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[Kusagari]

The issue is that these fucks seem to be willing to fall in line. Even if it means destroying NATO.

They care about power and nothing else. Fuck the country as a whole. They got theirs.

The fucks in congress do, besides Graham and McCain, but Mattis doesn't.

I really wonder what will happen when him and Trump inevitably clash.

 

[Damerman]

I'm sure that Donald came to this conclusion entirely on his own, and that has nothing to do with the fact that dismantling, dividing or otherwise weakening NATO is Russia's #1 foreign policy goal.

whats bothering me is we are just siting and acting like this isn't happening. where is the uproar? all i see are late night jokes about how trump is putin's lover... but nothing serious.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

The fucks in congress do, besides Graham and McCain, but Mattis doesn't.

I really wonder what will happen when him and Trump inevitably clash.

Rubio don't give a fuck either. He's already talking about the need to re-elect Trump.

 

[kingkaiser]

What do you think she'll do?

What she does best, austerity bombing from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

 

[eot]

Yes, only time article 5 has ever been used. The allies were there for the US, so all this talk about them not holding their end of the deal is hypocritical as hell.

That they helped doesn't change the facts about their military budgets.

 

[Kusagari]

Rubio don't give a fuck either. He's already talking about the need to re-elect Trump.

I never had faith in that puke doing anything. I'm sure he'll back Tillerson.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

whats bothering me is we are just siting and acting like this isn't happening. where is the uproar? all i see are late night jokes about how trump is putin's lover... but nothing serious.

No checks. And little threat of any true checks even after 2018. Dems are marginalized at every level of government. I mean when Nixon was being a fuck, the Dems had both the House and Senate.

Here? Dems have zero meaningful power to do anything.

 

[thehypocrite]

The cost of a nuclear war would be horrific with or without NATO. I'm not sure what you are saying here as lots of countries are not in NATO but that does not immediately mean that Russia will think that launching a nuke at them would be fine. I think that the last time a nuke was seriously considered as an option was in the Korean war by the USA but thankfully it was decided against.

The main purpose of NATO is to defend Europe from Russian aggression or to deter that aggression. Sadly nuclear weapon deployment is part of that but France has it's own nuclear weapons program also. But really I think that spending on conventional forces and anti terrorism is what most people think about. As in should Europe reconsider how much it needs to do to protect itself from potential Russian aggression and reconsider the challenges that face the world in the future. Really the best defence is for war to be politically and economically impossible in the first place.

NATO increases the political and economical cost of war, so by your own argument it's not obsolete and part of the solution. Thus, tell me again how the golden waterfall of piss can be right about NATO.

 

[Drifters]

Seems pretty simple; He's going to reduce our debt by making member nations pay for our policing. I mean, I can't say I agree with the logic, but that is the premise he is working under.

 

[iz.podpolja]

Europe needs to get their shit together and unify asap. Enemies on all fronts at this point.

Isnt Poland (PiS) pretty much chummy with Putin now though? Same with Orban.

Nah, PiS loves Orban, Orban loves Putin, but PiS hates Putin. They might be equally authoritarian though, it seems that it is the common characteristics of political developments in Eastern Europe these days.

 

[MMarston]

Looks like we may actually see the end of US hegemony in our lifetimes. Never thought I'd see the day.

If the rest of the world manages to survive through the process, I'd gladly welcome it.

 

[djkimothy]

Americans elect man who believes NATO is obsolete, Muslims should be put on a database and climate change is a Chinese hoax.

Every major policy Trump has advocated seems to have been approved by, at least, 47% of the American electorate. Crucially, these positions are not new - he held them throughout his campaign and people readily embraced them.

Rather than portraying this as the words of a sole lunatic, it's time people here deal with the reality that half the country supports lunacy. The country is going to hell and all people seem to be debating is one man; it is infuriating to see how blind people are to the underlying causes.

Yah but. Economic anxieties, both sides are the same, don't trust clinton, etc.

Who am i kidding. the electorate is a joke.

 

[woodland]

I think that friend might be Mr. Putin...

 

[grumpy]

Yah but. Economic anxieties, both sides are the same, don't trust clinton, etc.

Who am i kidding. the electorate is a joke.

"Bernie. Or. Bust."

 

[Engell]

...

 

[thehypocrite]

Seems pretty simple; He's going to reduce our debt by making member nations pay for our policing. I mean, I can't say I agree with the logic, but that is the premise he is working under.

Nobody is going to pay. He's not expecting them to pay. Now even less that the mask is off of comrade orange piss. He is not going to reduce the debt. He will fuck over everyone and everything to benefit putin.

 

[Phantast2k]

The key section of the treaty is Article 5. Its commitment clause defines the casus foederis. It commits each member state to consider an armed attack against one member state, in Europe or North America, to be an armed attack against them all.

