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Truck plows into market in Berlin killing 12, injuring 48. Suspect shot dead in Italy

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I live on the other side of the pond (Belgium) - we don't have walls/tunnels/fances with neither France, Germany, Luxemburg or the Netherlands.

A wise man once said "You either have a country, or you don't".

Sure you don't have walls with France, Germany, etc. and maybe you prefer it that way. But the point is that it now doesn't matter what you prefer. You can't do anything about it. You can't control who comes in and out of Belgium.

To be fair, that's probably mostly because the hordes of frankish, norse and dane migrants have figured out that they're better off where they already are...

We've not been invaded for 1000 years, but it's not because no one was trying!
 
That is why it is stated they have a suspect in custody. While it's horrible if they got this wrong there is nothing wrong with reporting the facts at the time they are put out. Police did/do have a suspect, and I presume through interrogation they are now questioning whether he is the right person.
When did I say the police has done anything wrong? I was having a pop at the media.

Has the news spread his name? Afaik is Germany usually concernced with the privacy of accused.
They reported his name? Wow, I would sue for damages. That will haunt him for a long time.
Some German media's 'security sources' named him.
 
How many people died in the 2007 incidents? I suspect that looking more closely at the stats will reveal a fairly loose definition of terrorism being used in the first instance. Sabotage without intent to harm is often grouped in with these sorts of stats remember so it will not really add much to the discussion.
 

Audioboxer

Member
When did I say the police has done anything wrong? I was having a pop at the media.



Some German media's 'security sources' named him.

The media are fine to report a suspect is in custody? That is simply factual reporting. What would be wrong would be any media outlets saying the guy has been convicted or is the killer until the German police forces say so. Hence why any reputable media outlets say "suspect".

If name(s) have been released that is wrong this early. I honestly haven't seen it on any mainstream news sites. I mostly see asylum-seeker, immigrant, man from Pakistan, etc.
 

ittoryu

Member
Oh come on now. We're not talking about migrants that use high tech ships or submarines to cross the border here. And nobody will convince me that Italy or Greece does not have enough naval presence there, to not being able detect illegal crossings. Not to mention that they can ask any other country in EU for support in the matter. Which I presume EU would gladly provide.

The problem lies in the law, and the fact that right now border guards serve as a transport frigate for those illegal crossings.

Protecting sea border is not impossible task.

Your assumption is incorrect.
Italy have been asking for EU support for years; they got none.
It's impossible to protect the Italian border, given the fact that is subject to mass immigration from North Africa, Libia, etc.
I am sorry, but you need to go back and read about it, because your assumption is completely wrong.
Italy naval defence is already implemented and used in the refugees/migrants emergency; every day, especially during mild-season, people keep dying in the sea trying to reach the border of Italy. Once they are in, they get transferred to horrible detention centre, many of them already under investigation from Amnesty international.

Blaming on Italy and Greece is not only diminishing the emergency and trying to find someone to blame, but also historically and contextually wrong. Please stop spreading false assumption because "Nobody will convince you".
 

Oersted

Member
The media are fine to report a suspect is in custody? That is simply factual reporting. What would be wrong would be any media outlets saying the guy has been convicted or is the killer until the German police forces say so. Hence why any reputable media outlets say "suspect".

Some facts are not worth being reported, especially the identity of someone with no ivestigation up against.
 
It is not as black and white as letting everyone in or letting them die. You can do a lot to prevent unwanted immigration, such as having more efficient processing, not letting them walk free through the whole continent, quick deportations, not giving money, and probably more.
These things could have been done before Summer 2015, but nobody did them.
But when the refugees were already on the shores it was to late to "prevent" them


People want to help refugees, but not in unchecked and unlimited numbers, and not people from safe countries that pretend to be a refugee.

I just don't get this impression. Where is the debate? Why is nobody proposing plans/alternatives to Merkels way?
 
What would your overall solution be?

I support Merkels way.
But I think Europe has to warm up to the idea of military intervention in northern Africa, because otherwise the refugees will keep coming for years and years.

(the strawman part was about the "brown people" as you said, bringing in race where it wasnt even touched by anyone at all)

So closing the border and pretending there is no problem is not racist?
If someone solution is closing the border and ignoring the suffering I think its justified to call them out.
 

