since I could use it with ForceField when my health is low). Healbot is more of a convenience thing.

The only absolutely necessary skill for sword & shield engineer is Supercharge, IMO.

edit: actually, you can skip Supercharge if your focus is on Shield Bash for DPS.

 

[RazorEdge]

So I play an engineer and until now (lvl 12) I just skilled the passive weapon skill (dont remember the name now) and mostly strength and vitality and sometimes the other two.

What are you guys skilling? What is good?

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

You do. Believe me, you do. I am about to put TL2 above D2, all things considered.

DAMN

The game really is incredible.

 

[Interfectum]

This game is the best loot game I've ever played. Charming, fun, great loot, great flow thanks to the pet system, etc. Can't stop playing it!

 

[TheExodu5]

You do. Believe me, you do. I am about to put TL2 above D2, all things considered.

I am hard pressed to disagree. Pretty sure I like this better than D2. Builds are more interesting. Loot is more exciting. Difficulty seems better (on Veteran)...no stupid shit like MHLE, or bugged Tomb Vipers and Burning Souls.

If only it had closed online. Damn you Runic!

So I play an engineer and until now (lvl 12) I just skilled the passive weapon skill (dont remember the name now) and mostly strength and vitality and sometimes the other two.

What are you guys skilling? What is good?

Supercharge is a necessity if you rely on normal weapon attacks most of the time.

 

[Fugu]

What does it matter if people cheat in a 4 player cooperative dungeon crawling loot game? The way you phrase it, you make it sound like people are aim botting, speed or wall hacking against you, like it directly impacts you somehow. Personally I think it takes all the fun out of the game if you start edit items and what not but so what if someone chooses to compromise their experience like that? You don't have to and you don't have to play with people who do.

Before you ask, no I did not play Diablo back in the day but I have played Torchlight 1/2 and Diablo 3. I do play a lot of online versus multiplayer games, I've had a friend who was a long time, hardcore Diablo fan try to explain it to me and I just don't get it. This is a coop game, not competitive. You play with other people, roll through dungeons, kill stuff and collect loot. It's not like you're playing Counter-Strike and someone on the other team is using hacks against you. Maybe you can try and explain how or why it's such a bad thing but people attempted the same back when the news of Diablo 3's persistent online connection requirements came up and I didn't get it then. At least not within a framework in which it benefited the customer, the cynical business reasons I get. Ugh, I'm sorry I'm making this about Blizzard and Diablo 3.

I'll say this, I'll take Runic's open approach because it allows me to play offline and to have things like mods versus Blizzards curated, walled garden approach which offers its fair share of annoyances, pretty much most of which center around their servers.

Well, to start, since you said yourself that you didn't have much experience with Diablo (2), what you should know is that Diablo 2 has both an open and a closed multiplayer option: the open mode lets you use your single-player character online and (technically) allows you to host a modded game, so you can play mods in multiplayer and be exposed to literally anything that's possible within the game's engine; the closed portion stores your character online and requires you to reference your game with the official patch version at all times, so you can only play the unmodified, regulated version of the game. Torchlight 2 is only offering the "open" option; Diablo 3 only offers the "closed" option. Diablo 2's closed option had at least a hundred times the amount of players that the open option did, and that ratio got even wider as the game got older.

The fundamental thing that makes the closed option more compelling than the open option for long-term multiplayer is that allowing players to do whatever they want with their characters instantly and permanently devalues anything legitimate you do with your character. In that sense, for a multiplayer-oriented person like myself, there's not really much incentive to build an amazing character and set so-called "perfect" item goals when I know that the game actually gives players the tools to create this character without ever really playing the game. It's not quite a simple as all that, however. What's more important is that it means that there are any number of other like-minded players that are thinking to themselves that there's no use in valuing anything found in the game because mod tools make it pointless to "compete" (not in the esports kind of way but in the "I'm useful in a co-op game" kind of way) while playing legitimately. As a result, the powerful trade economy that fueled Diablo 2 and kept people playing it a decade after its release (visit a website called d2jsp) will never form; the open nature gives everything, whether it is found legitimately or not, a value of 0 in the macro economy. This is irrelevant to people who will only play single-player or with their friends but it makes players like myself who played Diablo 2 well past its intended life span almost entirely on the basis of accumulating wealth and powerful characters -- of which there are many -- stuck. Yes, mods are nice (I've played a lot of Diablo 2 mods), but they don't have the same long-term appeal.

Recognized by whom? If you put 100 hours into a character, and you post about it, and you don't cheat, people can still recognize you for spending 100 hours on it.

Personally, I think the game is better for allowing many more options, mods, respecs, custom classes, custom weapons, etc. so the most people possible can enjoy it, rather than attempting to provide a guarantee that (hopefully a smaller number of) people who spend 100 hours on a character can prove they really spent 100 hours on a character. Those people can still play without using any mods if they want, just like people can play on different difficulties if they want. I like Veteran rather than Elite, but I don't want to lock down the game so that Veteran is the only option.