It has been invoked only once in NATO history: by the United States after the September 11 attacks in 2001.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_5

Coalition casualties in Afghanistan - Wikipedia

 

[More Fun To Compute]

NATO increases the political and economical cost of war, so by your own argument it's not obsolete and part of the solution. Thus, tell me again how the golden waterfall of piss can be right about NATO.

The arms race and proxy wars increased the political and economic cost of peace, that's a major reason behind why the soviet union collapsed. Things like the refugee crisis and syria increase the cost of peace in Europe. Honestly I would be happier to live in a world where there was not an arms race, proxy wars and a lethal nuclear stand off right on my doorstep. I don't know why Russia needs to spend such a crazy % of it's GDP on military spending.

 

[thehypocrite]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_5

Coalition casualties in Afghanistan - Wikipedia

The ultimate cost, but ignorant US citizens think that they are all free riders that are getting a free lunch.

 

[Kusagari]

Funny how the one country Trump never cries about in terms of aid/support isn't on that list.

Spoiler

Yes I know Israel isn't part of NATO

 

[thehypocrite]

The arms race and proxy wars increased the political and economic cost of peace, that's a major reason behind why the soviet union collapsed. Things like the refugee crisis and syria increase the cost of peace in Europe. Honestly I would be happier to live in a world where there was not an arms race, proxy wars and a lethal nuclear stand off right on my doorstep. I don't know why Russia needs to spend such a crazy % of it's GDP on military spending.

You didn't answer the question. Do so or stop replying to my posts with a canned response that follows no logical sequence of discussion.

 

[Drifters]

Nobody is going to pay. He's not expecting them to pay. Now even less that the mask is off of comrade orange piss. He is not going to reduce the debt. He will fuck over everyone and everything to benefit putin.

Again, I'm not defending his reasoning but I understand why he's saying what he's trying to do. Instead of a dollar vs. the rest of the world, I envision he is going to offer trade tariffs of countries that don't comply with how he thinks things should be done. What's funny is this is a completely isolationist stance as well as globalization move however Trump wants to control how things work.

Truly he is delusional.

 

[Lexxism]

Coalition casualties in Afghanistan - Wikipedia

What does the * mean? Also, 158 casualty for Canada? Isn't that big especially how small Canada's population is? Or should I say its forces?

 

[More Fun To Compute]

You didn't answer the question. Do so or stop replying to my posts with a canned response that follows no logical sequence of discussion.

Maintaining a large standing army increases the cost of peace because the military costs money. A state that is heavily dependent on the military industrial complex is not politically opposed to war since it's a source of the livelihood of people deeply connected to the government. It's true that the devastation of modern war dramatically increases the cost of war to the point where it doesn't really make as much sense for major powers to go to war with each other to make money. But war is not obsolete.

 

[moondoggerr]

That they helped doesn't change the facts about their military budgets.

Here's what the US gets out of carrying non-paying members of NATO: stability and peace. It worked well for 70 years. We're about to find out how expensive instability and conflict are.

Trump is penny wise and pound foolish.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Here's what the US gets out of carrying non-paying members of NATO: stability and peace. It worked well for 70 years. We're about to find out how expensive instability and conflict are.

Trump is penny wise and pound foolish.

and influence in those areas.

 

[Frozenprince]

EU needs to federalize

 

[capitalCORN]

Maintaining a large standing army increases the cost of peace because the military costs money. A state that is heavily dependent on the military industrial complex is not politically opposed to war since it's a source of the livelihood of people deeply connected to the government. It's true that the devastation of modern war dramatically increases the cost of war to the point where it doesn't really make as much sense for major powers to go to war with each other to make money. But war is not obsolete.

Massive respect. And Trump is not be trusted

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

EU needs to federalize

It does, but it won't / can't. It's too much too fast. Especially with nationalism resurgent.

There needs to be a strong core that can move towards federalization without worrying about the periphery. My previous proposal is France, Germany, Benelux. But even that much "easier" group of countries is an implausible near future prospect. Anti-EU movements are too strong and many people who are pro-EU in general are against federalization.

 

[thehypocrite]

Maintaining a large standing army increases the cost of peace because the military costs money. A state that is heavily dependent on the military industrial complex is not politically opposed to war since it's a source of the livelihood of people deeply connected to the government. It's true that the devastation of modern war dramatically increases the cost of war to the point where it doesn't really make as much sense for major powers to go to war with each other to make money. But war is not obsolete.

I never said war was obsolete. You said Trump was right, but then you agreed that NATO isn't obsolete as it increases the cost of war. Thus the question still remains why is comrade orange piss right again?

 

[excelsiorlef]

The arms race and proxy wars increased the political and economic cost of peace, that's a major reason behind why the soviet union collapsed. Things like the refugee crisis and syria increase the cost of peace in Europe. Honestly I would be happier to live in a world where there was not an arms race, proxy wars and a lethal nuclear stand off right on my doorstep. I don't know why Russia needs to spend such a crazy % of it's GDP on military spending.

