• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Twin Peaks Season 3 OT |25 Years Later...It Is Happening Again

Status
Not open for further replies.
The egg thing looked a lot like what Dougie turned into and MIKE seemed pretty confused at what the fuck was going on but knew he was created for a purpose.

So maybe Dougie was a creation of the White Lodge or Mauve Room and or an unknown party? But then DoppelCoop seems to be wanting to kill actual Coop knowing he would be sent from the Mauve to replace Dougie?

Im confused.
 
Checked the scene from episode 2 with Mr C talking to "Jeffries", I think it's the same voice as the woodsman!

I found much of this episode too dark - not in context but as in too dark to see what was going on. During the scene with a man walking out of the desert, I thought the silhouette was Jefferies because it looked a bit Bowie.

Not sure how Lynch is going to ret-con Bowie-Jefferies into the villain he appears to be in this show though.
 

gun_haver

Member
Art is allowed it be whatever it wants. This idea that it has to stagnate to please fans is disgusting.

That's true, but people are allowed to like or dislike something, too. I have liked every episode so far, with the mild exception of this one which I found a little boring. The symbolism of what is happening - pure good vs pure evil, and Laura Palmer being put into that battle in a very explicit way as a golden soul sent to Earth in response to an outbreak of evil - is just kind of silly to me, and reduces the mystery of the show. I liked it better when you didn't quite know what these forces that were influencing things were. I guess you still don't but now we have this information on what they look like, where they live, and when they started bleeding into the world. In this way, it's not much different from the supernatural mythology of any other genre show, it's just delivered in a very obtuse and slow-paced way.

At the end of the episode when the hobo walked off into the dark, and you heard the sounds of the horse from the poem, and you had seen his eyes turn white, I just thought 'huh. That's...it?'. Just left me a bit cold. I liked some of the visuals but I also know David Lynch enough to know that a lot of the time, this stuff is only what you make of it. I didn't make much of it.

If this had been it's own separate movie, my reaction would be a bit different. I wouldn't have expected more so at the end I wouldn't have been disappointed, but at the end of this episode I gotta say I was a bit disappointed that this is all I got this week, since now we need to wait two. I actually like the story that is currently going on and all of the characters, new and old, and I am curious to know more about how they fit in to all of this, and what they're gonna do next. A dry origin story of the evil isn't something I relished in watching for 50 minutes, really.
 

Dusk Golem

A 21st Century Rockefeller
Three more misc thoughts I want to throw out there;

I remember reading a lot of stuff on Lynch a few years ago before the new season was announced, and there being some fans that Lynch never went as weird or artistic in such a pure unadulterated way as he did with his first work in Eraserhead. I'm wondering what those fans are thinking with this new season, while you could make arguments for Inland Empire I do think this series has now on multiple occasions captured a very Eraserhead feeling.

Before this new season started airing, Lynch said in an interview that Twin Peaks Season 3 ended up being the most fun he's ever had working on something and he loved the experience of working on it. The more of the season I see, the more I can tell Lynch obviously loved what he was doing here.

I also said this last week after Part 7, but I said then that I imagine this season is going to have a crazy and hard to predict final few episodes I think will blow everyone away. After this week's episode, that's seeming more and more plausible.

10 more episodes to go, still. We're not even half-way done yet.
 

Katori

Member
Something I think a lot of people aren't getting when they try to rationalize the disappointment of old fans if that Twin Peaks used to be a character-driven show. One of the things that made Twin Peaks so successful and influential was it's extremely strong characterization.

You were following the characters in Twin Peaks. The lore and the mystery were the backdrop that occasionally reached from the background and gave you a good shake. But first and foremost, Twin Peaks was about the dramatic lives and intersections of a whole town's worth of characters.

Even the season two finale, which people say is the show's weirdest, was character driven. Hawk warned Cooper he has to face his shadow self with perfect courage. Cooper goes in alone to save Annie and a vigilant Harry waits outside for hours. Andy, knowing what is going on over his head, tends to Harry by offering him breakfast rather than ask what's going on. In the meantime, Benjamin Horne is confessing to Donna that he's his biological father. Doc Hayward, in a break from character, reacts violently and throws him into the fireplace while Donna sobs and screams about her paternity. The onus is on Donna's mother for the first time, an inconspicuous character, who suddenly is shaded with a history of betrayal. Audrey Horne chains herself to a bank vault to protest her father's development, Pete and Thomas detonate a bomb, and Leo is trapped beneath a spider cage in Windom Earle's hideout.

The hugest and most palpable difference is that old Twin Peaks focused on people and characters and relationships. It was about what made them hurt and what made them scared and what made them cry. We saw deep into their hearts and souls and cared for them. And when crazy inter-dimensional travel happened, it was still about them. It was still about them and what they wanted and how it was going to affect everyone around them.

New Twin Peaks is not like that at all. We don't get to know any characters. Characters rarely make appearances in consecutive episodes. They don't have deep conversations. Dougie is literally a non-character. That's how polar opposite the show is. The show's protagonist is a vegetable who cannot think, barely feels, and cannot actualize any individual motivation.

