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[indigo-cyclops]

Had they not had this massive success with Wasteland 2, that would probably be true, and I'd have no problem with it. But they did, which means they could have found a publisher to fund their next game (maybe even this one), and self-funded using Wasteland 2's profits.

I get why this is a better deal for them, but I don't like scenario where gamers are continually asked to shoulder all the risk, while the businesses get to keep all the profits. I don't mind doing that once in a while when someone needs something to get started, but coming back for seconds is a whole other matter.

They even hint in the video that now publishers are interested in them. They have other opportunities, but they would involve having to pay back loans or let a publisher get part of the cut, and they'd rather have you take on the burden instead. It's not so sympathetic this time.

Anyway, I don't want to start a whole debate about. Clearly most people don't think about it the way I do, and they just see Kickstarter as a big store to buy games. I'm certainly not here to tell anyone how to spend their money, but I'm sticking to my "one kickstarter per lifetime" rule.

I was wondering when you'd show up in this thread. Please don't litter this thread with your debate.

I'm quite intrigued funding happened so fast, but it is Torment. This might be the one I'm looking forward to the most. I backed most of the big ones. That concept art, I can't stop looking at it.

 

[Frogacuda]

Fuck the notion of an EA, Activision, or Ubisoft published Torment sequel.

Then self-fund it with Wasteland 2's profits. Yeah, that might mean finding a stop-gap project if you want to avoid temporary staff cuts, but they could figure it out if they wanted.

But Kickstarter really shouldn't be about "fuck the publishers," it's just about loosening their stranglehold and offering an alternative. It seems like there's this very simplistic worldview that gamers have of the industry where developers are kindly artists who deserve everything, and publishers are evil slave-drivers who fuck everything up.

Both publishers and developers are businesses, and they do shit that seems like it will make them money. Publishers aren't evil, but they can definitely be out-of-touch with what gamers want, and I think that's where Kickstarter has been amazing. But I still think it's great that publishers spend all this money making a lot of awesome games, and I'm glad I don't have to pay for those games before they exist when they aren't good.

 

[Deleted member 102362]

Fuck the notion of an EA, Activision, or Ubisoft published Torment sequel.

It still scares me that Ubisoft was the second place bidder on the Metro license (thank god they didn't get it).

 

[nubbe]

I get why this is a better deal for them, but I don't like scenario where gamers are continually asked to shoulder all the risk, while the businesses get to keep all the profits. I don't mind doing that once in a while when someone needs something to get started, but coming back for seconds is a whole other matter.

Should developers bend over to shareholders or gamers?

 

[dude]

I just wanted to use this opportunity to say, once again, that Kickstarter is the best thing to happen to gaming, probably ever.

I mean, These past two years have been one hell of a ride for me as a PC gamer. Each campaign fills me with so much excitement, and seeing so many people also putting down money for these games makes me really giddy.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Here's the great thing about those big publishers: they're disappearing. Notice how there are only just a handful left at the table? I don't notice anyone stepping in to replace the fallen. The last of the dinosaurs which may or may not evolve fast enough to handle the more agile competition of so much independent development that will drive the overall game market if it isn't already on the cusp of doing so.

 

[superdeluxe]

So just like the $95 and $110 tiers. Not sure how much I like that.

Whats your issue with it?

 

[FACE]

I can imagine a dude going "Guys, I have an idea for a 1.2 million stretch goal.. FUCK!"

 

[wrowa]

Had they not had this massive success with Wasteland 2, that would probably be true, and I'd have no problem with it. But they did, which means they could have found a publisher to fund their next game (maybe even this one), and self-funded using Wasteland 2's profits.

I get why this is a better deal for them, but I don't like scenario where gamers are continually asked to shoulder all the risk, while the businesses get to keep all the profits. I don't mind doing that once in a while when someone needs something to get started, but coming back for seconds is a whole other matter.

They even hint in the video that now publishers are interested in them. They have other opportunities, but they would involve having to pay back loans or let a publisher get part of the cut, and they'd rather have you take on the burden instead. It's not so sympathetic this time.

Anyway, I don't want to start a whole debate about. Clearly most people don't think about it the way I do, and they just see Kickstarter as a big store to buy games. I'm certainly not here to tell anyone how to spend their money, but I'm sticking to my "one kickstarter per lifetime" rule.

They probably could have found a publisher, but that's not really what these RPG kickstarters are about. They aren't just to kick start the projects off the ground, but also to prevent publishers influencing the projects in a way neither we nor the developers want.

They should self-finace their next games however, I'm with you on that. Both Wasteland 2 and Torment should be pretty much profitible from day 1, so they should use that money for future projects. However, in Torment's case it didn't yet work any other way.

 

[dmr87]

1.2 million in nine hours.

I just wanted to use this opportunity to say, once again, that Kickstarter is the best thing to happen to gaming, probably ever.

