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[excelsiorlef]

You were created in a time the world looked different from now, are you obsolete? That's one of the weakest arguments I've ever read. Tell me again why comrade orange piss is right as you originally claimed.

Seriously, I mean know what happened the last time something that was a preventive measure was deemed obsolete because it's just not the same as it was back then?

Black folk got royally screwed via a fuckton of brand new voter restriction laws....

 

[kmag]

That they helped doesn't change the facts about their military budgets.

The military budget thing is a tad overblown. Germany has obvious historic reasons for limiting it's force projection (which limits spend) and France while marginally under the budget has a more capable force than the UK who's over it despite the UK having a nominally large starting GDP (although not anymore when dollar denominated).

The US spends an obscene amount more than it requires, mostly because domestic political reasons.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Ukraine is NOT NATO! Why some people don't seem to understand that is beyond me. Also how do you figure the Eastern Bloc's defense is not coming from NATO? Do you think Russia would not try to instigate more power plays in Poland for example without NATO? If you don't, you are not using your brain.

The point was about the former soviet sphere of influence and Ukraine as a sovereign country did ask NATO for help.

 

[sphagnum]

Hmm, interesting. It's true this isn't how I wanted it, especially because being from Mexico we're gonna be hit the hardest, but what is the right path?

Transforming the US into a social democratic* country that acts as a bulwark against authoritarian powers like Russia and China but does not manipulate, invade, bully, or economically exploit other countries. Rather than using its alliances to prop up global capitalism that exploits the periphery to the benefit of the core, the US needs to stop forcing its way into everyone's affairs, but if a country genuinely wants American power protecting it (like the Baltic states) then that's fine. This sounds unfeasible but I think the election of Trump shows that bizarre things are possible.

*I'd prefer socialist but that's not going to happen so let's take what we can get here.

 

[thehypocrite]

Seriously, I mean know what happened the last time something that was a preventive measure was deemed obsolete because it's just not the same as it was back then?

Black folk got royally screwed via a fuckton of brand new voter restriction laws....

Yeah, that's not a reason for doing something, It's more like an expression of ignorance and vacous motivations or malice masquerading as them.

 

[Xando]

Coalition casualties in Afghanistan - Wikipedia

Quite ironic that some Americans call us freeloaders when our people went to a 10 year war for them.

 

[slit]

The point was about the former soviet sphere of influence and Ukraine as a sovereign country did ask NATO for help.

Do you not know that Ukraine is a very small piece of their former influence who has no formal defense treaty with NATO? Do you not know what the difference is? Do you want what happened in Ukraine or even something worse to happen elsewhere in Eastern Europe? Unchecked Russia can do a lot to fuck them over.

 

[TheExecutive]

NATO may be one of the only military alliances that's far from obsolete but whatever you say Trump.

 

[Shadynasty]

The point was about the former soviet sphere of influence and Ukraine as a sovereign country did ask NATO for help.

In what capacity?

The point I made on the previous page was that if Ukraine would have become a NATO member they wouldn't be asking for help after the invasion of Crimea. From what I've read Ukraine public support for joining NATO was low. Now obviously since 2013 it's been much higher.

 

[Kasumin]

It's not actually any of that.. yet. Now it's just talk, shit talking, posturing etc. I've watched Trump do this with so many things and the only way I can accurately describe it is trolling. He makes purposeful provocative statements to illicit outrage. Look at these OT threads. He's a troll. Chappelle was 100% correct. Why he's doing it is another story and I can only speculate like everyone else. Only he knows.

I can see where you're coming from, and I really want to go with you on that. But international politics is not a good place for a troll even if they're all bark and no bite. Words have power (despite what Cheetolini says).

Also, the outright maliciousness his transition team has shown frightens me. Even if Trump isn't willing to back up his threats, one of his cronies might.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Steve Bannon scares the shit out of me.

 

[Jeels]

How is it not clear that he is gargling Putin's dick?

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Do you not know that Ukraine is a very small piece of their former influence who has no formal defense treaty with NATO. Do you not know what the difference is? Do you want what happened in Ukraine or even something worse to happen elsewhere in Eastern Europe? Unchecked Russia can do a lot to fuck them over.

I didn't say that it would have been an easy or obvious choice to help them or that they were part of NATO. In fact I said that the potential for direct conflict with Russian forces would be very dangerous. I doubt that there is a risk of NATO being shut down overnight with no agreement in the EU to create a new mutual defence treaty to replace it. But if that is seriously on the table I would say that it was insane and that everyone should oppose it.

 

[sphagnum]

Like, if after the 90s Russia didn't elect a revanchist nationalist, then yes NATO would probably be obsolete and it would be best to dismantle it so that the US isn't wasting money and having unnecessary bases in Europe or an alliance that could be used to prop up global American hegemony.

