lol, kojima tried to wrap up every loose tie in mgs4. dude loves explaining things
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Twin Peaks Season 3 |OT2| It's Just A Change, Not An End
- Thread starter Joqu
- Start date
lol, kojima tried to wrap up every loose tie in mgs4. dude loves explaining things
friskykillface
Banned
Cooper should have just let Laura stay dead
If he really wanted to stop Judy he'd have to stop the atomic bomb from going off
One punch man hype hasn't gone done yet 😎🐐
If he really wanted to stop Judy he'd have to stop the atomic bomb from going off
One punch man hype hasn't gone done yet 😎🐐
Groundbreaking TV.
DataStream
Member
Perhaps the lodges are all that exist and reality is the dreams of beings who exists in the white lodge. Man created a "God" with the bomb and dark spirits began to possess and control man which the black lodge tried to leverage to take over reality. Their increased existence was causing the dream to become a nightmare - but they cannot dream and as such empowering the doppelganger and trying to get them into the white lodge was their goal. Mr. C was trying to bring Judy to the white lodge and allow evil to be dominant.
When Dale got into the white lodge his awareness eventually allowed him to work his way out of time in the shared dream reality (manifesting itself as the glitches as that reality started to splinter). In the end Dale and Diane go back in time to try and undo what his doppelganger had done to her. After this he "fixed" what was wrong in the main reality (Audrey is in her own dream) and falls into Laura's dream. She has entered the white lodge as an escape thanks to him taking her off course, but her purpose was always to be a martyr and the black lodge beings (Leland's doppelganger) mislead him into saving her.
When Dale got into the white lodge his awareness eventually allowed him to work his way out of time in the shared dream reality (manifesting itself as the glitches as that reality started to splinter). In the end Dale and Diane go back in time to try and undo what his doppelganger had done to her. After this he "fixed" what was wrong in the main reality (Audrey is in her own dream) and falls into Laura's dream. She has entered the white lodge as an escape thanks to him taking her off course, but her purpose was always to be a martyr and the black lodge beings (Leland's doppelganger) mislead him into saving her.
David Lynch: 'But once you recognize the secret reason for Episode 18's sex scene, you will feel ashamed of your words & deeds.'
mariachi507
Member
I rewatched the season this week after being made aware of the "real Diane being Naido" theory. It made perfect sense when I saw the Naido/Cooper scene in episode 3. She recognized him after touching his face and then decides to help him. It was pretty touching actually. I was glad to see that theory pan out.
I'm still wondering what made her so important as Andy said after his "Lodge" trip. At first I thought she was what Doppelcoop was after, especially from how she feared him. Now it makes more sense that he was after Sarah/Judy if they are the same thing. I'm guessing she was important for helping Coop to go on his second mission after helping dispatch of Dopplecoop and Bob. I'm not sure how she was supposed to help, maybe just being there when Coop left the Lodge again was it.
I'm still wondering what made her so important as Andy said after his "Lodge" trip. At first I thought she was what Doppelcoop was after, especially from how she feared him. Now it makes more sense that he was after Sarah/Judy if they are the same thing. I'm guessing she was important for helping Coop to go on his second mission after helping dispatch of Dopplecoop and Bob. I'm not sure how she was supposed to help, maybe just being there when Coop left the Lodge again was it.