Lev

Member
Western country helping muslims is the exact difference of what ISIS wants.

Because it makes it the prime target for terrorists who don't want a peaceful solution. Target those that are willing to help until they're no longer willing to help.

Isis wants a war with the west. Any country that starts accepting muslims is bad for them.

Ah yes, how could I forget what their ultimate objective is. Thanks.
 

d00d3n

Member
The only major difficulty of securing the EU border is dealing the the human consequences of saying to desperate migrants: "No. You can stay in temporary housing at the border, but you will never get access to the job market, services and welfare in mainland EU. Neither will your children or your relatives."

Admittedly, saying that is a pretty fucked up thing to do, and some of our principled politicians have resisted the urge to do so for the longest time. Look at the success of right wing populist parties and their record polling numbers, though ... Their political representatives are already in power or will soon be in power in large parts of Europe.

People who say that closing the border "is not a solution" may be right morally and philosophically, but it is 100% what will happen in Europe. It will happen soon imo. The political decisions that make it happen will not be reversed by new wars in the middle east or climate change. Political reality has simply brought Europe to the sickening conclusion that the loss of all hope for families and their young children hoping for a better life is an acceptable bargaining chip to keep migrants away.
 

purdobol

Member
Italy naval defence is already implemented and used in the refugees/migrants emergency; every day, especially during mild-season, people keep dying in the sea trying to reach the border of Italy. Once they are in, they get transferred to horrible detention centre, many of them already under investigation from Amnesty international.

Which is direct result of decriminalizing clandestine immigration by Italy's government in the first place.
 

Audioboxer

Member
Some facts are not worth being reported, especially the identity of someone with no ivestigation up against.

So is the name definitely out there, as I said above I am failing to see it on mainstream sites. That is wrong, but noting a suspect in custody and basic identity is absolutely fine. That is what happens with every other situation in life where a suspect hunt is on. People especially in the area wish to know for safety reasons.
 

E-phonk

Banned
I think it's Farage who claimed Belgium isn't really a country.

can't really blame him for that lol

Because that's also exactly what trump said, about america:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4606273281001/?#sp=show-clips
2.50 in

And we're doing perfectly fine as a country, thank you very much ;)

Anyways - this discussion is not new.

Belgian refugees

In 1914-15 Belgian refugees arrived in France and the Netherlands in large numbers. Around 160,000 refugees found shelter in the UK, where the government kept a close watch on them. At the outset wartime photographs and paintings depicted them as desperate people in need of emergency assistance, but also stoic victims of German aggression, as in Nora Neilson Gray’s portrait of The Belgian Refugee.[2] In Britain more than 2,500 committees provided charitable relief to Belgian refugees. However, when the refugees gave no sign of going home, complaints began to surface that they made intolerable demands on host communities and were insufficiently grateful – in Kent, the Farningham War Refugee Committee criticised ‘individuals who tended to take [charitable donations] as a right and expect a higher standard of living than we felt justified in providing’.[3] The committee in Crediton, Devon complained that ‘many refugees seemed to have the impression that because they had helped England, they had the right to indefinite support from the English’. -
https://www.bl.uk/world-war-one/articles/refugees-europe-on-the-move
 

jorma

is now taking requests
We've not been invaded for 1000 years, but it's not because no one was trying!

I better clarify that i was joking. My point is that if scandinavians, the french or the germans had a catastrophe that forced them to flee their homeland, you WOULD find it hard to control your borders.
 

ittoryu

Member
Which is direct result of decriminalizing clandestine immigration by Italy's government in the first place.
Which was a measure to avoid having to build more and more prisons, because guess what? Italy is not having this huge amount of money to spend everywhere.

Again, this is about going back for a second and learn a bit more about the background and the context of some decisions that were taken. Blaming individual countries is useless.
 

Buzzati

Banned
Oh come on now. We're not talking about migrants that use high tech ships or submarines to cross the border here. And nobody will convince me that Italy or Greece does not have enough naval presence there, to not being able detect illegal crossings. Not to mention that they can ask any other country in EU for support in the matter. Which I presume EU would gladly provide.

The problem lies in the law, and the fact that right now border guards serve as a transport frigate for those illegal migrants.

