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[Dead Man]

I claim this land in the name of InfiniteNine the Bringer of Bacon.

You have my vote! All hail the Bringer of Bacon.

To be brutally serious for a moment, I stumbled upon Kelly's blog, the trans woman whom I made callous remarks about in earlier posts, and well... I'm an awful person. I'm really sorry to everyone here. I think passing privilege is something that I absolutely take for granted on a minutely basis.

No, you are a normal human being, far from horrible. An awful person would not realise their imperfections.

 

[Hop]

This is war.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop selling arms.

 

[Emitan]

Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop selling arms.

I don't need arms I have dinosaurs.

 

[Jamie xxoo]

I just want to shoot myself for being such an ass with my last post. I read Kelly's blog and basically - I was a huge ignorant ass. She has an amazing soul and I made assumptions I should not have made about her having money and means to transition how she wants to. I treated her like a lazy role model wannabe when she is just struggling to get by. I basically dehumanised her just because she's in the media.

I have somehow in the space of a few years completely forgotten how BAD it can be during transition. I've known people who have gotten stuck in the early stages and killed themselves for God's sake, and yet somehow I have turned into this privileged bitch with about as much compassion as your average 13 year old HALO player.

Kelly if you see this I am so hand-on-heart sorry for totally misplacing my empathy.

 

[Femmeworth]

To be brutally serious for a moment, I stumbled upon Kelly's blog, the trans woman whom I made callous remarks about in earlier posts, and well... I'm an awful person. I'm really sorry to everyone here. I think passing privilege is something that I absolutely take for granted on a minutely basis.

I just read the latest entry. ;_;

Karen had promised she wouldn't leave with the children. She promised me again the day that she left with the children.

Fuck.

 

[yeoz]

This is absolutely the kind of shit that makes me want to kill myself right fucking now. I already have enough fucking self doubt and confusion and worry and stress in my life that all this does is drive me towards anger and self-hate and fucking rage. This is absolutely the kind of talk that gets people fucking killed.

For my entire fucking life i've dealt with animosity and hate, because of who I am. And the constant reminders not only from society, but from people who've gone through this same exact process, that I will NEVER fit in EVER, because I might never be able to fucking pass, is seriously worse than a death sentence. It'd be fucking easier just to kill myself and get it over with because at least you assholes won't be able to judge me anymore.

This utter lack of compassion and understanding from our own community sometimes is just fucking unbelieveable. There are a lot of at-risk individuals out there, and people should be working to help them and support them, not to tell them that they should've waited to be passable before fucking coming out. It's not just about passing, and it should never be able about passing. It should be about getting people the help they fucking need, because gender dysphoria will fucking kill at-risk individuals.

I should know this because I am fucking there. I'm self medicating HRT right now because that's the only fucking thing I could to do stay alive. I don't have health insurance; and just like Kelly's experiences from her blog, I can't figure out how the fuck to get medical services for myself. I spent the last two weeks trying to get a fucking appointment with a clinic downtown and all I get is being fucked around by them, because I can't figure out exactly what the fuck they want from me.

Shit fucking hurts, yo, and I am fucking crying here.

 

[Dead Man]

Jesus. That blog is a gut wrencher. All the best, Kelly.

Edit: And yeoz too, stay strong.

 

[Emitan]

i'm too tired and stressed and depressed to deal with all this

i think i need a few days break

no offense to anyone, but im too emotionally drained to read this kind of stuff

i have trouble even looking at myself in the mirror...

 

[Jamie xxoo]

@yeoz You're totally right to be enraged at my privileged and ignorant comment, but don't let it stick in your mind and bother you. I was flat-out wrong to pass comment on a trans woman's appearance, I should know better than anyone. I totally forgot myself.

 

[Cetra]

And we wonder why we're not accepted. Can't even accept members of our own community. They might make us look bad. Sad, yes, but true. And has been for a damn long time.

Keep your chin up, yeoz.

 

[usea]

I know this might not be a popular opinion, but I'm going to put it out there anyway. No offense to anybody.

Gender is not a big thing to me. My best friend is trans and we argue about it sometimes. I respect and support her, but I don't agree with her in every way. She desperately wants to be outwardly female. I'm like, "what's the difference?" Obviously it's a big deal to her; I don't discourage her, she's very distressed by her situation and I want to help however I can. But to me, there isn't really a difference between men and women.