The old show had so many funny and charming character moments. It was so quotable. Season 3 has no fish in the percolators.

The reason the new show is leaving me cold and disappointed constantly is because there is no heart to it anymore. It is completely devoid of emotion. There are rare scenes with Albert and Gordon, or Gordon and Denise, but everything else is pure surface-level fuckery based on the lore and no characters.

When every single character you meet is presented as an enigmatic question mark, you can't feel compassion and interest in them. They become set pieces and props for a cosmic mystery. We are regularly meeting people we've never met before and then saying goodbye. Because they don't matter. Only the faceless space demon matters.

I was on board for all manner of twisted ambiguity. I was not on board for an eighteen hour movie with no protagonist.

People laughed, but for me, the best scene of the show is when Bobby sees Laura's picture and cries. Because I know Bobby. I know what he's been through and how Laura affected him. I know why it hurts him and how it takes him back to a person he isn't anymore. We meet Bobby grown up, but that scene makes him a teenager again and it's really sad. Laura Palmer casts a long shadow.

Bizarre trips through the atom bomb, scenes totally detached from character and location, do not make me happy the show came back.

I am trying not to jump the gun. There's still a lot of show left. We'll see how it comes together. But right now, I am perpetually disappointed. No more buddy drama. No more silly side antics. No more love stories. No more character study. Just... something else.

Sure, the characters are important. But the characters are there--both literally as in the same literal characters, and also figuratively as in the same character-driven style of show.

But the show was also partially lore-driven. Are you telling me that you didn't want to find out what the White and Black Lodges were, and where BOB and the other spirits came from? Really? Because that's what the show just gave us. And yes, it was strange, and it might not make sense if you go through it with one eye closed or expecting character-driven drama, but if you look at it with just a little bit of a fantastical eye, it's perfectly logically consistent. For a moment, this show wasn't about the characters. It was the purest core that runs through all of Lynch's work: surrealist scenes like moving paintings, strung together to form a cohesive narrative (intentionally or not). It's what he does best, and he did it very well here. And at the same time, got to show us the literal birth of BOB, the Laura Palmer soul (which seems to be hugely important to the entire show including this season), and possibly the Black Lodge itself.

And as for who you keep calling "Dougie"...he's not Dougie. He's Cooper. He's Cooper, stripped entirely of identity, slowly, week-by-week regaining everything that makes him him. Dougie is dead and gone, and Cooper has passed through the Black Lodge...one way or another, this is what came out, and the steps to finding your identity again are hard and often tedious but in the process we get to find out what really makes Cooper tick. I want my special boy back as much as anyone else, but I love Coop's storyline this season. David Lynch knows what you want, and doesn't care, because his (and Frost's) authorship is more important than that.

Anyway. If you don't like it, you don't like it. But to say that it isn't Twin Peaks or isn't giving us what we want...I just can't agree with that. I wanted to know what the hell BOB and the Giant/????? and the Lodges were. Now, I might not know it all, but I know a hell of a lot more than I started with. So it's firing on all cylinders for me, and I just wish people would sit back and enjoy it and see it in that way instead of trying to force the framework of old TP onto what it is today.
 

Slaythe

Member
Bobby's impulsive crying over Laura Palmer's picture with the blatantly recycled, emotionally nostalgic, familiar compositions and emphasis on over full framed face dramatic emotional outbursts was hilarious. It was like an overt conscious expression of the kitschy satire of the original series and its utter absurdity in modern framework and Season 3's storytelling.

I loved it but it just seemed like such a deliberate, cheeky prod in the guts to "old fans", borderlining on comfortable mockery.

By "old fans", you mean the ones that deserted the show and left it to die and get cancelled, or the ones that "hated" Fire Walk With me ?

Yeah I think Lynch is perfectly fine with how season 3 is unfolding.
 
Even as a fan of slow burn character studies like Drive Once Upon a Time in the West, and Uncle John, I have a hard time appreciating Dougie as anything meaningful. I don't presently agree with your assertion.

I think my main issue with the Dougie stuff is that it's gone on way too long. As for your other comment I partially agree with you on characters. The only "new" character I feel like we've learned anything about is Diane . Other than that the show has only built on existing characters. While that's all definitely a bummer I've still been loving the show.

People are probably going to hate me saying this but I feel like thus far the new season has more in common with Fire Walk With Me than the original show. Obviously the cinematography and audio design is more like the film but much like how the film was very much about Laura Palmer's last days this season is very much about Cooper. I feel like everything we've seen so far will eventually converge on the Cooper story even though it's not obvious how. This new season is even like the film in that it's much weirder than the original show and also much darker (though not as dark as the film).
 

Dusk Golem

A 21st Century Rockefeller
Also I think someone teased me on Twitter. This is random, but I posted on Twitter 30 minutes before the episode I was excited for the new episode and getting ready to watch live, and before the new episode aired someone just tweeted at me, "Gotta' light?" I just thought it was some weird spam thing or something when I saw it before watching.

