Just caught up and finished the ending. God that was haunting. Perhaps more than any scene or moment in the show, it captures the nightmare of Laura's life which can never be erased. Only manifest in different ways. Kinda puts a damper on FWWM's angel ending though. I think people may be looking at episode 18 too literally if they consider it to be an alternate timeline or dream scenario. This was more Lost Highway than Mulholland Dr.
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Twin Peaks Season 3 |OT2| It's Just A Change, Not An End
- Thread starter Joqu
- Start date
Gozer the Gozerian
Member
What happens when you play all the Candie scenes over the finale? We need to investigate
The finale is getting into people's heads and making them search for things that aren't there. Just like Agent Cooper.
Just after airing, before we could exam the frame so easily, multiple people were swearing they saw the experiment/the mother in the window of the Palmer house. It's great that the suggestion that had been built up was so strong that people were seeing something that wasn't literally there.
Just after airing, before we could exam the frame so easily, multiple people were swearing they saw the experiment/the mother in the window of the Palmer house. It's great that the suggestion that had been built up was so strong that people were seeing something that wasn't literally there.
Not to mention, we're talking about a director who refuses to include a scene selection feature on home releases of his movies as if it could somehow hurt our appreciation of the film. This is a dude who gets annoyed at the thought of his stuff not being watched on the biggest possible screen with best possible sound.
That kind of person isn't going to make a movie you'd have to re-edit yourself (or, more likely - stream it off youtube, on your ffffucking telephone).
It's kind of undeniable the endings "overlay" into one another in a mind blowing way.
It could also be a "cosmic" coincidence, like Laura's theme midi waves forming the Twin Peaks.
But god damn.
I don't think he intended anybody to overlap them, but they are meant to echo one another, and the fact we see Sarah in the present instead of the past also implicated it's tied to the 18 momentum/ending, while being directly caused by Laura being saved.
The fact that he made them structurally similar was intended and leads to the overlay being extremely relevant.
Nah, she's whispering, "the final two episodes are meant to be overlapped with an editing program."
Holy shit, it all makes sense now!
kingkaiser
Member
Is the close up of Coop's face burned-in on screen mirrored in episode 18?
If it isn't then this theory is probably just grasping at straws.
If it isn't then this theory is probably just grasping at straws.
Of course it's grasping at straws. There are no strong indicators that they are meant to be watched simultaneously. There are neat coincidences, like Cooper looking toward Laura's photo, but there's nothing that would really clinch it, like exact simultaneous edits across the screens. They mirror each other as much as they do because they are meant to be watched and considered together and reveal the futility of Cooper's quest to save Laura.
31GhostsIV
Banned
I think there's something to it. Until the finale everyone was trying to figure out if the scenes were shown in correct order so it doesn't surprise me that Sarah's scene fits in before Laura's scream. Simultaneously is a stretch, but location of scene in linear time?
There's still much more to unpack in the season as a whole - did anyone ever work out what the flashes on the FBI plane window were about, for example?
Basically I don't think all of the answers are in the final two parts.
There's a lot of glitches to indicate that this reality might not be 'real' throughout. They get less subtle as the season goes on, but earlier on things like the weird ghosting effects as people are shot, edits where the characters present in a scene suddenly change completely, the plane windows flickering, and more are scattered around.
31GhostsIV
Banned
I took the diner, the scene with the sheriff's dept waiting for Andy at Jack Rabbit's Palace (where there was two scenes of them overlapped, funnily enough) and the looping conversation between Emily Stofle and Shane Lynch at the Roadhouse to mean two timelines were 'bleeding' into each other. Oh, and Ed's reflection.
But flashing white lights on the plane windows?
Nah, I'm good. After the way the original show handled the whisper, I'm perfectly content with not getting to hear it.
Laura sure as hell didn't say "my father killed me" back then, so I see this as Lynch's attempt at course-correcting a mystery that was once ruined by clueless writers/director.
The Fronde
Member
So after following this thread since the finale, reading theories, and listening to EW's podcast, my vote on the ending is...
Everything from the moment Cooper wakes up in the hotel room and reads the note is a dream of Cooper's. He's still dreaming in the hotel after spending the night with Diane. He never woke up.
It seems like that interpretation makes the most sense and is simplest, especially being teased with the giant Cooper face in episode 17, who says as much.
And so... Laura's still dead (time traveling Cooper couldn't help). She isn't really Carrie Paige. Cooper is living inside a dream. He is the dreamer.