But Russia elected a revanchist nationalist and now the only thing protecting eastern European independence is NATO.

So turn NATO into something better. Turn America into something better. Don't destroy them.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

The point was about the former soviet sphere of influence and Ukraine as a sovereign country did ask NATO for help.

NATO did render assistance in non-leathal military equipment, intelligence, and training.

 

[joshcryer]

So has Trump just been given Alexander Dugin's Foundations of Geopolitics and been instructed to follow it to a tee?

'cause if so you are looking at the reemergence of the Eastern Bloc along with a terrifying ultra nationalist tendency in the world that is scary as fuck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

 

[Aaronology]

How is it not clear that he is gargling Putin's dick?

It's perfectly clear to a lot of people. They simply have a vested interest in publicly downplaying it.

 

[Torokil]

That NATO thing is nothing new but lol at that EU conspiracy.

 

[Shadynasty]

I can see where you're coming from, and I really want to go with you on that. But international politics is not a good place for a troll even if they're all bark and no bite. Words have power (despite what Cheetolini says).

Also, the outright maliciousness his transition team has shown frightens me. Even if Trump isn't willing to back up his threats, one of his cronies might.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Steve Bannon scares the shit out of me.

People have every right to be scared as a lot of this is uncharted territory, but I have to have faith that a military alliance (the greatest ever conceived imo) that has endured since the end of WW2 can endure 4-8 years of a trolling American president.

 

[Barajas_201]

Transforming the US into a social democratic* country that acts as a bulwark against authoritarian powers like Russia and China but does not manipulate, invade, bully, or economically exploit other countries. Rather than using its alliances to prop up global capitalism that exploits the periphery to the benefit of the core, the US needs to stop forcing its way into everyone's affairs, but if a country genuinely wants American power protecting it (like the Baltic states) then that's fine. This sounds unfeasible but I think the election of Trump shows that bizarre things are possible.

*I'd prefer socialist but that's not going to happen so let's take what we can get here.

You are talking directly to my core man, this would be so great (and indeed reality is sometimes stranger than fiction) but if GAF is any indication of a "progressive" mindset of America than I'm afraid it will never happen. "Liberals" in the US are so off the spectrum that they are down right right-wing, case in point Bernie Sanders, he's considered a "radical" in their eyes. He would've been a good step towards you're (and my) ideals but welp... here we are so I'm taking what I can get mate, hope Trumps succeeds in destroying the American empire.

 

[Ac30]

You are talking directly to my core man, this would be so great (and indeed reality is sometimes stranger than fiction) but if GAF is any indication of a "progressive" mindset of America than I'm afraid it will never happen. "Liberals" in the US are so off the spectrum that they are down right right-wing, case in point Bernie Sanders, he's considered a "radical" in their eyes. He would've been a good step towards you're (and my) ideals but welp... here we are so I'm taking what I can get mate, hope Trumps succeeds in destroying the American empire.

The American empire, as you see it, is what holds NATO and the like together - and if you're Mexican, him destroying NAFTA will take you guys out too. No one wins. Actually scratch that the only one who wins from this madness is Russia, surprise.

I mean I'm shitting myself as a European at this point so

 

[Lime]

So has Trump just been given Alexander Dugin's Foundations of Geopolitics and been instructed to follow it to a tee?

'cause if so you are looking at the reemergence of the Eastern Bloc along with a terrifying ultra nationalist tendency in the world that is scary as fuck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

Damn....

 

[sphagnum]

You are talking directly to my core man, this would be so great (and indeed reality is sometimes stranger than fiction) but if GAF is any indication of a "progressive" mindset of America than I'm afraid it will never happen. "Liberals" in the US are so off the spectrum that they are down right right-wing, case in point Bernie Sanders, he's considered a "radical" in their eyes. He would've been a good step towards you're (and my) ideals but welp... here we are so I'm taking what I can get mate, hope Trumps succeeds in destroying the American empire.

The problem is that things will only get worse under a hyper nationalist, Russia-subservient America. Breaking down NATO does nothing to promote world peace.

Appeasement of fascists is not peace, it's slavery.

 

[slit]

I didn't say that it would have been an easy or obvious choice to help them or that they were part of NATO. In fact I said that the potential for direct conflict with Russian forces would be very dangerous. I doubt that there is a risk of NATO being shut down overnight with no agreement in the EU to create a new mutual defence treaty to replace it. But if that is seriously on the table I would say that it was insane and that everyone should oppose it.

If Trump is serious there is no table. Creating a new mutual defense organization could take a long time without an immediate clear threat to unite Europe. He's not going to help in that regard while his Russian chum is plotting against any unity on the European continent.