I mean, These past two years have been one hell of a ride for me as a PC gamer. Each campaign fills me with so much excitement, and seeing so many people also putting down money for these games makes me really giddy.

Yea, loving it as well. Such enjoyment to help smaller dedicated teams to make the games they/the fans want to make/play without having Papa bear breathing down their necks.

 

[Deleted member 102362]

$20 tier gone.

 

[Zeliard]

Sigh...

vs

lol

 

[crabman]

$20 backed

 

[superdeluxe]

250 tier is gone and the 110 tier is getting there

 

[Beckx]

Had they not had this massive success with Wasteland 2, that would probably be true, and I'd have no problem with it. But they did, which means they could have found a publisher to fund their next game (maybe even this one), and self-funded using Wasteland 2's profits.

I get why this is a better deal for them, but I don't like scenario where gamers are continually asked to shoulder all the risk, while the businesses get to keep all the profits. I don't mind doing that once in a while when someone needs something to get started, but coming back for seconds is a whole other matter.

They even hint in the video that now publishers are interested in them. They have other opportunities, but they would involve having to pay back loans or let a publisher get part of the cut, and they'd rather have you take on the burden instead. It's not so sympathetic this time.

Anyway, I don't want to start a whole debate about. Clearly most people don't think about it the way I do, and they just see Kickstarter as a big store to buy games. I'm certainly not here to tell anyone how to spend their money, but I'm sticking to my "one kickstarter per lifetime" rule.

You're off-base if you think the 60,000 people willing to back Wasteland 2 counts as a "massive success" on the scale necessary to get a major publisher interested in funding. Those type of numbers are epic failure for any major publisher.

You're tilting at windmills, here. There is nothing wrong with an alternative commerce stream where individual humans can work directly with other individual humans to commission and craft goods outside of the normal models.

 

[Frogacuda]

They probably could have found a publisher, but that's not really what these RPG kickstarters are about. They aren't just to kick start the projects off the ground, but also to prevent publishers influencing the projects in a way neither we nor the developers want.

They should self-finace their next games however, I'm with you on that. Both Wasteland 2 and Torment should be pretty much profitible from day 1, so they should use that money for future projects. However, in Torment's case it didn't yet work any other way.

I don't think publishers fuck shit up nearly as much as the average NeoGAFer thinks. Developers don't like having to do vertical slices and milestone builds but these are actually kind of important quality control checks, and when developers don't do enough of this, we end up with shit like Aliens: Colonial Marines.

Yeah, there are plenty of stories where publishers have imposed their own vision on a project, but for every one of those, there's 10 where the developer got to make pretty much exactly the game they wanted. It's all about finding the right partner for the project you're working on.

 

[GenericUserName]

There is nothing wrong with an alternative commerce stream where individual humans can work directly with other individual humans to commission and craft goods outside of the normal models.

Yup. It's basically a sort of on-demand, custom-designed thing for a niche audience.

Guess what, all the cult classics are pretty much this.

 

[Frogacuda]

You're off-base if you think the 60,000 people willing to back Wasteland 2 counts as a "massive success" on the scale necessary to get a major publisher interested in funding. Those type of numbers are epic failure for any major publisher.

You're just wrong about this. Publishers know full well that those 60,000 backers represent a tiny fraction of the game's future sales, and that this is going to be a very profitable venture. They are watching Kickstarter very closely.

Gamers don't necessarily understand this yet, but that's why gamers don't usually own businesses.

 

[ParityBit]

It's all about finding the right partner for the project you're working on.

I agree.

Kickstarter : Wasteland 2
Kickstarter : Torment

 

[Durante]

You're just wrong about this. Publishers know full well that those 60,000 backers represent a tiny fraction of the game's future sales, and that this is going to be a very profitable venture. They are watching Kickstarter very closely.

Gamers don't necessarily understand this yet, but that's why gamers don't usually own businesses.

If publishers have such deep understanding, and if WL2 will be a huge commercial success, then why didn't publishers fund games like it in the first place?

 

[Frogacuda]

If publishers have such deep understanding, and if WL2 will be a huge commercial success, then why didn't publishers fund games like it in the first place?

Because publishers base their investment on what's out there on the market already. They're risk averse about something that's different. Kickstarter is important to show them that there are these underserviced markets that are profitable.

 

[polyh3dron]

I just pledged $45 for the double pack with Wasteland 2, never got around to pledging to that one in time.

 

[FACE]

I just pledged $45 for the double pack with Wasteland 2, never got around to pledging to that one in time.

My man!

 

[epmode]

If publishers have such deep understanding, and if WL2 will be a huge commercial success, then why didn't publishers fund games like it in the first place?

