Charles Brandon
Member
I agree that Demare was dangerous also but the difference between him and Sagan was that he actually had a gap to move through, Sagan's 'gap' was full of Mark Cavendish.
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Tour de France 2017 |OT|
- Thread starter Addnan
- Start date
TarpitCarnivore
Member
They were moving with the group and Cav tried to squeeze it more. To me it looks like Cav just totally miss judged his space and came right up on Sagan's arm
Have you ever watched a final sprint before? This kind of stuff is totally common and lots of guys try and shoot those inside lines along the barriers.
jakonovski
Member
More like Cav's gap was full of Sagan. I'm of the opinion that the guy at the back has more responsibility because he's the only one who knows fully where he's sticking his front wheel. And Cav was almost fully behind Sagan at the start of the Demare slalom extravaganza.
Surely you meant to say it the other way around?
Charles Brandon
Member
Well I'm afraid your opinion is dead wrong, that's not how it works. That's not even how it works outside of cycling. You cut in front of someone moving at speed and cause a crash, that's your fault. We can debate about whether it was a DQ offence and exactly how bad it was compared to other incidents, including in the same sprint, but there is absolutely no doubt about who is to blame for the crash,
TarpitCarnivore
Member
If you watch it slowed down, both of them are following Demare. When Demare stops moving right (our left) Sagan has the line right behind him and Cav is at angle. When Demare once again swings the opposite direction Cav tries to adjust but Sagan is right there.
I think this is more on Demare than anyone else. He moved all the way one direction then all the way back.
jakonovski
Member
The UCI rule is sticking to your line, which is very much not enforced. In that playing field it absolutely is everyone's responsibility to not enter dead ends. Cav's no stranger to cutting people off without repercussion himself.
Also, looks like Cav and Sagan are on good terms.
https://twitter.com/MoynaFernando/status/882307747441774592
Also, looks like Cav and Sagan are on good terms.
https://twitter.com/MoynaFernando/status/882307747441774592
TarpitCarnivore
Member
I think after watching this enough I'm in the camp of, it was a calamity of errors. Cav taking that inside line, Cav & Sagan following Demare and Demare zig zagging all over the course.
Charles Brandon
Member
Respectfully, I disagree. Cav had Demare's wheel Sagan was tow paces inside, Demare moved inside, Sagan headed for his old line, not his wheel, didn't see that Cav was already there,
Joelstinton14
Member
If you watch the over head shot - the space did open up for Cav to go into, it was a risky move - but it did open up.
I still can't make up my mind though, it looks like demare causes the whole thing. Nacer had to break as he cuts across. Sagan has to rebalance and uses his elbows - which were big elbows and pushes cav up onto the barrier.
I think it is the secondary elbow that has got him punished, he obviously felt cav and he (unintentionally) sticks out his elbow again and it seems pushes Cav up onto the barriers. Seems more like natural reactions than any malice but the force of those reactions did cause a big crash. Optics i guess. But at full speed it doesn;t look good at all.
Think the original penalty was sufficient. Be interesting to hear why it was changed.
I still can't make up my mind though, it looks like demare causes the whole thing. Nacer had to break as he cuts across. Sagan has to rebalance and uses his elbows - which were big elbows and pushes cav up onto the barrier.
I think it is the secondary elbow that has got him punished, he obviously felt cav and he (unintentionally) sticks out his elbow again and it seems pushes Cav up onto the barriers. Seems more like natural reactions than any malice but the force of those reactions did cause a big crash. Optics i guess. But at full speed it doesn;t look good at all.
Think the original penalty was sufficient. Be interesting to hear why it was changed.
Pretty much all involved riders say that a DQ is too harsh after viewing all of the angles.
Even Greipel came back from his previous statements.
You guys should all watch that forward slomo once more and then tell me that Sagan deliberately elbowed Cav with 100% certainty (which a DQ should merit).
Even Greipel came back from his previous statements.
You guys should all watch that forward slomo once more and then tell me that Sagan deliberately elbowed Cav with 100% certainty (which a DQ should merit).
Charles Brandon
Member
I don't think he should have been DQ'd. I don't think its an outrageous decision but it does seem very harsh. I do think he should have been punished though.
jakonovski
Member
Someone put it well: UCI is punishing consequences and not actions. Which means that if Cav hits the brakes there's not punishment for anyone and probably not even a discussion beyond the normal banalities.
