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[teh_pwn]

False. Just because EA sucks balls to meet liscense deadlines, doesn't mean all western developers do.

Warcraft III is extremely polished. Then there's Far Cry (well not video), Call of Duty, Doom III, Half Life 2 (probably), and stuff. Can't think of many console games right now...

 

[ChumsGum]

[edit]True or False: Electronic Arts don't care about polish[/edit]

FIXED

 

[FortNinety]

I think this problem grows from PC gaming being more popular here and the "patch" mentality. Games are published when they are playable, instead of actually finished or polished.

I agree with the patch affect.

 

[Kai Dracon]

True and false. I think historically, there's been less polish and less ability to even create polish in the West. For example, ability at 3D character animation, etc, has seemed very poor in Western game developers UP TO A POINT. Then companies like Naughty Dog began hiring actual experts in animation (including people who've worked on 3D animation for Disney). However, I think on the whole there is still less of an emphasis on many kinds of polish in the West, just as the Japanese have less of an emphasis on what people are calling "ambiguous" and open-ended game design.

 

[Prine]

False. Just look at Rare.

Say what you like about Grabbed by the Ghoulies, but its easily of one the most polished games ive played this gen.

 

[teh_pwn]

"I agree with the patch affect."

I don't agree with the patch effect.

Games like warcraft III came out polished, but the races were not entirely balanced. Patches allowed that to be fixed.

Then you have consoles games, like Metroid Prime, that lock up sometimes (had it happen to me twice). No patch possible, yet patching is bad somehow? Er?

 

[AlphaSnake]

Western developers have never cared about the Polish. Poor Polaks.

 

[Yusaku]

I think most people are confusing polish with production values.

 

[CrimsonSkies]

It seems like there are more artists and developers working on a big game in Japan than their Western Counterparts.

I'm sure if you compare the development staff of a game like Virtua Fighter 4 to that of Mortal Kombat Deception. There's going to be difference in the amount of folks on each project. Although Deception will probably outsell VF4 since it's multiplatform.

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

When I think of polish in a game like Metroid Prime, I think of the rain splashing on her arm cannon. Water rolling off her visor or rain drops onher visor. When in morph ball mode, the ball reacts realisticly to the enviroment. Another one is the steam that blurrs your vision, or temporay blindness that is caused by killing certain creatures when you kill them. Locked framerate, gets a nod to.

One of the even more cooler aspects is the ability to see her eyes in a reflection on the visor after a large explosion.

You can tell Retro went all out to make you feel you were the main character.

 

[SA-X]

True and false. There are plenty of western games that are just as polished as the best eastern games.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

There are plenty of western games that are just as polished as the best eastern games.

PC devs.? Yes. Console developers? No. SA-X you've got to produce a console only specific list to back up those claims.

 

[shpankey]

Complete myth...

Bungie (unbelievable balance and polish in their games - especially the Myth series)
Blizzard oh my, most polish from ANY developer in the world EVER - leaves any Eastern dev in the dust
Rare - next best next to above
Electronic Arts - yes... look at Madden, it is near perfection now

 

[SolidSnakex]

"Rare - next best next to above"

Maybe if you didn't play any of their N64 games. They're awesome, but polish isn't one of their keys.

 

[border]

Rare's N64 games were riddled with random and extreme framerate dropouts....I dunno about their efforts this generation, though.

 

[aoi tsuki]

I think most people are confusing polish with production values.

Care to define the difference? ^_^

Metroid Prime is a bad example in my eyes, because it's not like Nintendo just gave Retro a game concept and told them to run with it. They (Miyamoto mainly) were there pushing the team every step of the way. Nintendo wouldn't let anyone fuck up one of their franchises, proven (which Retro wasn't) or not, especially one poised for a comeback as Metroid was.

In some ways, Silicon Knights was in a similar boat with Eternal Darkness. i really wish i could get Denis Dyack drunk so he'd rant about what really happened at SK during development of ED, MGS:TT, and the abrupt breakup between them and Nintendo.

 

[SA-X]

PC devs.? Yes. Console developers? No. SA-X you've got to produce a console only specific list to back up those claims.

The subject heading is 'True or False: Western Developers don't care about polish' NOT 'True or False: Console Western Developers don't care about polish'.

 

[Grifter]

"I agree with the patch affect."

I don't agree with the patch effect.

Games like warcraft III came out polished, but the races were not entirely balanced. Patches allowed that to be fixed.

Then you have consoles games, like Metroid Prime, that lock up sometimes (had it happen to me twice). No patch possible, yet patching is bad somehow? Er?