I only just remembered this now reading my Twitter feed. WHY DID HE TWEET ME THIS BEFORE THE NEW EPISODE WAS AVAILABLE? TELL ME YOUR SEEECCCRREEETTSSS.
Actually don't tell me, I want to keep this season a surprise for myself. Loving how blind each episode is.
 

hoserx

Member
Also I think someone teased me on Twitter. This is random, but I posted on Twitter 30 minutes before the episode I was excited for the new episode and getting ready to watch live, and before the new episode aired someone just tweeted at me, "Gotta' light?" I just thought it was some weird spam thing or something when I saw it before watching.

I only just remembered this now reading my Twitter feed. WHY DID HE TWEET ME THIS BEFORE THE NEW EPISODE WAS AVAILABLE? TELL ME YOUR SEEECCCRREEETTSSS.
Actually don't tell me, I want to keep this season a surprise for myself. Loving how blind each episode is.

The titles of the episodes are available already.
 

Dusk Golem

A 21st Century Rockefeller
The titles of the episodes are available already.

RIGHT, that was the episode name. I FORGOT. That explains that. Mystery solved.

(actually, I wonder if we'll get the episode titles for Parts 9-12 soon, I forgot all about the episode titles since they're titled just Part X basically everywhere.)
 
By "old fans", you mean the ones that deserted the show and left it to die and get cancelled, or the ones that "hated" Fire Walk With me ?

Yeah I think Lynch is perfectly fine with how season 3 is unfolding.

Old Fans is such a weird and indefinable term for a show like this. After all, fans of the show when it originally aired abandoned it pretty quickly. It went from peak television (no pun intended) to extremely unfashionable. So much so that some of the actors didn't want to reprise their roles or perform similarly in other projects. People wanted to get away from it pretty bad.

But Old Fans also encompasses the people who discovered the show thanks to Netflix and retrospectives on film sites like Badass Digest. I have watched Twin Peaks five times since I first watched it in 2011. Before Season 3 was announced, I would have been considered a New Fan of Twin Peaks. Now I'm an Old Fan!

What is quickly happening is that we are enforcing a dichotomy between "old fans" and "people who are really happy with season three." These two things are not mutually exclusive and I think we should be careful with calling the halves of the audience as such. After all, I'm pretty sure most fans of the new show are here because they are fans of the old show.

Because of how spread-out and indeterminable the Twin Peaks audience actually is (do they love or hate FWWM? Who knows), David Lynch has no obligation to any of them. He has been very vocal since before FWWM that Twin Peaks is his story that he is extremely interested in exploring. That's what he's doing, for better or for worse.
 

PizzaFace

Banned
RIGHT, that was the episode name. I FORGOT. That explains that. Mystery solved.

(actually, I wonder if we'll get the episode titles for Parts 9-12 soon, I forgot all about the episode titles since they're titled just Part X basically everywhere.)

We have them:

This is the chair
Laura is the one
There is fire where you are going
Let's rock

And my god, they get me hyped
 

Zach

Member
I don't think those of us who like it, should act like we are better than those who don't. I feel sorry for them personally because they waited so long like the rest of us.
I don't feel better than at all. I just don't understand why they keep watching and crying in my coffee.
 

PolishQ

Member
Theory time.

What if the bug frog ISN'T Bob?

What if the young couple is Garland and Betty Briggs? They live near a military base, after all.

What if Hastings' secretary Betty is Betty Briggs? What if she has "coordinates" because of her experiences in 1956? What if they're coordinates to the location where the bug frog hatched?

What if Evil Coop's playing card symbol is meant to represent the bug frog's head?
 

Dusk Golem

A 21st Century Rockefeller
We have them:

This is the chair
Laura is the one
There is fire where you are going
Let's rock

And my god, they get me hyped

Okay, yeah those are some hype-worthy episode titles. Every episode title so far has been very important to the episode, always a line of dialogue said in the episode that's important to what happens in it.

Part 1: My log has a message for you. (obviously said by the Log Lady and it gets into motion Hawk looking into Cooper, and signifies something is occurring now 25 years later)

Part 2: The stars turn and a time presents itself. (also said by the Log Lady, and this comes to actual play as Cooper literally falls through space and time later in the episode)

Part 3: Call for help. (Yuuuuup, it's Dougie~)

Part 4: ...brings back some memories. (said by Bobby, and I would say Part 4 is the first episode that really focuses on some nostalgia as we see the sheriff's station and more of Albert and Cole, plus plays in the noteworthy Laura picture with music scene.)

Part 5: Case files. (said by both the boss and Dougie, it's the assignment Dougie is given to prove his worth at the company. Dougie's scenes at work are a big part of the episode, and I would also say 'worth' in general is a big part of episode 5, from Shelly giving Becky money because she's her daughter an she values her to Richard's compensation and devaluation of women to even things like the Sherrif's wife scene, but maybe I'm reading too deep into it.)

