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[Curufinwe]

so, you're saying we should freeze women out of competitive golf and tennis... nice

No, that's what the poster he quoted is saying.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Who would disagree with that?

The problem is that these aren't equal at the top tier of most physically active sports. Even your link you provided says that this was a second tier tournament. She didn't place first either?

?

I addressed that in the same post.

I said if men and women had been competing alongside each other for decades, and even centuries, that instead of completely lopsided, things would be a bit closer to equal.

I did.

But you're not being clear.

We're obviously talking about equally skilled participants. I thought that was implicit by the discussion topic.

It's a HS track meet.

I guess you didn't read my other posts - I was talking in hypotheticals about different sports and the playing field across genders.

The only thing we've learned in this thread is that if QuantumZebra wants to make a bet with you, you're about to make some money.

Considering I just linked a tournament where a woman placed 73rd out of 113 male golfers... you're about to lose some money.

 

[Arkeband]

Ask the people who started the PGA Tour? I don't know.

I would definitely bet a $20 that if women and men had been playing together for decades that there would be women ranked in the top 100 of both genders.

The only thing we've learned in this thread is that if QuantumZebra wants to make a bet with you, you're about to make some money.

 

[BronsonLee]

?

I addressed that in the same post.

I said if men and women had been competing alongside each other for decades, and even centuries, that instead of completely lopsided, things would be a bit closer to equal.

Likely true, because genetics would adapt to make things more equal

But right now, nah fam

 

[Justified]

Vaccinations are also a controversial issue.

A girl enters girls competition and is then shouted down because of her genetics, it's fucked no matter how indifferently it's stated.

Hmm I guess you are coming for me rather than the general discussion.

Anyways Im not shouting down her gender, or even her competing, because I believe she should.

Now I will admit Im not sure in what league, because while its possible its not an issue in her case, but overall the physiological difference will be (in Sports), not everyone does HRT

 

[Kinokou]

Honestly I think it isn't possible to say that a society is fully transinclusive if they bar transpersons from competing with the gender they identify as.

 

[Apathy]

Pretty sure there is not a single female pro athlete who would want to compete against men.

They know that it wouldn't be a fair competition between athletes anymore which is like the central point of sports.

Haley Wickenheiser wanted to and did play with men in a mens league in europe and was the first woman to score a goal in a men's professional league.

Danielle Dube
Manon Rhéaume
Shannon Szabados first woman to earn a shut out against a men's professional team.

Fun fact, all Canadian

 

[Trojita]

I addressed that in the same post.

I said if men and women had been competing alongside each other for decades, and even centuries, that instead of completely lopsided, things would be a bit closer to equal.

I doubt that. Strength and natural talent doesn't accumulate that way in genetics. This sounds like something HolyBaikal said.

 

[Boney]

Now I'm curious. Is pro chess segregated by gender?
I wouldn't think so but you never know.

 

[BronsonLee]

I doubt that. This sounds like something HolyBaikal said.

Baikal also refused to read any textbooks so

 

[QuantumZebra]

I doubt that. This sounds like something HolyBaikal said.

I don't know who that is, and if you don't think that women would be able to compete alongside men more equally if they had been doing so for centuries... then I have no clue what to tell you.

I doubt that. Strength and natural talent doesn't accumulate that way in genetics. This sounds like something HolyBaikal said.

Looks like you threw an edit in there.

Sociological ramifications of girls training alongside boys play a gigantic role in how people shape out

And I'm not sure how up to date you are on evolution, adaptation, and biology, but if people train at something for centuries, those traits can and do carry down.

Not to mention, if there were an equal number of girls golf squads as boys, and they competed against each other, I cannot fathom how you do not think that women's skill levels and competition would not be higher overall.

 

[Nathan_Drake]

Glad I could entertain you.



MMA is far more dependent on physical attributes than archery, for instance. Hence why I said a male fighter of equal skill would win 9.5 times out of 10 vs. a female fighter.

However, a male and female golfer of equal skill and size, I would say the male would win 6-7 times out of 10, accounting for his (assumed) strength advantage in his swing.

Where are you coming up with these numbers? I guess opinions and all but there is no point of writing them. They literally add no weight to your argument. You cant just guesstimate statistics. Thats not how it works ha. 9.5 out of 10? Round down. 4.25 out of 5. Or just .95 out of 1 or maybe 95%. Insert Anchorman quote here....works everytime.

 

[TheExecutive]

Her gender may be female but her sex is male and sports are divided between the sexes to keep MORE people active and healthy. If you get rid of SEX lines in sports you just cut out almost all girls and women in competitive sports. It's an utterly rediculous argument to make that should take one second to come up with and another second to dismiss.

 

[Bearjewpiter]

Humanity is sexually dimorphic and there's not a whole lot we can do about it. Therapy does reduce the factors certainly but the fact is that human males are (generally) biologically designed to be physically larger and thus able to do more physical labor and then die in order to protect the children while human females are designed to survive in order to protect, and make more, children. That's just the bare minimum that we as humans are made to do. It should therefore be no surprise that one would have an advantage over the other in contests of physical strength and endurance (this is of course just in general, there are plenty of women who are faster, stronger, and better at sport than men). I personally would like to see multi-gender sports based more on player skill (like eSports) but with the ways that humans like to categorize and order everything I doubt there will be a lack of pushing back by some.

They can follow Olympics rules and simply do a testosterone check, under a certain level you're allowed to participate with girls/women. I don't think there are any restrictions on female-to-male athletes.

This might be a good answer, pretty cut-and-dry so there wouldn't be a lot of confusion as to why someone was or wasn't allowed to compete. Not perfect but it's a start.

 

[kirblar]

Now I'm curious. Is pro chess segregated by gender?
I wouldn't think so but you never know.

There's both open tournament and women's tournaments.

It's not really about competition/skill levels- it's about being able to both highlight female competitors and allow them their own social space. Boys/Men really, really like competition and it warps social norms in these types of environments.

 

[entremet]

Now I'm curious. Is pro chess segregated by gender?
I wouldn't think so but you never know.

It's not segregated by gender.

 

[Aurongel]

?

I addressed that in the same post.

I said if men and women had been competing alongside each other for decades, and even centuries, that instead of completely lopsided, things would be a bit closer to equal.

You must be a special kind of foolish if you think a few decades of fierce competition are going to rewrite thousands of years of evolutionary divergence. That's not how genetics works.

 

[Nickle]

I said if men and women had been competing alongside each other for decades, and even centuries, that instead of completely lopsided, things would be a bit closer to equal.

So women currently just aren't trying hard enough? I don't see how past efforts from female athletes would make current women more skilled in sports.

 

[StrangeTaco]

This is a pretty tough issue. I know the Olympics have made a ruling on this issue already but to be fair considering the level they compete on someone with gender dysphoria competing in the Olympics is much less likely. The testosterone checks would probably be a good place to start though for transgender competition at high school level and above. If this becomes a more widespread issue I think more research might need to be done though.

 

[Odrion]

This seems like something that would be traumatizing to a trans teen though.

Shit, true.

She has a right to compete and win if she is able.

It's like when black people started gaining rights and began playing sports beating out a lot of white players for positions and awards. People will have to adjust and accept it.

I kinda like this sentiment.

 

[Future]

Sexes are segregated in sports due to physical differences. It's not about who you identify as, it's about your body's anatomy. It's not tricky unless you find it insensitive to admit this. You can be a female, but if your body's anatomy isn't then it's pretty clear you shouldn't be competing in a female league. That's why the term trans is used at all

If the world was built thinking that everyone is human and sexes don't matter, and instead of sex segregation leagues are only based on weight and size, then none of this would be an issue I suppose. That's a tough concept to break though considering that the sexes are separated even when physical differences mean nothing (oscars for example). But it could be possible.

 

[Jack Random]

Oops, delete please

 

[Zoe]

It's just some state event who cares. Totally Unsurprising many of don't understand what a state title or placing means

Lot of people's futures ride on these events

It's also still a team competition on top of the individual placings.

 

[Dark Ninja]

Its not an honor to be 3rd place or 2nd they are still losers. Nothing to get mad at.

 

[.JayZii]

If said trans girl transitioned before puberty, then I think it's fine for her to compete in her gender group/league/whatever. Otherwise, we're walking into some weird territory of... gender imperialism? I don't know what to call it.

?

I addressed that in the same post.

I said if men and women had been competing alongside each other for decades, and even centuries, that instead of completely lopsided, things would be a bit closer to equal.



I guess you didn't read my other posts - I was talking in hypotheticals about different sports and the playing field across genders.

Well let's integrate everything, and then cis women can just suck it up and take their losses for the next couple centuries till genetics work themselves out. Truly a victory for progressive values.

 

[Jack Random]

I... what? I'm saying that if the female/male distinction were dissolved in those sports, that is what would freeze them out of competition.

i misread and am an ass, deleting!

 

[Izuna]

there are interesting studies on why women never get as good as males at games like chess and go. lots of theories, nothing concrete.

 

[Calamari41]

Correct.

Lets use Tennis for example. The Williams sisters once claimed that they thought they could beat any male playing outside of the top 200 (two hundred) ranked men.

a chain-smoking number 203 crushed them.

by eliminating that distinction, you're taking two of the best female tennis players who have ever lived and relegating them to sub-200 rankings

When will you see a woman in the finals?

I think you misinterpreted my initial post, because based on what you just said we are 100% in agreement and we are arguing the exact same thing.

i misread and am an ass, deleting!

Don't worry about it, these things happen! I'm glad we got it cleared up.

 

[QuantumZebra]

So women currently just aren't trying hard enough? I don't see how past efforts from female athletes would make current women more skilled in sports.

You must be a special kind of foolish if you think a few decades of fierce competition are going to rewrite thousands of years of evolutionary divergence. That's not how genetics works.

Nice subtle insult there, it's a shame you're not even reading what I said thoroughly.
---

I'm beginning to think my posts are being wildly misinterpreted, or I don't have enough time to explain myself between trying to get some work done.

It is very simple:

If women were allowed to compete alongside men since the 1700s in Golf, for instance, it is extremely logical to say that the overall level of women's competitiveness in Golf would be higher, and that women would rank better against men they competed against in the current day and age.

I don't know how to explain myself better than that.

 

[Trojita]

Its not an honor to be 3rd place or 2nd they are still losers. Nothing to get mad at.

Okay Ricky Bobby.

 

[LizardKing]

Yes, I agree. Letting girls compete with girls is a disservice to girls.

Girls who spent a portion of their life developing as boys. The entire reason we have sex separation in sports is to diminish inherent biological advantages in developing as one or the other. Allowing trans girls to compete with girls who have developed as girls their whole life is unfair. This violates the reason the sexes were separated to begin with. This is not like bathrooms or locker rooms or changing rooms or whatever where it doesn't matter who you used to be or how you developed. Young girls can also have opportunities riding on how well they perform so to take away fair competition is hurting them.

 

[TheSlySoul]

Honestly this is a toughie.
I do think each athlete should have the equal amounts of estro. and test. when competing...

 

[Orbis Tabula]

3rd place is the difference between advancing to the next round and going home empty-handed.

Ah, I hadn't fully considered that. I definitely can understand the frustration then.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

I support trans rights and am all for equality, but equality does not mean denying basic science. A trans high school senior girl (so 17 or 18yo) who was born biologically male has clear physical advantages over most girls around that age. Yes hormone treatment begins to change things but muscle mass, bone density, and testosterone don't disappear over night.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but clearly denying basic facts is not the solution.

 

[entremet]

Nice subtle insult there, it's a shame you're not even reading my posts thoroughly.

---

I'm beginning to think my posts are being wildly misinterpreted, or I don't have enough time to explain myself between trying to get some work done.

It is very simple:

If women were allowed to compete alongside men since the 1700s in Golf, for instance, it is extremely logical to say that the overall level of women's competitiveness in Golf would be higher, and that women would rank better against men they competed against in the current day and age.

I don't know how to explain myself better than that.

Not quite since driving averages for men are higher.

If it was only a pure putting competition, you'd have a better argument.

 

[Boney]

There's both open tournament and women's tournaments.

It's not really about competition/skill levels- it's about being able to both highlight female competitors and allow them their own social space. Boys/Men really, really like competition and it warps social norms in these types of environments.

I see. Sounds like esports minus the harrasment factor that limits female participation.

 

[Milton]

Honestly I think it isn't possible to say that a society is fully transinclusive if they bar transpersons from competing with the gender they identify as.

But gender isn't the same thing as sex, or so I'm led to believe.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Not quite since driving averages for men are higher.

If it was only a pure putting competition, you'd have a better argument.

I'm just gonna bash my head on my desk.

---

Would men still have an advantage? Of course.

But would women overall in competitions be placing higher than 73rd out of 113 in a tournament against men (like Annika Sorenstam literally did)? Yes, they would be.

Or, they would be crushed and devastated and lose all interest in continuing on with the sport.

When one of the greatest female golfers of all time, who won 72 LPGA titles and 10 major championships, places 73rd among men... well, there's only so much that competitive drive while growing up can make up for. I would argue that Sorenstam gained more drive by seeing her work pay off with success against other women than she would have had getting crushed by boys/men through her life.

Thats a mighty fine assumption you're making there.

So pro football players who are on losing teams just quit the NFL because their team sucks or their playing has declined?

Do golfers just say fuck golf when they get beat by a superior player?

Oh, wait, no, they don't. Because that is idiotic.

 

[Calamari41]

It is very simple:

If women were allowed to compete alongside men since the 1700s in Golf, for instance, it is extremely logical to say that the overall level of women's competitiveness in Golf would be higher, and that women would rank better against men they competed against in the current day and age.

I don't know how to explain myself better than that.

Or, they would be crushed and devastated and lose all interest in continuing on with the sport.

When one of the greatest female golfers of all time, who won 72 LPGA titles and 10 major championships, places 73rd among men... well, there's only so much that competitive drive while growing up can make up for. I would argue that Sorenstam gained more drive by seeing her work pay off with success against other women than she would have had getting crushed by boys/men through her life.

 

[Lowmelody]

This thread will look so quaint in a few short years. I hope.

 

[Nickle]

I'm beginning to think my posts are being wildly misinterpreted, or I don't have enough time to explain myself between trying to get some work done.

It is very simple:

If women were allowed to compete alongside men since the 1700s in Golf, for instance, it is extremely logical to say that the overall level of women's competitiveness in Golf would be higher, and that women would rank better against men they competed against in the current day and age.

I don't know how to explain myself better than that.

But how? It's not like they would have biologically evolved in the past 300 years, and golf skill doesn't get passed down from mother to daughter.

 

[Kinyou]

Recently read this article that adresses women with high testerone level and transgender women.

http://sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/

Pretty interesting read where you get the perspective from a woman who is a scientist, athlete and transgender.
My basic takeaway was is that the biggest influence seems to be testosterone itself. If you leave it unchecked people will have an inherent advantage. but if people receive hormone treatment (like I assume many transgender people do) it levels the playing field again.

 

[SaganIsGOAT]

This thread will look so quaint in a few short years. I hope.

In what respect?

 

[kris.]

edit: nvm

 

[DrROBschiz]

there are interesting studies on why women never get as good as males at games like chess and go. lots of theories, nothing concrete.

For mental contests?

The human brain is so complex i doubt we would ever be able to test it as easily as innate physicality on the field

That said even within mens sports we have things like weight classes etc.

we just need metrics and rules that allow for the fairest contest possible

it will never be perfect

 

[Trojita]

But how? It's not like they would have biologically evolved in the past 300 years, and golf skill doesn't get passed down from mother to daughter.

Fictional Genetics.

 

[LizardKing]

Sexes are segregated in sports due to physical differences. It's not about who you identify as, it's about your body's anatomy. It's not tricky unless you find it insensitive to admit this. You can be a female, but if your body's anatomy isn't then it's pretty clear you shouldn't be competing in a female league. That's why the term trans is used at all

If the world was built thinking that everyone is human and sexes don't matter, and instead of sex segregation leagues are only based on weight and size, then none of this would be an issue I suppose. That's a tough concept to break though considering that the sexes are separated even when physical differences mean nothing (oscars for example). But it could be possible.

The shitty part about this is even then you are doing a disservice to those women. In this case you would bump them up to the "men's" category (if they were taller, stronger, heavier etc.). But where they would have been atop the women's category, they are now likely just average in the men's category therefore taking away those women who would excel at their sports from women's sports. No more Serena Williams for example, it would ruin her career. Maybe those are the breaks though and she is already competing at too much of an advantage?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

The male/female sports distinction ought to be dissolved anyway.

I just can't get behind extreme views like this. There are differences between males and females, especially at the extreme end of things like peak physical performance. Ignoring them or claiming they don't exist isn't going to help anyone.

 

[QuantumZebra]

But how? It's not like they would have biologically evolved in the past 300 years, and golf skill doesn't get passed down from mother to daughter.

1. This isn't even a point I'm trying to make, but biological traits can and are passed down over time, especially 300 years. You are aware the average height, weight, age, etc... of humans has changed measurably over that time, right?

2. Sociology plays a gigantic factor in sports. If you grow up seeing women compete and are pushed to achieve in a sport with no regard to your gender, you are going to be better. The mental side of things is immeasurably important in sports.

Or, they would be crushed and devastated and lose all interest in continuing on with the sport.

When one of the greatest female golfers of all time, who won 72 LPGA titles and 10 major championships, places 73rd among men... well, there's only so much that competitive drive while growing up can make up for. I would argue that Sorenstam gained more drive by seeing her work pay off with success against other women than she would have had getting crushed by boys/men through her life.

And I would argue that having the option to go up against whoever you wanted to in your chosen sport would help make you better.

--

I think some people in here don't play sports or just do not understand how incredibly important it is to play against higher levels of competition. No one is made better by playing a game on easy-mode. If Annika kept competing against men I guarantee she would place higher over time.

The bizarre thing is that some women do have the genetics to be bigger and stronger than the average male

the problem is that when competition approaches the professional level you are lumping the best of the best together

And the very best genetic male is going to have the advantage

This cannot be understated, either.

Pros vs. Pros, you have typically even skill levels and elite athleticism. It is much harder to level out a playing field that way, but it can still be worked towards (which makes women like Annika even more bad-ass).

 

[DrROBschiz]

The shitty part about this is even then you are doing a disservice to those women. In this case you would bump them up to the "men's" category (if they were taller, stronger, heavier etc.). But where they would have been atop the women's category, they are now likely just average in the men's category therefore taking away those women who would excel at their sports from women's sports. No more Serena Williams for example, it would ruin her career.

The bizarre thing is that some women do have the genetics to be bigger and stronger than the average male

the problem is that when competition approaches the professional level you are lumping the best of the best together

And the very best genetic male is going to have the advantage