Charles Brandon
Member
I really don't think that Cav hitting the breaks would have made any difference whatsoever. However, the thing about consequences is correct though. That's life I guess. You can do all manner of fucked-up things but if no-one else gets hurt you'll most likely be OK.
I think they feel threatened now. With this decision it looks like UCI/ASO wanted to show that now everyone can be disqualified. For as long as I remember top sprinters were untouchables. Nothing would stop them on their way to the glorious finish in Paris.
I do not know if this is a new policy or just a one-time show-off. One should not forget that the same people who punished Sagan, last year saved Froom on Ventoux.
Waldo Lydecker
Member
In F1 they call this a racing incident.
DQ is far too harsh.
DQ is far too harsh.
Psychotext
Member
The other sprinters are barely going to be able to conceal their erections.
chicken_pasta
Banned
Now the Germans have a real shot at the Green.
By the way, to me this looks like Cav was trying to push Sagan out of his line when he semi-interrupted him. Unfortunately for him, Sagan is built like a bull. I'm guessing he then ricocheted, lost his balance, hit Sagan again and he responded by putting his arm out (while Mark was already going down).
Overall sad news, the two most exciting sprinters in the peloton out of the most boring Grand Tour.
By the way, to me this looks like Cav was trying to push Sagan out of his line when he semi-interrupted him. Unfortunately for him, Sagan is built like a bull. I'm guessing he then ricocheted, lost his balance, hit Sagan again and he responded by putting his arm out (while Mark was already going down).
Overall sad news, the two most exciting sprinters in the peloton out of the most boring Grand Tour.
True Savior
Member
Yes and absolutely not, which is why he was dq.
It is victim blaming. He is out by the way, broken shoulder.
It is why they force them to stay on the line, and certainly don't expect them to use their elbows.
Most of them go just fine. It would probably be better if the GC riders just went to the back of the peloton in the last 3 kilometers but they weren't even here this time and this happened.
Yeah, turns out they don't look kindly on explicitly causing big crashes.
It is why they force them to stay on the line, and certainly don't expect them to use their elbows.
Most of them go just fine. It would probably be better if the GC riders just went to the back of the peloton in the last 3 kilometers but they weren't even here this time and this happened.
Yeah, turns out they don't look kindly on explicitly causing big crashes.
Well I guess some people won't be swayed in their views. We'll just have to wait and see if Bora's appeal will change the situation.
However you want to look at yesterday's incident, in the end it's the Tour that loses.
If Froome manages to take the yellow today, it'll be a snooze fest all the way to the Champs Elysees.
However you want to look at yesterday's incident, in the end it's the Tour that loses.
If Froome manages to take the yellow today, it'll be a snooze fest all the way to the Champs Elysees.
That was going to be a problem either way. Sagan isn't that entertaining that he is going to spice up the mountain stages and he doesn't look as fast as the real sprinters anymore. At least this makes the fight for the green jersey more exciting again.
Outside of Sagan, watching Cav have a go at Merckx his stage win record would've been entertaining.
Plus I'd rather watch the fight for the green be had between the top contenders instead of a watered down group.
The remark about Froome was not made in relation to the DQ. Sagan never made a chance there indeed.
I'm hoping for some unforeseen circumstances to spice things up in the GC battle.
The fight for green can't be entertaining with Sagan in there. He just takes way more points in the mountain stages by going over the first mountain. He had a 200 point lead last year. In 2015 Greipel won 4 stages and still came up more than 60 points behind Sagan. Now you'll have Kittel versus Greipel versus Demare which will be a lot closer.
If you feel that watching that fight play out is more entertaining, that's fine.
In my opinion Sagan is the more all-round rider, being able to take points in more varied situations.
Kittel, Greipel and Demare can fight it out in the last 500m, but to me that isn't more entertaining.
In my opinion Sagan is the more all-round rider, being able to take points in more varied situations.
Kittel, Greipel and Demare can fight it out in the last 500m, but to me that isn't more entertaining.
Charles Brandon
Member
Not sure why watching Froome win easily should be boring but watching Sagan do the same thing is exciting
In my view it is mostly about the field of contenders being narrowed down, rather than favorites having an easy ride.
