Lynch has always almost exclusively casted white people and made his stuff about white people. He's obsessed with mid-Century suburban America and Hollywood. It's just what he does. He's got a bit of a pathology, he's intensely focused on a set of ideas and just ruminates on them in everything he does. It's part of the reason why people love him so much, but it's completely fair to point this out.
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Twin Peaks Season 3 OT |25 Years Later...It Is Happening Again
- Thread starter Sumio Mondo
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Lynch has always almost exclusively casted white people and made his stuff about white people. He's obsessed with mid-Century suburban America and Hollywood. It's just what he does. He's got a bit of a pathology, he's intensely focused on a set of ideas and just ruminates on them in everything he does. It's part of the reason why people love him so much, but it's completely fair to point this out.
plagiarize
Banned
Seven returning cast members if you count the Lone Gunmen... or am I forgetting others?
Finale Fireworker
Member
plagiarize
Banned
Not that I think you can ignore Jade's career, and not that you should either, but she remains one of the most down to earth and human characters in the show. So I think it's overly reductive to reduce her to her profession...
But it's still a fair point to raise. There's no reason why Buckhorn PD couldn't be way more multicultural, for example.
Edit: And I wasn't trying to say that Twin Peaks is the most returning cast ever, even though no one has yet to prove otherwise. I was just trying to point out that so much of the original cast has carried over to this one, so it's perfectly sensible to call it Twin Peaks.
VistraNorrez
Member
I agree with criticism that Lynch does not represent minorities well. A few decent characters here and there doesn't cut it.
It takes away a bit of the pure mystery of it all, and I think too early. I wouldn't have minded this stuff as much if it came at a time when it felt like it was necessary to know, right now we're kind of in the middle of a lot of different things and we just took this detour to show us the genesis of the mystery.
My point isn't that I hated the episode, cos I didn't, but it was a very focused episode on something that I didn't really feel it necessary to see. It doesn't change what any of the characters are doing, it really just says 'previously it seemed like this mystery was centered around dark forces that come from the woods of twin peaks, and bob and other dark beings. well, actually it started with a nuclear detonation in 1945 and these dark beings were born from another dark being that exists in another dimension.'.
That's...fine, but I don't really care?
as is the idea that it should be exempt from criticism on the grounds of it being art. what the fuck?
This break is a good opportunity to revisit the Secret History book, which is becoming more and more relevant. Some tidbits I just found from skimming through it again:
- Dougie Milford was at White Sands in 1945 at the time of the bomb test, working with the Manhattan Project.
- He interviews Jack Parsons in 1949 in Pasadena, and they have this interesting exchange regarding a ritual Jack performed:
- A little later there's also some information about a SECOND ritual designed to bring forth the "Moonchild", and this ritual seemingly results in the Roswell "UFO" crash in 1947.
My guess right now is that the "Moonchild" refers to Laura's golden orb, and the Roswell crash was the result of the orb arriving on earth.
The "Journey of the Dead Man" stuff reminds me of the woodsmen, "shuffling along."
HMMMMM
- Dougie Milford was at White Sands in 1945 at the time of the bomb test, working with the Manhattan Project.
- He interviews Jack Parsons in 1949 in Pasadena, and they have this interesting exchange regarding a ritual Jack performed:
- A little later there's also some information about a SECOND ritual designed to bring forth the "Moonchild", and this ritual seemingly results in the Roswell "UFO" crash in 1947.
My guess right now is that the "Moonchild" refers to Laura's golden orb, and the Roswell crash was the result of the orb arriving on earth.
The "Journey of the Dead Man" stuff reminds me of the woodsmen, "shuffling along."
HMMMMM
VistraNorrez
Member
Read my other posts.
There is a difference between saying I don't like the pacing and requiring the show to be a certain thing.
The Elite
BOSS
Think it's time I buy the Secret History.
Precisely.
The mystery of the black lodge, Bob, TLMFAP- Not once in the last 22 years of being a fan of this show did I ever think "I really need a precise mechanical explanation for how Bob and the Lodge were both birthed into existence."
If, and this is a big if, that is in fact what we actually saw last night.
If not, then it's just fucking weird to be fucking weird. I enjoyed the subtle undercurrent of weird in seasons 1&2, and especially in FWWM.
I am not enjoying this level of abstraction in Season 3, at all.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Between Cooper and Laura, Twin Peaks is the nexus that saves the world from evil lol
What could possibly be more essential than that?
plagiarize
Banned
Leland didn't meet Bob in Twin Peaks. Philip Gerard wasn't from Twin Peaks either.