I addressed most of what this post is arguing in the first part of my post, but regarding customization, you should know that Diablo 2 has a ton of mods, ranging from mods that attempt to create new areas (one of them gives you a Diablo 1-esque 16 floor dungeon) to total conversion mods (Median XL is probably the most popular, Hell on Earth 2 is my favorite); having a closed multiplayer option does not necessarily prevent the development of mods unless it's the only option, and I'm certainly not advocating that.

 

[Einbroch]

You do. Believe me, you do. I am about to put TL2 above D2, all things considered.

wat.

Dammit.

 

[Ikuu]

It's a good game, but I'd give it more than 4 days before comparing it to other games.

 

[Dennis]

wat.

Dammit.

Maybe he meant D3.

Deflation.

 

[scy]

You know what, I'm not really feeling this. Too many skills seem absolutely essential for a given character in Veteran difficulty or higher. Every engineer will have a healbot. Every outlander will use one or both of the pacts. Every berserker will use one or more health leech skills to stay alive. Every embermage will have magma spear or prismatic whatever. Everyone will make heavy use of a lot of their passives.

Actually it seems like only engineer has three well-defined builds/trees. The choices are mainly dual wielding or not for every class. I suppose any character could choose to be a summoner or not, but that feels minor. Everyone has a couple very specific buffs/debuffs that they'd be foolish not to take advantage of heavily.

A lot of builds seem to pretty much be mostly passives. Actives tend to be limited. That's probably my largest complaint so far with the skill trees: So many worthwhile passives. An odd complaint, I suppose...

It also doesn't help that there doesn't seem to be any really amazing resource for skill values so a lot of builds right now are just planned out as max these skills and maybe some one-point wonders since there's nothing to check on (e.g., skills that scale with level, how important are five, ten, etc. more points in it vs the base per level rate?).

That said, I'm really torn on my Tundra Berserker :/ I think this build will need to wait for some more time with the game in general to figure out how I want the passives to go.

 

[TheExodu5]

Well, to start, since you said yourself that you didn't have much experience with Diablo (2), what you should know is that Diablo 2 has both an open and a closed multiplayer option: the open mode lets you use your single-player character online and (technically) allows you to host a modded game, so you can play mods in multiplayer and be exposed to literally anything that's possible within the game's engine; the closed portion stores your character online and requires you to reference your game with the official patch version at all times, so you can only play the unmodified, regulated version of the game. Torchlight 2 is only offering the "open" option; Diablo 3 only offers the "closed" option. Diablo 2's closed option had at least a hundred times the amount of players that the open option did, and that ratio got even wider as the game got older.

The fundamental thing that makes the closed option more compelling than the open option for long-term multiplayer is that allowing players to do whatever they want with their characters instantly and permanently devalues anything legitimate you do with your character. In that sense, for a multiplayer-oriented person like myself, there's not really much incentive to build an amazing character and set so-called "perfect" item goals when I know that the game actually gives players the tools to create this character without ever really playing the game. It's not quite a simple as all that, however. What's more important is that it means that there are any number of other like-minded players that are thinking to themselves that there's no use in valuing anything found in the game because mod tools make it pointless to "compete" (not in the esports kind of way but in the "I'm useful in a co-op game" kind of way) while playing legitimately. As a result, the powerful trade economy that fueled Diablo 2 and kept people playing it a decade after its release (visit a website called d2jsp) will never form; the open nature gives everything, whether it is found legitimately or not, a value of 0 in the macro economy. This is irrelevant to people who will only play single-player or with their friends but it makes players like myself who played Diablo 2 well past its intended life span almost entirely on the basis of accumulating wealth and powerful characters -- of which there are many -- stuck. Yes, mods are nice (I've played a lot of Diablo 2 mods), but they don't have the same long-term appeal.

Agreed. Well said.

It is such a shame that closed online was omitted from Torchlight 2. It's the only thing that doesn't automatically propell this game into the stratosphere past Diablo 2.

A lot of builds seem to pretty much be mostly passives. Actives tend to be limited. That's probably my largest complaint so far with the skill trees: So many worthwhile passives. An odd complaint, I suppose...

It also doesn't help that there doesn't seem to be any really amazing resource for skill values so a lot of builds right now are just planned out as max these skills and maybe some one-point wonders since there's nothing to check on (e.g., skills that scale with level, how important are five, ten, etc. more points in it vs the base per level rate?).

That said, I'm really torn on my Tundra Berserker :/ I think this build will need to wait for some more time with the game in general to figure out how I want the passives to go.