Maintaining a large standing army increases the cost of peace because the military costs money. A state that is heavily dependent on the military industrial complex is not politically opposed to war since it's a source of the livelihood of people deeply connected to the government. It's true that the devastation of modern war dramatically increases the cost of war to the point where it doesn't really make as much sense for major powers to go to war with each other to make money. But war is not obsolete.

Can you answer the question instead of dodging? Do you believe Trump is right and that NATO is obsolete?

 

[Barajas_201]

Wow, is Trump really gonna destroy the empire? If so, can't wait!

EU better unite even further now tho, maybe even save the weak members they'd screwed over like Greece. Also, EU army soon?

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

EU needs to federalize

Yes. In the immediate they need to put together a rapid reaction force of 2-3 divisions ready to deploy around the continent.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

It's funny, it's like that dossier is still the going plan going forward despite the compromising.

Well Ukraine had a good run...

Pretty much.

 

[Lime]

Fucking fascist piece of shit.

Can't believe people voted for the worst of the worst. The US must be a sick society to allow this to happen

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Can you answer the question instead of dodging? Do you believe Trump is right and that NATO is obsolete?

I'm not dodging anything in terms of replies to what I wrote. NATO is an institution created when the world looked different to what it is today. Is Trump the right person to reinvent it? Is he the right person to clean your toilet? I doubt it, but he has the job.

 

[sphagnum]

Wow, is Trump really gonna destroy the empire? If so, can't wait!

No, he's just going to make it subservient to a different one.

This is not the right path for antiimperialism.

 

[Shadynasty]

Well Ukraine had a good run...

Ukraine never became a member of NATO. If they would have one could argue that the invasion of Crimea would have went much differently. Now they could join NATO and it probably won't mean shit.

Whether Trump is just trolling or not. It's not a great idea publicly talk shit on such a strategically essential alliance for eastern Europe. Even with all that I can't see him turning his back on the alliance especially if a NATO member is attacked.

 

[remist]

I'd like to get an actual transcript for context because some articles say he also described NATO as an important institution that nonetheless needs reform.

 

[tuxfool]

No, he's just going to make it subservient to a different one.

This is not the right path for antiimperialism.

This isn't the right person to engage on this point. He doesn't give a shit. He somehow thinks Trump isn't all that bad for mexico.

 

[PowderedToast]

I'm not dodging anything in terms of replies to what I wrote. NATO is an institution created when the world looked different to what it is today. Is Trump the right person to reinvent it? Is he the right person to clean your toilet? I doubt it, but he has the job.

there is no reinvention or reform happening here. it's a dismantling.

this is the road to isolationism, protectionism and - i don't care if this term is becoming overused - fascism.

 

[Talamius]

I would be very afraid if I were Latvia, Estonia, the Ukraine or Lithuania right now.

 

[Insane Metal]

This can't end well.

 

[Kas]

I'm going to be in the Balkans, come March.

I really, really hope nothing happens while I'm there.

 

[Barajas_201]

No, he's just going to make it subservient to a different one.

This is not the right path for antiimperialism.

Hmm, interesting. It's true this isn't how I wanted it, especially because being from Mexico we're gonna be hit the hardest, but what is the right path?

 

[AlphaDump]

Trump is holding exclusive interviews with foreign news entities and not our own, discussing the weakening of NATO.


This is tactical as fuck.

 

[slit]

We had the situation in Ukraine where NATO did not intervene so although while I agree that these countries want defence in practice it isn't coming from NATO. Maybe for good reasons such as possible escalation to direct conflict with Russia.

Ukraine is NOT NATO! Why some people don't seem to understand that is beyond me. Also how do you figure the Eastern Bloc's defense is not coming from NATO? Do you think Russia would not try to instigate more power plays in Poland for example without NATO? If you don't, you are not using your brain.

 

[Shadynasty]

there is no reinvention or reform happening here. it's a dismantling.

this is the road to isolationism, protectionism and - i don't care if this term is becoming overused - fascism.

It's not actually any of that.. yet. Now it's just talk, shit talking, posturing etc. I've watched Trump do this with so many things and the only way I can accurately describe it is trolling. He makes purposeful provocative statements to illicit outrage. Look at these OT threads. He's a troll. Chappelle was 100% correct. Why he's doing it is another story and I can only speculate like everyone else. Only he knows.

 

[thehypocrite]

I'm not dodging anything in terms of replies to what I wrote. NATO is an institution created when the world looked different to what it is today. Is Trump the right person to reinvent it? Is he the right person to clean your toilet? I doubt it, but he has the job.

You were created in a time the world looked different from now, are you obsolete? That's one of the weakest arguments I've ever read. Tell me again why comrade orange piss is right as you originally claimed.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm not dodging anything in terms of replies to what I wrote. NATO is an institution created when the world looked different to what it is today. Is Trump the right person to reinvent it? Is he the right person to clean your toilet? I doubt it, but he has the job.

He is calling it obsolete as in it must cease to exist... do you believe it is in fact obsolete?