Yeah, that's the thing. The last major party-based RPG with scope on par with Baldur's Gate is still, well, Baldur's Gate (ToB). While I think publishers are more open to the genre now, the evidence speaks for itself.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Gamers don't necessarily understand this yet, but that's why gamers don't usually own businesses.

Eh, this shit is stupid, man. Crowdfunding is just an electronic, web-based version of patronage which existed before the lame system of modern business warped all sense about the basic one-to-one link between consumer and craftsperson, artist, and/or producer. You still seem to be under the impression that backers should care about the profitability when they really just care about the product or service they're enabling, and if they feel so inclined, the provider they're helping to keep in business making things they want and like. If your average corporate publisher was really the way to go, we wouldn't be seeing people hungry to help bring to market things the publisher would obviously be making money on. But, no, the publisher is not interested in these getting these games made for the consumer the way the consumer wants them.

 

[Corto]

You're just wrong about this. Publishers know full well that those 60,000 backers represent a tiny fraction of the game's future sales, and that this is going to be a very profitable venture. They are watching Kickstarter very closely.

Gamers don't necessarily understand this yet, but that's why gamers don't usually own businesses.

What is this shit? Gamers don't usually own businesses? What gamers? Do you have data of serious prospective studies to support that? You had a point when you stated that in your personal opinion you felt discomfort in pledging for a second project of inXile when they haven't yet released the first one. I had the same reserves too. But please stop generalizing and talk out of your ass about what gamers usually are. That's dangerously close to stereotyping us as asocial, unproductive and lazy members of the society.

 

[Miletius]

Because publishers base their investment on what's out there on the market already. They're risk averse about something that's different. Kickstarter is important to show them that there are these underserviced markets that are profitable.

And yet no publisher was willing to come in and make an attractive offer to Inxile to create a Torment successor despite them hinting for months that this was their next project.

I agree that publishers are still assessing risk when it comes to smaller projects and KS helps with that. Maybe they'll get more involved in these high-risk niche product somewhere down the line. Until that day though I'm happy to fund games that I'd like to see come out.

Look at it another way -- it only costs the average gamer something like $20 to help a project get made that might not see the light of day otherwise. That's small change to most working adults, whom these products are aimed towards. On the other hand, a publisher might sink their beans into this sort of basket -- fund $10mil, and be left with a dud. What choice do they have at this point other than to try to recoup losses by fucking with the formula?

 

[wrowa]

I don't think publishers fuck shit up nearly as much as the average NeoGAFer thinks. Developers don't like having to do vertical slices and milestone builds but these are actually kind of important quality control checks, and when developers don't do enough of this, we end up with shit like Aliens: Colonial Marines.

Funny that you mention Colonial Marines. According to the various reports it was SEGA who wanted to turn the game into a CoD clone to maximize sales, while neither Gearbox nor TimeGate wanted to follow that direction.

 

[Zeliard]

Must Frogacuda continue his tiresome crusade against Kickstarter in every KS thread? The arguments are so repetitive because people keep refuting his points and he just ignores it and continues on.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Must Frogacuda continue his tiresome crusade against Kickstarter in every KS thread? The arguments are so repetitive because people keep refuting his points and he just ignores it and continues on.

For-fucking-serious.

 

[StoppedInTracks]

Had they not had this massive success with Wasteland 2, that would probably be true, and I'd have no problem with it. But they did, which means they could have found a publisher to fund their next game (maybe even this one), and self-funded using Wasteland 2's profits.

I get why this is a better deal for them, but I don't like scenario where gamers are continually asked to shoulder all the risk, while the businesses get to keep all the profits. I don't mind doing that once in a while when someone needs something to get started, but coming back for seconds is a whole other matter.

They even hint in the video that now publishers are interested in them. They have other opportunities, but they would involve having to pay back loans or let a publisher get part of the cut, and they'd rather have you take on the burden instead. It's not so sympathetic this time.

Anyway, I don't want to start a whole debate about. Clearly most people don't think about it the way I do, and they just see Kickstarter as a big store to buy games. I'm certainly not here to tell anyone how to spend their money, but I'm sticking to my "one kickstarter per lifetime" rule.

You are perfectly right that they could've found a publisher for Torment 2 and avoid the KS altogether.

But guess what?

A publisher would give them money AND imperatives: don't do this (rich, deep dialogues and choices) and do this (DLCs, multiplayer, Skyrimification).

A KS Torment 2 is infinitely better for us gamers than a normally published one, even with 5x the budget.

 

[Madrugador]

Done. Already backed this.

 

[~Kinggi~]

Im literally shocked and the movement of this thing. I checked in while at work and was amazed it was already funded the first time i visited the page. I was able to act fast and get in at the 20$ level. First kickstarter i couldnt just wait till i got home or else i would have missed it.

 

[EdwardTivrusky]

I backed it and i'm tempted to add another $15 to go up a level for the digital Numenera corebooks. I was going to go for the tier with WL2 as well but i'm old and when i saw the magic words 'cloth map' my 'good ole days' nostalgia flooded in so i went for it.

My first kickstarter, it's going to be an interesting ride.

 

[Screaming_Gremlin]

Fuck the notion of an EA, Activision, or Ubisoft published Torment sequel.

I don't think this can be stressed enough. It is bad enough what EA has done to every other RPG series they have got their hands on. I couldn't bear to think of them destroying the resurgence of this type of game as well.

I saw it just crossed 1.25 million and it still hasn't even been 12 hours. That is absolutely insane.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Do not click on the first image if you've not yet played Planescape: Torment:

Thank God BioWare is dying.

 

[Llyranor]

Are people really advocating a publisher-run Torment 2 FPS action-RPG with MMO elements and killstreaks in this day and age?

 

[StoppedInTracks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eq4X0AdTiSw

The moment they reached $900k.

 

[Llyranor]

Must Frogacuda continue his tiresome crusade against Kickstarter in every KS thread? The arguments are so repetitive because people keep refuting his points and he just ignores it and continues on.

What does one life matter?

 

[Cynar]

I don't think this can be stressed enough. It is bad enough what EA has done to every other RPG series they have got their hands on. I couldn't bear to think of them destroying the resurgence of this type of game as well.

I saw it just crossed 1.25 million and it still hasn't even been 12 hours. That is absolutely insane.

What EA has done to Bioware is a shame. I am so glad to see this kickstarter, I'm very excited for it and this is my first kickstarter I've pledged to help finance. I cannot wait and I'm glad to see so many of the original team back.

 

[wrowa]

Im literally shocked and the movement of this thing.

Same here. It's scarry how fast it is.

But to be fair, it's an amazing pitch. It's leagues above what Obsidian did initially.

 

[trab pu kcip]

ahahaha :'D

 

[Frogacuda]

Eh, this shit is stupid, man. Crowdfunding is just an electronic, web-based version of patronage which existed before the lame system of modern business warped all sense about the basic one-to-one link between consumer and craftsperson, artist, and/or producer.

In some cases, it can be (like with Tropes vs Women, or Last Days of Coney Island where the end product is not commercial beyond its production). But these developers are businesses and many of them stand to make huge profits from these games. If they wanted to give away Wasteland 2 for free at the end, I wouldn't have nearly the issue I do with this.

 

[Andiie]

Wow, I saw Notch tweet the kickstarter and was blown away at the amount already. O_O

 

[Frogacuda]

What is this shit? Gamers don't usually own businesses? What gamers? Do you have data of serious prospective studies to support that?

Well most people don't own businesses. I didn't mean to imply that gamers are any less likely to own businesses, I'm just saying most of them don't get this.

 

[Minsc]

In some cases, it can be (like with Tropes vs Women, or Last Days of Coney Island where the end product is not commercial beyond its production). But these developers are businesses and many of them stand to make huge profits from these games. If they wanted to give away Wasteland 2 for free at the end, I wouldn't have nearly the issue I do with this.

But the people who are actually pledging don't have an issue so why do you care? I'd rather see the game developed through the kickstarter format than through a publisher myself.

Edit: To expand a little further, I feel kickstarter provides me with better updates, transparency and especially better options in regards to DRM than most games that go through normal publishers, and I also feel I generally get a more complete package than just the game itself and some pre-order DLC.

 

[ambientmystic]

Must Frogacuda continue his tiresome crusade against Kickstarter in every KS thread? The arguments are so repetitive because people keep refuting his points and he just ignores it and continues on.

+1. I've already posted my thoughts on this earlier on in the thread, but seriously, it's like he's just being contrarian for contrarian's sake at this point.

Keep waging that one man war spouting pro publisher rhetoric, Frogacuda.

 

[Delusibeta]

Oh goody, the user that cries "Kickstarter is PURE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL!" is here. Let's enjoy this master-class in circular logic, astroturfing and deflecting arguments.

 

[Llyranor]

But the people who are actually pledging don't have an issue so why do you care? I'd rather see the game developed through the kickstarter format than through a publisher myself.

S/he cares because we are blind sheep who cannot distinguish businesses from charities and are throwing away our money. Only the publishers can save us.

 

[wrowa]

In some cases, it can be (like with Tropes vs Women, or Last Days of Coney Island where the end product is not commercial beyond its production). But these developers are businesses and many of them stand to make huge profits from these games. If they wanted to give away Wasteland 2 for free at the end, I wouldn't have nearly the issue I do with this.

Come on, they would have been lucky to meet a million if they made the game freeware. Getting people to pay for something they also could get for free, is one of the hardest tasks in the world. I don't see how that would be in the best interest to anyone.

(And this is ignoring that they need profits in order to make new games without kickstarter and that your post isn't actually related to what you've quoted)