There's your problem, there's no way anyone involved with this is worried about giving a satisfying conclusion
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Twin Peaks Season 3 OT |25 Years Later...It Is Happening Again
- Thread starter Sumio Mondo
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There's your problem, there's no way anyone involved with this is worried about giving a satisfying conclusion
MisterR
Member
Yep, condescending as hell. Especially coming from people who want the show to be more like GoT or a night time soap.
What works for one format doesn't necessarily work for another. The original Twin Peaks was so great because when the Lynchian moments did come in they were both impactful to the story and genuinely interesting. Season 3 is just scene after scene of moments that do nothing or very little for the story, pacing or atmosphere.
Because Dougie isn't a character; he's surrounded by some genuinely funny and interesting characters but those characters are, for the most part, just one-dimensional stereotypes. Each scene with Dougie can be summarised as "Dougie acts clueless whilst things happen around him." There's no character development, no real plot development, it's just things happening in the same way a lot of the show is just "things happening." It's Episode 14 and I'm still just seeing repeats of what happened in Episode 4.
Dale Cooper not being a main character isn't the issue here, the issue is that what's there to replace him is nowhere near as interesting as it really should be.
See:
Don't call people condescending when you don't even read their arguments and go straight to "you just want it to be GoT!!!"
Except nobody is saying that. No one who likes the show is using that "defense". That would imply what we have now is seen as a mess and full of useless scenes that we "hope" pay off at the end.
Most are saying the like or love what we have now, period. Even without knowing how it will end.
How it wraps up doesn't change how enjoyable the material we have now is. I don't see anyone saying "none of this makes sense and I dont like it but I hope it will pay off in the end!" Most are judging the episodes on what we have now and find them immensely enjoyable.
There is no "well I hope this pays off because this is stupid so far" sort of attitude like you saw with AD Season 4. You see appreciation for what we have now based purely alone on what we have now.
Reason being I don't think ANYONE is expecting this to be wrapped up in a nice bow and solve every loose and and have it end happily ever after. That isn't how David Lynch does things. Look how Season 2 ended on a cliff-hanger. When FWWM was announced many people assumed that it would wrap up the loose ends and solve that cliff-hanger. And well, Lynch had zero interest in doing that. You aren't going to get a Return of the King style ended where every divergent storyline is all wrapped up and solved. To expect Lynch to even want to do that...would not be very Lynch like.
SJurgenson
Banned
OK. My question is, "What do we have"?
What is the meaning, purpose, or value of last episodes' Audrey scene? Or the continual misadventures of Dougie? Or a several-minute long sequence of a black and white boxing match?
MisterR
Member
I don't give a shit about sticking the ending and I'm not waiting around for it to "get good". I'm enjoying the journey every step of the way. I love being in this world. I don't mind taking my time in it. I think it's a major difference with a lot of people. They are only worried about plot and narrative pace and everything tying into some grand plan. This is much more about the journey for me.
Airola
Member
You can edit art as much as you can make modifications to anything you have. You can buy a guitar and change it to be what you want it to be if that's what you want. You can modify your kitchen sink if you want. You can buy a book and write another version for yourself if you want. You can buy a house and make changes to the architecture if you want.
Art is not some golden calf to be worshipped. Art is just art. You either get entertained by examining it or you don't. And if you don't, why not change it into something else if you want to do so. It's not as if the original piece is now gone
Of course you don't get to sell your version or claim this new version is the original, but for your own entertainment purposes it's ok to do whatever you want with it.
The fact you seem insistent everything has to matter, everything has to be about solving some sort of big mystery...is exactly the problem. You are putting your own expectations on this.
It's an 18 hour David Lynch movie, just doing it's own thing. Stop worrying about what sort of big mystery there is and how everything has to "answer" something, because more than likely you are not going to get all (or even many) of whatever questions you may have answered.
It's an 18 hour David Lynch movie that just happens to share the same on screen universe as a tv show he did in the early 90s. Just enjoy it for what it is and not worry about how it needs to answer some sort of question or lead to some sort of all encompassing conclusion. It is what it is. Which is a David Lynch movie, which like most of his movies are bizarre, confusing, and often do not make a ton of sense but only he can do what he does so you enjoy the ride for what it is.
