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[Dariee]

I’m honestly not sure what you’re asking.

But, having made the same mistake in the past, and feeling guilty about it, I feel the need to say that you should put a space between trans or cis and man or woman, e.g. trans woman instead of transwoman.

Done, thank you for letting me know. If I may ask, why is language in this form preferred (what's the thought behind the spaces)?


Oh, and what I initially was asking: for as far as my knowledge goes (and this is limited, hence the question!) non-binary gender-identities oppose the whole dichotomous 'male vs. female' way of thinking. To me, that includes many (maybe all) trans*-identities as well. But that's only an assumption - and it's subjective - , so therefore I'm asking whether I'm right or wrong.

For I could be wrong, as a trans woman could simply identify as being a woman (as opposed to a man), thus having no need for a broader gender-approach within society. While on the other hand, a trans*-identity could be one of many arguments to why there is more to gender and sex(uality) than looking at it as male-versus-female-based i.e. the way society does at the moment.

Maybe the anwers to my questions differs per trans*-identity, for there are many. Or maybe the difference in answer (if there is) is based on individual experience. Whatever it might be, I'm curious to learn.

 

[alysonwheel]

Done, thank you for letting me know. If I may ask, why is language in this form preferred (what's the thought behind the spaces)?

I believe it arose because many people got into the habit of talking about "women and transwomen" as if they are two different things. The space is supposed to emphasise that trans is the adjective to woman's noun, such that a trans woman is not distinct from woman the way a transwoman is. If that makes sense. I am sleepy.

edit: think of it like sexuality. We don't say gaywoman and straightwoman.

For I could be wrong, as a trans woman could simply identify as being a woman (as opposed to a man), thus having no need for a broader gender-approach within society. While on the other hand, a trans*-identity could be one of many arguments to why there is more to gender and sex(uality) than looking at it as male-versus-female-based i.e. the way society does at the moment.

Yeah. I don't really think of myself as having a transgender identity: I'm a trans woman but I'm basically just a boring woman with no real kind of non-binary identity. That's not to say there aren't a bunch of people who really are transgender, but not me

 

[Jamie xxoo]

I think the binary system is fine, maybe add androgynous for someone who feels they are neither.

Edit: As a trans person I always felt my thoughts, feelings and perceptions were female and my body was male, until I aligned my body with my thoughts. Now instead of having a brain on one side of the binary and a body on the other, both are on the same side. I did not feel like a third gender when my brain and body were in different gender camps. The parts of my body that aren't aligned (not having a womb, chromosomes), I feel are gender binary defects, rather than things that give me a third gender identity.

 

[Platy]

For me a Transexual women/men is exactly a women/men.

But this is not in favor of binary because there is LOTS of non binary transgender people. Fluidy people, people who are at 0.5 and 0.7 ..... people who are neither, people who are both

 

[lexi]

For I could be wrong, as a trans woman could simply identify as being a woman (as opposed to a man), thus having no need for a broader gender-approach within society. While on the other hand, a trans*-identity could be one of many arguments to why there is more to gender and sex(uality) than looking at it as male-versus-female-based i.e. the way society does at the moment.

Maybe the anwers to my questions differs per trans*-identity, for there are many. Or maybe the difference in answer (if there is) is based on individual experience. Whatever it might be, I'm curious to learn.

In my experience I've found the only thing unifying the trans* community is just how diverse it is. You'll rarely ever see somebody with the same story as somebody else.

Most of the trans people I know go about in a binary kinda way, however I've known lots of non-binary trans people, however I just can't seem to wrap my head around it, I want to be able to identify people as either male or female. This is just me and the way I feel about it, though. The binary is strong in me.

 

[Femmeworth]

"Male" and "female" designate sex, not gender. *twitches* Anyway, I don't view gender as something that is strictly black and white. Like sexuality, it's a continuum.

 

[Jamie xxoo]

Zuh? I thought male and female were genders.

 

[Hop]

Zuh? I thought male and female were genders.

Yea, I've used "man" and "woman" as the sexes and "male" and "female" as the genders.