I mean, obviously there are tons of differences between men and women, but to me those are just part of the differences between any two individuals. It sounds cliche, but I don't like to put people in boxes. Black, asian, female, short, baptist, whatever. I don't care. Those are just utterly useless labels that don't actually say anything about a person. They're not descriptive. Each person is an individual with tons of unique things about them. I don't see 2 categories, men and women. I see infinite variation in every way, between everybody. If you tell me that a person is female, that means nothing to me. It's useless information.

So, my friend is often frustrated by my stance on this. She wants me to see her as a woman, but I still see her as the same person she has always been. Shy, passionate, smart, etc. Gender doesn't change anything about her to me.

I think I'm an empathetic person, but "wanting to be the other gender" is a feeling I have a hard time truly understanding. I can respect it, but I don't see the world the same way. I'm a guy I suppose, but I don't see myself as a guy. That's like, near the bottom of the list of useful information about me.

Anyway, I'm not sure what the point of saying this was. I guess I wish some of you weren't so upset by your situations. I realize I don't understand what you're going through, but I guess try to find some comfort that not everybody in the world is judging you or looking down on you.

I'm sorry if what I said seems insensitive.

 

[Thagomizer]

I just read the latest entry. ;_;

Fuck.

Wow, fuck.

 

[angelfly]

*snip*

It's not a matter of her "wanting to be the other gender" but rather her wanting to be who she is. It may not be important to you but it her it is a big thing. You say gender doesn't matter to you but I'm sure if for the rest of you're life you were made to walk around as something you're not you'd probably have an issue with it. I think you're really shitty towards her with your stance on the issue when you should be supporting her. What we deal with is not something you seem to understand yet you brush it aside as if it's an insignificant part of life.

 

[usea]

It's not a matter of her "wanting to be the other gender" but rather her wanting to be who she is. It may not be important to you but it her it is a big thing. You say gender doesn't matter to you but I'm sure if for the rest of you're life you were made to walk around as something you're not you'd probably have an issue with it. I think you're really shitty towards her with your stance on the issue when you should be supporting her . What we deal with is not something you seem to understand yet you brush it aside as if it's an insignificant part of life.

I couldn't be made to walk around as something I'm not. I am who I am. In this hypothetical situation, I would be whoever I was made to be. If hormones and/or surgery would make me feel more comfortable, that'd be awesome. But it wouldn't change who I was. I'd always be the same person. Gender doesn't define who I am. It's not even a little part of who I am.

My self-image is not tied to the way other people see me, nor is it tied to the way I look. I know who I am.

And I do support her, as I said. I don't make light of her situation. I just think I would feel differently in her shoes. Obviously that is supposition, but it's what I think.

 

[Emitan]

You would feel the same in her shoes because you'd be trans. If you've never had any sort of gender identity issues you won't ever understand.

 

[usea]

You would feel the same in her shoes because you'd be trans. If you've never had any sort of gender identity issues you won't ever understand.

I'm capable of understanding things without experiencing them. Most people are. To say you cannot fathom something unless you've experienced it isn't fair and it actually runs counter to the goal of trans acceptance.

I'm not saying that gender issues are somehow wrong or whatever. I just have a different worldview. I don't care about gender. It's not a part of my identity at all. Obviously this is not true for everybody.

 

[thatbox]

If my worldview prevented me from empathizing with a friend obviously going through some intensely real problems I might be inclined to reexamine it.

Edit: I suggest you try to do some reading on cissexual privelege (you can start here) and think seriously on how it may or may not affect how comfortable you are with yourself and how it may or may not be getting in your way when it comes to understanding what your friend is going through. Also, for what it's worth, your "opinion" doesn't seem substantially different from the top comment on that Kotaku article, which is nothing to be particularly proud of.

 

[usea]

If my worldview prevented me from empathizing with a friend obviously going through some intensely real problems I might be inclined to reexamine it.

Come on. Do you know what empathy means? You are not being fair to me at all.

I think you're totally misunderstanding what I'm saying. I am trying to communicate my view that gender isn't very important to me. I don't label people male or female and treat them thusly. I try to get to know a person as an individual. I don't care what gender or sex a person is.