Are you familiar with Lynch's work?
I'm not being snarky, it's just if you were you would know this is a foolish question to ask.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEqhiC4zcGA
https://youtu.be/0eN4rpDDg1M?t=24m41s
Loops of repetitive violence, happenstance pulling unwitting figures back and forth between good and evil, the perpetual and inescapable effects of trauma, the nightmarish inscrutability of everyday life, the idea that if you act in good will (or in dougies case with essentially no will and thus no impulse to harm) the universe will reward you
The idea Lynch is going to do something like Lost or Game of Thrones or something where everything is leading to some kind of conclusion where questions will be answered is...odd.
Lynch doesn't like to answer questions, he doesn't like to wrap things up in a nice little bow. He wants to leave you confused, bewildered and thinking about what you saw and what it all means. Not hand-holding you and showing you the answers like this is Game of Thrones.
None of us are saying "wait to see how it all works in the end!" is not what anyone is saying because expecting Lynch to have it all make sense and have all the questions be answered is an unreasonable expectation as he doesn't work that way.
Guess what, we probably won't know what that bug thing was in Episode 8, what was up with the glass room, or Richard's origin story, or how Mr. C created Dougie. And that is perfectly fine. No one is watching a modern David Lynch film to get questions answered.
No one is assuming "all will be answered", to even judge this and scenes based on that criteria would explain your frustration because that isn't what Lynch is going to do, Lynch has made this clear in the show. The scene with the french woman taking 7 minutes to leave Gordon's hotel room was as blatant as it gets, Lynch is telling you to stop obsessing over the details and just relax and enjoy the ride.
Lynch doesn't like to answer questions, he doesn't like to wrap things up in a nice little bow. He wants to leave you confused, bewildered and thinking about what you saw and what it all means. Not hand-holding you and showing you the answers like this is Game of Thrones.
None of us are saying "wait to see how it all works in the end!" is not what anyone is saying because expecting Lynch to have it all make sense and have all the questions be answered is an unreasonable expectation as he doesn't work that way.
Guess what, we probably won't know what that bug thing was in Episode 8, what was up with the glass room, or Richard's origin story, or how Mr. C created Dougie. And that is perfectly fine. No one is watching a modern David Lynch film to get questions answered.
No one is assuming "all will be answered", to even judge this and scenes based on that criteria would explain your frustration because that isn't what Lynch is going to do, Lynch has made this clear in the show. The scene with the french woman taking 7 minutes to leave Gordon's hotel room was as blatant as it gets, Lynch is telling you to stop obsessing over the details and just relax and enjoy the ride.
Airola
Member
To be fair though, earlier in the season people did say something like "you haven't seen how it ends up being so why are you complaining yet." At one point it was an argument against people who felt the show was going nowhere.
As the show went along it is clear Lynch has no interest in this being a typical "finale" sort of situation where everything converges and wraps up.
The scene with the french woman was him letting you know this, it is clear the theme of the show is about patience and letting go of your expectations.
Which makes a lot of sense with Lynch's embrace of transcendental meditation.
Either you are on board with that or not.
SJurgenson
Banned
OK, do you feel that those themes were delivered well by those scenes? I'll agree that those were the ideas/themes being presented and considered, but I don't think the given the time and other resources available to Lynch, that those scenes were a good delivery mechanism for the ideas. Those themes were all masterfully explored and expressed in the original run, and FWWM without the use of time-wasting looping boxing footage, or a complete empty shell of a character in place of the protagonist.
I suppose I don't want direct answers to the questions, but I at least want some meaningful exploration of the questions on screen. Having a seemingly meaningless multi-minute loop of a character watching a boxing match is not an exploration of the theme or idea at all. I got the idea in the first minute. What are those other minutes conveying?
Net_Wrecker
Member
Not necessarily true. I'm a fan of this season and Lynch but I've only seen Inland Empire twice, coming away from it both times just like..... "Nah." I doubt I'll ever watch it again.