Protecting sea border is not impossible task.

Oh my God. You don't have a fucking clue.
 

chadskin

Member
Reporter on N24 saying that as of 30 minutes ago police has no clue whatsoever who they're looking for in terms of the perpetrator(s).
 
My parents and my brother are in Berlin. I got a text from my dad saying they were planning on going to that market today. Think they are just going to head over to Celle early.
 
These things could have been done before Summer 2015, but nobody did them.
But when the refugees were already on the shores it was to late to "prevent" them

I just don't get this impression. Where is the debate? Why is nobody proposing plans/alternatives to Merkels way?
Yes, nobody did them. That is why people are frustrated with the current politicians, because a lot of trouble could be prevented.

I get the impression people want to help from the reports about the whole refugee crisis. Outside of some nutjobs I have yet to see anyone saying we should cut off all aid and kick out all refugees. The impression I get is people don't like being taken for fools, being taken advantage of and being frustrated with problems surrounding this crisis - that they even see in their own neighborhoods if you live near asylum centers - and let that know.

The fact that nobody is proposing solutions is the exact problem, so we see a shift towards more extreme parties that do offer a "solution", but one that is on the extreme side. That is the whole problem with this thing: the established dropped the ball and don't have answers.
 
Reporter on N24 saying that as of 30 minutes ago police has no clue whatsoever who they're looking for in terms of the perpetrator(s).

N24, though....

However, if true I wouldn't be surprised. I also don't know about surveillance on open places like christmas markets. Hopefully there's footage they can use.
 

Abraxas

Member
N24, though....

However, if true I wouldn't be surprised. I also don't know about surveillance on open places like christmas markets. Hopefully there's footage they can use.

I can see a problem with getting CCTV because of the location. As I understand this market was just in a square, so given its temporary nature may not have the best CCTV coverage. Add to that the sheer number of people, and it would become very tricky to get an ID on a suspect without sifting through hours of footage in great detail.
 

Weckum

Member
I can see a problem with getting CCTV because of the location. As I understand this market was just in a square, so given its temporary nature may not have the best CCTV coverage. Add to that the sheer number of people, and it would become very tricky to get an ID on a suspect without sifting through hours of footage in great detail.

It was possible during the Boston bombings. It takes time, but it's possible.
 
There were definitely more police officers on the Christmas market in Bonn when I went there a few hours ago.

Everyone was carrying one of those semi-automatic rifles, pretty scary.
 

Alx

Member
I can see a problem with getting CCTV because of the location. As I understand this market was just in a square, so given its temporary nature may not have the best CCTV coverage. Add to that the sheer number of people, and it would become very tricky to get an ID on a suspect without sifting through hours of footage in great detail.

Yeah, CCTV, at night in winter, with an unlit truck and Christmas lights outside... it wouldn't be that easy to get a good picture of the driver's face.
 

Oersted

Member
He can just use one of his multiple other identities he's reportedly used to claim asylum from now on.

Which reports?

So is the name definitely out there, as I said above I am failing to see it on mainstream sites. That is wrong, but noting a suspect in custody and basic identity is absolutely fine. That is what happens with every other situation in life where a suspect hunt is on. People especially in the area wish to know for safety reasons.

He is in custody, not a suspect.

His name was on Faz, Sueddeutsche, NTV and more. So please stop this nonsense.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Any reason why lately Germany has been plagued with these terrorist attacks? I don't understand why it is the case since Germany's foreign affairs policies haven't done anything to incite Muslim rage, as far as I know. It seems very odd to me that a refugee would commit senseless killings in the country that tried to be a place of refuge for him.

What ISIS Really Wants

In fact, much of what the group does looks nonsensical except in light of a sincere, carefully considered commitment to returning civilization to a seventh-century legal environment, and ultimately to bringing about the apocalypse.

The most-articulate spokesmen for that position are the Islamic State’s officials and supporters themselves. They refer derisively to “moderns.” In conversation, they insist that they will not—cannot—waver from governing precepts that were embedded in Islam by the Prophet Muhammad and his earliest followers. They often speak in codes and allusions that sound odd or old-fashioned to non-Muslims, but refer to specific traditions and texts of early Islam.