My friend doesn't feel that way. She sees two clear roles, men and women. She was born male, but wants to be a mother and wife. She wants to walk down the street and have people see her as a woman.

That's cool. I fully support that. I stand by her and try and comfort her when she is having trouble seeing the light at the end of the tunnel as somebody upthread put it. However, I have a hard time imagining that feeling, since I don't really care about gender (or sex, honestly). I am not going to suddenly see her as a different person. I see her slightly different every time I learn something new about her, as I would with anyone. But gender is not part of the way I ever saw her, nor will it become one.

btw I've read that list, though I think it was on a different page since it doesn't look exactly the same.

 

[thatbox]

It's great that you feel that way, but society doesn't feel or operate that way. Society not operating that way is the source of your friend's distress that you can't seem to grasp.

 

[Emitan]

What you're saying is basically that you don't care about the most important part of her life.

 

[ComputerMKII]

My thread went unnoticed, reposting link because people here might be interested: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473690

 

[Brian Griffin]

I'm capable of understanding things without experiencing them. Most people are. To say you cannot fathom something unless you've experienced it isn't fair and it actually runs counter to the goal of trans acceptance.

I'm not saying that gender issues are somehow wrong or whatever. I just have a different worldview. I don't care about gender. It's not a part of my identity at all. Obviously this is not true for everybody.

I think I get what you are saying and if more people where as accepting as you claim to be this world would be a much nicer place. You say you are blind to someone's gender and it has zero impact on how you feel about them, that's great. However, your friend needs you to acknowledge her as a woman and by letting your worldview get in the way of that you are failing her as a friend.

By telling your friend you don't care about her gender, you are telling her that you don't care about her gender, something that she cares about probably more than anything else in the world at this point in her life.

So basically, practice your worldview in how you interact with people but maybe be mindful of who you preach it to.

Come on. Do you know what empathy means? You are not being fair to me at all.

I think you're totally misunderstanding what I'm saying. I am trying to communicate my view that gender isn't very important to me. I don't label people male or female and treat them thusly. I try to get to know a person as an individual. I don't care what gender or sex a person is.

My friend doesn't feel that way. She sees two clear roles, men and women. She was born male, but wants to be a mother and wife. She wants to walk down the street and have people see her as a woman.

That's cool. I fully support that. I stand by her and try and comfort her when she is having trouble seeing the light at the end of the tunnel as somebody upthread put it. However, I have a hard time imagining that feeling, since I don't really care about gender (or sex, honestly). I am not going to suddenly see her as a different person. I see her slightly different every time I learn something new about her, as I would with anyone. But gender is not part of the way I ever saw her, nor will it become one.

btw I've read that list, though I think it was on a different page since it doesn't look exactly the same.

Fun exercise: Take a careful look at the structure of your post. You start by reiterating how you feel, then you talk a tiny bit about how your friend feels, then you counter that with a big paragraph of how you feel again. You say "I" a whole lot in this post. What you seem to be missing is that it's not about you. If you really want to be a good friend to her then her situation and feelings on the matter should trump yours. It doesn't matter that you don't care about gender, she does. If you don't know how to see her as a woman or a different person, then at least make an effort to try because that's what she needs from you.

 

[thatbox]

I suspect that most humans probably place more or less the same emphasis on their gender identities, in the same way that most humans probably care about their left pinkies to more or less the same degree. But if my left pinky is broken, I still have to deal with it. Dealing with it doesn't mean I care about my pinky more than other people care about theirs, it simply means that I have to think about it when most people don't.

 

[Platy]

Gender is not a big thing to me. My best friend is trans and we argue about it sometimes. I respect and support her, but I don't agree with her in every way. She desperately wants to be outwardly female. I'm like, "what's the difference?" Obviously it's a big deal to her; I don't discourage her, she's very distressed by her situation and I want to help however I can. But to me, there isn't really a difference between men and women.

I think the problem with people like you is that you forget to think scientificaly and think about the stuff only in a psycological or antropological way.

By that I mean that you totaly ignore the fact that brains in Men (includes transmen) and Women (includes transwomen) are wired completly different

So, wanting or not, THERE IS A PHYSICAL diference in how a female and a male brain works.

