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Tour de France 2017 |OT|
- Thread starter Addnan
- Start date
That points penalty seems very harsh. I don't think it was such a severe incident to warrant anything more than Sagan being demoted to the back of the peleton for the day.
chicken_pasta
Banned
That's bullshit. -80 pts is way too much for something that looks debatable.
Edit: It sure looks to me like Cavendish is falling here, before Sagan pulls his elbow out but what do I know.
I mean, Cav clearly makes contact with Sagan before he puts his elbow out.
Then, after Cav starts falling and hits Sagan's arm, he moves his elbow to protect himself.
Edit: It sure looks to me like Cavendish is falling here, before Sagan pulls his elbow out but what do I know.
I mean, Cav clearly makes contact with Sagan before he puts his elbow out.
Then, after Cav starts falling and hits Sagan's arm, he moves his elbow to protect himself.
Charles Brandon
Member
he "makes contact" with him because Sagan rode into him ffs
bobnowhere
Member
Jeez, that's a serious precedent. I'm all for demoting him for what I'll call "reckless sprinting" but a DQ is a step too far, that's usually reserved for violent conduct like Renshaw or those 2 Italians that punched on a few years ago.
On what stage will Bouhanni get sent home?
Charles Brandon
Member
Can only assume they took the elbow as deliberate. If it was deliberate, it's a fair call. If.
chicken_pasta
Banned
They took 80 points off his numbers, gave him a +30s penalty, and then they simply said "nah let's just kick him out".
Terrible stuff by the organization. What a joke of a race.
Terrible stuff by the organization. What a joke of a race.
captscience
Member
Awful decision. Sagan doesn't seem like the type to throw a deliberate elbow.
I imagine there's no sort of appeals process?
I imagine there's no sort of appeals process?
chicken_pasta
Banned
Le Tour is the worst of the Grand Tours anyways.
Here is the front on video which makes it clear Sagan doesn't hit Cavendish with an elbow.
https://mobile.twitter.com/TheLegendMito21/status/882269127708221440/video/1
Once you take the elbow out I don't see how this incident is serious enough to go past the rule book
http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rulesandregulation/16/26/68/12-DIS-20170701-E_English.pdf
10.1.Deviating from selected lane, endangering
other riders
1st offence: relegation to the last place in his group, point
classification penalty equal to the points awarded to the first
place of the stage, 200 + 30 in general class.
2nd offence: relegation to last place in the stage, point
classification penalty equal to the points awarded to the first
place of the stage, 200 + 1 in general class.
3rd offence: elimination + 200
Which is the first penalty they awarded against Sagan.
https://mobile.twitter.com/TheLegendMito21/status/882269127708221440/video/1
Once you take the elbow out I don't see how this incident is serious enough to go past the rule book
http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rulesandregulation/16/26/68/12-DIS-20170701-E_English.pdf
10.1.Deviating from selected lane, endangering
other riders
1st offence: relegation to the last place in his group, point
classification penalty equal to the points awarded to the first
place of the stage, 200 + 30 in general class.
2nd offence: relegation to last place in the stage, point
classification penalty equal to the points awarded to the first
place of the stage, 200 + 1 in general class.
3rd offence: elimination + 200
Which is the first penalty they awarded against Sagan.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
Holy shit just seeing the news now and cannot believe this happened.
Charles Brandon
Member
looks like he did to me. went for another one and missed with that but there was contact the first time.
Psychotext
Member
He looks like he leans in, but that's not an elbow. No DQ IMHO.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
I feel like I've seen countless sprints where similar line changing and elbowing results in a downed rider.
Cav was already up and on Sagan when the elbow came up. I could understanding calling elbow if it was more mid-body/bike
Cav was already up and on Sagan when the elbow came up. I could understanding calling elbow if it was more mid-body/bike
That is not an elbow, that is standard body pushing in a sprint. From the overhead shot it looks like Sagan flicks his arm and the point of his elbow hits Cav in the face but on the head on angle that is clearly not the case.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
I don't even like Sagan that much and I feel this is a harsh call. Watch every sprint from any major race and this is going on.
chicken_pasta
Banned
Heck, watch Cav's sprints. Worst things have happened.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
I feel like I recall reading that Cav is notorious for "dirty" tactics in sprints.
jakonovski
Member
Whoa that's super harsh. Especially considering that Demare cut everybody off too, it's just that Kristoff or whoever managed to stay on his bike.
That's some proper bullshit what is the jury smoking?! Jesus this is all sorts of ass. Yeah like others said way way worse things have happen in between sprinters before compared to this. Will be interesting to see if they follow through on this and punish everyone equally in close sprints from now on..
FrankCanada97
Roughly the size of a baaaaaarge
Seems pretty harsh, I don't recall such penalties for similar incidents. I don't care much for sprint stages anyways, they are always susceptible to the biggest crashes in the final kilometers.
As a complete outsider, I have applied my zero knowledge of this sport and confidently determined that Sagan's elbow wasn't deliberate and DQing him from the whole Tour is outrageous.
He should've received a ride-through penalty through the pits and three points on his superlicense.
He should've received a ride-through penalty through the pits and three points on his superlicense.
It's not just the elbow, he clearly pushes Cavendish against the barrier with his whole body prior to that. Cavendish tries to follow Demare, Sagan keeps going right against the barrier when he should stay in line, add to that the elbow and the horrific crash and you have something crazy enough to warrant a DQ.
Intentional or not, it's extremely dangerous and not the first time it happens with Sagan this year. He was even involved in the first crash right after the flamme rouge.
Intentional or not, it's extremely dangerous and not the first time it happens with Sagan this year. He was even involved in the first crash right after the flamme rouge.
jakonovski
Member
Is there video of this btw? Eurosport only showed the aftermath of the GC pileup.
edit: https://u.nya.is/jdkpym.mp4
Looks like to me the FDJ rider to the left of Sagan hits the wheel of the red team rider in front, then careens into Sagan, who is built like a brick shithouse and shrugs him off.
https://mobile.twitter.com/LowriBuckley/status/882296223037878273/photo/1
Cav in 2013...
seems a simmilar incident that didnt result in a DQ.
Cav in 2013...
seems a simmilar incident that didnt result in a DQ.
hanspampel
Banned
Quiet ironic the incident happend with Cavendish
The most ruthless sprinter the last years, lol
The most ruthless sprinter the last years, lol
It didn't result in a DQ because Cavendish wasn't guilty... Veelers was for using that line.
chicken_pasta
Banned
This looks way worse.
Charles Brandon
Member
Except the commissaires exonerated Cav and blamed Veelers.
This is all irrelevant whataboutery anyway
The problem I have with this is incident above all, is that is in a sense manufactured by the organization themselves.
Stages with 180-200k's of sensationless cycling, that ends in twisty and narrow sprint finishes.
This forces these kinds of mindless bouts of power where all sprinters involved are at risk of making mistakes.
The Tour themselves are as much to blame as the riders involved here.
Stages with 180-200k's of sensationless cycling, that ends in twisty and narrow sprint finishes.
This forces these kinds of mindless bouts of power where all sprinters involved are at risk of making mistakes.
The Tour themselves are as much to blame as the riders involved here.
jakonovski
Member
The French would break out the guillotines if Demare's win got questioned so I'm gonna go all conspiracy theorist here.
There was no reason for this to end in a crash, considering there were so few of them and the road being large enough for a sprint like this. This is solely to blame on a rider's actions.
jakonovski
Member
Also, one must say Sagan has a very mountain biking esque way of of balancing himself against lateral forces. Which involves raising elbows and wiggling your hips.
Knowing absolutely nothing about cycling, it doesn´t look like Sagan deliberately hits Cavendish with his elbow, but more like once he feels Cavendish next to him he deliberately pushes him with his shoulder/upper arm and his elbow rises afterward due to that momentum... I feel that this should probably also be very frowned upon?
https://mobile.twitter.com/TheLegendMito21/status/882269127708221440/video/1
https://mobile.twitter.com/TheLegendMito21/status/882269127708221440/video/1
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
Surprised Sagan got the DQ. Even while watching the replays I felt this was more Cav's fault for crowding in. If you watch the video closely, you actually see Cav push into Sagan as he starts to run out of room. Sagan seems to just react as anyone would, using his elbow to shrug another rider off. It wasn't intentional, it wasn't malicious, and it was brought on by another rider crowding into him, which a second before he probably barely knew was there.
Very surprised at the ruling and seems incredibly unfair. Was okay with the docking of points and time, but this seems overly harsh for what amounts to a pure accident brought on by some strange circumstances.
Very surprised at the ruling and seems incredibly unfair. Was okay with the docking of points and time, but this seems overly harsh for what amounts to a pure accident brought on by some strange circumstances.
When you're boldering onwards at 65kph with nothing but muscle power, you tend become a bit less aware of your surroundings and your ability to correct yourself becomes a tad worse.
These guys were all behaving like mad men. Demar crosses from far right to left, Cav tries to squeeze through a tiny hole that isn't there, Sagan sways to the right with a rider there.
These are all not pretty parts of a sprint, but none of them are intentional.
It is as I stated before, a product of letting these guys sit comfortably for 200k's only to let them explode in the last 2.
True Savior
Member
Good decision. This kind of scummy behavior that jeopardizes the health of other cyclists cannot be tolerated. The points/seconds penalization was a joke.
jakonovski
Member
Safety and mass bicycle sprints don't go together, at all. They're all taking a gigantic risk just by doing it.
Also, Cav was taking a deliberate risk passing close to the barriers. Sagan was over aggressive in protecting his space, but it's mostly a race incident IMO. It's not like anyone stays in line these days, I mean look at Demare going zigzag like nuts, and rewarded with a win. Demotion for Sagan would've been the proper action. Or DQ for Sagan and demotion for Demare.
Also, Cav was taking a deliberate risk passing close to the barriers. Sagan was over aggressive in protecting his space, but it's mostly a race incident IMO. It's not like anyone stays in line these days, I mean look at Demare going zigzag like nuts, and rewarded with a win. Demotion for Sagan would've been the proper action. Or DQ for Sagan and demotion for Demare.
Charles Brandon
Member
If anything, Demare started this whole thing with his slaloming all over the place.
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