To take one example: In September, Sheikh Abu Muhammad al-Adnani, the Islamic State’s chief spokesman, called on Muslims in Western countries such as France and Canada to find an infidel and “smash his head with a rock,” poison him, run him over with a car, or “destroy his crops.” To Western ears, the biblical-sounding punishments—the stoning and crop destruction—juxtaposed strangely with his more modern-sounding call to vehicular homicide. (As if to show that he could terrorize by imagery alone, Adnani also referred to Secretary of State John Kerry as an “uncircumcised geezer.”)

But Adnani was not merely talking trash. His speech was laced with theological and legal discussion, and his exhortation to attack crops directly echoed orders from Muhammad to leave well water and crops alone—unless the armies of Islam were in a defensive position, in which case Muslims in the lands of kuffar, or infidels, should be unmerciful, and poison away.
 

Patrick S.

Banned
The only major difficulty of securing the EU border is dealing the the human consequences of saying to desperate migrants: "No. You can stay in temporary housing at the border, but you will never get access to the job market, services and welfare in mainland EU. Neither will your children or your relatives."

I'm German, my wife is Peruvian. Her parents came to visit us a few months ago and we wanted to prolong their stay. Went to immigrations, they said "no, no way. They have to leave after 90 days." I asked what they needed to do to get a permanent visa so they could stay here with our family. They told me that no, it's impossible. Only people who, unlike my pensioner step parents, come here to seek employment can stay. The lady at the immigrations office LITERALLY told me that my step parents aren't considered valuable members of society and thus had no chance to come here! No matter if they had any kind of financial means or instance. They are invaluable to the German society. She said those words verbatim.

But all those hundreds of thousands of refugees that nobody called and nobody really wants here get to stay forever and live off welfare, receive 400 Euro plus 190 Euro for each of their children plus rent plus health insurance and fail to integrate? Why? I'm all for giving them shelter while there's a war going on in their country, but once the dust has settled in Syria or wherever please go back. It's like me taking in a stranger during a thunderstorm. Once the storm is over, please leave. I'm giving you a roof for the night because it's dangerous outside. Once the danger has passed, please be on your way.
 

Nivash

Member
Yes, nobody did them. That is why people are frustrated with the current politicians, because a lot of trouble could be prevented.

I get the impression people want to help from the reports about the whole refugee crisis. Outside of some nutjobs I have yet to see anyone saying we should cut off all aid and kick out all refugees. The impression I get is people don't like being taken for fools, being taken advantage of and being frustrated with problems surrounding this crisis - that they even see in their own neighborhoods if you live near asylum centers - and let that know.

The fact that nobody is proposing solutions is the exact problem, so we see a shift towards more extreme parties that do offer a "solution", but one that is on the extreme side. That is the whole problem with this thing: the established dropped the ball and don't have answers.

I'm increasingly getting the impression that people like the idea of helping, but not the consequences. That's why even mainstream people support refugees in principle but then do a 180 and lose their minds if a refugee center opens in their neighbourhood or if refugee children start attending their schools.

It's also a good explanation of why the current mess called the European refugee "system" is the way it is. If I recall correctly, the two of us agree that the only sensible solution is for the EU to implement quotas and then bring people in from the refugee campus after processing is done there. It's the only way to respect the human right to asylum and preserve the open internal EU borders while avoiding uneven distribution.

My opinion as to why this didn't happen is that people, on some level, understand that this will lead to long term immigration of large numbers of refugees, while they prefer the phantasy that it could somehow, eventually go away if we just ignore it. Or, more callously, that the far right will eventually "solve" it for us if it doesn't.

Sidetracking aside though, it's...disturbing to say the least that the guy wasn't the actual perpetrator. Guess we'll have to wait for the mere info, sounds like chaos in Berlin right now for the Polizei.
 
I'm German, my wife is Peruvian. Her parents came to visit us a few months ago and we wanted to prolong their stay. Went to immigrations, they said "no, no way. They have to leave after 90 days." I asked what they needed to do to get a permanent visa so they could stay here with our family. They told me that no, it's impossible. Only people who, unlike my pensioner step parents, come here to seek employment can stay. The lady at the immigrations office LITERALLY told me that my step parents aren't considered valuable members of society and thus had no chance to come here! No matter if they had any kind of financial means or instance. They are invaluable to the German society. She said those words verbatim.