 

[usea]

I think I get what you are saying and if more people where as accepting as you claim to be this world would be a much nicer place. You say you are blind to someone's gender and it has zero impact on how you feel about them, that's great. However, your friend needs you to acknowledge her as a woman and by letting your worldview get in the way of that you are failing her as a friend.

By telling your friend you don't care about her gender, you are telling her that you don't care about her gender, something that she cares about probably more than anything else in the world at this point in her life.

So basically, practice your worldview in how you interact with people but maybe be mindful of who you preach it to.

I don't have to acknowledge my friend as a woman because she is one. I refer to her with female pronouns because it's accurate, not as some kind of false gesture to make her feel better.

I think it's very presumptuous for people in this thread to think they understand my friend or our relationship, or to try and tell me that I'm mistreating her somehow.

If you think it's a terrible thing for one friend to not care about something that's very important to another friend, then you've got another think coming. I have friends who are extremely religious, and I don't care about spirituality at all. Am I a bad friend to these people? I don't have to share the opinions of my friends, I just have to know what is important to them and do whatever I can to help them out. I only expect the same.

If the people in this thread aren't interested in knowing me or reading what I have to say, and they're going to continue putting words in my mouth then I don't have to post here. Somehow I figured this place would be less narrow-minded and insular than it is.

I think the problem with people like you is that you forget to think scientificaly and think about the stuff only in a psycological or antropological way.

By that I mean that you totaly ignore the fact that brains in Men (includes transmen) and Women (includes transwomen) are wired completly different

So, wanting or not, THERE IS A PHYSICAL diference in how a female and a male brain works.

Every person's brain is wired differently. I don't assume I know everything about a person just by their gender. I assume basically nothing. I think that's the only reasonable approach.

Thanks for the "people like you" comment, btw.

I suspect that most humans probably place more or less the same emphasis on their gender identities, in the same way that most humans probably care about their left pinkies to more or less the same degree. But if my left pinky is broken, I still have to deal with it. Dealing with it doesn't mean I care about my pinky more than other people care about theirs, it simply means that I have to think about it when most people don't.

This is a great way of putting it (although it's a pretty big generalization, it gets the point across). I don't understand what I've said to give you the impression that I feel otherwise. But hey, good stuff nonetheless.

 

[Emitan]

I think it's very presumptuous for people in this thread to think they understand my friend or our relationship, or to try and tell me that I'm mistreating her somehow.

We're telling you why what you're doing is offensive and/or insensitive. You've told us your friend is upset with the way you're treating her gender identity. If a bunch of people in the same situation say it's bad, and your friend says its bad what gives you the right to say that we're wrong and everything you're doing is totally fine?

Being an inclusive community doesn't mean we have to accept anything a person does just because they're not biggotted or transphobic (you are neither of those things). We are frustrated because you are ignorant (which is fine, transgenderism [is that a word?] isn't common so it's unfair to expect people to know everything about it) but you came into the thread telling us how you're upsetting your friend but that you don't really seem to care.

 

[usea]

We're telling you why what you're doing is offensive and/or insensitive. You've told us your friend is upset with the way you're treating her gender identity. If a bunch of people in the same situation say it's bad, and your friend says its bad what gives you the right to say that we're wrong and everything you're doing is totally fine?

Being an inclusive community doesn't mean we have to accept anything a person does just because they're not biggotted or transphobic (you are neither of those things). We are frustrated because you are ignorant (which is fine, transgenderism [is that a word?] isn't common so it's unfair to expect people to know everything about it) but you came into the thread telling us how you're upsetting your friend but that you don't really seem to care.

That's not what I said. It's absolutely, totally inaccurate.

I'm not going to speak for her (and I super doubt she is interested in entering this discussion in this thread), but I believe that she appreciates and is grateful for my friendship and the way I treat her. Not just regarding her gender identity, but all aspects of her and her circumstances.

 

[thatbox]

This is a great way of putting it (although it's a pretty big generalization, it gets the point across). I don't understand what I've said to give you the impression that I feel otherwise. But hey, good stuff nonetheless.

It just seems to me like you're saying you don't really care that much about your pinky, and you don't understand why your friend cares so much about hers. I'm just trying to say that she probably doesn't care about her pinky any more than other people do, she's just forced to deal with it when other people aren't. That's all.