....So as lexi said, the trans community has near-cartoon levels of continuity and consistency.

 

[Jamie xxoo]

Well to be honest I'm not really in a trans community, I just post on a message board. My real life trans friends who I've met in person total to... 1, and she lives in a different state, and I haven't seen her in two years, and we've only met once, when we were both having surgeries at the same time. So, no wonder I'm not up to speed on any set of label conventions. I suspect I'm not the only trans poster here in this situation.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Well to be honest I'm not really in a trans community, I just post on a message board. My real life trans friends who I've met in person total to... 1, and she lives in a different state, and I haven't seen her in two years, and we've only met once, when we were both having surgeries at the same time. So, no wonder I'm not up to speed on any set of label conventions. I suspect I'm not the only trans poster here in this situation.

*shrug* It's not really a big deal. What you're doing for yourself is much more important than remembering labels. I wouldn't really worry about it.

 

[fireside]

Oh, and what I initially was asking: for as far as my knowledge goes (and this is limited, hence the question!) non-binary gender-identities oppose the whole dichotomous 'male vs. female' way of thinking. To me, that includes many (maybe all) trans*-identities as well. But that's only an assumption - and it's subjective - , so therefore I'm asking whether I'm right or wrong.

For I could be wrong, as a trans woman could simply identify as being a woman (as opposed to a man), thus having no need for a broader gender-approach within society. While on the other hand, a trans*-identity could be one of many arguments to why there is more to gender and sex(uality) than looking at it as male-versus-female-based i.e. the way society does at the moment.

Maybe the anwers to my questions differs per trans*-identity, for there are many. Or maybe the difference in answer (if there is) is based on individual experience. Whatever it might be, I'm curious to learn.

I don’t like pegging people into holes, so I suppose I don’t agree with the “gender binary”. I think man and woman are gender identities, but I don’t think they’re the only ones, or that man and woman are normal and anyone who falls outside those two choices isn’t.

 

[Femmeworth]

Well, I try to view everything from a scientific perspective, so that affects my view on things. "Male" and "female" can designate gender, but I don't think they should be used that way, particularly by trans people.

Yea, I've used "man" and "woman" as the sexes and "male" and "female" as the genders.

Huh, what country are you from? I forget that differing countries and languages will complicate this discussion.

*shrug* It's not really a big deal. What you're doing for yourself is much more important than remembering labels. I wouldn't really worry about it.

That's like saying a black person shouldn't care about race! /not quite serious

 

[Hop]

Huh, what country are you from? I forget that differing countries and languages will complicate this discussion.

USA. But I'm not gonna even sit here and pretend that's consistent among all American trans folk, that's just what I use since it's what makes the most sense to me (a man is a type of person, that usually acts male, for example).

 

[Femmeworth]

USA. But I'm not gonna even sit here and pretend that's consistent among all American trans folk, that's just what I use since it's what makes the most sense to me (a man is a type of person, that usually acts male, for example).

Oh, that's right. I was mixing you up with another TransGAFer.

 

[EatChildren]

Feminist/equality movements generally argue for the use of man/woman when describing associated sex of a person, while male/female are reserved for specific gender definition.

 

[Femmeworth]

Feminist/equality movements generally argue for the use of man/woman when describing associated sex of a person, while male/female are reserved for specific gender definition.

See that doesn't make sense to me.

 

[EatChildren]

See that doesn't make sense to me.

It stems from the complexity of sexual and gender identity versus scientific definition of biological makeup, the former being several shades of grey and the latter relatively black and white. We can ascribe male/female descriptors based on chromosomes and their associated physically matured attributes, but gender identity is completely different, more complex, and not often alligned with chromosome makeup.

You can be born 'male' by all scientific definition, but associate your gender with that of a female, vice versa, or anywhere in between. Equality movements strive to seperate the two lables so we still have a known scientific definition, but one that doesn't apply blanket generalisations to the complexity of the human psyche.

The same applies to sexuality. Gay/straight/bi themselves are arguably too binary. Just as with gender identity, sexual identity is equally complex and varied between person to person.