Part 6: Don't die. (said by Mike in the Lodge to Cooper, and this episode features some brutal deaths in it from the kid to the Ike Spike murder spree.)

Part 7: There's a body all right. (said by the detective about Brigg's body, which fits int figuring out the body's identity for good but also I think clues a bit more into the fact this episode is more typical narrative, as a body has deep association in Twin Peaks and the original series.)

Part 8: Gotta light? (obviously important in the newest episode with the Woodsman).


---


So with the context of all of those, Parts 9-12 titles do sound incredibly promising.
 

Reckoner

Member
Bobby's impulsive crying over Laura Palmer's picture with the blatantly recycled, emotionally nostalgic, familiar compositions and emphasis on over full framed face dramatic emotional outbursts was hilarious. It was like an overt conscious expression of the kitschy satire of the original series and its utter absurdity in modern framework and Season 3's storytelling.

I loved it but it just seemed like such a deliberate, cheeky prod in the guts to "old fans", borderlining on comfortable mockery.

It's funny how you think that every throwback is a punch in the face of the old fans.

Actually, one of the things I liked the most was the soap opera feel, overly dramatic and satirical emotional component of the old run. And that helped mold what Twin Peaks means.

So yeah

Comparing this to Eraserhead is borderline insulting. One is genius, the other is a heavy handed presentation of a straight line. I loved Inland Empire and I should probably give the benefit of doubt to Lynch. I can't believe he fell off this hard on such a short time frame. Let's hope Mike Frost put him in place or at least this is setting up for something indeed wonderful and strange.
 
I'm not one to overly speculate, but are we really sure that's Laura? Maddie existing could suggest that this isn't necessarily just one person...
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
It's funny how you think that every throwback is a punch in the face of the old fans.

Actually, one of the things I liked the most was the soap opera feel, overly dramatic and satirical emotional component of the old run. And that helped mold what Twin Peaks means.

So yeah

Comparing this to Eraserhead is borderline insulting. One is genius, the other is a heavy handed presentation of a straight line.

I don't think every throwback is a punch in the face of old fans. Season 3 is still routinely soapy and overdramatic in its own ways that still to me feel distictly Twin Peaks.

It sucks you guys aren't enjoying it as much as me and I'd hate to feel the same way. But I'm not going to pretend I'm reading compelling augments as to why I should feel otherwise.
 

Reckoner

Member
I don't think every throwback is a punch in the face of old fans. Season 3 is still routinely soapy and overdramatic in its own ways that still to me feel distictly Twin Peaks.

It sucks you guys aren't enjoying it as much as me and I'd hate to feel the same way. But I'm not going to pretend I'm reading compelling augments as to why I should feel otherwise.

I was advocating about this run having a different tone, as Twin Peaks benefited from the time it originally aired and trying to emulate it nowadays could take things completely off the rails. This was the one episode that felt insulting to me.

Felt like a cheap fanfic that is going out of the way to explain things that should be left alone. It's mainly nostalgic, but I don't want the woods mystery to be ruined by some world scale atomic bomb thing, for as much as it may be headed to a good message, for example. It's not the enigmatic David Lynch I know and love either.
 

Addi

Member
I found much of this episode too dark - not in context but as in too dark to see what was going on. During the scene with a man walking out of the desert, I thought the silhouette was Jefferies because it looked a bit Bowie.

Not sure how Lynch is going to ret-con Bowie-Jefferies into the villain he appears to be in this show though.

Yeah, I actually didn't see the Bob face being taken out of Mr C because it was so dark. Read about it here and saw the screenshots.

I'm guessing Mr. C had control over Bob somehow, maybe using his powers for something different than what Bob was set out to do. We have seen him bend the rules before. Bob had to be liberated and now Mr. C probably wants him back. The hobos might be some sort of protectors of Bob. The fake Jeffries Mr. C talked to (who had a similar voice as the woodsman) mentions that Mr. C had visited Major Briggs, maybe that's why we saw some hobos in the vicinity of that investigation. Major Briggs is probably a pretty important key. Though nothing is clear, it feels like the pieces of the puzzle are coming together.
 
That's true, but people are allowed to like or dislike something, too. I have liked every episode so far, with the mild exception of this one which I found a little boring. The symbolism of what is happening - pure good vs pure evil, and Laura Palmer being put into that battle in a very explicit way as a golden soul sent to Earth in response to an outbreak of evil - is just kind of silly to me, and reduces the mystery of the show. I liked it better when you didn't quite know what these forces that were influencing things were. I guess you still don't but now we have this information on what they look like, where they live, and when they started bleeding into the world. In this way, it's not much different from the supernatural mythology of any other genre show, it's just delivered in a very obtuse and slow-paced way.

At the end of the episode when the hobo walked off into the dark, and you heard the sounds of the horse from the poem, and you had seen his eyes turn white, I just thought 'huh. That's...it?'. Just left me a bit cold. I liked some of the visuals but I also know David Lynch enough to know that a lot of the time, this stuff is only what you make of it. I didn't make much of it.