I wasn't trying to be mean or rude, but downplaying the role of your gender identity in your own life is pretty much one of the textbook priveleges awarded to cis people. I still encourage you to think critically about whether you don't find your gender identity to be a big deal because you truly feel that way or because everything in society is setup on all levels to allow you to never have to give it a second thought.

 

[Emitan]

That's not what I said. It's absolutely, totally inaccurate.

"So, my friend is often frustrated by my stance on this."

 

[usea]

It just seems to me like you're saying you don't really care that much about your pinky, and you don't understand why your friend cares so much about hers. I'm just trying to say that she probably doesn't care about her pinky any more than other people do, she's just forced to deal with it when other people aren't. That's all.

I wasn't trying to be mean or rude, but downplaying the role of your gender identity in your own life is pretty much one of the textbook priveleges awarded to cis people. I still encourage you to think critically about whether you don't find your gender identity to be a big deal because you truly feel that way or because everything in society is setup on all levels to allow you to never have to give it a second thought.

I have spent a lot of time thinking about it. I'm not the kind of person to say I know with any certainty the answer to things like this. However, I believe it has more to do with my view of individuality, society and depth of knowing.

Basically I think society is bullshit and I don't care even a tiny bit about social constructs, roles or expectations. They have zero respect in my mind. I come to my own conclusions about what is right and wrong, what is acceptable etc, based on reason and merit. I can accept conclusions other people have come to, but only after my own examination of them. I could never simply accept something to be true simply because society says so.

Secondly, I believe that you can't ever truly know something or someone. Therefore, "labels" on people like race, sex, gender whatever are meaningless. Similarly I find things like the genre of a game to be an absolutely worthless bit of data. I have a strong desire to pursue the truth, but I always believe that there is more that I don't know about something than what I do know. There is an extreme nuance and subtlety to all things, and passing judgment quickly on things is one of the worst things a person can do.

So I want to get to know people. True things about a person. The depth of a person that actually says something meaningful. Whether a person identifies with social construct X or Y, I don't care. Whether a person's brain more closely resembles category A or B, I don't care. Categories are stupid. Humans have this innate skill and desire to categorize things, and I can't stand it.

[/rant]

 

[Brian Griffin]

That's not what I said. It's absolutely, totally inaccurate.

I'm not going to speak for her (and I super doubt she is interested in entering this discussion in this thread), but I believe that she appreciates and is grateful for my friendship and the way I treat her. Not just regarding her gender identity, but all aspects of her and her circumstances.

So what are you trying to get out of all this? You don't seem to want advice. Were you trying to get validation for your feelings toward gender? Do you have any questions? This is by far the most accepting and patient group of people on GAF that I have experienced so if you feel you have been misunderstood try explaining yourself again.

EDIT: Just read the above and I agree with you, labels are dumb and society has a lot of dumb constructs in it. People should be free to be who they are at all times and be free of judgement for meaningless things. I sure would like to live in that world but time machines don't exist unfortunately. Maybe in another 1000 generations society will evolve but for now we are stuck with what we have.

 

[Platy]

Every person's brain is wired differently. I don't assume I know everything about a person just by their gender. I assume basically nothing. I think that's the only reasonable approach.

Thanks for the "people like you" comment, btw.

I will retain myself to

Instead of gender theory, neorulogic youtube links and other stuff =P

 

[Jintor]

"I don't see race" is the first thing that pops into my mind.

 

[ColtraineGF]

Gender is not a big thing to me. My best friend is trans and we argue about it sometimes. I respect and support her, but I don't agree with her in every way. She desperately wants to be outwardly female. I'm like, "what's the difference?" Obviously it's a big deal to her; I don't discourage her, she's very distressed by her situation and I want to help however I can. But to me, there isn't really a difference between men and women.

I mean, obviously there are tons of differences between men and women, but to me those are just part of the differences between any two individuals. It sounds cliche, but I don't like to put people in boxes. Black, asian, female, short, baptist, whatever. I don't care. Those are just utterly useless labels that don't actually say anything about a person. They're not descriptive. Each person is an individual with tons of unique things about them. I don't see 2 categories, men and women. I see infinite variation in every way, between everybody. If you tell me that a person is female, that means nothing to me. It's useless information.