And that's all stuff from the TV show, not even tapping into FWWM. The entrance to the lodge? Definitely near Twin Peaks.
But there are other places, and other things. Bob to me never felt tied to Twin Peaks in the same way that IT seemed tied to Derry and it's history.
Oh for sure, weird things have always happened in those woods as Sheriff Truman lays out, but then Sheriff Truman has never seen or heard of anything like Bob before.
But then Lynch wouldn't have gotten that budget. It almost feels like a Mad Max Fury Road situation, except where Miller is more of crowd-pleaser, Lynch is testing his audience, which mixed results imo.
For me, I think you might have been able to get away with this eariler in the season. It would have framed this story better and people would understand the stakes. You would now understand that the relationship with these towns and nuclear testing and maybe they help open places to the Black Lodge. You might then even forgive the fact that Twin Peaks isn't on the show much because of the fact that this episode would make you realize the situation is more dire than weird stuff happening in the woods. Instead, Lynch just rushed to this point, when people are starting to expect the present storylines to begin converging. And quite frankly, while it's admirable, it's starting to go down the line of 'Am I watching Drive or am I watching Only God Forgives?'
VistraNorrez
Member
And not once in my life did I think I needed a show like Twin Peaks until I saw it. Now I can't imagine life without it.
Art isn't always about finding something to fill a hole you know about. Often it's there to fill a hole you didn't even know existed.
There is more to Part 8 than just the history and mythology. I never knew I wanted to see Lynch's rendition of a nuclear explosion. It might just be my favorite thing ever.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
Lynch isn't good with minorities, I take it more because he has a certain obsession with early Hollywood and stuff from the 1950s, but one can certainly criticize him for it. The only two black characters in this season is Jade and Major Davis (Davis is the military guy who we have seen in 2-3 scenes in the series so far calling and talking to other people, last seen last episode actually when they identify it was Brigg's body).
Lynch I think is actually very insensitive and ignorant to some things, I don't think it comes from a place of maliciousness, contempt, hatred, etc., but I think he does deserve critique over some things you begin to notice when you look at his work as a whole and has been very apparent in this new season. There have been some people slightly noting some things, especially with this new season some of Lynch's treatment of different body types and what he seems to align and take body with for his characters, IE people with dwarfism, The Giant in itself, people with deformities, how Lynch treats women and men in his work, how Lynch has most of the cast white, etc. Lynch does this thing where for many, myself included, it's sometimes gets right on the edge of being possibly acceptable, but there's still some uncomfortable feelings about it. Most who work with him love him and I truly believe there's no ill-intent, but I think it has to do with his creative process which unfortunately reflects that he may have some prejudices even if he means no harm with them.
friskykillface
Banned
Giving Lynch a blank check was worth it
My mind has been blown this season
First 2 episodes or until Cooper escapes were the highlights
Dougie hype
This episode was all over the place, would have been better if they saved Booper waking up for the start of episode 9
10 to go
My mind has been blown this season
First 2 episodes or until Cooper escapes were the highlights
Dougie hype
This episode was all over the place, would have been better if they saved Booper waking up for the start of episode 9
10 to go
rackham
Banned
So the black/white lodge have always existed right? It was just the bomb that brought the bug baby into our world.
Is Laura a manufactured human?
The red room is the middle ground between the black and white lodge? I feel like the white lodge is far removed from the red room, whereas the black lodge is right on top of it.
Is Laura a manufactured human?
The red room is the middle ground between the black and white lodge? I feel like the white lodge is far removed from the red room, whereas the black lodge is right on top of it.
Lynch grew up in white suburbia and almost never left a 3-block radius around his house throughout his childhood. I wouldn't be surprised if that left him with a deep-seated regard for any minority as "other". I don't know that he would really be able to put himself in a black character's shoes, for example. So some better representation would be nice, but I'm not expecting Lynch to have anything interesting to say about the minority experience.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
My interpretation is that the lodges have always existed, I mean The Giant witnesses the nuclear explosion and implies he existed before the explosion, so there's that. Also Twin Peaks is about two worlds, I don't think the other world was formed right then I think the implication is the Atom Bomb somehow began to connect our two worlds. This is just me going off what we have right now though.
The Red Curtain Place is the "Waiting Room", but many call it Black Lodge just because it's catchier and more symbolic. In reality we've never knowingly seen the Black Lodge as far as I know. I almost wonder if we'll see it towards the end of this season.
cucuchu
Member
A major plot point that I did not think would be resolved until the end of the season might of been resolved in part 8.