Twin Peaks: The Return is way more palatable and interesting. I made peace with the possibility that Cooper's return might be a late 3rd act event weeks ago, and it made watching and appreciating the show a lot easier. On top of the fact that I never thought I'd see Lynch get money for another project with some scope to it, this season It has also given me one of the best episodes of television I'll ever see in my life. I came into this with no idea of what to expect, and it's been one hell of a bewildering ride so far.
The fact you get frustrated with it means you are missing the point. It is clear this series is all about who Lynch is today with his love of the transcendental movement.
It is all about patience and letting go, getting antsy and wanting something to happen.....is exactly the point.
Look the french woman scene. Albert is getting flustered and impatient how long she is taking and how she is wasting time. Lynch is loving every second of it.
Lynch wants you to be more like Gordon, less like Albert.
JoJoShabadoo
Member
I don't even care that Cooper isn't in the season. I'd be fine with him in the Lodge until the finale, honestly. Lynch blew his wad early in episodes 1-3 I think, showing all the Black Lodge scenes back to back. They could have been spaced out throughout the season, IMO.
But yes, I know, if he did that Dougie couldn't exist. It's fine if you guys are entertained by Douglas Jones' weekly antics but let's not act like any one of us could have predicted this would be where Cooper would spend the entire season. If there were a fan questionnaire prior to the season airing saying, "Would you prefer to see Agent Cooper or a comatose empty shell of a person in the new season of Twin Peaks" I'm pretty sure... We'd all want Coop. We've come to terms with it, we've gone through the stages of grief and accepted his role in the show, but you can only have so many scenes of Dougie sitting still and reacting to secondary characters before it gets old and disrupts the flow of the script.
This isn't me lamenting the fact that this isn't like the original Twin Peaks. This isn't me being unfamiliar with Lynch. This is just a viewer watching an 18 hour TV show and being told a very inconsistent story.
But yes, I know, if he did that Dougie couldn't exist. It's fine if you guys are entertained by Douglas Jones' weekly antics but let's not act like any one of us could have predicted this would be where Cooper would spend the entire season. If there were a fan questionnaire prior to the season airing saying, "Would you prefer to see Agent Cooper or a comatose empty shell of a person in the new season of Twin Peaks" I'm pretty sure... We'd all want Coop. We've come to terms with it, we've gone through the stages of grief and accepted his role in the show, but you can only have so many scenes of Dougie sitting still and reacting to secondary characters before it gets old and disrupts the flow of the script.
This isn't me lamenting the fact that this isn't like the original Twin Peaks. This isn't me being unfamiliar with Lynch. This is just a viewer watching an 18 hour TV show and being told a very inconsistent story.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
I enjoy the Dougie bits a lot actually, in big part because I kind of love all the characters in the Vegas part of the show? Like I didn't like all of them at first, but I've been coming to love all of them as the season goes on. And I think that's a big part of why I like the Dougie stuff so much, not just him slowly (and I mean slowly) growing, but the wide eccentric cast of characters that are being developed around him who all have these super eccentric bigger-than-life personalities... Like every character almost in the Vegas stuff has these bold and exaggerated personalities that are just really fun to watch, and due to them all being bigger than life and colorful to Dougie, and how Dougie ends up touching and changing all of them, Dougie who is a simpleton slowly coming back to his old self, it paints the Dougie stuff as super vibrant, colorful, and fun for me.
That's just my opinion, though. As the series has gone on I've actually been finding the stuff in Vegas more and more enjoyable as the characters grow and expand more. The weirdest thing is the stuff in Vegas is honestly probably the stuff closest to the silly soap opera stuff in the original series, it has like the most off-beat quirkiness and strange developing and enveloping plot lines that connect together out of any of the other bits of the current season. So I just find it a bit ironic that people are chastising the return of Cooper and lack of Twin Peaks when the stuff featuring Dougie is maybe the most like the original show's silly quirkiness out of anything else going on in the show. These are just some fleeting thoughts of mine, though.