So, my friend is often frustrated by my stance on this. She wants me to see her as a woman, but I still see her as the same person she has always been. Shy, passionate, smart, etc. Gender doesn't change anything about her to me.

I think I'm an empathetic person, but "wanting to be the other gender" is a feeling I have a hard time truly understanding. I can respect it, but I don't see the world the same way. I'm a guy I suppose, but I don't see myself as a guy. That's like, near the bottom of the list of useful information about me.

I'm not trying to pile on here, but in stating that you don't 'see' gender and the effects it has on people (good/bad), even if you are well-intentioned about it, it doesn't exactly create an image of empathy. Rather, it implies that you are unable/unwilling to see things from a given perspective, or acknowledge difficulties in X vs. Y, in an attempt to appear enlightened. There is "not seeing" _____, and there is knowing and understanding that there are issues/unique problems that exist within that group, and emphasizing with the issues for a given position, and adjusting what you do accordingly, despite not experiencing the same problems. This can't be done by ignoring that a label exists.

Note that this is not specifically about the relationship you have with your friends, but about your personal view.

To use a clearer example:
"You don't even have to worry about that stuff. I don't even see you as [race]. It's just a label anyway."

 

[thatbox]

I have spent a lot of time thinking about it. I'm not the kind of person to say I know with any certainty the answer to things like this. However, I believe it has more to do with my view of individuality, society and depth of knowing.

Basically I think society is bullshit and I don't care even a tiny bit about social constructs, roles or expectations. They have zero respect in my mind. I come to my own conclusions about what is right and wrong, what is acceptable etc, based on reason and merit. I can accept conclusions other people have come to, but only after my own examination of them. I could never simply accept something to be true simply because society says so.

Secondly, I believe that you can't ever truly know something or someone. Therefore, "labels" on people like race, sex, gender whatever are meaningless. Similarly I find things like the genre of a game to be an absolutely worthless bit of data. I have a strong desire to pursue the truth, but I always believe that there is more that I don't know about something than what I do know. There is an extreme nuance and subtlety to all things, and passing judgment quickly on things is one of the worst things a person can do.

So I want to get to know people. True things about a person. The depth of a person that actually says something meaningful. Whether a person identifies with social construct X or Y, I don't care. Whether a person's brain more closely resembles category A or B, I don't care. Categories are stupid. Humans have this innate skill and desire to categorize things, and I can't stand it.

[/rant]

Your friend isn't trying to "categorize things." Her body is simply wrong, and that's a shitty place to be in our society. Just because you don't like labels or are happy to ignore gender doesn't mean that she isn't going through hell when the rest of the world misgenders her at best or painfully discriminates against her at worst. Even if she shared your view, she would still get treated like shit by a lot of people, and being treated like shit is no fun for anyone regardless of worldview. That's where she's coming from, and that's where you need to meet her.

Your worldview doesn't matter when reality works the way it does. Believing gender doesn't matter doesn't stop your friend from getting insulted. It doesn't stop her from wrestling with the government over her name, or birth certificate. It doesn't make an insurance company cover her. It doesn't make others refer to her with the right pronouns. It doesn't stop her from feeling like her body doesn't fit. It doesn't stop her from hating her nose. It doesn't stop her from getting fired. Even if you don't think gender matters, it matters in a ton of ways that make life difficult for your friend, and she would probably appreciate your recognition of reality.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

trannyism can be hazardous to your health

http://oaklandnorth.net/2012/05/02/...ndy-martell-raises-concerns-about-hate-crime/

Ban bait?

 

[Brian Griffin]

stuff

This post can be hazardous to your account's health.

 

[lexi]

That's not a very creative account suicide.

C- Apply yourself!

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Thanks for the tip.

 

[RyougaSaotome]

"I don't see race" is the first thing that pops into my mind.

Don't even get me started on that. orz

Also, worst account suicide attempt ever.

 

[tiff]

"I don't see race" is the first thing that pops into my mind.

Yup.

