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[dark10x]

But really, is 60fps a requirement of a polished game? And really, that's part of my problem with the question posed in the thread; polish is often times unseen or unnoticed by many people...and that it's a considerably subjective observation. I mean, there doesn't seem to be even a distinct difference to many people between gameplay polish and superficial polish.

No, it's not...it's just one of many signs.

On average, Western games feature inferior animation and presentation. Just look through your games...

How many Western XBOX games have been released on XBOX with the visual perfection of Ninja Gaiden? Incredible animation, extremely detailed models, 60 fps, very optimized loading system, etc. It just feels so incredibly tight.

The thing is, one example just isn't enough. The extends across the board. When I point to 60 fps or a singular game, I am just using one of MANY examples. Look for yourself...

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Oh, I don't disagree about what you've just said. XBOX and GC probably have roughly about the same amount of titles that fit that bill...with PS2 clearly ahead of both. However, I think it's a lot more complicated than that, if you're singling out a platform that easily gets the least amount of Eastern development and the least amount of software support especially tailored for it. If XBOX were to receive the same amount of software support, including all of those titles that were designed exclusively for the platform, I'd say that it would be the same as any other console this gen, in this regard. Having the most popular platform will generally mean that you get more resources and time to make that title shine in an extremely competitive platform.

Still, it's really not all that common to find all of those elements in one package, regardless of what platform they run on or who makes them. And taking into account PC titles, which I count just the same as console titles in a topic like this, I'd say that it's a dead heat as far as the topic is concerned.

 

[cvxfreak]

Generally, the most polished games I've seen this generation are Japanese. Soul Calibur II and Dead or Alive 3 come to mind. Onimusha 3 and Silent Hill 3, plus Resident Evil Zero and even Nintendo games such as Mario Party 5 and Mario Kart: Double Dash all have a great level of polish. At the same time, I own and love games such as Sonic Adventure DX which lacks quite a bit of polish. Metroid Prime is a western game with tons of polish. But generally, I can't stand the buggyness of games such as GTA: Vice City, and hate the lack of polish in Silicon Knight's two GC games, Twin Snakes and Eternal Darkness. My verdict? Japan > The West

 

[Ghost]

No, it's not...it's just one of many signs.

On average, Western games feature inferior animation and presentation. Just look through your games...

How many Western XBOX games have been released on XBOX with the visual perfection of Ninja Gaiden? Incredible animation, extremely detailed models, 60 fps, very optimized loading system, etc. It just feels so incredibly tight.

The thing is, one example just isn't enough. The extends across the board. When I point to 60 fps or a singular game, I am just using one of MANY examples. Look for yourself...

God of War seems to have all the slick animations of Ninja Gaiden. Like i said, in the nineties your point would have been valid but now you cannot group developers into to pools according to where they come from.

Good games come from good developers, Japan had a head start over the west, but the west has caught up.

And doesnt Japan complain of "3d yoi" when framerates drop?, I'd suggest that particular piece of 'polish' is only seen as such in a western market that doesnt need 60fps to enjoy a game.

 

[DemonCleaner]

mostly true

 

[Musashi Wins!]

But really, is 60fps a requirement of a polished game? And really, that's part of my problem with the question posed in the thread; polish is often times unseen or unnoticed by many people...and that it's a considerably subjective observation. I mean, there doesn't seem to be even a distinct difference to many people between gameplay polish and superficial polish.

Wow, do I agree with you, though Dark10x is a great proponent of the latter. He's the guy to read if your main concern is framerate (mine isn't, but there's something to be said for picking your forte I guess).

As a small side-note of questionable relevancy...I was replaying Ace Combat 4 last night and it highlighted small differences to me. That felt like a western concept game that had so many small artistic touches that seemed distinctly eastern in their execution. It was hard for me to imagine a modern war game done with such...polished atmosphere coming directly from a western developer. Perhaps it highlights the differences in what I think of as polished as well...but that game has excellent if expected gameplay, seamless really, combined with an aesthetic sense that made a generic setting of modern combat quite compelling.