That's just my opinion, though. As the series has gone on I've actually been finding the stuff in Vegas more and more enjoyable as the characters grow and expand more. The weirdest thing is the stuff in Vegas is honestly probably the stuff closest to the silly soap opera stuff in the original series, it has like the most off-beat quirkiness and strange developing and enveloping plot lines that connect together out of any of the other bits of the current season. So I just find it a bit ironic that people are chastising the return of Cooper and lack of Twin Peaks when the stuff featuring Dougie is maybe the most like the original show's silly quirkiness out of anything else going on in the show. These are just some fleeting thoughts of mine, though.
SJurgenson
Banned
I realize I am not defending my position perfectly, and that I am mis-stating others positions due to my lack of preciseness.
But this is kind of my point, showcased.
I may be misunderstanding other people's arguments here, but it seems people are defending the argument that we don't know what's going on with: "You expect to know what's going on? Heh, you fool. David Lynch isn't interested in making sense"
Obviously that is a caricature, but I do think there is a kernel of truth to it. I keep using the word 'value' in my arguments. I think I should attempt to elaborate.
Let's look at a couple of styles of scenes, and where I see 'value':
1. A plot-moving scene. Visually and thematically, this could be boring. But if Character A tells Character B something new, the audience learns something and the plot moves. The value gained in the knowledge and progressing plot. Look at any other show for an example of this.
2. A thematic scene. Visually and thematically interesting, but does not need to present anything relating to a plot or story. The psychedelic and explosion scenes in the last pre-break episode are this type. The value was not plot or story related, but theme. I felt that those scenes were conveying a meaning, a tone, a feeling -- even though no plot was conveyed (although I think it was, arguably)
3. A character study scene. This is somewhat a mixture of the two. It could be a mundane scene where we watch a slice of a character's life. We don't need to get any plot movement out of it, and it's not just a stylistic/thematic scene. The value gained in the deeper understanding of the character. This could also apply to places, such as the 'character' of the Roadhouse.
My complaint is not that the show is full of scenes not strictly of the plot-moving variety. I'm down with all those types above.
My complaint is that the show, especially in the last several episodes, is full of scenes where I just don't see any of the value of the types I identified. This can totally be my personal opinion. But, me, personally, I cannot bring myself to care to watch another scene in which a character does nothing while nothing happens in the scene. Yeah, violence -- I get it. A boxing match. What new meaning or value is portrayed by having that run for several minutes?
I was feeling this tremendously with the Big Ed scene and Audrey's sad scene.
By the sarah palmer scenes and everything to do with dougie sure. I love dougie--mostly, I have begun to feel a bit worn out the last two or three episodes, but not enough to be entirely turned off.
The Audrey stuff I remain ambivalent about. And overall I agree the original series and fwwm were superior. But the passage of time gives these revisited themes a new dimension.
Film and tv aren't about pure efficiency, necessarily. The idea may be clear right away as the first minutes of sarah watching a boxing loop and searching for the last drops of vodka tick by. But the duration deepened the emotion for me, gave it weight, formed a lived-in performance and world. I thought the scene was beautifully sad, as a result of the meditative disposition. Scenes like that and the floor sweeping and carl puttering around fat trout and ben and Beverly looking for a hum are actionless and pleasing. Lot of film directors you could compare it to--Jim jarmusch, tsai Ming-liang, Roy andersson. It's not for everyone and that's fine. But "meaningless" is overreaching.
I am personally exponentially more interested in what Lynch and Frost want to see out of Twin Peaks than what a fan questionnaire would want to see.
Net_Wrecker
Member
I adore Janey E, the MItchum Brothers, and Candie straight up. I can't explain it, I just love these people. Just like the Sonny Jim scene in this new episode where he's playing on the gym set. Completely entranced, I don't even know why. Just such a left field way of showcasing that moment.
SJurgenson
Banned
Yeah, I think you nailed my argument better than I have.
I'm not saying I hate all the slowly paced scenes, or that I am not down for Lynch's style -- but using his style as a defense against all criticism is not valid.
