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Torchlight II |OT| Good things come to those who wait
- Thread starter jim-jam bongs
- Start date
Mentally I take this a step further, too - I don't see the point of mods, and/or mods are always in the back of my mind as that option you could always take to destroy the game. "Why are you playing this game normally? You could download some kid's totally broken mod with the recolored Prismatic Bolt that kills everything in one hit and forces enemies to drop uniques when killed by it."
Of course the answer is that it's no fun. But then, what is fun? How in the world do you strike that balance? If I use any mods at all, I'm changing the way Runic designed the game. If I make it any easier then I've cheapened the base game and wasted all this time I've spent at regular difficulties; if I make it any harder then I'm wasting my own time for no good reason when I could just be playing the game the way Runic designed it.
Take the simple respec potion. I mod that in, and maybe I artificially make it cost 10,000 gold and you can only buy it in act 3 and up. Well, why didn't I make it available sooner? It's desirable, isn't it? Why don't I make it cheaper? And yet just by its very existence, it means I'll never start a character class from scratch again. Heck, maybe somebody will make a class/gender/name change potion and we'll only ever have to make one character.
Even if you don't find stuff like that fun, the fact remains that it exists, and using it would mean saving a lot of time spinning your wheels. Paradoxically, it is both fun to be challenged and fun to watch and feel your character advance quickly.
Myself, I just want the game Runic designed, and I honestly think it'd be easier and better if everyone else did, too. It's why Diablo 2 ladder worked.
I look at it like this. If you got a Lego set would you build what the set was for, or just go use the bricks to build whatever you wanted?
Both are perfectly okay, but you do not see the instruction following people shouting at the other group the way people do when it comes to using mods they think ruin the game.
I have sinned... I gamble glitched. Mix of fun and guilt.
Seeing some of the uniques for Engineers really make me question my Engie build. Been putting most of my points into Strength and Vitality, and just a few points into Focus because I was having mana issues. Some of the uniques I was getting were calling for high-ish Dexterity and higher Focus. I haven't put anything in Dexterity at all. I wonder if Dex is good for the 2 hander build or maybe a dual wielding engineer (is that even viable?).
Seeing some of the uniques for Engineers really make me question my Engie build. Been putting most of my points into Strength and Vitality, and just a few points into Focus because I was having mana issues. Some of the uniques I was getting were calling for high-ish Dexterity and higher Focus. I haven't put anything in Dexterity at all. I wonder if Dex is good for the 2 hander build or maybe a dual wielding engineer (is that even viable?).
THIS really makes me question my build too. I'm a sword and board engineer and I've been putting points into Passives and a few skills. Shield Bash for Charge building, Healbot, and Forcefield. The rest of my points are in Supercharged, Sword and Board, and I have 5 points into Aegis (the passive). So basically, I don't do any flat elemental DPS really, I go for the auto-attack weapon damage.
I have zero dex on my focus engineer.
I raised Str to 100 then the rest was all Vit and Focus. My gear has a ton of focus on it at the moment as well.
Decided to gear for +health & Health regen gems. Then fire dmg+focus as I could get them.
plasticpassion
Member
Does anyone want to join my game? Going to play for the next few hours. I'm level 19 in the Watchweald Temple. PM me or let me know in this thread.
It's very good and like most passives it scales linearly so it's solid to raise it all the way up to lvl 15. I use it on both my cannon engi and my 2 handed engi.
MagicWithEarvin
Member
That's badass! Stats?
Here's the set!
I wear everything except the necklace. It's done me well, and I hope I can wear it for a while for the effort it took to get it.
IblisGinjo
Member
Just finished the main game. 38 hours on Veteran, Level 48 using mainly duel pistols, rapid fire and cursed daggers throughout the game. I used rune vault early on to get out of trouble quick. Solid game, KB+M was okay but if I had a controller I could see myself using more skills easily and leaping and dodging around enemies more accurately. I ran through most of the dungeons in Act 3(racing to the bosses and avoiding enemies) and cheesed my way on the last couple of bosses.
I wanted to finish it up before X-Com and Dishonored next week, I may go back and play the
Mapworks levels
MagicWithEarvin
Member
Man, you guys got some nice gear as Outlanders. Dual wielding pistols looks like fun, I may have to try it out.
Also, did that gambling trick get patched yet? I want to try it out at least once... >_>
Also, did that gambling trick get patched yet? I want to try it out at least once... >_>
How is the focus build working out for you? I've been mucking round with the console a bit trying to figure out the best type of character and for an Engi, the focus build is definitely the best damage dealer. Bit worried about not being able to equip the majority of equipment because of strength requirements, although I see you chucked 100 points into strength which balances you out a bit.