If this had been it's own separate movie, my reaction would be a bit different. I wouldn't have expected more so at the end I wouldn't have been disappointed, but at the end of this episode I gotta say I was a bit disappointed that this is all I got this week, since now we need to wait two. I actually like the story that is currently going on and all of the characters, new and old, and I am curious to know more about how they fit in to all of this, and what they're gonna do next. A dry origin story of the evil isn't something I relished in watching for 50 minutes, really.

I never said they can't dislike it. I'm encouraging for people to hate a piece of art. It helps them cultivate personal standards. I get pacing issues people have. I completely understand someone not wanting to sit through an abstract series of images. Or even if they think the abstract images are poorly done. Good express yourself. Then go and make the art you want to see. That's a wonderful benefit of disagreeable art. It inspires just as much as agreeable art.

The problem is fans claiming ownership of art and demanding it be created a certain way and denying that the art being created is genuine. It's just really shitty and ungrateful. Your choice is to like or dislike not to deny its sincerity.

When Twin Peaks was created there were no fans. Imagine if it was presented to people and they hated the acting and Lynch/Frost was forced to reshoot scenes. We already know what Twin Peaks is like when L/F's hand is forced. They lose interest, the vision is compromised, and it connects with no one.

My concern as I get older is not if I like a piece of art or not. There is so much art out there that I know I will find something I can fall in sync with. But the only way that will happen is if artists are allowed to be genuine.
 

hydruxo

Member
hugocésar;241841982 said:
Completely adored it. (Strucurely, I liked where the NIN concert fit in, but I almost pressed fast forward on my remote as I don't care for the band.)

I like NIN but I even skipped ahead lol. Wasn't feeling that performance tbh.
 
I don't feel better than at all. I just don't understand why they keep watching and crying in my coffee.

And what you are doing is better? At least they are explaining why they're not liking this new season. All you do is:

Good news, everyone. The people who are not enjoying the show are going to keep watching for some inexplicable reason. So look forward to more complaining about it not being this or that.

He's right, you know?

Bunch of entitled wieners. :D

I bet we got some cranky, broken bastards in here! Haha...

And:

There's only two kinds of people left at this point. The hardcore fans who are loving every minute and those who are waiting to see if it changes.

The marginal people have moved on.

I haven't loved every minute and don't want it to change. Whoops.

Nice contribution to the thread.
 
I also want to mention that there is a difference between wishing something was a certain way and demanding something is a certain way.

I wish Twin Peaks was more like the original show, but I do not demand it of Lynch. I am glad he can create and explore whatever he wants to do, with or without me. I am not mad at David Lynch or Mark Frost and I don't think the show is a disaster because it's not what I wanted it to be.

I am acutely aware that art, on creation, belongs to the artist and not the audience. This is the difference between a creative product and a commercial one. My complaints and criticisms are because I am part of the reactive audience, not because season three "ruined my childhood," so to speak.

Please don't read a "HOW DARE HE" tone in people's reactions to the show. I am sure a lot of us here, even the critics, still respect the vision of the creator and the opportunity he was given to make what he wanted to make.
 

Joqu

Member
I was advocating about this run having a different tone, as Twin Peaks benefited from the time it originally aired and trying to emulate it nowadays could take things completely off the rails. This was the one episode that felt insulting to me.

Felt like a cheap fanfic that is going out of the way to explain things that should be left alone. It's mainly nostalgic, but I don't want the woods mystery to be ruined by some world scale atomic bomb thing, for as much as it may be headed to a good message. It's not the enigmatic David Lynch I know and love either.

The ''explanation'' felt a lot like Mark Frost writing to me, so I find it curious you'd direct this complaint to David Lynch alone. I still can't relate to your mystery complaints mind you, the woods Lodge business dates back to native american mythos in this show so it I don't feel like this ruined any such mystery in the slightest.
 

Zoe

Member
Part 5: Case files. (said by both the boss and Dougie, it's the assignment Dougie is given to prove his worth at the company. Dougie's scenes at work are a big part of the episode, and I would also say 'worth' in general is a big part of episode 5, from Shelly giving Becky money because she's her daughter an she values her to Richard's compensation and devaluation of women to even things like the Sherrif's wife scene, but maybe I'm reading too deep into it.)

This is specifically Dougie's line according to the promo that aired after the episode. Each promo has the respective line in it.
 

HoJu

Member
I don't really know how you can call this episode heavy handed but Eraserhead not???having just recentlt watched Eraserhead for the first time, the form is similar and themes are also heavyhanded... still great though

Is it more disappointment because this episode explained the weirdness from the series which had more power as a mystery? Which I understand and would agree with if this episode wasn't done so brilliantly
 
What the shit was that?

NiN was good but I really struggled to watch 45 minutes of abstract images.

For those of you that somehow understand what all that meant, how? Are you just watching it, knowing what the hell it was or are you reading some breakdown on reddit?

I'll keep watching I guess, but that was a slog.
 
