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It just seems like there's so rarely that much attention to the little things that can really make a game shine.

Framerate problems can be present as long as they're not too severe.
Animation should just get the "idea of movement" across, it doesn't need to be very smooth or natural.
No need to innovate with the HUD or camera scheme. Whatever came before is fine.
As long as there aren't any game-killing bugs, it's okay to ship with a few problems.

It seems like all the major Western titles of this generation share at least some of these, whereas the big-budget Japan projects have put a bit more work into getting games to work perfectly. Metroid Prime is one of the few US projects that seemed to have a great deal of extra work put into it (the HUD, the locked 60 FPS, etc).

I think the mentality is to get the game into an "acceptable" state and then throw it out the door.....because most consumers don't really give a shit. For all the complaints and terrible reviews you see of the bad PC ports on PS2 (like Max Payne)....people still seem to be buying and enjoying those games. Ubisoft didn't even give a shit that some of the footage in the Rainbow Six 3 commercial showed a ugly framerate drop.

It obviously can be an issue with both East and West, though it just seems particularly nasty over here.

 

[belgurdo]

Don't a lot of Japanese games get extra bugfixing when they're shipped to the US?

 

[Azih]

Aside from the HUD issue I am going to agree. I'm always shocked by the tiny little things that Japanese games do that are completely unknown in Western games. For example if Link in the 3D Zelda games stops in the middle of going up or down stairs and you look at the legs, then one of the legs is on the top step and one of the legs is on the bottom step. In Western games they're always in the stock standing still pose with half of the body floating in mid air.


This may just be an issue with action games though. Some games like the Thief series expend a huge amount of energy in polish.

 

[Kiriku]

Couldn't this be explained partly through the frequency of multi-platform titles here in the west? I feel that Japanese titles are usually developed for one system, and then sometimes ported after a rather long time.

 

[Bob White]

True AND false.

Example. Naughty Dog does. Activision doesn't.

 

[teiresias]

I was about to mention Naughty Dog as well, but I guess I'll add insomniac to that too. The Jak and Ratchet series all seem to have a ton of polish, and one of the things I really like about the games is the animation.

 

[Kon Tiki]

True. Catwoman is proof. The game comes from the biggest western developer, based on a hot licence, yet it utter shit.

 

[Jesiatha]

Good point. I don't think many consoles are released in Poland.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

False. Or at least, not anymore than Japanese developers. If you go to Japan and look through the shops and even play a lot of the stuff that never makes it here, you'll find that their games are just as 'unpolished' as Western ones...it's just that you don't see those leave Japan.

 

[FitzOfRage]

True. Catwoman is proof. The game comes from the biggest western developer, based on a hot licence, yet it utter shit.

Well it's not like Konami hasn't put out licensed shit. I don't know if that proves anything.

I think the matter where a company is located sometimes they cut corners, rush out mediocre games that could have been good, and publish utter shit.

 

[Mejilan]

I'm going with false also. I'm sure there are loads of unpolished turds-in-a-case in Japan that never even get considered for release here in the West, whereas, like out Japanese brethren with their Eastern games, we see the full spectrum of Western games here.

In other words, Western games get all of Western games and some (of the more polished) Japanese games. Whereas Japanese gamers get the mirror of that deal, all the Japanese stuff, and some of the presumably classier Western games.

 

[etiolate]

I think this problem grows from PC gaming being more popular here and the "patch" mentality. Games are published when they are playable, instead of actually finished or polished.

 

[Littleberu]

You'll only see big japanese release over here, that's why they seem more polished than our average western game.

 

[Kobun Heat]

The existence of shitty games in Japan doesn't mean that the idea that Japanese developers care more about polish than Western devs do is automatically false, though.

 

[border]

I'm going with false also. I'm sure there are loads of unpolished turds-in-a-case in Japan that never even get considered for release here in the West, whereas, like out Japanese brethren with their Eastern games, we see the full spectrum of Western games here.

That's more or less why I tried to focus on the popular, big-budget releases. Both markets are going to have their fair share of totally thoughtless shovelware.

If you look at the real high-tier popular games, you will still find these issues. GTA has framerate drops and a ton of bugs. Halo can have framerate problems and just has polish issues in the sense that it feels very rushed. Tony Hawk has decent enough animation but still winds up as a framerate roller-coaster. KOTOR has framerate problems and extended load times.

Compare that to something like Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry or Metal Gear Solid 2. All of them are more or less locked at the same framerate and (for their time) had a lot more work put into animation than most of their Western peers. The Sony platformers and Metroid Prime are the only big Western titles I can think that have a similar level of effort.

 

[FitzOfRage]

The existence of shitty games in Japan doesn't mean that the idea that Japanese developers care more about polish than Western devs do is automatically false, though.

Yeah, but then that goes both ways.