 

[wazoo]

IMO, japanese are very good at perfecting old ideas. They do not have any problems to redo the same game over and over, trying to get the perfect balance between graphics, athmosphere and gameplay. Zelda (whixh is an old serie) or ICO (which gameplay can be found in past games already) are good examples.

Western devs often tries new ideas but they do rush the implementation.

Of course, there are exceptions.

 

[Lazy8s]

dark10x:

There is a reason why XBOX has the lowest number of 60 fps titles...

While the meaning of what that tried to say was understandable, the actual comparison and figures used in that statement were faulty.

 

[Jacobi]

Western devs often tries new ideas but they do rush the implementation.

Of course, there are exceptions.

I don't see so many new ideas when I look at Microsoft's, EA's, Ubi Soft's, Take 2's, Eidos' and so on line-ups.

 

[dark10x]

dark10x:

While the meaning of what that tried to say was understandable, the actual comparison and figures used in that statement were faulty.

Explain...

 

[FightyF]

If you look at the real high-tier popular games, you will still find these issues. GTA has framerate drops and a ton of bugs. Halo can have framerate problems and just has polish issues in the sense that it feels very rushed. Tony Hawk has decent enough animation but still winds up as a framerate roller-coaster. KOTOR has framerate problems and extended load times.

Compare that to something like Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry or Metal Gear Solid 2. All of them are more or less locked at the same framerate and (for their time) had a lot more work put into animation than most of their Western peers. The Sony platformers and Metroid Prime are the only big Western titles I can think that have a similar level of effort.

Border...you should also consider the scope of each title.

A game like GTA3...there aren't many (in fact I can't think of ANY) Japanese titles that allows you the freedom and abilities that GTA3 features.

KOTOR is bigger than many Japanese RPGs in some regards, it has a lot of dialogue (both spoken and typed). The graphics do much more than most Japanese titles.

MGS2, the game is not as large and expansive as any of the American titles you've mentioned. Neither is DMC, and neither is NG.

I see the comparison as unfair, since the scope of these blockbuster Western titles is much much larger than the Japanese blockbuster titles.

Perhaps you can compare Splinter Cell with MGS2...both are quite linear and don't consist of large worlds with vehicles. Perhaps you can compare Sonic Heroes with Jax and Daxter. These comparisons would make more sense.

 

[dark10x]

Tony Hawk has decent enough animation but still winds up as a framerate roller-coaster.

Wha? That's not true at all...at least on XBOX (and from what I've seen on PS2).

 

[Lazy8s]

dark10x:

Explain...

Your comparison:
"There is a reason why XBOX has the lowest number of 60 fps titles..."

The Xbox has far less games than the PS2 overall, so there's nothing noteworthy about it also having less 60hz titles. With GameCube, the Xbox is fairly well even in 60hz ones.

A comparison of their respective percentages for 60hz games would make more sense, but the numbers for that might be surprising:
http://www.technology.scee.net/sceesite/files/presentations/PSP/HowFarHaveWeGot.pdf

 

[dark10x]

The Xbox has far less games than the PS2 overall, so there's nothing noteworthy about it also having less 60hz titles. With GameCube, the Xbox is fairly well even in 60hz ones.

I had a feeling you would say that, but I was looking at library percentages in this case. That is, I was not simply "counting" the number of 60 fps titles on XBOX and comparing them to a direct number on PS2. I was looking at the percentage of 60 fps titles in relation the overall library per system. A PS2 game has a much higher chance of pushing 60 fps on average, if one is to analyze the total number of 60 fps games in comparison to those that are not solely on that system. On XBOX, there is a greater chance that a new game will not run at 60 fps, based on the current library. While I certainly do not have exact numbers, I fully believe this to be the case.

Another thing to keep in mind. If a game is created for PlayStation 2 and is Japanese in origin, there is an EXTREMELY high probability that it will run at 60 fps, based on previous numbers. That document refers to the entire library, I assume.