That's an unfair call on War3. You'd have to compare balance in competitive games, and no matter who releases those, they usually start broken before revisions and upgrades.

As to the topic, I'd say it's clearly true.

 

[Ristamar]

I can't speak for WCIII, but Diablo II was far from polished, that's for damn sure.

 

[Tellaerin]

I'd call it 'attention to detail' myself, and I'd say that Japanese developers, generally speaking, tend to care about it more than their Western counterparts.

 

[G4life98]

false, the biggest problem with western devs are wester publishers that in general seem to have a quicker trigger finger on pushing the release of games that arent a hundred percent ready.

 

[JasoNsider]

True.

I actually wrote about this topic in Game Design: A Study. Basically Western developers often concentrate on a macro scope with less micro details while Eastern philosophy seems to revolve around Micro scope with many micro details and areas of "polish."

However, I was also quick to point out the potential "hybrid" or "fusion" titles. Metroid Prime is probably the absolute best example of a hybrid title. With both Eastern and Western design philosophies rolled up into one package, it left a lot of people impressed. It is one of the only examples of this really. It was probably made possible by having Eastern influence on a very Western crowd. The end product had things Miyamoto and Nintendo's crew normally focus on (tight control, great level design, and the small details to give the right "feelings") and at the same time had the western influence in the art and storytelling department.

 

[Flatbread]

Should be noted that online games seem to need more patches, bug fixes in there multiplayer games in the past. Most online games have come from western developers when considering all the pc games.

PC games have a smaller budget in general, polish of a game is ussually tied to the budget in my experience.

I think most single player games have great polish, but it depends on all the things you consider which makes up a great polished game.

A list would be nice for reference, like bugs that crash or prevent the game from being completed or played the proper way. I dont consider frame rate all that significant in a game like KOTOR, as long as its not atrocious and doesnt affect gameplay, I really dont mind it.

What are some other things that you consider to be important for a polished game?

 

[dark10x]

Somewhat true...

I mean, when you load up a game like Ridge Racer V, you immediately get a face full of polish. Every ounce of that game is polished, from the menu transitions to the racing itself. That's the kind of polish I adore, and it just isn't as common from Western developers.

The PC is THE worst offender, though. Your typical PC game lacks every bit of that polish that I love. Far Cry was a big game this year, but the presentation was shit. I've always referred to bad animation as "PC animation", and I think it should be pretty obvious why...

Of course, money is part of the problem...but that doesn't change the fact.

Take a look at XBOX. A lot of incredible looking games that run at 60 fps are Japanese. The best looking Western games typically can't even hold 30 fps.

 

[DopeyFish]

False. Western publishers is another story.

 

[Littleberu]

Rare's N64 games were riddled with random and extreme framerate dropouts....I dunno about their efforts this generation, though.

You seem to think only Western developped games have framedrop.

What about Dynasty Warriors? Zone of the Enders? Kingdom Hearts? Chrono Cross? Hell, most of the PSX Japanese action games had framedrop/aliaising problems.

 

[Buffy4ever]

You seem to think only Western developped games have framedrop.

What about Dynasty Warriors? Zone of the Enders? Kingdom Hearts? Chrono Cross? Hell, most of the PSX Japanese action games had framedrop/aliaising problems.

very true, and thogh I Love Sega games, Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure Dx were buggy, I think it depenmds onthe game and if t is rushed out then if it is Eastern or western. One reason Nintendo games have a high coat of Polish is they usually take thier time when creating a game, Even Metriod Prime took awhile, wasn't it going to be a launch title at one time?

 

[Kobun Heat]

False. Western publishers is another story.

I think that's a very important distinction to make, yes. Developers the world over would probably love to be able to sit back and screw with a game until it's perfect. But publishers want it NOW NOW NOW.

 

[dark10x]

What about Dynasty Warriors? Zone of the Enders? Kingdom Hearts? Chrono Cross? Hell, most of the PSX Japanese action games had framedrop/aliaising problems

I exclude PSX from this dicussion as I don't really feel that ANY PSX games were very polished (outside of some 2D games) due to the technology.

ZOE and Dynaasty Warriors (the PS2 games) run at 60 fps 99% of the time. Image quality isn't really a big part of polish here. Ridge Racer V is one of the most polished games I've ever played, and that has rather poor image quality.

 

[Littleberu]

ZOE and Dynaasty Warriors (the PS2 games) run at 60 fps 99% of the time. Image quality isn't really a big part of polish here. Ridge Racer V is one of the most polished games I've ever played, and that has rather poor image quality.

ZOE2 doesn't run 60 FPS 99% of the time, same thing for DW4.