 

[nitewulf]

i have always noticed europen games to be more artsy, polished and given greater attention to detail in general than american games.
im mostly talking about developers of flashback, out of this world, rayman etc.

 

[Teknopathetic]

False.

 

[Redbeard]

True. It seems that the western tendency is to focus on the big picture, so to speak; or to "get the idea across" as you say.

That said, I think Japanese developers are not concerned enough with the big picture, relying too much on established gameplay and conventions.

Take something like Morrowind, which suffers from every problem you mentioned (and then some) but, because of it's ambitous design, manages to become something which (for a lot of people) rises above those problems. I don't think you'd ever see a game like that come out of Japan.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

True AND false.

Example. Naughty Dog does. Activision doesn't.

Yes, you're absolutely right BW. It's completely dependent upon the developer. Now border the question could be asked whether or not more polish is apparent in eastern devs software vs. western developers, that would be a much more relevant question or observation.

 

[Zenny]

False. Or at least, not anymore than Japanese developers. If you go to Japan and look through the shops and even play a lot of the stuff that never makes it here, you'll find that their games are just as 'unpolished' as Western ones...it's just that you don't see those leave Japan.

IAWTP

 

[Korranator]

False. Bunch of crap.

 

[Pimpbaa]

I like western games more than japaneses ones, but I say true. Mainly because of the amount of bugs so prevalent in western games. I dunno if it's because they are a lot of former pc programmers with a patch it later attitude or if the publishers are forcing the games out before they are done. All I know is that it's gotta stop.

 

[nitewulf]

False. Bunch of crap.

damn you, i had a picture ready and everything!

 

[Crazymoogle]

Here's another loaded general observation for you:

I think that the best japanese games show more polish on average than north american/european titles do.

[Edit: basically already said, that's fast posts or slow response time on my part for you]

Redbeard's assertion regarding Morrowind is likely true, but I have to admit Morrowind could use a lot more work. Saying a game is great but unfinished seems to lead to a release anyways over here, where over in Japan might be more likely to lead to delays or cancellation.

Anyhow, it's not like we have all sorts of hard data to back up any of this. Just thoughts, really...

 

[Dave Long]

It's absolutely true. Western publishers/developers are built around the idea of shipping as many games as they can with hopefully one or two big hits among them. They never take the time to polish a game to a fine sheen before release except in a very few cases. VERY few. PC games especially are notorious for this but console games are similar.

Things like collision detection, solid control that never lets you down, framerates, menus, the whole package... it's all just kinda "there" in most Western games. When you put them directly next to a Japanese game, often even a mediocre one, the one thing that clearly stands out is that Eastern games feel like they're "finished" while the Western game feels somewhat underdone.

The only real explanation for it, IMO, is that the bottom line is much more important than the game itself here in the West. It's all about the money and very often not about the art. Games in the West are just "products" whereas there's still a bit of the artist in many Japanese publishers/developers.

 

[Rhindle]

I find the reverse to be true.

Japanese games lately have generally suffered from a lack of attention to consistent playability. You get a few smooth, enjoyable levels, and then some ill conceived, poorly executed level that is either unnecessarily frustrating or just a crushing bore, which grinds the game to a halt. I'm generalizing obviously, but I have a large and growing stack of unfinished Japanese games to provide my point.

The occasional technical framerate issue or animation quirk doesn't bother me as much as a lack of attention to ensuring consistent playability.

 

[border]

You get a few smooth, enjoyable levels, and then some ill conceived, poorly executed level that is either unnecessarily frustrating or just a crushing bore, which grinds the game to a halt. I'm generalizing obviously, but I have a large and growing stack of unfinished Japanese games to provide my point..

Well, that is more a gameplay or design problem than having difficulty with polish. But out of curiousity, which games did you feel had this probelm?

Recently I've been starting to easily "give up" on pretty much any game that doesn't stay great the whole way through.

 

[Necroscope]

IAWTP. I think NA developers are overly ambitious in scope. They always try to make the game "bigger" and "more" in some ways. On the other hand, Japanese will have smaller scope and polish the hell of out it. Just compare the level of polishness in open world games like GTA to levelized games like MGS and you will see how different are the design pholisophy between the two camps. Furthermore, Japanese's console gaming root is arguable build on platformers since the Famicom days thus good character control, locomotion, responsiveness are must have. NA developers have a stronger root from PC games where control is usually not that good due to the input device like keyboard and customizable control settings that try to suit everyone.

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

Somewhat true. Western devs don't seem to care AS MUCH about polish. I mean, if you pit the best JPN games versus the best US games, which ones are usually more refined?

 

[fennec fox]

Most shitty Western games and shitty Japanese games both have very little polish. Most good Western games and good Japanese games do.

Back in the SNES days this was obviously untrue on the console end of gaming, but nowadays I don't think the argument is there.