That origin does not necessarily mean a game is 60 fps, of course. One interesting thing I have noticed recently. Take a look at Capcom's overall lineup. You will notice that 95% of the games released on PS2, from Capcom, run at 60 fps. The exceptions, of the top of my head, were RECVX (Dreamcast port), RE-Outbreak, and Monster Hunter. There were perhaps one or two additional titles as well.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"I don't see so many new ideas when I look at Microsoft's, EA's, Ubi Soft's, Take 2's, Eidos'"

Nor do I when I look at Konami, Nintendo, Tecmo, and so on.

 

[jarrod]

"I don't see so many new ideas when I look at Microsoft's, EA's, Ubi Soft's, Take 2's, Eidos'"

Nor do I when I look at Konami, Nintendo, Tecmo, and so on.

I dunno... stuff like Wario Ware, Cubivore or Pikmin is pretty novel, especially in comparison to what those western firms are producing.

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

Wouldn't the stability of the framerate rather than whether it's 60 or not be more of an indication of the level of polish?

I mean 30fps might be a design decision to allow more detail etc.

 

[dark10x]

This doesn't really count for much, but I found it interesting...

Here are all of the Japanese games I own for PS2. I will mark those that do not run at 60 fps.

Ape Escape 2
Armored Core 2
The Bouncer
Dragon Quarter
CV-LoI
Chaos Legion
Clock Tower 3 (30 fps)
Contra SS
Cookie and Cream
Dark Cloud
Dark Cloud 2 (30 fps)
DDRMAX
Devil May Cry
Devil May Cry 2
Disaster Report (~30 fps + slowdown)
Disgaea
Drakengard
EOE
Evergrace
Fatal Frame
Fatal Frame 2 (30 fps)
FFX (30 fps)
Forever Kingdom (base of 30 fps + variable)
GT3
Grandia Xtreme
GGXX
Gungrave
Gungriffon Blaze
ICO (30 fps)
Kingdom Hearts (30 fps)
Klonoa 2
Legaia 2
Megaman X7
MGS2
Onimusha
Orphen
PaRappa 2
REZ
Ridge Racer V
R-Type Final (slowdown)
Rygar
Shadow Hearts
Shadow of Destiny (30 fps)
Silent Hill 2 (30 fps)
Silent Hill 3 (30 fps)
Silpheed
Siren (30 fps)
Skygunner (slowdown)
Suikoden III (30 fps + slowdown and occasional 60 fps)
Tekken Tag
Tenchu 3
VF4
VF4-E
Wild Arms 3
Wipeout Fusion
Xenosaga (30 fps)
Yanya Caballista
ZOE
ZOE2 (slowdown)

Altogether, there are 59 titles. Out of those 56 titles, 12 of them do not run at 60 fps. Out of those 12 titles, only THREE of them have trouble holding a solid framerate of 30 fps. Out of the 60 fps titles, only THREE of those fail to hold 60 fps at a constant rate (and out of those three, only one of them is severe...and that is R-Type Final). The rest of those titles hold 60 fps AT LEAST 95% of the time (and often more). Very solid, if you ask me.

 

[Lazy8s]

dark10x:

That document refers to the entire library, I assume.

"Framerate: 60% were running at 25/30 or less"

 

[Teknopathetic]

Er, Take 2 still has GTA under its belt. While not particularly fresh today (and eclipsed in scope by many games), at its introduction on consoles, it's still particularly a more novel idea than those eastern houses.

 

[jarrod]

Er, Take 2 still has GTA under its belt. While not particularly fresh today (and eclipsed in scope by many games), at its introduction on consoles, it's still particularly a more novel idea than those eastern houses.

Pardon me but wasn't GTA3 essentially the GTA1-2/London concept.... in 3D? How novel!

 

[Teknopathetic]

"Pardon me but wasn't GTA3 essentially the GTA1-2/London concept.... in 3D? How novel!"

Wow, isn't Pikmin just lemmings in 3D? The scope of GTA is what makes/made it so novel. As predominantly a PC gamer, it's nothing new, but it still eclipses a good deal of the console library.

 

[Tellaerin]

"Pardon me but wasn't GTA3 essentially the GTA1-2/London concept.... in 3D? How novel!"

Wow, isn't Pikmin just lemmings in 3D? The scope of GTA is what makes/made it so novel. As predominantly a PC gamer, it's nothing new, but it still eclipses a good deal of the console library.

'Novel' != 'innovative'.

GTA 3 was just a larger-scale version of the free-roaming 3D games (like OoT) that preceded it, tarted up with an antihero lead character and a real-world setting to provide mainstream appeal. Novel? Yes. Entertaining? Definitely. Innovative? Hardly. It was just the logical next step forward for the series, combining an established gameplay paradigm with 3D visuals.

Now compare GTA 3 to Katamari Damacy. Though a game like KD will never post the astronomical sales figures of a GTA in the West, the gameplay is genuinely innovative--how many other 'rolling-objects-into-an-ever-growing-ball' games can you think of? Love it or hate it, the gameplay paradigm is unique. And while I'll be the first to admit I've seen some innovative things from Western developers, the Japanese still seem more comfortable experimenting with the fundamentals of what makes a game, and their output tends to reflect this.

 

[firex]

Innovative is just using unconventional means to reach a conventional goal, in which case I don't think you can say either side really wins.

Is polish being bug free, or is polish having the most details, options, etc. that were originally planned in the final game? Neither side has polish won, either.

It's obviously false to say Western developers don't care about polish, though. That's like saying they don't want to make the best possible game they can because they don't want it to get too many sales.

 

[jarrod]

Wow, isn't Pikmin just lemmings in 3D?

Really? Gee, I never knew Lemmings was an exploratory, character focused, puzzle based RTS.

The scope of GTA is what makes/made it so novel. As predominantly a PC gamer, it's nothing new, but it still eclipses a good deal of the console library.

More novel than a timed reflex based parlor game with classic gaming homages? More novel than a cubist creature survival simlation? More novel than an electro musical shooter? More novel than a surrealist rescue puzzle adventure? More novel than a ball rolling and growing collection game? Ah yes, scope... why didn't I see it sooner... why those "eastern houses" have nothing on that...

 

[AlphaSnake]

Pikmin is nothing like Lemmings... :\

 

[Gorgie]

To me, polish is finishing the game with balls out effort. Most Eastern games don't have jarring moments that take away from the gaming experience, like shoddy animation, slow down, graphical glitches, and even game breaking bugs.

The attitude I see in more Western made games is "good enough", Metroid Prime was a happy exception. But maybe these 'rushed' games are do to the more strict deadlines Westeners face.

 

[dark10x]

Framerate: 60% were running at 25/30 or less

Yes, that was indeed the line I was referring to...

Those numbers DO refer to the entire library, and not just a specific region of games yes?

 

[djtiesto]

Western developers don't care about us Pollacks

Anyways, I'll 75% agree to this statement... I think it comes down to - Western developers try as hard as they can to provide huge areas to wander around, while Japanese developers want to make a much more focused, tighter game... For example, take Yokosuka in Shenmue, and Vice City... Vice City has a lot of generic looking areas, poor texture graphics, limited architecture... while the world of Shenmue is much more detailed and intricate, yet smaller. Western developers also like to rush games out chock-full of bugs and framerate drops. Plus, Japan treats games more as a form of art, instead of a way to cash in quickly on an IP. Japan is much more focused on building a tighter game and narrative, then let the player do whatever it is he wants to do. There are some exceptions to this, Metroid Prime being the obvious one, Star/Warcraft, and Prince of Persia as well. Plus, I prefer Japanese art style much more than American style.

 

[Lazy8s]

dark10x:

Those numbers DO refer to the entire library,

Yes.

 

[Link316]

On average, Western games feature inferior animation and presentation. Just look through your games...

yeah tell me about it, yesterday I made the terrible mistake of popping in GTAVC after playing Dynasty Warriors 4, the terrible load times and choppy framerate in VC was very noticeable and I was disgusted by it

I read about how GTA:SA is larger, more populated and has a much farther draw distance, but I would prefer a 60 fps game instead of having all this stuff crammed in at the expense of the framerate