Mike appeared to "Dougie" Cooper and informs him that either he must die or BOB Cooper must die. This was reinforced the following episode and seemed to be a major driving force behind "Dougie" Cooper needing to wake up. Now that BOB Cooper is dead, what becomes of the real Cooper? Are the lumberjack entities going to assist BOB in finding another host? Does Mike know about the lumberjack entities that are assisting BOB? If so then why would he not devise some kind of safe-guard to ensure they were not capable of assisting BOB?
Everyone says this episode answered too much of the mystery behind the show but it sure did introduce more mystery in the process.
Mike appeared to "Dougie" Cooper and informs him that either he must die or BOB Cooper must die. This was reinforced the following episode and seemed to be a major driving force behind "Dougie" Cooper needing to wake up. Now that BOB Cooper is dead, what becomes of the real Cooper? Are the lumberjack entities going to assist BOB in finding another host? Does Mike know about the lumberjack entities that are assisting BOB? If so then why would he not devise some kind of safe-guard to ensure they were not capable of assisting BOB?
Everyone says this episode answered too much of the mystery behind the show but it sure did introduce more mystery in the process.
Good for you.
I don't share your enthusiasm or appreciation for Season 3, clearly. As a fan of "old" Twin Peaks, if you will, I couldn't care less about Lynch's 10 minute (or however long it was) rendition of a nuclear explosion after waiting 22 years to find out happened to Dale Cooper.
For me, Lynch has gone somewhere beyond my ability to appreciate, and I'm 100% okay with stating that outright. FWWM was my introduction to TP and I loved it so much I sought out the entire series on VHS and have watched and rewatched it from start to finish countless times. Mulholland Drive is one of my favorite films, ever.
But this, to me, is just masturbation. It's abstract for the sake of abstraction, and the fact that he chose to do this under the guise of a return to Twin Peaks fucking sucks, plain and simple. Just because it comes from the same brain(s) that the original did doesn't by default make it amazing and awesome, see re: The Phantom Menace.
I'm glad y'all are digging it, but I do wonder how many of you that think this was the "most amazing hour of TV ever" were huge fans of the original.
Finale Fireworker
Member
If Bad Cooper stayed dead, I would expect Good Dale to snap out of it in the next episode. But Bad Cooper sat up, clearly alive, just before the NIN concert.
I wonder if it's actually him or if it's Good Cooper swapping positions.
Don't forget Owl Cave, which points to the Lodges being around since Native American times. The Secret History book shows that the Nez Perce tribe had the Owl Cave ring in the early 1800s (and probably it had been in their care for generations before that).
By the way, I love how the name of the "Waiting Room" has been given a new layer of meaning, since Cooper literally had to wait there for 25 years.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
Also i just remember something we have not seen yet which people spotted them filming years ago when the new season began filming. Warning as for some reason I just randomly remembered this, and this includes not one, but two potential major spoilers.
I kind of wish I didn't remember that randomly just now as I had honestly completely forgotten and there's some serious implications with that.
I just recalled people seeing Kyle in a sheriff's costume in multiple early shootings for the new season, that certainly hasn't happened yet and might imply where the Dougie stuff is going. Also people mentioned when they were filming at the Palmer House, and while no one saw inside Kyle was there in the Sherrif's costume when filming this and people could hear lots of screaming.
I kind of wish I didn't remember that randomly just now as I had honestly completely forgotten and there's some serious implications with that.
if what we saw with the Giant and the woman was the White Lodge, i'm not sure i can handle Lynch's vision of what the Black Lodge would look like.
cucuchu
Member
Interesting, I didn't catch that he sat up. Was quite tired so I will rewatch it tonight. In that case then they still removed BOB.
I think I am anticipating part 9 more than I have anything else on TV before. It will be interesting to see the effects of all of this but 2 weeks is painful...
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Wonder no more. Twin Peaks was a formative (and terrifying) show for me when it first aired and last night's episode, which explained like EVERYTHING EVER, was a total masterpiece.
Corpsepyre
Banned
So....I guess this is where Showtime said 'Guys, we made a big mistake'.
EmptyCanO'wupass
Member
It looked like the shadow men took Bob out of bad coop. What if without bob now he's just a living husk, A SECOND DOUGIE.
friskykillface
Banned
We want Dougie
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Lynch told them what was needed. That's how we ended up with 18 episodes instead of 9. We'd only have one left under the original deal.
It's not like they were blindsided by the weirdness.