Are you using 2 handers or sword and board?
kiting seems like it is not working properly in TL2 due to the shitty enemy pop-in in the game. Enemies often dissapear or do not show from view even if they are in the actual screen.
is there a setting to reduce pop-in?
have settings at max
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
I could have sworn this was something you could mess with in the ini file of the first Torchlight. Maybe it's possible in this as well?
I love how you make it sound like it is a fact, not an opinion.
You can kite with a Wizard. You just need to be great, and have a proper skill-setup AND an apm that is sufficient for it. Also quite some IAS. I did that for a month or two (before switching to melee wizard), was great. Can be frustrating sometimes, but it is part of the game. Just like getting two-shotted on Elite with bullshit stuff.
sword and board. as you get closer to the end of the game that 100 STR will not cut it anymore for equipment requirements. It is mainly for getting you through until you get your healbots mana bonus and Emberquake. I just wait out the level requirements at this point.
I think I used the auto attack 4-5 times total in this last lvl 80+ map I ran. I can spam my abilities and never really worry about mana unless I hold down the emberquake button.
I am doing an absolute ton of damage. I see lots of high 4 digit numbers from my basic AOE and DOTs and Emberquake hits for a truckload. I think I saw a 50K at some point.
This build is just wrecking things beyond belief.
Dex is fine. I put about 100 points into it and I think just about any class and any build should.
Vitality is pretty terrible. I've not put a single point it and the only problems it has caused me is I need to wait to equip armor with VIT requirements. You're better off just using Forcefield to defend yourself, as has been said a bunch of times already.
UncleSporky
Member
This isn't my hangup at all. I have no problem with building things with Lego sets, and I have no problem building things in Minecraft or Dwarf Fortress, and modding the hell out of either of them. They don't have a 100 hour goal in mind that I can save time on. They aren't challenging such that this is a major intent of the game, which could be tweaked either way.
The post I was replying to was in regard to difficulties not providing any incentive. Just as Elite mode takes much longer than other difficulties without good incentive for doing so, playing the base game takes much longer than simply modding. There's no incentive to play the game normally other than calling yourself a purist, which nobody cares about.
You mod, or else you're a fool wasting your time trying to farm uniques over the course of days, when it could just be taking a few hours.
When I said it'd be easier if others didn't use mods, I wasn't shouting at the group of people who do. Others can play the game any way they like. I meant it'd mainly be easier for myself, not having that choice of a billion tiny (or massive) tweaks, not knowing that others are out there, reaping vast benefits that I'm not, and they're not cheating either. I don't begrudge them that, but it makes me want to join them...but I don't want to join them, I want to play the game Runic made.
Do you ever get that feeling? You understand what I mean about feeling incentive to do one thing or another?
For me the best share iss 2ST, 1DX, 2VIT. At least for a shield basher tanky engie like me. Vit is good for armor and for Aegis, combined with Forcefield is the closest thing to immortality you can get.
UncleSporky
Member
BTW There are people complaining on the Runic forums right now about others using hacked +XP gear online, because that effect is shared with other players, so they'll run up to you and kill a monster and suddenly you're 4 levels higher.
So watch yourselves if you don't want to be forced to level up, I guess.
So watch yourselves if you don't want to be forced to level up, I guess.
What trick? Speak!
edit:nvm I found it. too cheesy but will try it out once
edit2: yep, still works
PuppetSlave
Member
Ughh, I want an legendary to drop. I am in game++ and am level 73. 30+ hours played.
Starting to feel like I have gotten my moneys worth out of this game but feels like I can't move on from this game until one drops.
Starting to feel like I have gotten my moneys worth out of this game but feels like I can't move on from this game until one drops.
What? It is a fact. Blizzard even addressed it and called it a design choice. Having the game intentionally lie to you about almost every hitbox in the game is the antithesis of fidelity. Whether you like it or not is one thing; however, the matter of accuracy and the disparity between what appears to be happening and what is actually happening is an objective one. Blizzard claims they did it to prevent people from making unearned or inconsistent progress in the game through maneuvering. I am honestly surprised to hear people say that they support this position, particularly considering there is literally zero precedent for it in the genre.
That's too bad. I've been mucking around in pub games recently because the early levels go much faster with some people.
Forcefield alone is basically the closest thing to immortality you can get.
The healing potion drink animation won't play if you're doing something else. That isn't quite the same as the game not being able to register two keys being pressed at once.
Being a staunch believer that the first Torchlight is a shallow, awful excuse forba loot game I must say I have been surprised by the jump in quality fron Torchlight 2.