Has it ever been explained how the lodges came to be? And know that we've had a look into the white lodge, is there any speculation as to what the US government was trying to get at? If I remember correctly, either Major Briggs or Windom Earle inferred that it was for malevolent reasons.
 

Dusk Golem

A 21st Century Rockefeller
I don't think every throwback is a punch in the face of old fans. Season 3 is still routinely soapy and overdramatic in its own ways that still to me feel distictly Twin Peaks.

It sucks you guys aren't enjoying it as much as me and I'd hate to feel the same way. But I'm not going to pretend I'm reading compelling augments as to why I should feel otherwise.

I think that nails something on both sides of the fence. Like I find it interesting to read other viewpoints and I wish those not enjoying it were enjoying it more, but the thing is their complaints are things I don't really personally agree with as someone who is adoring the new season. I can understand their viewpoint and it's well expressed, but I don't feel the same way. And I think the same is probably true the opposite way from people not enjoying it to people enjoying it.

It's not really right or wrong to like or dislike it, but just differing viewpoints. I also think the series and especially this episode getting a visceral reaction out of people means it's doing its job right. Some people are in love and declaring this episode as one the greats of TV history already, while others are calling Lynch a hack and almost seem offended at what this episode was. But I think it speaks volumes that the episode can get this strong and varied a reaction out of people.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
My concern as I get older is not if I like a piece of art or not. There is so much art out there that I know I will find something I can fall in sync with. But the only way that will happen is if artists are allowed to be genuine.

Absolutely. I'm so glad that the Twin Peaks of 2017 is so much its own thing and not a nostalgia-driven lap-of-honor.

The worst aspect of modern fandom is the tendency to want to place every favorite thing in stasis. Change should be embraced; even if its in unexpected, unwanted directions. Maybe the new iteration is not to your liking, if so, you still have the original.
 
Is it more disappointment because this episode explained the weirdness from the series which had more power as a mystery?

This is one of my criticisms.

The original mystique of the Black Lodge and its stewards was that it was local and unknowable. Harry tells Coop that there is something out there in the woods, and its the price they pay for all the good parts of living there, and that generations of men from the town have guarded its inhabitants from this frightening and corrupting force that leeches from the trees.

This distinct sense of location, that something haunts the surrounding woods of Twin Peaks specifically, was something I was really attached to. It was something built on local legend, influenced by the geography, and defined what made the town of Twin Peaks so mysterious and strange. It made it feel like something could be lurking in the caves, or the cabins, or the wildlife, or the trees of the landscape. Twin Peaks, as a town, was a haunted house.

The new episode removes the importance of Twin Peaks in favor of a dimension that exists independently from it. An ignition point for the whole story was a nuclear bomb test in New Mexico in 1945. This is pretty different from a strange and otherworldly presence specifically among the Douglas Firs. It used to feel like the town Twin Peaks was hiding something, now the whole thing is so much bigger than Twin Peaks that the town doesn't seem to really matter. It's a blip on the fabric of space-time.

And even if they come back and explain that Twin Peaks is some sort of grand portal or nexus, the damage is done. The Black Lodge and its lore used to be part of the town. It was something out there and in the woods. Now the town is part of the Lodge. Now there is a monstrous and faceless creator laying eggs in the desert in 1945. The energy is all over the world and unleashed at a specific point in time.

The previous confines of the lodges and the alternate dimension were much more intimate and claustrophobic. They were cracks in the town you could slip in and out of that had been both guarded and exploited by entities for an unknown span of time.


The new lore is still interesting. But it can be a tough pill to swallow. It can be defeating to have your closely-held understandings unwound. There is some merit to challenging preconceived notions, but you have to be willing to let it all go. I'm still working on that,
 
This episode did nothing to change what I felt a few weeks ago: This season is not a nostalgia run, it's a deep dive into the extended fallout of the Laura Palmer case (LITERAL nuclear fallout in this episode), and why it was important. Unless DoppleCoop getting shot + resurrected marks a turn for Cooper, I don't think the people pining for 90s Twin Peaks will find much satisfaction here until the tail end of the season, especially from the old cast because they really don't have much to do. This is primarily dealing with Cooper's arduous road back from being in the Lodge for 25 years while DoppleCoop planted seeds to disrupt his RETURN, and why BOB essentially winning in the original series was a big deal. It wasn't just a murder case, it was cosmic evil preying on and corrupting the cosmic good created in response to it. So while Episode 8 was a strange one and very disconnected from what old Twin Peaks was tonally, it also filled in a big piece of why this whole crazy journey has taken place at all.
 
The last 45 of this week's episode was uncomfortable, loud, disturbing, and grotesque and I really, really enjoyed it.

I have no idea if it's Twin Peaks, but, it was still cool.
 

guybrushfreeman

Unconfirmed Member
What the shit was that?

NiN was good but I really struggled to watch 45 minutes of abstract images.

For those of you that somehow understand what all that meant, how? Are you just watching it, knowing what the hell it was or are you reading some breakdown on reddit?