Everything from the moment Cooper wakes up in the hotel room and reads the note is a dream of Cooper's. He's still dreaming in the hotel after spending the night with Diane. He never woke up.
It seems like that interpretation makes the most sense and is simplest, especially being teased with the giant Cooper face in episode 17, who says as much.
And so... Laura's still dead (time traveling Cooper couldn't help). She isn't really Carrie Paige. Cooper is living inside a dream. He is the dreamer.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is a negative. I guess I can only speak for myself but I do feel a conflict in wanting to know more and knowing there will always be more to know so it doesn't matter.
Overall I found the season to be a mixed bag but when it's on point there's nothing else out there like it. I think it lacked the emotional intensity of the original and FWWM but there were a few moments which are right up there as the show's best. The ending scene and Audrey's dance are unforgettable.
Or, everything after Cooper wakes up in hospital is a dream. He is Dougie Jones, a man who stuck his fork into a socket.
Or, everything after Cooper was shot at the end of season 1 is a dream. After all, it's after that moment that supernatural elements started bleeding into the reality of the show. Cooper is on the floor, in a coma.
Or, Cooper is still in the black lodge, having never left. All of season 3 is a dream. That's why we return to the moment of him being whispered to, within the lodge.
Dreams upon dreams upon dreams.
Or, Laura is dreaming. Pretending that she isn't Laura Palmer, a girl who was raped and murdered. That she could take on another identity, no longer defined by her trauma.
Or is it Audrey dreaming it all up?
I think a lot of people are reading this along the lines of Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive, which are both about a different universe and a new identity being dreamed up by someone trying to deny the horror of their situation. That's certainly a part of it, but I think Lynch has moved past that and this is far more in line with Inland Empire: dreams upon dreams upon dreams, blurring into each other, until it's unclear which one is reality any more, and it ultimately doesn't matter. More than any individual, they are about a space where our dreams merge into each other, the collective unconscious. There is no one dreamer: we are all dreamers, and sometimes we slip into each other's dreams.
While Lost Highway does have a clear character motive for its reality distortion, the mechanics behind it are incomprehensible because unlike Mulholland Dr. there's no clear delineation between the real and distorted. Which is why I think it's still a relevant stylistic reference to S3.
Gozer the Gozerian
Member
This thread is my dream. Everything in OT2 didn't really happen.
I think Grace Zabriskie was great in her role and Lynch really sold her as this decaying parasitic spirit but Sarah' importance, her fate being intertwined with Laura's so deeply seemed to come from no where. She never appeared even the least bit malevolent before this season.
plagiarize
Banned
Victims of sexual abuse often harbor more anger to the parent that turned a blind eye to the abuse than the parent that committed it.
What ?
She had a clear connection with the Lodge and she's Laura's mother.... So I'm not sure I'm following.
It wasn't revealed she was the host of an evil entity, but it was certainly implied she wasn't quite normal.
I thought that, while it's much better overall than the original show, the more abstracted and less character driven nature of this series when compared to the original meant that it would never match the emotional heights of the FWWM ending or my favourite scene of the original run, Maddy's death and the roadhouse aftermath. The ending of episode 17 was somehow as powerfully, beautifully sad as that moment to me. Episode 18 matched that level of intensity once more: a pervasive sense of dread hung over the entire episode, and the ending was shattering. It's a strange journey that needs to be seen in full before it is fully felt, but season 3 is ultimately as moving as anything Lynch has accomplished, which is tantamount to saying it's as moving as anything else in the history of cinema.
The time loop aspect is also similar. At the point at which the dream ends, another begins anew, always returning to the same point.
The imagery is also very similar, particularly in the first and last episodes.
I compare it most to Inland Empire because the dreams lead us into other dreams and we end up in a totally different dreamscape than we were in originally. It is probably one version of Laura Dern dreaming (but which one?) just as this is probably one of the versions of Kyle MacLachlan dreaming, but it could also be the prostitute in the hotel dreaming, or someone in Poland.
The dreams are all linked by the metaphor of cinema, which allows us to enter another person's dream. The Fireman brings this metaphor into Twin Peaks, overseeing dreams in different realities on a cinema screen and creating more dreams for people to get lost in.
chekhonte
Member
Here's the last two episodes played in tandem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=284&v=dk5aBRrHZFY
I'm watching it now since I can't imagine that this will stay up long considering it's youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=284&v=dk5aBRrHZFY
I'm watching it now since I can't imagine that this will stay up long considering it's youtube.