The engineer has a ton of useful actives. The main reason I focus mostly on passives is that juggling 7+ active skills can get to be a little cumbersome. There can definitely be good reasons to picking up lower level utility skills, even if you leave them at level 1 or level 5.

 

[Toma]

Maybe he meant D3.

Deflation.

Being better than D3 isnt really a feat. Especially the replayability and long term motivation is leagues ahead in TL2, but as TheExodu5 said:

I am hard pressed to disagree. Pretty sure I like this better than D2. Builds are more interesting. Loot is more exciting. Difficulty seems better (on Veteran)...no stupid shit like MHLE, or bugged Tomb Vipers and Burning Souls.

If only it had closed online. Damn you Runic!

There are quite a few areas which this game excels in and neat little features that simply give TL2 plus points here (MapWorks for example or the Pet system). Not to speak of the technical level (resolution, easy mp access/setup)

One thing I liked better in D2 was the design of the interior levels (especially the cathedral), but thats more of a personal preference. A few other things I am missing are the runes (and as others said, the closed multiplayer), but ah well, as I said TL2 has many other areas going for it.

 

[Fugu]

A lot of builds seem to pretty much be mostly passives. Actives tend to be limited. That's probably my largest complaint so far with the skill trees: So many worthwhile passives. An odd complaint, I suppose...

It also doesn't help that there doesn't seem to be any really amazing resource for skill values so a lot of builds right now are just planned out as max these skills and maybe some one-point wonders since there's nothing to check on (e.g., skills that scale with level, how important are five, ten, etc. more points in it vs the base per level rate?).

That said, I'm really torn on my Tundra Berserker :/ I think this build will need to wait for some more time with the game in general to figure out how I want the passives to go.

There's something wonky with the scaling that you get from putting multiple skill points into actives. It creates this bizarre scenario where you have active, damaging skills that are more viable at endgame with one point than your normal attack. As far as the Outlander goes, it's almost difficult to rationalize maxing most of the active skills. Shadowshot would probably be worth maxing if it weren't so inconsistent/buggy; other than that, the other contenders would be venomous hail and maybe flaming glaives if aiming it weren't so damn hard. For the attacks that improve mostly in damage, the long range mastery skill almost always provides a more significant boost to your damage.

It's worth noting as well that the Outlander has a lot of "five point wonders" that develop a new ability at Tier I that scales in subsequent tiers. Prominent examples of this are the stone pact and repulsion hex, both of which I think we'll see people putting five points into to get the baseline benefit. Hell, I may even max repulsion hex because I have no idea what I'm going to do with 150 points.

Having said that, I am completely ignoring all bat-related skills, so they may change the specific viablitiy of the upper tiers of certain skills.

Agreed. Well said.

It is such a shame that closed online was omitted from Torchlight 2. It's the only thing that doesn't automatically propell this game into the stratosphere past Diablo 2.

While I'm really, really enjoying Torchlight 2, I think that the lack of closed multiplayer will prevent it from even competing with Diablo 2. It's certainly much better than any hack-and-slash I've played in years, though. It might be my favorite non-Diablo 1/2 game in the genre, but only time will tell.

 

[TheExodu5]

While I'm really, really enjoying Torchlight 2, I think that the lack of closed multiplayer will prevent it from even competing with Diablo 2. It's certainly much better than any hack-and-slash I've played in years, though. It might be my favorite non-Diablo 1/2 game in the genre, but only time will tell.

Completely understandable. It really does diminish from the excitement of finding good loot.

The best we can do is ignore mods/trainers and play with like minded players.

 

[Blizzard]

If they wanted to offer a closed multiplayer option that's fine with me since I'd very likely only want to play with friends regardless, and wouldn't need it. I guess I sort of like the gameplay/item finding, and the comparing to the internet aspect doesn't bother me as much, so maybe that's why I feel this way.

I wonder if I'm in the minority for being rather against an item economy and real money item trading. I don't want every game to turn into TF2 with item dropping/selling/trading/microtransactions...which I realize sounds hilarious since that sort of mechanic presumably came from MMO's to begin with.

 

[Alchemy]

It isn't hard to be a better game then Diablo 2, Diablo 3 really just killed itself with the loot reward loop. I would say that Torchlight 2 is definitely a better game then Diablo 2. Will it live as long as Diablo 2 did? No way in hell, but Diablo 2 had far less competition for multiplayer online games then TL2 does.

 

[Toma]

If they wanted to offer a closed multiplayer option that's fine with me since I'd very likely only want to play with friends regardless, and wouldn't need it.

I wonder if I'm in the minority for being rather against an item economy and real money item trading. I don't want every game to turn into TF2 with item dropping/selling/trading/microtransactions...which I realize sounds hilarious since that sort of mechanic presumably came from MMO's to begin with.

I fully agree. The more I played D3, the more I hated the monetization and how the game was developed around it.