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
I actually wasn't trying to have a go at you or anything. I just thought it was interesting in context of the season. I feel like some of those elements are a part of the story here as well
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
There is some evidence that the Red Room is meant to be the Black Lodge:
In Part 2, Evil Coop says "I'm supposed to be pulled back into what they call the Black Lodge."
When the time comes, the red curtains appear and Dougie is pulled into the Red Room.
So, I'm leaning towards the "Waiting Room" being a PART of the Black Lodge.
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New topic: the season 3 score tracklisting has been updated with a new Badalamenti composition called "The Chair", which is presumably the piece we heard when the Giant was viewing the nuclear explosion in his theater. The tagline for the upcoming Part 9 is "This is the chair." Did we see a chair in that scene, or anything that could metaphorically be considered a chair??
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One more thing: have we talked about how the woodsman says "The horse is the white of the eye" and how that probably has something to do with the white horse seen by Sarah Palmer (and seen in the Black Lodge in part 2)?
Edit: Wasn't there also a horse's neigh at the end of Part 8 when the woodsman departs? Do the woodsmen use the white horse (horses?) as transportation?
In Part 2, Evil Coop says "I'm supposed to be pulled back into what they call the Black Lodge."
When the time comes, the red curtains appear and Dougie is pulled into the Red Room.
So, I'm leaning towards the "Waiting Room" being a PART of the Black Lodge.
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New topic: the season 3 score tracklisting has been updated with a new Badalamenti composition called "The Chair", which is presumably the piece we heard when the Giant was viewing the nuclear explosion in his theater. The tagline for the upcoming Part 9 is "This is the chair." Did we see a chair in that scene, or anything that could metaphorically be considered a chair??
----
One more thing: have we talked about how the woodsman says "The horse is the white of the eye" and how that probably has something to do with the white horse seen by Sarah Palmer (and seen in the Black Lodge in part 2)?
Edit: Wasn't there also a horse's neigh at the end of Part 8 when the woodsman departs? Do the woodsmen use the white horse (horses?) as transportation?
Finale Fireworker
Member
I know, just joking around. No worries at all.
The red room obviously ties into multiple dimension, like a nexus.
Laura went to heaven supposedly from there and Cooper fell into... whatever that was.
Actually that probably was the Black Lodge. It would explain why the "mother" was there.
I'm guessing it's still the doppelgänger, that Good coop has to do something to win over him. Would have been a bit disappointing if Bad Coop just ended like that, shot by a random thug without Good cooper having anything to do with it.
I've always looked at the red room as something in between the lodges, especially since the floor is black and white.
VistraNorrez
Member
I will not question your fan credentials. Please do not question mine.
Once again it's not about whether the thing is awesome or not. No one can guarantee they will make a piece of awesome art. But you definitely won't create something awesome if you ignore your instincts and follow someone else's. And that's not to say someone can't suggest ways to create art to someone else, but if you only take someone else's suggestions in spite of what your feelings are telling you, you will fuck things up.
Art is empowering because of its allowance to express whatever an artist wants. It's scary as hell to be that vulnerable but the greatest feeling when someone connects to it.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
I think of it like the entrance to the Black Lodge, but not like the depths of the Black Lodge itself. I am curious if we'll see deeper into that before the season is up.
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Oh my at that new topic, just checked right now and no literally the whole theater is barren. You see the whole room a couple times, no chair.
What if that black machine is the chair though? Weird thought I know, but it's the only thing in the room outside of the screen and the Tuba-looking machine above them.
For clarification, this is the clearest shot we get of the theater front (not the back which we see is barren in two shots earlier).
Maybe the whole structure on the rocky outcropping is The Chair?
Edit: Or maybe the Giant is "The Chair", as in "chairperson"...
John Dunbar
correct about everything
i was hopeful for a second when bad coop got shot, but almost instantly figured he wasn't going to go down like that.
i enjoyed the bug crawling into that girl's mouth. that is my fetish.
i enjoyed the bug crawling into that girl's mouth. that is my fetish.
31GhostsIV
Banned
I was complaining about product placement.
You can't really do a 'Dave's Greatest Hits' TV show and not include NIN in some capacity. They worked together on the Lost Highway soundtrack and Lynch directed a recent video (and nearly directed one for an early single back when OG Peaks was on TV).
I took at to signify the end of this week's 'standard' episode before the mini-movie that took up the remainder of the episode.
hypodrmage
Member
Is there any place to get that "Slow 30's Room" song that plays when the Giant first appears in this episode?
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