The 23 year old is in police custody. They are searching for someone else
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Truck plows into market in Berlin killing 12, injuring 48. Suspect shot dead in Italy
- Thread starter Ensirius
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If Merkel had not said something in public then all these refugees obviously would not exist in the world.
The former. They caught the 23 year old, but it wasn't him.
Imp the Dimp
Member
They got the 23yo Pakistani in custody (although his 1.1.93 birthday is likely nonsense) and officials assume his account of the story checks out. He isn't the guy.
The way I read it some guy saw the pakistani running away from the scene and followed him while calling the police and they arrested him as the prime suspect.
No but she wouldn't have signalboosted the message everywhere.
What effect did it have statistically and how would the situation in Europe as a whole look like if she had not said that? Please provide reasonable evidence.
CheDominik
Member
Who would have thunk that the well run citystate of Berlin could bungle this investgation. I'm shocked.
About the date a 1/1 is common among refugees. Many don't know their exact birth date
Lev
Member
Any reason why lately Germany has been plagued with these terrorist attacks? I don't understand why it is the case since Germany's foreign affairs policies haven't done anything to incite Muslim rage, as far as I know. It seems very odd to me that a refugee would commit senseless killings in the country that tried to be a place of refuge for him.
Imp the Dimp
Member
That makes sense, thanks. It's too easy to take things for granted. :/
My parents' birth day isn't 100% known to my parents as well. Documentation wasn't the best in third world countries and even today it's a problem in some.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
It started in mid 2014 in Germany:
https://www.euractiv.com/section/de...n-to-tackle-worst-refugee-crisis-in-50-years/
In late 2014 Merkel chimed in:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-merkel-idUSKBN0K90GL20141231
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...or-distributing-asylum-seekers-in-Europe.html
https://www.ft.com/content/51649d0c-4a7e-11e5-b558-8a9722977189
http://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-agrees-to-spend-6-7-billion-more-on-asylum-seekers-1441610728
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...efugee-crisis-action-as-france-scolds-hungary
http://www.*****************/news/a...grants-wake-refugee-crisis-Mediterranean.html
Daily Mail article.
1. You can send economic refugees back.
2. Obviously refugees want to go to the country they think is best for them, or the country where their family is. But if that doesn't work out they will have to go to other place or go home.
3. Australia implemented an inhumane detention practise for refugees. Europe shouldn't even think about doing a disgraceful thing like that. Also the refugees arriving in Australia flee other situations.
The situation in Syria and some other places is so bad that people would come anyway. Merkels actions didn't have any effect on the refugee stream and treating refugees inhumanely to deter them also wouldn't work. It would just morally bankrupt the EU.
crazy monkey
Banned
Or don't want to remember.
QuicheFontaine
Member
No one will work with meeeeeee!
Best open the floodgates and ruin the whole Schengen area eh?
Oh and be sure to criticise countries like Hungary for doing their job and protecting the border.
Imp the Dimp
Member
SPIEGEL reporting it too now. This is a problem. I work in the Berlin city centre.
It's a little bit odd that suddenly the suspect doesn't seem to be the driver - he was followed by a witness for 2km. But that's something that they can easily find out with DNA and fingerprints ..
What scares me more is that they did not find the weapon that was used to shoot the polish driver .. so even IF the 23 years old suspect was the driver, we are probably dealing with someone else who is in possession of the murder weapon ..
Germany is mourning today, all of my colleagues are depressed (even I'm wearing only black today), no one has the motivation to go onto the christmas markets today .. But isn't this what the terrorists want? To have us struck by fear, not leaving our houses, blaming innocent skapegoats around us?
We have to remember: Daesh hates that all the refugees are coming to Europe. They think that the refugees have to stay at their countries, fighting for Allah besides Daesh. So what's the best thing to do? Spread hate through attacks ..
What scares me more is that they did not find the weapon that was used to shoot the polish driver .. so even IF the 23 years old suspect was the driver, we are probably dealing with someone else who is in possession of the murder weapon ..