I think this makes a lot sense from a thematic perspective actually. Never thought about it.
I didn't say she was normal but that she wasn't shown to be malevolent. Why did that strike you as so baffling?
I think that's a fair assessment. I personally respond more strongly to emotional resonance of a piece of work than it's other qualities thus my reaction but as you say there were many instances here such as the E17 ending with Cruise performing "The World Spins" which are definitely on par.
Inland Empire probably is a better point of comparison but I didn't mention it because I still haven't seen it
.I think the idea is that she was not malevolent before this season. The bug within her was dormant until she experienced the trauma of the destruction of her family. 'Judy' was drawn to her.
I see it as a metaphor for how the potential to be overtaken by darkness is within us, if we are unfortunate enough to experience the wrong events at the wrong time.
'The absurd mystery of the strange forces of existence', indeed.
Yeah, these aren't meant to be watched simultaneously. The reprise of Laura's forest scream being layered over Gordon waffling on? Come on. People are directing energy towards the wrong things, and trying to solve mysteries that will never be solved, just like Agent Cooper.
chekhonte
Member
I genuinely don't think there's a right way to interpret this.
Are you referring to my Sarah reading, playing the last two episodes simultaneously, or all of it?
It's open ended by design. It's not meaningless, there's definitely something meant by it. It wouldn't register so deeply if there wasn't. I think the 'right' interpretation is that by which you can use this show to enrich your life.
I read through the theory with 17/18 played simutanenously and it's interesting. Out of the different theories I've seen, it might be the most compelling. Even if it's just for the way that the final scenes sync up with Sarah stabbing at the photo being the thing that caused Lauras scream.
The sync theory makes a ton of sense to me, especially with how both 17 and 18 were released at the same time. We always say that Lynch is intentional in everything he does, and I think releasing the eps concurrently goes along with that. Mrs. Tremond being played by a non-actor makes it even more compelling too
chekhonte
Member
Any of it. There is no cipher that will stitch this season together and turn it into a linear, understandable narrative even though people will try and believe they have succeeded. The entire time watching this season I was often reminded of a baudrillard quote:
That is exactly what makes our times so oppressive. The system produces a negativity in trompe-loeil, which is integrated into products of the spectacle just as obsolescence is built into industrial products. It is the most efficient way of incorporating all genuine alternatives. There are no longer external Omega points or any antagonistic means available in order to analyze the world; there is nothing more than a fascinated adhesion. One must understand, however, that the more a system nears perfection, the more it approaches the total accident. It is a form of objective irony stipulating that nothing ever happened.
snausagesUK
Member
Above quote caused my brains task manager to hang
This has probably been posted but I think this is probably the best and most accurate theory out there for the final two episodes.
https://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/
https://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/
chekhonte
Member
I probably should have posted the whole interview though it's nearly as dense all the way through.
http://www2.ubishops.ca/baudrillardstudies/vol1_2/genosko.htm
I definitely agree with you about what the final scene communicates, but I don't think this contradicts Fire Walk With Me. I feel like they are both 'true'. This is another way at expressing the profound horror of Laura's existence, and by introducing Cooper into the mix, the confusion we feel when our lives become entangled with somebody experiencing such undeserved pain, and we realise how powerless we are to relieve them of it.
Fire Walk With Me still happened though. It's the other side of it - the relief of her soul in being freed from its suffering and the knowledge that she did the best she could. And, that Dale Cooper cared for her, enough to try to help.
All that said, I think Lynch probably felt it was too pat and easy as the final word of Laura Palmer. Even if relief comes, a horror that huge can never be fully escaped from. Her life has been touched forever. Trauma victims tend to be retraumatised again and again throughout their life. The echo of the pain calls out to her through her mind. It was the only right way to address the situation 25 years later.
I'm struck by how incredibly well thought through the message of this show is. The message of enjoying the small things, picking the right battles and accepting the mystery of life being the route to happiness is a great one for most people, but it would be downright insulting to a person who had experienced a trauma on the level of Laura's. Lynch is wise enough to acknowledge that there are some people for whom the possibility of happiness is outside of their control. We can try to help them like Carl with the grieving mother, but we can't pin our happiness on the hope of saving them like Dale Cooper.