 

[InfiniteNine]

Posting on behalf of someone who doesn't want to be public~

It's all well and good that you want to be freed of labels and the like usea, but what you seemingly forget in your zeal is that while a label is mutable and at times arbitrary, the labelled can be anything but. Whether you call a colour rouge, rot, or red, these labels nonetheless describe a physically coherent wavelength of visible light, and to treat the label as being irrelevant or inconsequental is nothing but pure folly, doubly so because it impedes expedient exploration and understanding of the things labelled. Hold labels to a high standard, that's fine, but this level of distaste frustrates your friend for good reason. She doubtlessly wants to convey some of what she's feeling and going through, but it's already an uphill battle to try to give a sense of her struggle to one who doesn't share it, and even worse now that you insist on stripping descriptive, relevant labels of their meaning in discussions with you. You're creating a great deal of needless obfuscation.

 

[tearsofash]

I came out to my dad last week. He didn't really understand it. I tried to explain the best I could, but he always has questions. He works from home and has a lot of free time on his hands.

He sent me a really respectful email today, saying that he's not trying to persuade me but that I should look at this article and it might explain these "feelings" I'm having.

http://www.dldewey.com/columns/soyupdf.htm

I remember hearing about this way back when I was in high school, that soy products would mess up a male's hormones - making them more feminine among other things. It would do quite a bit more damage to babies ingesting soy-based formula.

I don't doubt the article's validity, but I doubt the point my dad is trying to make with it. These changes, made in young childhood, would then be permanent? I don't consume soy products that often anymore, and I still have these feelings. I'd like to think that I was born this way, and that it wasn't an external influence. Even if it was an external influence, I suppose it permanently changed my brain chemistry to feel this way.

What do you all make of this? I see the points the article makes, but I'm having a hard time connecting the implications it brings up.

 

[lexi]

You would have to consume a ridiculous amount of soy products for a very long time for it to have any influence whatsoever, and even then, it wouldn't 'change' how you felt at all. The soy thing is mostly just propaganda from various other vested special interests.

 

[thatbox]

I came out to my dad last week. He didn't really understand it. I tried to explain the best I could, but he always has questions. He works from home and has a lot of free time on his hands.

He sent me a really respectful email today, saying that he's not trying to persuade me but that I should look at this article and it might explain these "feelings" I'm having.

http://www.dldewey.com/columns/soyupdf.htm

I remember hearing about this way back when I was in high school, that soy products would mess up a male's hormones - making them more feminine among other things. It would do quite a bit more damage to babies ingesting soy-based formula.

I don't doubt the article's validity, but I doubt the point my dad is trying to make with it. These changes, made in young childhood, would then be permanent? I don't consume soy products that often anymore, and I still have these feelings. I'd like to think that I was born this way, and that it wasn't an external influence. Even if it was an external influence, I suppose it permanently changed my brain chemistry to feel this way.

What do you all make of this? I see the points the article makes, but I'm having a hard time connecting the implications it brings up.

You were born this way.

I'm trying to find my other video lecture on this, give me a minute.

Here we go.

Anything that made you this way made you this way in the womb.

 

[tearsofash]

You would have to consume a ridiculous amount of soy products for a very long time for it to have any influence whatsoever, and even then, it wouldn't 'change' how you felt at all. The soy thing is mostly just propaganda from various other vested special interests.

Figured as much. I couldn't help but wonder. I did guzzle down quite a few litres of chocolate soy milk back in the day.

Thanks thatbox for the links, really helpful.

 

[kehs]

I don't think its fair to pile onto usea for his(?) declarations about genders. I will say he is in the minority when it comes to seeing past superficial characteristics of a person.

However, you guys , especially, should be able to see how seemingly insurmountable it is to be in someone else's shoes for situations like trans life.

 

[thatbox]

I don't think its fair to pile onto usea for his(?) declarations about genders. I will say he is in the minority when it comes to seeing past superficial characteristics of a person.

However, you guys , especially, should be able to see how seemingly insurmountable it is to be in someone else's shoes for situations like trans life.

As I understood it, that's what people were trying to tell him, right?

 

[kehs]

As I understood it, that's what people were trying to tell him, right?

Right, but it seems to me there's an unneeded sense of animosity in the responses instead.

 

[thatbox]

Right, but it seems to me there's an unneeded sense of animosity in the responses instead.

Well, he specifically dismissed that explanation by saying that he needn't be trans to understand being trans (while simultaneously claiming he doesn't understand the way his friend feels about gender identity). He also said he thought he'd handle being trans differently (the implication was more calmly, or "better") than his friend. I can understand why people took exception to those sentiments.