The season has been great at times, showcasing all the unique Lynch themes, styles, and other things that you've all expressed -- but lately, he's not been doing a good job at it.
You cannot wave away all criticisms of the show with 'well that's Lynch's style' or 'You don't understand'.
Even if David Lynch has a completely unique style and method compared to anyone else, that does not mean his work is perfect, no matter how poorly he does.
But, yeah. My complaint is less that I don't understand, or that I hate the slow pacing -- it's that it's been wildly inconsistent.
I think this is the clearest divide on the show is. Fan service vs. Lynch going full Lynch.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
I was entranced during the jungle gym and congo line scenes this episode as well, it was all rather ethereal feeling for some reason. Add to that I love his boss, Bushnell Mullins, who is kind of like Dougie's guiding figure and empathizer once he begins to understand him, or those three laughing cop brothers investigating Dougie Jones who go in-sync with each other and find everything funny. Hell, this episode made me like Anthony Sinclair as a sort of pitable person who lost control of his life and saw the light thanks to Dougie Jones. Or the guy who brings the coffee and has learned how to lure Dougie around with coffee rather than just guiding him.
There's just a lot of colorful characters in the stuff, which I think is a big part why I kind of love the Vegas stuff.
JoJoShabadoo
Member
Here's the thing, the scenes need atmosphere to work. Creating an atmosphere has been David Lynch's strong point throughout his career. If a scene is stretched out while you hear demons chanting in the background, thunder crackling in the distance, the lights dimming , etc. etc. you create something memorable, something with a mood. Many scenes this season achieve that. The 3 minute scene of the dirty bearded men resuscitating Bob while a slowed down Moonlight Sonata plays and Ray watches in horror? Lynch at the top of his game. Hawk visiting Sarah's house and suspicious noises heard from behind her? Intriguing and unsettling.
But... Audrey speaking to her husband for six minutes in pure silence? Dougie scribbling on paperwork for 5 minutes? That just has you literally yell "come the fuck on already" at the screen. Regardless of its meaning or intentions.
I feel the season has more examples of the latter. Even the fans of the season are describing it as "a test of your patience".
I'm not.
Wrestlemania
Banned
The spotlight during the Sonny Gym scene made me really anxious because of how prominent that was during Maddys death scene.
JoJoShabadoo
Member
Well, cheers then. But most people are.
If you say so
Airola
Member
Yes, some posters thought of that during the earlier episodes but were told to not judge things like that before they haven't even seen the full show yet.
It feels like at some point it was:
X: "Lynch is never going to give us answers, bummer."
Y: "Don't judge yet, the show isn't even halfway through!"
And now it is:
X: "Lynch is never going to give us answers, bummer."
Y: "Lol, that was always the case, how come you didn't realize that?"
That was the previous to last episode though. Episode number 12. I think it's pretty reasonable if people have been frustrated before that scene, and even after that scene.
This is very much true. I'm on board. Just being sort of an apologist for people who aren't.
SJurgenson
Banned
I don't think that's fair either. I don't know how many people are perfectly content, and how many are not.
But I don't think it's OK to wave away all criticism as just not 'understanding' Lynch, as many here seem to be attempting to do.
Wrestlemania
Banned
I was actually trying to remember if the conversation between Dougie and the Mitchums (I think?) about Sonny Jim needing a gym were because of them misunderstanding when he talked about his son.
SJurgenson
Banned
Here's my argument against 'he was never going to deliver':
The first several episodes were PACKED with Grade-A USDA Plot! New characters, new locations, new concepts, new mysteries! Chock full! Remember all the new questions you had after the two-part opener? It wasn't just the opener, there have been several episodes this season where tons of meaningful plot happened.
You don't get to claim the season was always going to be about Seinfeld-style nothing when the show has given tons of plot.
If Lynch wanted to make an 18-hour opus to the lackadaisical mundane, he shouldn't have been shoving plot down our throats throughout the season.
He delivered plot previously, therefore you don't get to ignore complaints about lack of plot now.