It's not quite a literal alternate timeline like Back to the Future, but I look at all of the dreams/timelines/possibilities as being equally true. Dougie seeing his family is the end to Cooper's tale just as much as his witnessing Laura's eternal scream, just different pathways possible through choosing to view the world in different ways.
They were definitely released at the same time for a reason, which is that their final scenes echo each other. They're meant to be considered in relation to each other. Cooper trying to save Laura and failing at the end both times shows us that he has doomed to keep trying to do something that is impossible.
They were not released at the same time because Lynch wanted us to watch them simultaneously. Do people not see the irony of taking a conclusion with the message that some mysteries can't ever be solved and then going to elaborate lengths to 'solve the mystery'? This show tells us that we have to accept a lot of things as they are. Some people aren't listening.
voodoopanda
Member
I feel like the last scene of Sarah Palmer from the season 2 finale feels way more important now: https://youtu.be/2eHrLZ1Il00?t=22s
It's surreal but it's not Dadaist. It communicates 'something' that isn't random: Lynch's (and Frost's) thoughts and dreams. I don't see the value in throwing our hands up and declaring any attempt to find meaning in it worthless. As I said before, the meaning is what it gives us, and if we gather emotional satisfaction and intellectual meaning from reading it metaphorically in certain ways (and I will assert that this work is definitely working on the level of metaphor), then why turn our backs on that?
I agree that as a narrative it is open ended, non-linear, and not totally comprehensible by design, as a comment on a world that doesn't make sense. There I go reading something into it again.
Yeah, and I can't remember cos I haven't rewatched the old show in a little while, but wasn't Sarah having visions and stuff right from season one? Plus she was always kind of miserable and fucked up. Back then the intepretation was more literal, that she was traumatised by Leland and in denial of the abuse going on, but there's always been something spooky about her. I guess after 25 years of just existing in the wreckage of her family home, whatever that spookiness was grew.
Weighing in on the 17 & 18 simultaneous stuff... I don't think they were meant to be watched simultaneously, but I do think Lynch intended for the scenes to be happening at the same time.
Like... in most shows, how do you show two events happening at the same time? Usually... split screen. Or cutting back and forth between the two events, so you know they're simultaneous. In Lynch's world... he doesn't really do either of those things, does he? He likes to show one scene at a time. So how does someone who likes to show one scene at a time also convey that two (or more?) scenes are happening at the same time? He probably drops some hints along the way.
I haven't fully-thought any of that out... but I think it makes sense that some parts of 17 & 18 are happening at the same, but maybe on opposite sides of the Möbius strip.
Like... in most shows, how do you show two events happening at the same time? Usually... split screen. Or cutting back and forth between the two events, so you know they're simultaneous. In Lynch's world... he doesn't really do either of those things, does he? He likes to show one scene at a time. So how does someone who likes to show one scene at a time also convey that two (or more?) scenes are happening at the same time? He probably drops some hints along the way.
I haven't fully-thought any of that out... but I think it makes sense that some parts of 17 & 18 are happening at the same, but maybe on opposite sides of the Möbius strip.
Totally.Window said:
I do too (mostly). The conflict lies in confronting the truth which exists against the other possibilities which could have been. The exploration of possibilities is a hallmark of a lot of my favourite works. Diane looking at herself reminded me a lot of Kieslowski's Double Life of Veronique.
chekhonte
Member
I don't think that it's either surreal or dadaist or any other nearly 100 year old set of ideas. Those ideas are codified and dead. If this were either a surrealist or dadaist work it would be overly apparent and completely uninteresting as those ideas have been overused and become hackneyed. What this season of twin peaks is, is something completely different and most definitely new. My best guess is that Lynch is playing a game with the syntax of film that has been massively reinforced by Hollywood film and by extension TV of the past 20 years. He is using small pieces that comprise scenes and are usually stitched together in a way that attempts to create a closed circuit of a films internal verisimilitude. The illusion of the real as defined by a film's or tv show's internal logic and piecing these familiar bits of film grammar in ways that have an abstract poetry to them. I viewed the poem read by the woodsman "this is the water, this is the well, drink free and descend, the horse is the white of the eyes and the dark within" as a kind of example of what Lynch was doing with this form of editing. All parts of that utterance could make literal sense in some other context but when strung together become something else. In some ways familiar, something that begs you to make sense of but ultimately points to something unknowable.
It's a feeling I also feel when reading certain Borges short stories. Inland empire and this season of twin peaks feels like an extension of Borges writing and an undermining of verisimilitude.