 

[KingK]

You are talking directly to my core man, this would be so great (and indeed reality is sometimes stranger than fiction) but if GAF is any indication of a "progressive" mindset of America than I'm afraid it will never happen. "Liberals" in the US are so off the spectrum that they are down right right-wing, case in point Bernie Sanders, he's considered a "radical" in their eyes. He would've been a good step towards you're (and my) ideals but welp... here we are so I'm taking what I can get mate, hope Trumps succeeds in destroying the American empire.

It'll be a lot easier for those ideals to manifest within American hegemony in the near future than in Russian imperialism.

 

[theignoramus]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

Woah

 

[Vicetrailia]

Trump saying this to distract from Russia situation? Either way he is now the dumbest motherfucker of all time, of ALL TIME. Destabilizer in chief.

 

[Shadynasty]

Woah

I need to read this book.

 

[BeforeU]

LOL of course he does

 

[Kasumin]

So has Trump just been given Alexander Dugin's Foundations of Geopolitics and been instructed to follow it to a tee?

'cause if so you are looking at the reemergence of the Eastern Bloc along with a terrifying ultra nationalist tendency in the world that is scary as fuck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

The worst part about this is that this sounds like a conspiracy theory. But it's an actual book and maps onto Russia's actions in the past 10-15 years...

We really live in an age where the truth seems like it's false and people are buying into lies en masse.

 

[sphagnum]

It'll be a lot easier for those ideals to manifest within American hegemony in the near future than in Russian imperialism.

Exactly. There are elements in Russia that could do some good if they ever got power somehow, but I'd be skeptical of the communists there because they seem to really be more like anti-capitalist Russian nationalists. They're just Putin with more hatred of oligarchs. They don't have any interest in internationalism. Same thing with China - they call themselves anti-imperialist communists but they're state capitalists and doing all sorts of stuff in Africa and SE Asia that shows that they're just building their own China-focused empire.

The US is the one best suited to upholding progressive values. That's a tough struggle but it's also our best shot.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

So has Trump just been given Alexander Dugin's Foundations of Geopolitics and been instructed to follow it to a tee?

'cause if so you are looking at the reemergence of the Eastern Bloc along with a terrifying ultra nationalist tendency in the world that is scary as fuck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

... wow, I did not know that. "UK must be cut off from Europe". Well, that's a success.

But if its politicians weren't cowards, we wouldn't be talking about Brexit either. Hopefully having Parliament vote on it will throw it out like it should be, and we can proceed to tell Russia to shove it, as well as Puppet Elect.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

So has Trump just been given Alexander Dugin's Foundations of Geopolitics and been instructed to follow it to a tee?

'cause if so you are looking at the reemergence of the Eastern Bloc along with a terrifying ultra nationalist tendency in the world that is scary as fuck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

Damn....

Woah

Large sections of it are ridiculous, while others represent plausible ideas but usually ones which predate the book. For example, it mentions:

Russia should use its special forces within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism, for instance, provoke "Afro-American racists". Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics.

Provoking racial and ethnic tensions is something that dates back to the Cold War. A paragraph from a book on the history of the KGB, for example, has the following to say:

[Martin Luther] King, whom the KGB feared might avert the race war it hoped would be ignited by the long hot summers which began in 1965, as probably the only American to be the target of both KGB and FBI active measures

Then later

In August 1967 the Centre approved an operational plan by the deputy head of Service A, Yuri Modin, former controller of the Magnificent Five, to discredit King and his chief lieutenants by placing articles in the African press, which could then be reprinted in American newspapers, portraying King as an ”Uncle Tom" who was secretly receiving government subsidies to tame the civil rights movement and prevent it threatening the Johnson administration. While leading freedom marches under the admiring glare of worldwide television, King was allegedly in close touch with the President. The same operational plan also contained a series of active measures designed to discredit US policy ”on the negro." The Centre authorized Modin:

• To organize, through the use of KGB residency resources in the US, the publication and distribution of brochures, pamphlets, leaflets and appeals denouncing the policy of the Johnson administration on the Negro question and exposing the brutal terrorist methods being used by the government to suppress the Negro rights movement.
• To arrange, via available agent resources, for leading figures in the legal profession to make public statements discrediting the policy of the Johnson administration on the Negro question.
• To forge and distribute through illegal channels a document showing that the John Birch Society, in conjunction with the Minuteman organization, is developing a plan for the physical elimination of leading figures in the Negro movement in the US. 84

After King was assassinated, they switched gears from trying to get him replaced by a more radical figure, to supporting him as a martyr, hoping that civil unrest would continue to intensify and cause an all out race war in America.

KGB activities regarding the funding of all sorts of dissident groups in America are well known. Many such organizations did not even realize they were being funded by Russia. Not just pro-communist groups, but anything anti-establishment, anything that was pro-isolationist, anything anti-nuclear or pro-pacifism could be a viable candidate for support from the KGB. What we are seeing today is really more of a descendant of this tradition of KGB strategy than it is slavishly following this geopolitics book. It's too full of ludicrous suggestions to be taken seriously in its entirety.