I'm all for slow paced scenes delivering nothing but tone or themes, but since the season started with an implicit promise to be about a plot (with all those new mysteries and characters introduced), he does not get to just peter out with nothing happening for the remaining episodes and claim to have delivered something successful.
Haloid1177
Banned
I think that Twin Peaks fans are annoyed with it, but David Lynch fans are loving it. That's what I've sussed out in my group of friends that are watching it.
matrixman92
Member
Fluffernutter Pancake
Member
I agree w/ your last three points --- particularly, that there's no need for the new Sheriff Truman. Hawk could have easily filled that gap. Andy & Lucy are extreme takes on their old dim, silly selves and their scenes get awkward very quickly.
Regarding Dougie, I can understand the frustration, as I really want to see Agent Cooper again in full form, but I appreciate Dougie for what he is and how it contributes to the story.
The longing for Cooper's return and the devastating impact of his being trapped in the lodge (on every person in the Twin Peaks lore that knew him) is at the heart of Season 3's story arc. The entire season is effectively revolving around the impact of Cooper's disappearance, the rampage of dopple-Cooper/BOB, and the slow return of Cooper to the real world in the form of Dougie.
What I hope this means is that we will get seasons beyond this one. It would be cruel to not get any more Twin Peaks story with Agent Cooper after he returns to form, although I'm sure if that happens, that his return (or death) will be very tastefully and satisfyingly done by Lynch/Frost.
Airola
Member
Well, to be fair, my question after those two episodes was "is this show really going to be this bad?" Oddly enough, I started to like this season when Dougie appeared (Cooper as Dougie - the real Dougie wasn't that good - I still dread the "this is weird" comment in the Red Room).
To me it all comes down to whether the things shown are interesting or not. Silence and slowness can be very interesting. They can also be very boring too. Boring is never interesting, even if it is used for a purpose. This season has had both types of slow moments. And even both types of faster moments too.
SJurgenson
Banned
But that's the thing, there is no devastating impact of Cooper being trapped in the Lodge or in Dougie. He's just missing.
You don't need Cooper gone to have Dougie. You could have Copper in the lodge, and still have Dim Ol' Dougie running around. I like the concept of Cooper having to fight his way back, Odysseus style -- but we don't have that. We have nothing to show for the loss of Cooper. Just keep him in the lodge, or show us something about his struggle against Dougie.
Static Veins
Member
Just got Part 14 spoiled for me on Reddit.
I'd be mad but holy shit it sounds so nuts I'm just more hyped and more intrigued than ever.
This week is going to drag so bad.
I'd be mad but holy shit it sounds so nuts I'm just more hyped and more intrigued than ever.
This week is going to drag so bad.
Net_Wrecker
Member
I don't think it's wise to hope for this. If they wanted to do that, Cooper would've been back by the 5th episode. This journey back is effectively an end. This is the moment where 25 years of something in the universe being out of balance has a chance to be either restored by Coop/White Lodge spirits, or made infinitely worse by whatever the hell Mr. C/BOB are/were planning with the glass box.
If we get more, great, but everything the show is doing (that we can comprehend right now) seems to point to a collision course of weird and vitally important stuff about to happen in this final stretch of episodes.
Don Draper's Hat
Member
Guys, please. Stop saying you read spoilers and are extremely hyped by them.
It helps no one. It just winds us all up. Please. We've only just watched episode 13.
Please.
Stop.
Please.
It helps no one. It just winds us all up. Please. We've only just watched episode 13.
Please.
Stop.
Please.
31GhostsIV
Banned
I read one plot reveal by accident earlier and I'm still pissed off about it. I just hope I can do the week without it being completely blown.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
All I know is what I posted earlier, just know the next episode is supposed to be very good and it'd be best to go in knowing as little as possible.
And everyone here either try to not discuss it here, and if anyone spoils anything without clear spoiler tags, don't quote it, just report it to a mod.
And everyone here either try to not discuss it here, and if anyone spoils anything without clear spoiler tags, don't quote it, just report it to a mod.
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