 

[Gattsu25]

ZOE2 doesn't run 60 FPS 99% of the time, same thing for DW4.

Um....he never mentioned part 2, you know. Besides...ZoE2 has clear reasons for its less stable frame rate (hint: its visuals that kick the shit out of most games on consoles)

 

[Littleberu]

Um....he never mentioned part 2, you know. Besides...ZoE2 has clear reasons for its less stable frame rate (hint: its visuals that kick the shit out of most games on consoles)

Yeah I know, but it's just another game anyway. There isn't a place better than another for game developpement. You can't just say all Western developpers don't polish their games because some company don't.

 

[dark10x]

Yeah I know, but it's just another game anyway. There isn't a place better than another for game developpement. You can't just say all Western developpers don't polish their games because some company don't.

Nobody is saying that ALL Western developers don't polish their games...

I believe that the MAJORITY of Western publishers/developers don't polish their games up to Japanese standards...not all. There are some big exceptions to that.

Oh, and ZOE2 was never mentioned (as noted above).

 

[jarrod]

I was about to mention Naughty Dog as well, but I guess I'll add insomniac to that too. The Jak and Ratchet series all seem to have a ton of polish, and one of the things I really like about the games is the animation.

Don't Rare as well. They're like three of a kind.

 

[Azih]

Well I think the big thing is that there's a clear difference between how Japanese games 'feel' and how Western games 'feel'. Is better animation and generally more stable framerate the reason for this?

 

[Alex]

"Say what you like about Grabbed by the Ghoulies"

It's very easily one of the worst games ever made. I think at least some sort of playability should count as polish as well.

 

[akascream]

I think its pretty safe to say that, as a whole, western games have less polish. But there are companies where this simply doesn't apply. Blizzard, ID, Ubisoft, ect.

At the same time, I think it's safe to say that, as a whole, eastern games have less depth.

 

[Gattsu25]

I think its pretty safe to say that, as a whole, western games have less polish. But there are companies where this simply doesn't apply. Blizzard, ID, Ubisoft, ect.

At the same time, I think it's safe to say that, as a whole, eastern games have less depth.

Couldn't have said it better, myself. This post sums up the whole thread! Realy! Thread closed!

 

[DopeyFish]

how so? There is a lot more games that come out of japan, a lot more bad games. A lot more unpolished. If japanese games are all super polished why aren't they the ones taking home the yearly accolades any more? I'd say, without a second thought, Western developers, at this point, totally mutilate japanese developers in terms of polish, innovation, and entertainment. Sure... 10 years ago it was different, but welcome to now.

 

[Lazy8s]

SEGA's Visual Concepts games are nicely polished graphically.

 

[dark10x]

how so? There is a lot more games that come out of japan, a lot more bad games. A lot more unpolished. If japanese games are all super polished why aren't they the ones taking home the yearly accolades any more? I'd say, without a second thought, Western developers, at this point, totally mutilate japanese developers in terms of polish, innovation, and entertainment. Sure... 10 years ago it was different, but welcome to now.

Stop, think about it.

Lack of polish does not necessarily mean a game sucks. Deus Ex, for example, is EXTREMELY unpolished. It ran like shit when it was released, has awful animation and effects, and generally looks pretty poor. It is a technical piece of shit. However, the game itself is absolutely FANTASTIC. KOTOR is another example. The game runs poorly, animates poorly, is segmented as hell, and generally is just loaded with all kinds of technical problems. Does that mean the game sucks? I could go on and on, but the fact of the matter is, many great games lack polish.

I dislike that fact, but it can't be changed.

Even a lot of totally shit Japanese titles are still far more polished than your average Western title.

This whole argument has nothing to do with gameplay.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

are you talking about platforms or pc games? I mean you cant really compare PC vs console thats bs, of course console games are going to be far more polished it runs on one console it runs on all of them EXACTLY the same. PC's have to contend with different configurations, operating systems, other installed programs, your driver versions , hardware drivers, etc etc get the point? You cant really ever "finish" a pc game since the platforms and even api's get updated so often on top of the fact that there are so many different ones. I mean if we all listed our pc rigs right now there would be tons of different configurations for a game to support. On the console side of things thats subjective, is madden really buggy and unpolished? It depends on the dev studio ya know. I've yet to have a buggy experience with my warcraft3 games from blizzard they are known for having well polished games. And even then check their patches notes they have to fix some small bug with a certain type of vid card , or driver version.

 

[JasoNsider]

I agree with dark's last comments there.

And yes, you can compare PC games with console ones. Just because the PC market is flooded with practically exclusively Western games doesn't mean you have to exclude it from comparisons. Designing a game is about choices and sometimes restraint. Western developers, for the most part, try to create a huge scope for either a gameplay system or in-game universe. The eastern philosophies often have a focused scope where they set out to do only a handful of things really well.