But all those hundreds of thousands of refugees that nobody called and nobody really wants here get to stay forever and live off welfare, receive 400 Euro plus 190 Euro for each of their children plus rent plus health insurance and fail to integrate? Why? I'm all for giving them shelter while there's a war going on in their country, but once the dust has settled in Syria or wherever please go back. It's like me taking in a stranger during a thunderstorm. Once the storm is over, please leave. I'm giving you a roof for the night because it's dangerous outside. Once the danger has passed, please be on your way.
This post makes my head spin.
 

Siegcram

Member
I'm German, my wife is Peruvian. Her parents came to visit us a few months ago and we wanted to prolong their stay. Went to immigrations, they said "no, no way. They have to leave after 90 days." I asked what they needed to do to get a permanent visa so they could stay here with our family. They told me that no, it's impossible. Only people who, unlike my pensioner step parents, come here to seek employment can stay. The lady at the immigrations office LITERALLY told me that my step parents aren't considered valuable members of society and thus had no chance to come here! No matter if they had any kind of financial means or instance. They are invaluable to the German society. She said those words verbatim.

But all those hundreds of thousands of refugees that nobody called and nobody really wants here get to stay forever and live off welfare, receive 400 Euro plus 190 Euro for each of their children plus rent plus health insurance and fail to integrate? Why? I'm all for giving them shelter while there's a war going on in their country, but once the dust has settled in Syria or wherever please go back. It's like me taking in a stranger during a thunderstorm. Once the storm is over, please leave. I'm giving you a roof for the night because it's dangerous outside. Once the danger has passed, please be on your way.
It's almost like immigration and fleeing an active warzone are two totally different things. Amazing display of empathy btw.
 
I'm German, my wife is Peruvian. Her parents came to visit us a few months ago and we wanted to prolong their stay. Went to immigrations, they said "no, no way. They have to leave after 90 days." I asked what they needed to do to get a permanent visa so they could stay here with our family. They told me that no, it's impossible. Only people who, unlike my pensioner step parents, come here to seek employment can stay. The lady at the immigrations office LITERALLY told me that my step parents aren't considered valuable members of society and thus had no chance to come here! No matter if they had any kind of financial means or instance. They are invaluable to the German society. She said those words verbatim.

But all those hundreds of thousands of refugees that nobody called and nobody really wants here get to stay forever and live off welfare, receive 400 Euro plus 190 Euro for each of their children plus rent plus health insurance and fail to integrate? Why? I'm all for giving them shelter while there's a war going on in their country, but once the dust has settled in Syria or wherever please go back. It's like me taking in a stranger during a thunderstorm. Once the storm is over, please leave. I'm giving you a roof for the night because it's dangerous outside. Once the danger has passed, please be on your way.

Completely understand. My wife is also a non-EU immigrant. It's funny to be repeatedly called racist because you think borders should be properly enforced (I just ignore posts with hysterical reference to "oh no, brown people" now, it's become such a ridiculous meme). I find that most people who have to deal with the immigration system - I mean, really deal with it - are the most chagrinned at having people simply waved through with no screening.
 

Patrick S.

Banned
It's almost like immigration and fleeing an active warzone are two totally different things. Amazing display of empathy btw.

More empathy than a woman at immigrations telling me my wife's family members are considered of no worth to German society.

Edit: also, it does become the same the moment the refugees get to stay forever even though the war in their has ended. Then it's immigration, because there isn't a war anymore. I consider our duty to them fulfilled then.
 

Dalibor68

Banned
can't tell if you're joking or not, but yes, apprehending people on the basis of their skin color is definitely a "real problem"
Which we don't have any evidence if that happened, but go ahead and keep spinning conspiracy theories. Or alternatively wait for the DNA test and a police statement before throwing around race strawmen.
 

Oersted

Member
But all those hundreds of thousands of refugees that nobody called and nobody really wants here get to stay forever and live off welfare, receive 400 Euro plus 190 Euro for each of their children plus rent plus health insurance and fail to integrate?

They get up to 359 €. First months 180. Kids around 84 Euro. No health insurance.
 
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