Of course the game really shines on Elite difficulty as my berserker. They managed to perfectly capture the feel of a fast moving hit and run style melee character and make it completely viable if you're precise and aware of the situation. Its a huge difference from how panicked the monk always felt in D3;because enemies could hit you no matter what once their animations started and mobility skills had minimal invincibility frames you really couldn't ever feel -fast-.
My shadow/electric berserker feels extremely fast. It also helps that I have to manage howl, storm claw, shadow bind, ice shield, battle rage, (soon battle standard) while diving around with Shadow Burst and nuking/charge building with Storm axes. There's a lot of satisfaction managing all your abilities properly and watching red wolf/storm claw eat an entire 2 player elite spawn. Never has an 'autoattack' build felt so good.
As someone that's played virtually every loot based arpg available they've really nailed down the tension in melee properly; also elite difficulty with two people feels genuinely challenging with completely insane numbers of enemies during some encounters.
Of course the game really shines on Elite difficulty as my berserker. They managed to perfectly capture the feel of a fast moving hit and run style melee character and make it completely viable if you're precise and aware of the situation. Its a huge difference from how panicked the monk always felt in D3;because enemies could hit you no matter what once their animations started and mobility skills had minimal invincibility frames you really couldn't ever feel -fast-.
My shadow/electric berserker feels extremely fast. It also helps that I have to manage howl, storm claw, shadow bind, ice shield, battle rage, (soon battle standard) while diving around with Shadow Burst and nuking/charge building with Storm axes. There's a lot of satisfaction managing all your abilities properly and watching red wolf/storm claw eat an entire 2 player elite spawn. Never has an 'autoattack' build felt so good.
As someone that's played virtually every loot based arpg available they've really nailed down the tension in melee properly; also elite difficulty with two people feels genuinely challenging with completely insane numbers of enemies during some encounters.
a) The attacks are in TWO different categories. One that do not have a hitbox attached to them: if you trigger it, you will eat the damage. Two: if you manage to move out of their hitbox before they finish, you eat zero damage. Those are heavily telegraphed attacks. Managing this is part of the gameplay, like it or not.
b) "particularly considering there is literally zero precedent for it in the genre." Why should that matter? Diablo III is not really a pure contender in the "arpg" market, I would not consider even looking around in the genre if games could only use elements that have had precedents for them in previous games (which is a paradox in itself - where did the first game come from? Was it allowed to make a precedent?
).c) "Zero fidelity gameplay" is still not a fact. It is a label you came up with, in order to dismiss its gameplay on the fly. Which is fine, but it is what it is.
ScrabbleBanshee
Member
God, I realize I can just play this game and enjoy it but I hate when I feel like I have to pull out calculators and do a weekend of research to choose the right stats and skills in a game... to me, that's not fun - it's work.
I've been too into guild wars 2 to really get back into tl2 too much (kind of stopped at lv30) but I recall reading you can't do a full respec at any point which always makes me nervous I'm going to make a game breaking bad decision.
Anyway I shouldn't complain because I complained about D3s total lack of any skill commitment and I know you can't have it both ways. I also realize that some people really enjoy agonizing over choosing every stat - that's obvious just looking at some of the posts in here.
At any rate I'm just going to keep choosing skills and stats however my gut tells me when I level and hope for the best cause I really don't have the time or inclination to treat it any differently.
I've been too into guild wars 2 to really get back into tl2 too much (kind of stopped at lv30) but I recall reading you can't do a full respec at any point which always makes me nervous I'm going to make a game breaking bad decision.
Anyway I shouldn't complain because I complained about D3s total lack of any skill commitment and I know you can't have it both ways. I also realize that some people really enjoy agonizing over choosing every stat - that's obvious just looking at some of the posts in here.
At any rate I'm just going to keep choosing skills and stats however my gut tells me when I level and hope for the best cause I really don't have the time or inclination to treat it any differently.
Regardless of how shitty the hit-boxes are in Diablo 3, people can still prefer the combat in D3 due to the how it feels. The ability to kite in D3 is still there, but it's much more strict because only some attacks are dodge able, and most must be avoided by staying out of melee range. Do I wish Diablo 3 was responsive as TL2 in terms of hitboxes? Sure. That doesn't mean I can't prefer D3's combat for other reasons. There's no need to be pompous about other people's preferences about the combat systems.
a) The attacks are in TWO different categories. One that do not have a hitbox attached to them: if you trigger it, you will eat the damage. Two: if you manage to move out of their hitbox before they finish, you eat zero damage. Those are heavily telegraphed attacks. Managing this is part of the gameplay, like it or not.
b) "particularly considering there is literally zero precedent for it in the genre." Why should that matter? Diablo III is not really a pure contender in the "arpg" market, I would not consider even looking around in the genre if games could only use elements that have had precedents for them in previous games (which is a paradox in itself - where did the first game come from? Was it allowed to make a precedent?
c) "Zero fidelity gameplay" is still not a fact. It is a label you came up with, in order to dismiss its gameplay on the fly. Which is fine, but it is what it is.
That's really what ruins the game for me. Enemies move faster than my witch doctor. Slow skills don't affect enemy champions (why do I even get slowing abilities knowing they become useless end-game?). It's simply impossible for me to kill champions without taking a hit.
You'll be hard pressed for anyone to say this is a good thing. You seem to be saying this is a subjective point...but I don't see too many people defending this, besides Blizzard.
The only reason it is how it is is to turn ranged combat into a stats battle, which helps them generate item sales for ranged characters.
UncleSporky
Member
There's not even a need to agonize, you just put every point into strength or every point into focus and you're done.
Every class is easy.Dex has diminishing returns and vit doesn't actually make you any more survivable unless you have a shield, and even then it's not that great.
I know to maximize damage it can be good to have 100 points in dex by the late game, but you can stat for that. I have 100 points at level 56 without even trying and I've never put a single point into dex.
Did you try Diablo 3 with 1.0.4? Where they almost doubled the speed of most WD attacks?
I have a shy 12% movement speed and something between 1.5-1.6 attack speed, and I have no issues using spirit barrage, acid cloud or firebomb, they work fast, I can kite just fine.
I am sure if we want to end up in the realms of "should this property go away for all attacks", then yes, the vast majority of people would vote yes - and they might, at one point or not. But Blizzard decided to make a game where you just simply cannot ignore certain enemies and their damage - and personally, I have no issues with that. "Do not get hit" gets out of the window anyway, when we have mobs like vortex, waller and teleport - therefore one needs to work on what actually happens when you DO get hit. And still, Item AH makes Blizzard no money, and the glass cannon builds still totally ignore that according to some on forums, one is supposed to breath all resist and high vit, otherwise it is pointless. It is clearly not.
I prefer the fluidity and responsiveness of the D3 combat. I click and what I'm trying to do happens. T2 is a little unresponsive in comparison. I greatly prefer the D3 combat overall.
I have 12% movement speed and a 1.4 attack speed weapon (with a bit of attack speed gear as well). I use Spirit Barrage. Champions are simply not kitable. They'll always catch up, because my Grasp barely slows them, and my Spirit Walk can't stay off cooldown forever. If they have Extra Fast I don't even bother.
I find the whole champions aspect of Diablo 3 pretty terrible, to be honest. I blow through normal enemies without a scratch. Champions are far too much of a jump in difficulty. What's that? Extra fast, Mortar, Shielding, Illusionist? Yeah, I think I'll just Alt-F4 instead.
It's not a label; it's a series of words I used. Your own series of words about the attacks reaffirms my series of words. Perhaps "near-zero" is more accurate. It is specifically referencing the lack of correspondence and consistency between what you see onscreen and what is actually happening. The only attacks that function like they look like they do are the ground DoTs and maybe the extremely slow big swings from the guys in Act IV (the hitboxes are still larger than they should be).a) The attacks are in TWO different categories. One that do not have a hitbox attached to them: if you trigger it, you will eat the damage. Two: if you manage to move out of their hitbox before they finish, you eat zero damage. Those are heavily telegraphed attacks. Managing this is part of the gameplay, like it or not.
b) "particularly considering there is literally zero precedent for it in the genre." Why should that matter? Diablo III is not really a pure contender in the "arpg" market, I would not consider even looking around in the genre if games could only use elements that have had precedents for them in previous games (which is a paradox in itself - where did the first game come from? Was it allowed to make a precedent?
c) "Zero fidelity gameplay" is still not a fact. It is a label you came up with, in order to dismiss its gameplay on the fly. Which is fine, but it is what it is.
I'm surprised you typed a) without thinking to yourself "wow, this is a really stupid way to design a game". I legitimately do just find it surprising. I'm not exaggerating when I say that I find it so far removed from how I would design a game that I consider it very unusual that there are people who would be alright with, let alone prefer, this kind of design.
I've only played for 30 minutes as Outlander, but T2 was responsive as D3, just without desync issues.
And every single missile in the game, and every single "big guy attack" from every act (including Act1, Act2, Act3). And of course you can avoid boss attacks as well (Maghda's shot is kitable, you can get out of the way for Butcher's hook, its charge and its big attack as well), you will not get hit once by Belial if you do the fight well (without one evade ability ofc, you will get poison sprayed on, but that is it.).
It is not "near-zero", it is more like 85-15, where 85 is the avoidable part. So... really, do not get it. To the second part, well, people are different, simple as that.
I have no idea why our experiences would be so different. I try to attack a mob by shift click, then click to move back a few paces and shift click again. First I'm not sure if I actually hit the mob then I find if I do that sequence too quickly something doesn't happen. Either I don't move or the second attack just don't happen. It feels pretty terrible to me.
That said, I'm getting used to it. It's more like every other older ARPG that exists out there and it's just a matter of moving my mindset back a bit to deal with it.
I still like the game. Pricepoint, loot, pace, it all feels good. I was just spoiled by D3's fluidity.
Dexterity is most important for a 2H or DW Engineer, honestly. Without a Shield, it is your primary Defensive stat (since Vitality is more-or-less worthless without a Shield). The Fumble Damage Reduction, Crit Chance%, and Dodge% all make it the best offstat for pretty much every build.
As for Focus, the majority of Engineer skills can scale with (or only scale with) Focus. Basically:
If it says "Inflicts WeaponDPS", scales only with STR.
If it says "Inflicts WeaponDPS as Element", scales with both STR and Focus equally.
If it says "+X-Y Damage", scales with Focus. This applies to any damage type, even the ones that say Physical.
For what it's worth, Forcefield and Aegis have pretty bad synergy. While Forcefield is up, Aegis does not proc. Not that Aegis is an amazing skill depending on the difficulty you're on. Unless you reach ~90%+ Damage Reduction% I guess and don't need Forcefields bigger shields. Or have some build that requires you to be hit.
Worth noting that Shield Bash is Focus scaling for the damage, not Strength.
Coup de Grace is a one-point wonder. It scales decently (+.5 ratio per point) but the one second internal cooldown (globally, not per target) limits the overall usefulness.
Forcefield alone would achieve that immortality honestly. And, as noted above, Shield Bash scales with Focus, though Dynamo Field is basically "Shield Bash but better" as far as a spammable ability for generating Charge is concerned.
Aegis is best served in a build that plans to spend a lot of Charge. But, at the same time, it isn't reliable enough, or big enough, to be a primary method of damage prevention. And then there's no real synergy between it and Forcefield so getting both isn't recommended. They really need to look at Aegis or I guess we'll just have to accept that it's mediocre forever for Elite.
You know, I always wonder at the effectiveness of dodge but I don't even know how playing without it would go. It seems that the amount of melee damage dealt in this game acknowledges the fact that melee damage is extremely easy to mitigate, so if you let yourself get hit in melee more than once in a short period of time, bad things are going to happen to you.
People have done adequate ground work on displaying the inadequacies of the hitboxes in Diablo 3 (I'm sure you of all people have seen the infographics). I don't really feel like repeating their effort, especially if you really believe that every single missile in the game functions as it appears. Besides, if you think that 15% of the game's attacks not functioning as they appear is an acceptable and normal number, it's probably a fruitless effort anyway. To me, 15% is obscene.
The boss fights are fine. Excepting Azmodon, they're my favourite parts of the game.
People have done adequate ground work on displaying the inadequacies of the hitboxes in Diablo 3 (I'm sure you of all people have seen the infographics). I don't really feel like repeating their effort, especially if you really believe that every single missile in the game functions as it appears. Besides, if you think that 15% of the game's attacks not functioning as they appear is an acceptable and normal number, it's probably a fruitless effort anyway. To me, 15% is obscene.
I disagree with this. Once you're up to multiple peolle on elite you need the mobility and invincibility frames of Shield Bash while you're building your charge. You also get more utility out of your charge builder with the brief stun/knockback. Dynamo field is strictly better for ranged builds of course but I feel like you're selling shield bash short; my coop partner greatly prefers it to dynamo field because its a very safe attack.
I think that's why Grell's are so easily farmable, to be honest.
Not entirely sure how Dynamo Field benefits a ranged build given it is a point blank area of effect with a relatively small (initial) range; I suppose it applies at Tier II or Tier III but those are typically only gotten in melee builds anyway. Dynamo Field gives better Charge returns on average than Shield Bash which turns into more Forcefields which gives better survivability for Elite.
This isn't saying Shield Bash is useless, just that Dynamo Field is better at generating Charge. And, for a Focus Engineer, the better damage option, though the damage isn't exactly a primary concern in the first place. You have other options for CCing groups. Focus Sword/Shield is basically an offensive Tank :x
Outlander shouldn't either. Just the two melee classes should have the default 25% Damage Reduction. That said, I never actually checked my Outlander's DR%.