I'll keep watching I guess, but that was a slog.

I actually think Lynch gets a reputation for being weird but really it's just very visual storytelling. There is some ambiguity for sure but overall things aren't that hard to follow. One of the mistakes people make with this stuff is assuming it's impossible to understand and then not paying attention and I get that for sure. However, I think it's actually considerably less confusing than people assume it is (not you necessarily by the way, I'm speaking generally).

Of course that doesn't mean you should find it interesting or effective, that's totally up to you. However, from a storytelling perspective know that, in general, everything is easier to follow then it might appear to be.

I see the thread is going off the rails a bit in general. I wish I had had the time to post but my schedule is all over the place.

I am enjoying the new season very much. I also find it very amusing though that 25 years later Twin Peaks seems to suffer from it's serialised format.

25 years ago you can see the show stretch and warp trying to fit the story into it's week by week format. This time it's clear that each 'part' doesn't really make any effort to fit into a weekly schedule but it's still presented that way.

I think perhaps 4 episode drops would've been a better way for Showtime to present it. However, if people are finding the weekly format tiring I think waiting for everything to come out is a valid option and some people are likely to find more enjoyment out of it that way.
 
Is it more disappointment because this episode explained the weirdness from the series which had more power as a mystery?

This is the biggest issue to me. The episode basically boiled everything down to The Giant vs Babylon/The Mother in a very cliched manner that sucks the creepy factor out of every supernatural element of the story. I've been liking Season 3 overall, but this felt like an episode of Heroes more than something written by David Lynch.

Putting the faces of Laura and Bob into the orbs/eggs is what really killed it, I think. Lynch's weirdness is at it's best when it's purposefully vague and indecipherable, but here it's explicit what's happening in each scene, despite the bizarre presentation.

Lynch just re-contextualized everything that's happened the series and made it feel a whole lot more generic thematically.
 

Solo

Member
What a hilarious shift it'll be when Episode 9 opens with Dougie becoming a local celebrity for thwarting attempted murder.

I don't understand the people say this isn't like old Peaks. This couldn't be more Twin Peaks. To go from the absurdist, near slapstick comedy and levity of Dougie, to the profound sadness of seeing Cooper in that state, to the absolute mindfuck and terror that we witnessed last night, and back around to Dougie again. Comedy, horror, subversion.

That's Twin Peaks.
 

gun_haver

Member
This is one of my criticisms.

The original mystique of the Black Lodge and its stewards was that it was local and unknowable. Harry tells Coop that there is something out there in the woods, and its the price they pay for all the good parts of living there, and that generations of men from the town have guarded its inhabitants from this frightening and corrupting force that leeches from the trees.

This distinct sense of location, that something haunts the surrounding woods of Twin Peaks specifically, was something I was really attached to. It was something built on local legend, influenced by the geography, and defined what made the town of Twin Peaks so mysterious and strange. It made it feel like something could be lurking in the caves, or the cabins, or the wildlife, or the trees of the landscape. Twin Peaks, as a town, was a haunted house.

The new episode removes the importance of Twin Peaks in favor of a dimension that exists independently from it. An ignition point for the whole story was a nuclear bomb test in New Mexico in 1945. This is pretty different from a strange and otherworldly presence specifically among the Douglas Firs. It used to feel like the town Twin Peaks was hiding something, now the whole thing is so much bigger than Twin Peaks that the town doesn't seem to really matter. It's a blip on the fabric of space-time.

And even if they come back and explain that Twin Peaks is some sort of grand portal or nexus, the damage is done. The Black Lodge and its lore used to be part of the town. It was something out there and in the woods. Now the town is part of the Lodge. Now there is a monstrous and faceless creator laying eggs in the desert in 1945. The energy is all over the world and unleashed at a specific point in time.

The previous confines of the lodges and the alternate dimension were much more intimate and claustrophobic. They were cracks in the town you could slip in and out of that had been both guarded and exploited by entities for an unknown span of time.


The new lore is still interesting. But it can be a tough pill to swallow. It can be defeating to have your closely-held understandings unwound. There is some merit to challenging preconceived notions, but you have to be willing to let it all go. I'm still working on that,

Yeah this is basically why I didn't like this episode. The 'Lodges' really belonged in the background as mysterious places and sources of forces that were influencing people and events. But if they had to show them, that's okay, but I would've kept it for the end. Also, like you say, the scope of the lore has absolutely exploded to the entire continent of North America involves nuclear tests now. It's really not the same thing as Harry described back at the start, like you mentioned. Sure he could've been wrong, but that in itself was a cool situation with a lot left to explore, imo, and this big cosmic battle of lodges where Laura Palmer is Jesus doesn't really have the same feel to it for me.
 
- The White Lodge/"birth" of Laura scene is the most hauntingly beautiful sequence I've seen on television in a long time.

I found Laura's shiny head bauble funny. guess it's the "cryin' Bobby" scene all over again.