 

[InfiniteNine]

I'm so confused right now.

 

[Femmeworth]

It stems from the complexity of sexual and gender identity versus scientific definition of biological makeup, the former being several shades of grey and the latter relatively black and white. We can ascribe male/female descriptors based on chromosomes and their associated physically matured attributes, but gender identity is completely different, more complex, and not often alligned with chromosome makeup.

You can be born 'male' by all scientific definition, but associate your gender with that of a female, vice versa, or anywhere in between. Equality movements strive to seperate the two lables so we still have a known scientific definition, but one that doesn't apply blanket generalisations to the complexity of the human psyche.

The same applies to sexuality. Gay/straight/bi themselves are arguably too binary. Just as with gender identity, sexual identity is equally complex and varied between person to person.

I think you got that mixed up. I don't disagree with the rest of what you said, though.

 

[EatChildren]

I think you got that mixed up.

Maybe confusing wording, but no, not really. You are either born male/female, based on chromosones, but there is no known method for defining a person's gender or sexual identity at birth. A trans person will still be born with the associated male/female chromosones (as traditionally defined).

The problem is the application of gender and sexual identity to this definition. Traditionally we assume person born as a male will have the gender identity of a male, as well as the sexual identity of a straight male. The arguments for equality say this is (obviously) untrue. The two descriptors are seperate and one is not necessarily an indicator of the others, or how the others will develop.

So, when we say "THIS PERSON IS A FEMALE" we tend to lump a whole bunch of shit under that descriptor due to social stigmas and archaic behavior lables history has groomed us to believe.

It's a rabbit hole of psychology and science that, as far as I'm aware, we still don't fully understand. But yeah. The argument is that when Mumma EatChildren pushes EatChildren out, doctors still have scientific definition to say "this person was born male/female", but ideally we wouldn't ascribe personal gender or sexual identity to this definition. I might be born male/female, but my personal gender and sexual identity is (at this point) an unknown.

EDIT: Actually yeah, maybe I did get them the wrong way around.

 

[Dariee]

Wow, thanks a lot for the many replies! Hope I didn't offend anyone with such an 'experience' based question, as I'm just eager to learn.


@ Femmeworth

Thought about that later as well. Maybe I went a step ahead with using gender and sex interchangably (i.e. to me, both being in a way a construct). Should have known better, I'm sorry.


@ langauge discussion in general

EuroGAF here and didn't know about the difference between man/male or woman/female as I thought that 'masuciline' and 'feminine' were to describe gender identities. So if I understand things correctly now, man/woman refers to sex and male/female to gender, right?

 

[EatChildren]

As Femmeworth said I got it the wrong way around. Male/Female describe genetic sex, whereas Man/Woman should describe gender identity.

 

[alysonwheel]

As Femmeworth said I got it the wrong way around. Male/Female describe genetic sex, whereas Man/Woman should describe gender identity.

This, plus masculine/feminine to describe gender presentation (i.e. you can be a man and be feminine, or be a woman and be masculine).

 

[Jamie xxoo]

@ langauge discussion in general

EuroGAF here and didn't know about the difference between man/male or woman/female as I thought that 'masuciline' and 'feminine' were to describe gender identities. So if I understand things correctly now, man/woman refers to sex and male/female to gender, right?

I so disagree with that, not based on anything I've read, it just sounds wrong. Could swear it should be the other way around. Like if you are FTM transsexual you would be arguably female in terms of chromosomes but you'd be a man based on outward appearance. That seems to make more sense doesn't it?

Edit: Assuming the FTM here has transitioned, taken testosterone, had breast removal etc)
Edit 2: Oh that's what the others are saying now.

 

[Dariee]

Got it now

Oh, and lol at my own miswriting as 'masuciline' when I meant 'masculine'.

 

[EatChildren]

This, plus masculine/feminine to describe gender presentation (i.e. you can be a man and be feminine, or be a woman and be masculine).

An interesting thought experiment is to think about how we'd develop as people in a society where a person is born with only genetic sex descriptors, and is otherwise legitimately considered by parents and society as a whole as a 'blank slate' of gender and sexual identity, with the various shades of grey composing each and the multitude of personality combinations all considered equally valid and accepted. That a parent and society would consider the possibility of their genetically male child growing up to associate with a female gender identity, and also bi-curious, no less or more likely than them growing up straight and masculine.

Would a total absence of gender precedent and absolute acceptance of any gender/sexuality identity combination change a 'trans persons' manner of body perception?

 

[Jamie xxoo]

Nope. Not for me.

 

[alysonwheel]

Would a total absence of gender precedent and absolute acceptance of any gender/sexuality identity combination change a 'trans persons' manner of body perception?

That feels like kind of the wrong question? I know of many trans people who aren't particularly bothered by their genitals and many trans people who aren't bothered about passing; it may be that in the world you describe these people wouldn't transition -- at least, not the way we do now -- but would express their gender without any kind of medical intervention. I'm sort of assuming your world has slightly better health science than ours, too, since in our world I'm not sure how sustainable a non-op hormone dose is long-term, and many trans people who otherwise would not have bothered with genital surgery get it done for that reason; others because their country won't let them change their birth certificate without it.

Similarly, I can be pretty sure I would still have medically transitioned even in a blank-slate world where social transition is unnecessary. I was extremely unhappy with my body from a very early age, and I don't believe that would have changed in your world.

So I guess by the wrong question I mean it's not that trans people's body perception would change, but that body perception varies within trans populations already, and a different society would lead to different outcomes for some.

 

[EatChildren]

That's why it's a thought experiment . No right or wrong answers, but clarification and insight.

 

[alysonwheel]

Yeah, it's interesting to think about. Yes, I think I would have transitioned, but I often wonder if my level of femininity today (I am a class 5, or "giggling mess") has been influenced by the insecurities of transition. As in, some trans women go more feminine than feels natural to them because they're worried about not passing if they don't; I went in the other direction, as during and after transition I didn't want to appear "fake" and I'd internalised a lot of the patriarchal bullshit about feminine identities being somehow inauthentic, mannered, and put-on. I dismantled this as I got older, and I'm pretty much myself now, with no filters, but would I be more feminine now if I'd never done that? Would I be more or less feminine now if I hadn't had to hide behind a stone man until I was twenty?

Dunno

 

[Wired]

Hello there. I'm new here (as if it weren't obvious enough haha). I've recently come out to a couple friends about being a girl trapped in a boys body, and they've all stopped talking to me, so I'd just like a place to come to if I want to talk about it. I'm not as far as half of you girls out there, but I'm slowly working my way there.

This took a lot for me to even type this, I'm not sure why. I know I won't be treated like I'm some kind of freak, but I guess that's what I get for being a nervous wreck.
Anyway, I hope to feel welcome here, and I hope to hear from some of you sometime soon.

Have a good evening everyone!

Just started reading through the tread for some reason and happened to read this. And well that's just awful, just remember that it's not you it's them damn it. People can be such assholes sometimes and I just don't understand it. You're the same person now as you were before you told them, just can't wrap my head around why it would change anything... Gah, sorry it's just that stuff like this makes me angry

 

[thatbox]

This book covers a lot of the language and continuum stuff very well, if anyone is interested in further reading.

 

[iirate]

This book covers a lot of the language and continuum stuff very well, if anyone is interested in further reading.

I just finished this a couple of months ago, and would also recommend it.

 

[Jamie xxoo]

Is it written from a gender-is-political/societal angle?

 

[alysonwheel]

It's written from a "gender roles are societal, gender identity is not" angle

It's good.

 

[Jamie xxoo]

Hmm well that doesn't sound too annoying, I'll stop actively avoiding it.

I bought 3 inch heels today because screw short men, and actually screw men in general I'm fed up with them.

 

[tearsofash]

I finished pledging for a queer and allied fraternity last weekend. It's mostly gay guys, but there are a few trans men in the group. Even though it's male only, I'm glad they recognize anyone who identifies as male.