Germany is mourning today, all of my colleagues are depressed (even I'm wearing only black today), no one has the motivation to go onto the christmas markets today .. But isn't this what the terrorists want? To have us struck by fear, not leaving our houses, blaming innocent skapegoats around us?
We have to remember: Daesh hates that all the refugees are coming to Europe. They think that the refugees have to stay at their countries, fighting for Allah besides Daesh. So what's the best thing to do? Spread hate through attacks ..
Patrick Bateman
Member
Especially in remote locations when children are born one guy of the village goes to the nearest administrative office every few months and registers the new borns there.
They register the babies when said guy arrives and it's mostly every quarter or half-year.
That's why you see these people having a birthday starting with a 1.
I've seen quite a few Turkish patients who have this, too, althought most of them know their real month and day.
The Hamburglar
Banned
In the last few years with these massive increase in terrorist attacks in Europe. How many are actually home grown by people born there compared to asylum seekers/migrants?
In reality often times no. Because there are no return-agreements and/or other reasons such as the people disappearing, as it happens thousands of times. Look at some of the deportation statistics. So of course the reasonable option is to not let uncontrolled masses in in the first place instead of doing that and then letting them disappear and be surprised about incidents like these.
Yes, I think everyone can understand the thought, but as you said, it cannot work this way and it's not a surprise that many in countries like Finland or even in rural areas in Austria many simply disappear/move into the cities/to other countries or even back.
Again, please look at the statistics and see how few syrians (in comparison to what you would believe hearing most media headlines) there really are among the national statistics. In austria the biggest group are afghans for example. A nation that germany now for example is deporting people back to. As for morally bankrupting the EU, you must have missed the part where the EU (especcially coordinated by Merkel) is paying a turkish dictator to keep refugees away from europe in the southeastern region.
Salty Rice
Member
It was mentioned that the witness followed someone fleeing the scene.
So at worst there was someone following the next best brown guy fleeing a scene because said guy could get injured or killed by a terrorist.
ClosingADoor
Member
Thanks for the link, nothing from earlier then 2015 popped up here for me on the first page. Interesting read, too bad nobody really followed up on it, it seems, including Germany that also said they themselves weren't prepared for much in that article and didn't want to change things:
Thanks for the links, I did indeed miss that call on the EU back then. Although most of your links are from 2015 during the actual crisis I think.
I can however see why other EU countries are not willing to welcome more people, and wanted different policies to instead get less people in.
DieNgamers
Member
Even if none were, the seeds are planted. Times are going to be different at least.
Imp the Dimp
Member
Yeah, that's what it looks like at the moment...Not a great situation.
Showing a statistic that actually includes the recent years would be more helpful. Also the religious attacks seem to have stayed the same or increased even in that timeframe if I read that chart correctly.
That's the thing. If even with former/current numbers integration in more or less big parts of for example France and Belgium has failed and spawned home-grown terrorists of respective backgrounds, it doesn't bode well for the future when you get even more people from similar regions in even bigger and thus even harder to integrate numbers. Gotta hope for the best though.
I worked with refugees from villages in rural Afghanistan and Sudan, and I really doubt entire families from distant countries agree on giving a placeholder date when their birth records either never existed or were destroyed. Plus, giving precise dates really helps when you're being interviewed for asylum.
This whole situation most of the middle east is currently in is a result of a giant game of geopolitics being played out in the background.
What we are seeing in Europe is the consequence of that game being played.
A) proxy wars between Saudi Arabia/Iran/Russia/USA basically.
B) USA is slipping as the dominant world power so we are currently in the midst of shifting power tectonics causing smaller and bigger quakes all over the place.
C) Slowly shifting away from oil as the major energy source.
Europe is basically a giant punching bag right now in the middle of a global power shift.
- Russians are actively trying to support disruptive movements on the far right all over Europe to soften Europe up and lure them away from the US influence.