 

[Azih]

I think the question really is why is there a lack of polish in GTA? GTA III fine, it wasn't a big name game when it was being developed, by why is GTA:VC not insanely polished? It had enough pull that it didn't need to be rushed and hey it's Rockstar's flagship game.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Any company with a strict deadlines/budget is not going to give a toss about 'polish' as long as the fundamentals are there.

LOL. I just remembered when the xbox naysayers were saying that the HD was going to be used mainly for patches for games.....

 

[SolidSnakex]

I think the question really is why is there a lack of polish in GTA? GTA III fine, it wasn't a big name game when it was being developed, by why is GTA:VC not insanely polished? It had enough pull that it didn't need to be rushed.

It was sorta rushed, Rockstar even admitted it. They said they had to go right in to VC after completing GTA3 along with having to do alot of research on everything for VC. SA should be very polished though as they've had 2 years to work on it.

 

[Azih]

so will SA be more stable and have a rock solid framerate?

 

[drohne]

western developers certainly don't care as much about frame rate. part of this can probably be chalked up to multiplatform development, pc ports, and middleware. part of it is probably because western games this gen are often more ambitious and less conventional than their japanese counterparts.

 

[SolidSnakex]

so will SA be more stable and have a rock solid framerate?

They said they're making sure this one is more polished than the previous games, so it'll definetly have a more stable framerate. Will it be completely stable? We'll have to wait for the release to find out.

 

[Socreges]

Overall, I would say Western developed games are not as pristine. Probably a combination of things. Such as a lack of experience and a difference in priority.

 

[Fjord]

You know Japan releases alot of very unpolished games too.

 

[cvxfreak]

A lot of western titles definitely lack polish; at other times they have A LOT of polish.

 

[Yusaku]

Well, as long as we're making generalities...

Western games tend to be much more ambitious and larger in scope. It's pretty hard bugtesting huge games like GTA, but I'm sure Square has testing the latest derivative Final Fantasy game down to a science.

And it's funny you mention Metroid Prime, have we already forgotten the huge problem it had with locking-up?

 

[Mashing]

Metroid Prime is one of the most polished games this generation (even if they are part of Nintendo, Retro was the primary developer... unless you want to argue that it was NCL that insisted on polishing--something I don't think happened in this case) so it's not all bad.

Blizzard & Bioware games are also very polished... your argument isn't holding much water I'm afraid.

 

[Littleberu]

Metroid Prime is one of the most polished games this generation (if if they are part of Nintendo, Retro was the primary developer... unless you want to argue that it as NCL that insisted on polishing--something I don't think happened in this case) so it's not all bad.

Blizzard & Bioware games are also very polished... you're arguement isn't holding much water I'm afraid.

Other games like Half Life, Twisted Metal Black/War of the Monsters, Downhill Domination, Rogue Leader, are also very polished.

 

[border]

Bioware? Didn't KOTOR ship with a sometimes-stuttering framerate and excessive load times? I only played the PC version which fixed those problems, but apparently the game wasn't that polished to start with.

Developers working mainly in 2D or 2D gameplay (Blizzard, Bioware) will of course be able to polish that stuff better since it's just not as complex as 3D.

I'm not aware of a "huge" locking-up problem on Metroid Prime, though I know it did freeze for some people. It froze once on me, though I would say that at least in terms of presentation it is one of the most polished titles around.

 

[Littleberu]

I'm not aware of a "huge" locking-up problem on Metroid Prime, though I know it did freeze for some people. It froze once on me, though I would say that at least in terms of presentation it is one of the most polished titles around.

Hey, you know Japanese games have bugs too?

 

[Suerte]

You'll only see big japanese release over here, that's why they seem more polished than our average western game.

IAWTP

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Maybe I don't just play "big" releases primarily, but I sure as hell have played a lot of Sega, Capcom and Nintendo games this gen that didn't feel finished. Or particularly well-made. If framerate is going to be the barometer for things, maybe, I'm not sure. Doesn't stop them from being some of my favorite developers, but damn.

 

[Xellos]

western developers certainly don't care as much about frame rate. part of this can probably be chalked up to multiplatform development, pc ports, and middleware. part of it is probably because western games this gen are often more ambitious and less conventional than their japanese counterparts.

IAWTP.

 

[ge-man]

Western games are difinately suffering from over ambitiousness. But as others have pointed out, we should not be praising the big Japanese games because they are slickly produced. There needs to be a compromise between engaging gameplay and technical brilliance.

 

[Xellos]

Just want to add that I think ambitious game design is a good thing. Morrowind is buggy as hell, and it froze on me over a dozen times, but hey think of all the cool stuff the game allows for. GTA may have some funny animations, pop-up, and some slowdown, but there's more creativity and freedom in that series than almost any other. I wouldn't have enjoyed this gen nearly as much without these games.