31GhostsIV
Banned
While I don't believe the episodes are supposed to be viewed at the same time, I believe it does highlight that on a linear timeline some scenes happen at the same time (the Laura scream/Sarah scene for example). I'd be very interested to see a timeline with a breakdown of scenes for the entire run (quite the undertaking I would imagine).
I like the theory because it thinks outside of the (NY monster) box more than the plausibility of it.
Kadayi
Banned
Not sure if posted already, but there's an interview with Kyle post show here about the making of the series which is pretty neat: -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aStb7Y88RRA
Also, Gamespot Universe did their recap and thoughts on episode 17 & 18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfCw4O2s47w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aStb7Y88RRA
Also, Gamespot Universe did their recap and thoughts on episode 17 & 18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfCw4O2s47w
That's messed up. Both are disgusting but I think being raped by your parents I reckond would be worse.
xrayregime
Member
The symmetry to me is so great. I may be wrong but the last Twin Peaks "normal" scene is Ed and Norma getting together, right?
The first "normal" Twin Peaks scene in The Return is Jacoby getting his shovels delivered.
The first "normal" Twin Peaks scene in The Return is Jacoby getting his shovels delivered.
cablenathan
Member
I think part of why 17 and 18 were released together was because they were to be watched, and more to the point experienced, together; the feelings and sensations we experienced watching from one flow in to the other in the order presented. Neither episode was in of itself the end for me, the final scene may have been the scream, but for me the end of The Return was the 2 hour experience. If you view them in isolation they may provide a satisfying or truly Twin Peaks experience or give us a Lynch/Frost-ian appropriate ending. I couldn't have ended it on either one episode, they just wouldn't have felt true or genuine. I think there was some security in this for the directors and producers, for the semi-serious or even reasonably dedicated of fans they were always going to watch and experience the two together the first time around. They would have been compelled to. No matter their self control it would've been tough to watch one and not the other knowing it was out there.
I don't fully understand all of what we have seen; and I may never fully understand it, but I'm happy to admit that and I like that. Not knowing has been part of the fun for me. I have really enjoyed the experience on screen and off.
My name is [insert name here] and I love Twin Peaks The Return.
I don't fully understand all of what we have seen; and I may never fully understand it, but I'm happy to admit that and I like that. Not knowing has been part of the fun for me. I have really enjoyed the experience on screen and off.
My name is [insert name here] and I love Twin Peaks The Return.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
I think that Parts 17 & 18 were meant to be watched together as well, though it would've been interesting to follow a discussion where Part 17 aired last Sunday, and Part 18 aired tomorrow.
I bet the reaction would've been completely different to both parts had they not aired together. Probably a lot of people loving and hating Part 17, with some people thinking the finale is going to be amazing and some others thinking with Part 17 that Lynch and Frost have officially lost them. Then Part 18 comes along, and some people who loved Part 17 becoming soured to this drastic tone shift, but others loving the shift, and what we had here of many people not immediately knowing what to think of it but then sitting on it they begin to have the ending grow more on them. There certainly would've been more condensed discussion of both parts in the process regardless.
I bet the reaction would've been completely different to both parts had they not aired together. Probably a lot of people loving and hating Part 17, with some people thinking the finale is going to be amazing and some others thinking with Part 17 that Lynch and Frost have officially lost them. Then Part 18 comes along, and some people who loved Part 17 becoming soured to this drastic tone shift, but others loving the shift, and what we had here of many people not immediately knowing what to think of it but then sitting on it they begin to have the ending grow more on them. There certainly would've been more condensed discussion of both parts in the process regardless.
I think after it's been analyzed and people have had time to mull it over, it's definitely a definitive ending and not a cliffhanger like it appears at first blush. I wouldn't say for sure there will be no more definitively as I can't see a reason for Showtime or Frost and Lynch to lead people on if it's absolutely not going to happen, but I'm sure Frost and Lynch wanted a definitive end for the fans just in case this is the end.
I can't imagine what more Twin Peaks would look like at this point, but I wouldn't mind finding out. I can safely say a good 98% of The Return is nothing like I thought it would be, apart from feeling more like FWWM than S1 or S2, which I expected.
I don't see how people see this theory as an "all good ending". Cooper and Diane sacrificed themselves. The "cage" blew up (as planned) and it took both of them with them (and Laura). That's kind of a tragic ending to me.