For Germany that means, trying to get rid of a government that is in favor of sanctions on Russia as that is depleting their money reserves and endangers Putin's future.
(they did the same in the US and successfully so) - Saudi (individuals hopefully!) are sponsoring terror cells but also building of radical Mosques to export their Wahabism into Europe.
- Multiple parties (incl. Turkey, Saudis, Russia and even some European member states) use refugee "flood gates" as tool to apply more pressure and destablization.
That is where Merkel is truelly lacking. I get no signals from her that she understands what is truelly going on on this geopolitical board of chess currently. Trying to be humane to all the fallen pawns while being oblivious to the real game the King is playing in the background. she feels like a pawn of her own.
Alcotholic
Banned
This reminds me of the incident in Nice almost exactly 5 months ago.
That is a very interesting analysis, thank you!
Patrick Bateman
Member
https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/publications/europol_tesat_2016.pdf
152 attacks in 2013 to 211 in 2015. Still fewer than 2007.
Nice guy was born in Tunisia and moved to France in 2005.
One of the Brussels guys was born in Sweden.
Rest all Belgium born/raised.
Hebdo were Paris born/raised.
Not sure about the other Paris shootings.
And now maybe let's use a statistic that actually shows the amount of victims instead of including foiled and unsuccessful attacks:
http://www.datagraver.com/case/people-killed-by-terrorism-per-year-in-western-europe-1970-2015
2015 was the highest since 2004 and 1993 before that.
2016 already had Belgium with 32 dead and France with 86 massacred plus now the 12 from yesterday as well as a lot of individual, smaller scale killings.
Do you mean Hungary, the place where refugees were left rotting in the train stations, constantly under police violence and where Trump praised the construction of the wall to keep "muslim out"?
Great example.
Patrick Bateman
Member
Are we talking about attacks or victims? Because the initial comment was about attacks. Changing the subject just to prove me wrong seems a bit strange.
And about victims: I still don't see this as a "trend" of the recent years..
QuicheFontaine
Member
Yes, there would be far fewer problems if all the Schengen countries with an external border acted like Hungary. In fact, the very concept of Schengen only works if there is no porous external border. This was even noted in the original documents setting up the Schengen area.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Heads up, the 23 yo Pakistani apparently wasn't the guy.
Its these countries duty to come up with different solutions then.
Merkel never said everyone has to act the way she wants to. She wanted to start a debate on the EU level multiple times, nobody was interested. Then she acted and suddenly everyone complains. Its these countries responsibility now to work on a solution.
Letting Merkel do the work and complain afterwards is bullshit.
Should have thought about that earlier. In 2014 there would have been enough time to set up infrastructure for controlled migration, but nobody gave a fuck.
In mid 2015 it was too late, quick action was necessary and thats what Merkel did.
And afterwards she worked on a solution to control migration, even though she received little help from the main complainers.
Its a pragmatic solution. Is there anyone with a better idea?
Alx
Member
Yes we would need more data points (ie more years) to identify a trend if there is any. As of now, the graph of victims in the last years would rather indicate a very low trend of casualties, with occasional peaks due to isolated events (the Paris attacks of 2015 on their own make more than half - probably two thirds - of the total casualties of the year)
that graph is useless, the situation has completely changed since 2014
So it's OK to have people subject to violence like Hungary did?
Again, according to your own picture religious terrorist attacks stayed the same or increased. The thing that went down a lot were separatist movement terrorist attacks.
Not sure if trend is the right word, but 2015+2016 have definitely marked an increase and realistically it's probably not gonna get a lot better in the next few years.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Unless you view people dying at the border as a problem. But its brown people, so, meh...
Closing the borders is not a solution, its just a way to ignore the problem.
Refugees won't disappear because you close the border.
And what about border countries like Italy or Greece? Should they continue to save people or just let them die? Because once you save them you have to take them in.
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