What if the young couple is Garland and Betty Briggs? They live near a military base, after all.

The boy was Hispanic, so I doubt it's the good Major.

The original mystique of the Black Lodge and its stewards was that it was local and unknowable. Harry tells Coop that there is something out there in the woods, and its the price they pay for all the good parts of living there, and that generations of men from the town have guarded its inhabitants from this frightening and corrupting force that leeches from the trees.

This distinct sense of location, that something haunts the surrounding woods of Twin Peaks specifically, was something I was really attached to. It was something built on local legend, influenced by the geography, and defined what made the town of Twin Peaks so mysterious and strange. It made it feel like something could be lurking in the caves, or the cabins, or the wildlife, or the trees of the landscape. Twin Peaks, as a town, was a haunted house.

The new episode removes the importance of Twin Peaks in favor of a dimension that exists independently from it. An ignition point for the whole story was a nuclear bomb test in New Mexico in 1945. This is pretty different from a strange and otherworldly presence specifically among the Douglas Firs. It used to feel like the town Twin Peaks was hiding something, now the whole thing is so much bigger than Twin Peaks that the town doesn't seem to really matter. It's a blip on the fabric of space-time.

I think that was always alluded to in the original run, what with the likes of Major Briggs and the military being involed and the FBI's "Blue Rose" stuff, but I get what you mean. My guess is that the locals just came up with a an explanation for the bad ju-ju that became legend after a while, completely unaware that they were just a part of a larger puzzle... but I do miss the creepy Northwestern town vibe. The country wide story of Twin Peaks: the Road Trip doesn't have the same feel.
 

Dusk Golem

A 21st Century Rockefeller
For anyone worried about the mystery being gone, I wouldn't worry too much. If this were a Lynch film in normal length (as in, if somehow all of the events were happening but these 18 hours were condensed into 2-3 hours), this episode takes place around the time things seem to be falling into place before things are pushed further into the murkiness with a new layer. Something Lynch and Frost do well is multi-layered stories. While some of the answers in this episode were long standing mysteries from the show's origin (though I would argue some people are reading specific things too literally and things may not be as clearcut as they first appear, I see some people convinced they know 100% what happened in this episode but I actually think there's multiple possibilities to a lot of the things seen and I don't think the obvious answer is going to be the true one with everything that happened in this episode), there's been a lot of new mysteries being slowly raised in the background of this season and I suspect there's another few 'layers' to all of this.

Think of Eraserhead, or Mulholland Drive, or Lost Highway, or Inland Empire, or hell even the original Twin Peaks series. In all of these there comes a point where we seem to get some explaining at what's going on before a curveball that completely changes things. I think this episode being in the first half of this season and not the second half (we're not half-way done with the season quite yet) is no coincidence. I also think no one would disagree that Lynch endings usually end up raising a LOT of questions and often adds further depth to things that came before. It's true of almost every single one of his movies and the original Twin Peaks. I think this season is going to have one hell of an ending and I don't think even for a second the mystery is gone (though I also think some people are taking some things too literally and not questioning if all they think was revealed in this episode was actually revealed and if they're not just forming conclusions themselves and taking their self-formed conclusions as fact.)
 
This is one of my criticisms.

The original mystique of the Black Lodge and its stewards was that it was local and unknowable. Harry tells Coop that there is something out there in the woods, and its the price they pay for all the good parts of living there, and that generations of men from the town have guarded its inhabitants from this frightening and corrupting force that leeches from the trees.

This distinct sense of location, that something haunts the surrounding woods of Twin Peaks specifically, was something I was really attached to. It was something built on local legend, influenced by the geography, and defined what made the town of Twin Peaks so mysterious and strange. It made it feel like something could be lurking in the caves, or the cabins, or the wildlife, or the trees of the landscape. Twin Peaks, as a town, was a haunted house.

The new episode removes the importance of Twin Peaks in favor of a dimension that exists independently from it. An ignition point for the whole story was a nuclear bomb test in New Mexico in 1945. This is pretty different from a strange and otherworldly presence specifically among the Douglas Firs. It used to feel like the town Twin Peaks was hiding something, now the whole thing is so much bigger than Twin Peaks that the town doesn't seem to really matter. It's a blip on the fabric of space-time.

And even if they come back and explain that Twin Peaks is some sort of grand portal or nexus, the damage is done. The Black Lodge and its lore used to be part of the town. It was something out there and in the woods. Now the town is part of the Lodge. Now there is a monstrous and faceless creator laying eggs in the desert in 1945. The energy is all over the world and unleashed at a specific point in time.

The previous confines of the lodges and the alternate dimension were much more intimate and claustrophobic. They were cracks in the town you could slip in and out of that had been both guarded and exploited by entities for an unknown span of time.


The new lore is still interesting. But it can be a tough pill to swallow. It can be defeating to have your closely-held understandings unwound. There is some merit to challenging preconceived notions, but you have to be willing to let it all go. I'm still working on that,


Yeah this episode for me was basically the architect speech from the matrix reloaded.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom