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Toronto-Age |OT2|
- Thread starter EvilMario
- Start date
From Torontoist
So basically Sheppard is going to really get boned when there's no LRT, or subway.
It's so sad. Building it was not a great experience, but it's a pretty nice ride now. But St Clair isn't even an LRT.. it's just a streetcar with right of way..
I'm worried that both Transit City supporting Councillors and Fordie Councillors don't get it.
So basically Sheppard is going to really get boned when there's no LRT, or subway.
It's so sad. Building it was not a great experience, but it's a pretty nice ride now. But St Clair isn't even an LRT.. it's just a streetcar with right of way..
I'm worried that both Transit City supporting Councillors and Fordie Councillors don't get it.
I wish we could elect some smart people who actually care about acquiring knowledge before they make decisions rather than people who just have too much time on their hands.
BigJonsson
Member
Ford and Co are just going to vote for personal helicopters for themselves
I grow bored of this, off to the Zoo I go, polar bear cub FTW
I grow bored of this, off to the Zoo I go, polar bear cub FTW
Zombie James
Banned
"Everyone I talk to wants personal helicopters."
Only 1026 days left.
Oh gee, that sounds so long. :-/
So much Twitter trolling. But that makes me sad is.. they believe what they're saying.
https://twitter.com/#!/TransitSh1tty
https://twitter.com/#!/TransitSh1tty
"only" 6km/hr faster hahaha
lunarworks
Member
Rob Ford didn't even show up?
"Screw you guys, I'm going home!"
"Screw you guys, I'm going home!"
Zombie James
Banned
Rob Ford didn't even show up?
"Screw you guys, I'm going home!"
Hopefully he doesn't show up for the vote, either.
lunarworks
Member
He won't show up. He knows he's going to lose. Then he'll spin it into the vote being "undemocratic".
somesayyea
Member
rob ford doesn't need to engage in silly discussions about silly facts...he's got a direct line to the people and they're telling him to build subways!
The thing about subway lines is you can't run them all the time, repairs need to occur more often and the stations you would have to build would be ridiculous- (as they arent at ground level) not all of eglinton is going to be below ground so making a subway is fiscally stupid- you also need a lot more employees to operate a subway and the trains cost more, meaning less time moving as frequency wouldn't be near as great- in the end when cuts occur (which they will) a subway on eglinton would probably have the same pathetic service levels as the SRT
Yes tunneling costs the same, but the scope of the project and cost is monumentally different
And scarb does need a subway extension or -something- because the SRT is such a giant piece of shit
Yes tunneling costs the same, but the scope of the project and cost is monumentally different
And scarb does need a subway extension or -something- because the SRT is such a giant piece of shit
I feel like the people that champion subways as being some super speedy miracle service don't go on the TTC.
Every time I use the subway there's always "We're sorry there's been a delay due to a medical emergency at blah blah station" or "There's a delay due to we don't fucking know"
Every time I use the subway there's always "We're sorry there's been a delay due to a medical emergency at blah blah station" or "There's a delay due to we don't fucking know"
AlphaTwo00
Member
When they think of subways, they don't think of what we have, but the magical ones you see in movies where everything works, 100%.
That, or Pneumatic Tubes. We need someone to champion pneumatic tubes.
Our honourable Mayor is first up.
Wants to elect people to make the decision, but between him and the TTC Chair, not Toronto Council.
edit: Now he doesn't want to make a decision. We don't have information! I guess Sheppard was made without a decision.
edti2: He said St Clair Disaster
Wants to elect people to make the decision, but between him and the TTC Chair, not Toronto Council.
edit: Now he doesn't want to make a decision. We don't have information! I guess Sheppard was made without a decision.
edti2: He said St Clair Disaster
Zombie James
Banned
This is embarrassing.
Funny how a week ago, we had 'all the information' needed to start the Sheppard Subway line and the Eglinton LRT, but now Ford claims we don't have the information required.
And he wants the decision to be made by a private party he basically chooses himself. lolol
Construction was a disaster, as are all projects in this city because of the way we hand out contracts. You're kidding yourself if you think subways will save us pain and suffering because they're only underground. Putting an entire LRT line undeground won't solve anything, building subways in neighborhoods with 25% of the density required is insanity. Rethink how the city handles construction, but if you're going to use St Clair as an example about why street transit is bad, you might as well never perform another construction project in the city again.
St Clair is not an LRT either (think more of the Scarborough RT), it's just a right of way with the streetcar. But when all was said and done, the community along St Clair is better served having it.
And he wants the decision to be made by a private party he basically chooses himself. lolol
Construction was a disaster, as are all projects in this city because of the way we hand out contracts. You're kidding yourself if you think subways will save us pain and suffering because they're only underground. Putting an entire LRT line undeground won't solve anything, building subways in neighborhoods with 25% of the density required is insanity. Rethink how the city handles construction, but if you're going to use St Clair as an example about why street transit is bad, you might as well never perform another construction project in the city again.
St Clair is not an LRT either (think more of the Scarborough RT), it's just a right of way with the streetcar. But when all was said and done, the community along St Clair is better served having it.
lunarworks
Member
Subways are faster, more consistently reliable and have greater capacity, there is no argument to this. The problem with TO is that nothing has been done for too long, that costs and complications are now such a huge factor, that essentially has damned the city to be screwed one way or the other.
Either we have inferior transit at a more agreeable cost, or superior transit at a significant cost.
Yes. LRT helps our transit capacity now, which we need. There is no funding for subways. For one six stop subway extension, we can build five LRT lines that reach five times as many people.
The city screwed up with subways in the past and now we're paying for it with the city's growth. Throwing up hands and saying 'NOTHING BUT SUBWAYS' is terrible urban planning though.
No one is walking through that door with money to build a subway system. We need transit growth now, and LRT is a fine solution. We should not stop looking at subways, but we can't wait for the Prov to find money twenty years from now to build a subway line across a street like Eglinton, or Finch.
So, would you prefer to actually have transit in place for the next thirty years, or just wait?
Finally someone with sense.
It's not that simple. Ford's plan would have the slower train sent underground costing more money. His plan also services less of Toronto and would take significantly longer to build. It's an inferior plan regardless of cost.
Ford is obsessed with putting everything underground, even when it doesn't make sense. Eglinton LRT was always underground west of Mt Pleasant. Putting it underground east of that is insanity, given the population and lesser traffic.
Most people are not arguing LRT as 'superior' in terms of capacity, or speed. But they are not affordable, and you can't build a subway up a street like Jane, which has population density for an LRT, but not a subway.
He preaches about finding gravy, yet he'll slash service for half a million people to build a subway line for the same cost, but serving less than fifth of what was possible.
There also is no argument against subways requiring a certain level of density in order to be a cost effective solution and that describes perfectly very large portions of the city (Mel Lastman's Sheppard stubway is a perfect example. It's deserted most of the time but still eats up a lot of cash to maintain). But these sections of the city STILL need reliable effective transit and that's where LRT comes in.
Paris has LRTs and they work great there.
"Here we see the flexibility of the mayor, his willingness to work with the council."
By choosing an outside party to look at the matter, without the council's vote, and ultimately deciding.
I still think it's hilarious that he had all the information he needed a week ago when Sheppard and Eglinton were going along with his vision, but now when it's come to a vote, we don't have information.
edit: Woo. I like this Perruzza guy.
I kinda believe we do need the subways. The sheppard line would have more people traffic if it wasnt such a joke. subways might be costly now but as the city grows they will be a godsend 30-50 years from now. If we put in LRTs now they will probably have to be replaced with subways regardless as the population grows and traffic becomes alot worse. Subways will futureproof ourselves. they might even spur more suburban condos/businesses around the major transfer stations.
Where's the funding coming from in the next twenty years? It may never come in fact, even given that time. If the LRT is replaced 50 years from now, is it not worth it today? Bloor had a streetcar line at one point, but we somehow managed to grow from that.
Or would you prefer just sitting on our hands until something presents itself? Part of the reason why the city has been screwed out of a having a good subway system is that they sat on their hands for years, waiting and waiting, delaying expansion of the system.
Simply delaying and hoping that a more attractive option appears is foolish. If you're axing five LRT lines in favor of a short subway extension, it just doesn't make sense at the rate this city is going. And you can build subways everywhere as it is. Some parts of Transit City were LRT specifically because of population density, and would never be considering for subway expansion. Maybe 50 years from now when population as increased in an area (maybe because of having surface transit available), then subways can be explored.
Zombie James
Banned
Here come the threats from Ford.
Hilarious how Nunziata cuts off anti-Ford speakers, but gives warning to pro-Ford speakers.
The LRT plans were built with a whole *lot* of future projections done of population growth on the corridors where the LRTs are planned and subways won't be required there for DECADES.
http://www.pembina.org/blog/500
However all these sections of the city NEED Better Transit in the worst way RIGHT NOW.
It's not a coincidence that all proposed subway plans are tiny single lines while the proposed LRT plans consist of long multiple lines. It's because LRT are cheaper to build and they can be built across the VAST sections of the city that don't' have the density to support subways and wont' for decades.
Look the province started building subways across Eglinton but then Mike Harris got elected and not only did he shut the subway down he filled the hole back in. Unless you get a federal and provincial goverment sympathetic to Toronto you won't get required govt funding for subways. McGuinty is willing to spend 8 billion on transit and it's MUCH better to get as much transit to as many parts of the city as possible as compared to what Rob Ford wants which is Sheppard stubway PART II and every other section of the city can choke on congestion.
Zombie James
Banned
Toronto is the capital of Canada. OH MAN.
...
Have you even read any of the comments being made? Do you understand how urban planning, density and cost actually work? Or are you a troll?
Because it would be a great troll.
That's fair but then either we get Harper to turn on the taps (can't go to McGuinty because he's drained dry) or we go for tolls and car taxes and congestion fees to start getting the money to fund it but Ford killed the car tax and has consistently opposed tolls.....
You gotta pay for this stuff man.
Edit: Fuck David Shiner.
Uh. What? If you were to make all the LRTs into subways, the amount of room needed for stations which would become derelict would not be an absolutely massive waste of space?
Btw LRTs move roughly the same speed as a subway, it's still a train, but closer to a streetcar in configuration
Using money from...?
added_time
Member
There is NO money for subways! We either build nothing or we build a lot of LRT. I will gladly take something over absolutely nothing.
For those of you in this thread arguing to build subways, just remember that the Province has offered $0 for the Shepherd Subway which means it isn't getting built either way. The argument is only whether to allow certain parts of the Eglinton LRT to run above ground so that we have the money to build 3 or 4 lines instead of just one.
So please learn your facts before yelling "subways are better". We all know subways are better but they aren't getting built even in Ford's plan.