 

[Dopus]

Exactly. There are elements in Russia that could do some good if they ever got power somehow, but I'd be skeptical of the communists there because they seem to really be more like anti-capitalist Russian nationalists. They're just Putin with more hatred of oligarchs. They don't have any interest in internationalism. Same thing with China - they call themselves anti-imperialist communists but they're state capitalists and doing all sorts of stuff in Africa and SE Asia that shows that they're just building their own China-focused empire.

The US is the one best suited to upholding progressive values. That's a tough struggle but it's also our best shot.

Our best shot for Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism.

 

[sphagnum]

Our best shot for Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism.

It's true!

 

[gaugebozo]

Looking at the article in the OP, Trump about Syrian refugees to Germany: "I think she made one very catastrophic mistake and that was taking all of these illegals, you know taking all of the people from wherever they come from."

Uh, they're not illegal if they're supposed to be there. That's just the way he treats immigrants, isn't it?

 

[Dopus]

It's true!

Indeed it is comrade

 

[Zushin]

Scary stuff. So the new world order if Trump/Putin got their way would have Russia/US on one side and the rest of the EU minus UK on the other?

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I'm shocked he knows a word like obsolete. That's above his typical 4th grade language skills.

 

[Lime]

Looking at the article in the OP, Trump about Syrian refugees to Germany: "I think she made one very catastrophic mistake and that was taking all of these illegals, you know taking all of the people from wherever they come from."

Uh, they're not illegal if they're supposed to be there. That's just the way he treats immigrants, isn't it?

Trump doesn't know what legal status is accorded to someone by virtue of them being refugees.

Instead, to him "refugee" means black/brown person and to him, those are illegal without white people's approval to be there.

 

[Ithil]

Someone should ask him "What does NATO stand for?".

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Someone should ask him "What does NATO stand for?".

Not A Trump Organization.

 

[Lime]

Someone should ask him "What does NATO stand for?".

I'm with Ashee in that other thread: it doesn't matter what dumb and vile and hateful shit he does and says, his millions of voters will still vote for him regardless.

 

[Lautaro]

An interesting point in the Bloomberg article is that he mentions a "nuclear deal" with Russia.

I can see now how's that gonna play:

- Reunion with Putin.
- Removes sanctions.
- Claims it was a "great deal" because Russia and the US are going to reduce their nuclear arsenal in the name of peace or some other bs.
- Nobody mentions Ukraine or Crimea.

Subtlety is dead.

 

[bplewis24]

Looking at the article in the OP, Trump about Syrian refugees to Germany: "I think she made one very catastrophic mistake and that was taking all of these illegals, you know taking all of the people from wherever they come from."

Uh, they're not illegal if they're supposed to be there. That's just the way he treats immigrants, isn't it?

That's because for white nationalists and their republican-enablers, the term "illegals" resonates much better. It probably polls much better. And it allows them to default to a "law and order" narrative where they say they aren't being racist or nationalist, they are just trying to 'enforce the law.'

Basically, it's a shiny new dog whistle.

 

[Xe4]

It's gross that he's even considering this, and sad that the American people don't care more.

Trump is really going to fuck over Europe in the next 4-8 years. As an american I'd like to apologize prematurely for him. It was one of the biggest mistakes we've ever made electing this fuck.

 

[theignoramus]

Large sections of it are ridiculous, while others represent plausible ideas but usually ones which predate the book.

This Aleksandr Dugin fellow is a fucking psychotic, but hes nobody's fool. Some of what he says reminds me of Steve Bannon's worldview. I feel like if Bannon wasnt restricted by Western laws, he might advocate wholesale extermination of certain groups or cultures just as readily as Dugin.

 

[Kasumin]

Fucking fascist piece of shit.

Can't believe people voted for the worst of the worst. The US must be a sick society to allow this to happen

US society is sick, in a sense. There's been over 30 years of propaganda from the political right that has drawn a not insignificant number of Americans into their corrupt narrative. This election (and Trump being able to get the nomination at all) was the result of so many decades of this shit.

Reagan poisoned the well. But I guess Nixon was the one who created the formula for the poison in the first place. Republicans, working to destroy America one administration at a time!

 

[Iksenpets]

Sorry to any soon-to-be-dead members of Estonia-GAF.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Trump is the biggest threat to national security in America.

 

[Lime]

Trump is the biggest threat to national security in America.

I'd say in the world actually. Fascist wildcard with a an empowered GOP with the worlds biggest military, mass surveillance network, and largest arsenal of nukes. It's going to be some extremely terrifying years ahead, that's for sure, and I'm already having anxiety attacks since November.