A larger group of sprinters is more exciting, as is a larger group of GC contenders.
Joelstinton14
Member
You can't really take single shots in any sort of context at all. The problem with them is that they miss that when people sprint, they effectively become a pendulum. The bike and rider move from side to side.
Daffy Duck
Member
No interest in the Tour but saw that accident and holy shit!
That was a horrible crash.
That was a horrible crash.
jakonovski
Member
Sky train going up a hill at threshold vs. solo antics of Sagan.
Although to Froome's credit he found a new side of his cycling self last year and was way better like that. Even though Sky the team is the worst thing to happen to the TdF since, well, Lance.
Cavendish taking out Sagan? DQ. If you dare to DQ Sagan, then you probably would DQ anyone not named Froome.
It probably wouldn't have taken 2 hours if it wasn't Sagan.
Joelstinton14
Member
To be fair to sky they have in other races spiced up their racing over the last year, quite a fair few attacks and taking the race by the scruff of the neck. Whether they do that for the tour i don't know, but i think Movistar as made sky think we need plan b or c, whereas a few years a go all they had to do was threshold it up hills. BMC are getting stronger too in the team department.
Charles Brandon
Member
Sky have a tactic that works, they aren't going to abandon it. I'm a big fan of Froome but I'll be the first to admit that watching Sky dominate the Tour year in, year out is boring as fuck. I want him to win but I want him to win on the back of MTF duel. However, unless the other teams bring it, that won't happen. Sky/Froome did pull off some brilliant moves last year though tbf, even if they weren't classic mountain duels.
It already looks pretty ominous with Froome 30 seconds ahead and only a handful of MTFs in the parcours. The other teams need to attack him today OR they need to work out a way of attacking on flatter stages.
It already looks pretty ominous with Froome 30 seconds ahead and only a handful of MTFs in the parcours. The other teams need to attack him today OR they need to work out a way of attacking on flatter stages.
Shanks D Zoro
Banned
Wow what a stage to miss. Gonna have to watch the incident.
I really don't find the Tour boring. I prefer the Giro as the courses tend to be better and more challenging.
Sky are the team to beat, but clever riding can still produce a winner.
I am still confident that Aru can win and will keep watching to see what he does all the way till the final stage.
I really don't find the Tour boring. I prefer the Giro as the courses tend to be better and more challenging.
Sky are the team to beat, but clever riding can still produce a winner.
I am still confident that Aru can win and will keep watching to see what he does all the way till the final stage.
Joelstinton14
Member
Eurosport did a fairly decent piece on the accident. They see that Demare actions caused both sagan and Bouhanni to take evasive actions which end up collecting Cav who was in a tight spot. Which i tend to agree with the more i see it.
In a way Sagan could have avoided it all, they picked up a shoulder barge/coming together between him and bouhanni which causes Sagan to move across to the line he ended up taking.
In a way Sagan could have avoided it all, they picked up a shoulder barge/coming together between him and bouhanni which causes Sagan to move across to the line he ended up taking.
Charles Brandon
Member
A wild Voeckler appears!
Joelstinton14
Member
Increasingly becoming a fan of De Gendt. Nicely filling the Jensie role as a punishment machine.
Shanks D Zoro
Banned
Looking at the incident.
Seems harsh to DQ him. I am amazed that 95% of sprints don;t end with crashes.
Just a shame for the tour that is has lost three of its most exciting riders.
I am now down to 7 riders in my velogames teams lol. Pls don't let Aru get hurt.
Seems harsh to DQ him. I am amazed that 95% of sprints don;t end with crashes.
Just a shame for the tour that is has lost three of its most exciting riders.
I am now down to 7 riders in my velogames teams lol. Pls don't let Aru get hurt.
Well the jury came to one decision where Sagan was demoted but stayed in the Tour, then Cav's team complained about the lenient punishment and Sagan was thrown off the tour.
How else to react when you lose your lead guy?
jakonovski
Member
I wonder what effect there was in the fact that Brian Cookson's son works for Team Dimension Data.
According to the Eurosport commentators this isn't true, they say that Cav's team tried to lodge a complaint twice but were turned away by the jury.
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