There are a couple of rules you have to follow for this observation I've found, though:

1) You cannot compare games across different genres. That is, you have to compare Command and Conquer to Pikmin and not to Zelda.

2) The only fair way to accurately judge game philosophy trends is to use the good examples from each side. A bad game is a bad game, regardless of which side of the tracks it lies on. Using the best examples from either camp is the best/only way to judge what kind of choices the artists and designers use to distinguish their materials.

3) There are exceptions to the rule. Some designers purposely set out to make games unlike their peers (within their camp.)

 

[dark10x]

PCs should be included...

I have Ys VI for the PC and while it certainly isn't a technical powerhouse, it looks beautiful, animates well, is ultra polished, and runs at a perfect 60 fps with AA and AF cranked. Like I said, it isn't pushing any limits...but the whole package is so solid that you can't help but be impressed.

 

[jarrod]

SEGA's Visual Concepts games are nicely polished graphically.

Sega's STI team was doing pretty well also in the mid 1990s (Comix Zone, The Ooze, Garfield). Not to mention the Virgin/Shiny guys around that time (Aladdin, Earthworm Jim 1-2, Cool Spot).

 

[teh_pwn]

"are you talking about platforms or pc games? I mean you cant really compare PC vs console thats bs, of course console games are going to be far more polished it runs on one console it runs on all of them EXACTLY the same."

Which again shows how incredibly polished Warcraft III is. You can run it on a Geforce 2 and a P4 2.0A, or a P4 3.0C and 9800 Pro and it generally runs the same. Of course the later runs at a higher fps, but the game has all the same features and same shine to it. Hell, it even works for Mac.

 

[Kwokuen]

Having recently played version 1.00 of Warcraft at a LAN party recently, I'm gonna have to say that the game was pretty unpolished when it first shipped. From a technical standpoint, yes, it looked and ran fine, but there's a ton of stuff that Blizzard added in later patches that most users would normally overlook in the midst of battle. The first of these problems that I noticed was item queuing. Say I wanted to research an upgrade (i.e. Web, Cannibalize, etc.) in a Crypt before building some fiends or ghouls. Not possible in the version 1.00. Tying multiple buildings to a hotkey (Such as 1, 2, 3, etc.) was also not a possibility. Users were limited to one building at a time if they were to hotkey them. Players would also get disconnected often before ladder games would even start. Their reward? A loss on their record. Not a huge deal, but still annoying nonetheless. Other problems included cancellation glitches (That allowed players to get twice the gold upon cancelling certain buildings), and lots of crashing when certain "events" were triggered.

Although balance between races is subjective in most strategy games, most Warcraft players will admit that the game was privy to tons of cheeseball tactics in multiplayer, even after beta testing. Orc Towering was a huge problem before Blizzard finally remedied the problem in later patches(Using heavy armor for the structures instead of siege). There was also a point where players were almost entirely dependent on casters (rendering all other units uselss). Of course, Blizzard eventually fixed this with the "unarmored" type armor class.

Anyways, this is just some ranting from a crazed Warcraft fan. Its still a great game, but the micro-intensive situations during multiplayer can cause aneurysms for some people. All the more reason for you people to go buy Kohan.

 

[Ghost]

You'll only see big japanese release over here, that's why they seem more polished than our average western game.

ding ding ding, winner!

These "western devs are so..." threads are so redundant, GO BACK TO THE NINETIES WHEN IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN TRUE!

 

[dark10x]

ding ding ding, winner!

These "western devs are so..." threads are so redundant, GO BACK TO THE NINETIES WHEN IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN TRUE!

It is still true, though. Just LOOK at the games...

There is a reason why XBOX has the lowest number of 60 fps titles...

 

[MightyHedgehog]

But really, is 60fps a requirement of a polished game? And really, that's part of my problem with the question posed in the thread; polish is often times unseen or unnoticed by many people...and that it's a considerably subjective observation. I mean, there doesn't seem to be even a distinct difference to many people between gameplay polish and superficial polish.

Going by the logic given, N64 is lucky if it had 3-5% polished games on the system; that the overwhelming majority (better than 80%) of PS1 games weren't polished; that a PC game like Doom 3 will never be considered polished unless you own some outrageously expensive hardware config. that doesn't quite exist yet; that Wind Waker, SMS, Pikmin and others simply aren't polished. MGS wasn't polished, all of the 3D Final Fantasy games, etc. 60fps is still a dream for the vast majority of home games, PC or console, Eastern or Western.