It gets kinda interesting hanging around a group of mostly of gay males doing a lot of drag for particular events, though. I'm not a huge fan of it, but I do like transvestism (it scratches that itch as a pretransition trans woman). I don't like how it over sexualizes women and is all "showy." I know the point is usually for entertainment, but I find it odd how much drag goes on. Maybe it's just the group.

I am glad that nationals said that should I choose to transition later on, that I'd still be considered a brother. I... Just hope they can take it seriously and not treat me like I'm trying to do drag or something.

Sorry for the tiny rant. I haven't posted in a while, and that I should share something once in a while.

 

[Gregorn]

Hmm well that doesn't sound too annoying, I'll stop actively avoiding it.

I bought 3 inch heels today because screw short men, and actually screw men in general I'm fed up with them.

Reading this thread can get so confusing.

 

[lexi]

Hmm well that doesn't sound too annoying, I'll stop actively avoiding it.

I bought 3 inch heels today because screw short men, and actually screw men in general I'm fed up with them.

I know plenty of tall women who rock heels. I don't think I'm game enough for that yet, I'm pushing it as it is with 1 inch wedges and sandals.

 

[InfiniteNine]

I need some heels! I want to be taller. ;~;

 

[Jamie xxoo]

Reading this thread can get so confusing.

I'd be happy to explain if you'd like to say what's confusing you.

 

[Kentpaul]

tall women wearing High heels defeats the point of high heels.

 

[Jamie xxoo]

I was looking at shoes a few hours after my ex, who is half an inch taller at 5'10.5" was randomly nasty over text because he's still sore at me for breaking up with him after New Years, and just after yet another passive aggressive remark from a "friend" who's been alternately chasing me and being nasty, because some friend of his asked if I was single after seeing me on his Facebook, and I was just, I'm DONE WITH MEN AND THEIR MOODINESS/POSSESSIVENESS/EXPECTATIONS. I'm fed up with the mind games and drama. Looking at the shoes I was like, I LOVE the way wedges look but I've always worn flat shoes so my boyfriend would be taller and I'd be more attractive to him. But I'm not with him now, and I don't want to be with another guy no matter how tall or short he is, so who's ego am I protecting/who am I trying to be attractive for?

That's when I said screw men, Ima wear heels.

As a special bonus my girlfriend (who was originally a one-time girl/girl experiment I decided to try thanks to my bf having a lesbian/threesome fantasy, which kind
of backfired in that now we're together and he's out of the picture) thinks heels are hot. Win.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Heels are awful but I know I'm in the minority with that opinion.

 

[mescalineeyes]

That's when I said screw men, Ima wear heels.

I feel properly screwed! Please keep punishing us like this!

- A (tall) man.

 

[Jamie xxoo]

I feel properly screwed! Please keep punishing us like this!

- A (tall) man.

Ok I LOLed.

 

[InfiniteNine]

You're only enticing them Jamie!

 

[Hop]

Heels are awful but I know I'm in the minority with that opinion.

I'm over 6 foot, so I avoid them as a matter of practicality. I do not need to be taller.

But then when I go shoe shopping I keep finding myself migrating towards them. I never get them (partly because my feet are huge) but I want them.

So I don't know. :/

 

[Platy]

I am glad that nationals said that should I choose to transition later on, that I'd still be considered a brother. I... Just hope they can take it seriously and not treat me like I'm trying to do drag or something.

I know they mean well ... but ... ouch =/

Heels are awful but I know I'm in the minority with that opinion.

I'm with you ... specialy those stiletto ones .. I have an urge to scream behind any person that i see using one of those in the streets, just to see the person going crazy and falling ><
And everytime I see an action women using any kinf of heels I die a little inside

But then again i'm one of those feminists who hates any kind of heels =P

 

[SorchaR]

Meh, my husband is half a head shorter then I am, who cares. It makes for interesting cuddles when I'm in high heels though, he never seems to mind ^-^

if you want to wear high heels go for it, it will make you feel sexy and empowered.