Master_Funk
Member
I think Judy's only real concern is ensuring that Laura palmer is dead and that dale saving Laura is breaking the cycle.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
I said this earlier in Season 3 as a possibility for Dougie waking up, and this is just a bit of a theory, but I think part of Cooper's "shadow side" is his lust. In the original series a number of his problems come from the relationship he formed with Windom Earle's wife, Caroline. Cooper is painted to be an almost 100% upstanding fellow, except he screwed up in a few ways with Earle and his inappropriate relationship brought him into question with authorities. This plot line takes a backseat through most of the show, but it comes back into play in the Season 2 finale. The Audrey relationship, which would've been inappropriate, almost happens but is cut short by Kyle due to his wife at the time. So they introduce Annie instead, who Cooper does rush feelings for, and in the Season 2 finale when he enters the Black Lodge and faces his 'shadow self', I think it's no coincidence the things that pop up are related to his fears, which involves him being shot (one of the few times in the series we see Cooper talk about keeping fear out of his mind and personal fear in general), and then he finds Annie dead (in the same way Caroline died), but then Annie turns into Caroline, and I think Cooper both is afraid of what Windom will do but also that this whole situation of his lust may be a repeat of his 'sin' with Caroline. Twin Peaks has all sorts of relationship doohickery, but Cooper has a higher standard for himself as a government professional. It's also after this Cooper becomes very fearful and begins to run away from himself, but ultimately he is overcome by his shadow self (as Hawk puts it), which is what leads to Mr. C taking over in the real world for him.
I don't think it's coincidence one of the first things Mr. C does upon leaving the lodge is literally raping the people that Cooper has intimate feelings for. I also think it's not coincidence the path to the finale happens with Cooper giving in to some urges and doing it with Diane.
Just a thought, I brought this up earlier in the series but I think it's relevant with what triggers the end stuff in Part 18.
I don't think it's coincidence one of the first things Mr. C does upon leaving the lodge is literally raping the people that Cooper has intimate feelings for. I also think it's not coincidence the path to the finale happens with Cooper giving in to some urges and doing it with Diane.
Just a thought, I brought this up earlier in the series but I think it's relevant with what triggers the end stuff in Part 18.
We have met before, haven't we?
He was in uncharted territory and was acting with the appropriate amount of gravitas. Human beings are multifaceted. Dude isn't gonna be smiling over a cup of coffee when he finds himself in a version of the world he no longer recognizes. He was in the same mode he was in when he went into the Red Room during the season 2 finale.
Intheflorsh
Banned
It's pretty great that BOTH the "Linda = Diane" and "Naido = Diane" theories ended up being true.
darkwing-buck
Member
Twin Peaks: The Return (2017)
Camper Van Beethoven
Banned
No, because hes good.
mariachi507
Member
I also couldn't help but feel giddy at Dern and Kyle being together again after all of these years.
And then the sex scene happened and I felt something else. Dread.
And then the sex scene happened and I felt something else. Dread.
DodgyGeezerFella
Member
Well now I'm just depressed.
That ending, and the likelihood of not getting any more episodes to expand on it.
That ending, and the likelihood of not getting any more episodes to expand on it.
Necron
Member
"There are things you can't get anywhere... but we dream they can be found in other people." - Harold Smith
Intheflorsh
Banned
Yeah, I was pretty worried that those two weren't going to act together. Would have been a missed opportunity.
Thinking on it, I think I liked 18 as an ending more than 17. 17 is more initially satisfying -- it's packed with stuff happening, characters and plot threads converging, the final showdown with the Doppelganger and BOB and real Coop, finally back in Twin Peaks. But of all the extraneous things Lynch has introduced in this season, having One Punch Freddie of all people be the one to destroy BOB is kind of lame (I actually don't mind Lucy killing the Doppelganger though; she and Andy are both the purest, most good-hearted people in the show, so it feels weirdly right that Diane's rescue and the Doppelganger's death are carried out by them). Maybe Freddie vs. BOB will settle with me at some point but for now it kinda irks me.
The other main thing that bothered me about 17 was how rushed Coop's reunion with the cast at the sheriff's station was. He rushes past Andy to get the action, quickly gets the key off Truman without how much back and forth, doesn't say anything to Hawk (or vice versa), same for James, Bobby walks in as an after thought. It just all seemed like a missed opportunity not to soak in a half-dozen different character dynamics now that Coop had finally returned. The most you get out of that is Andy and Lucy's reaction to the Doppelganger's arrival, believing he's the real Coop. On the plus side, "I hope I'll see you all again" is at least a better farewell than what he was able to give at the end of S2. And I did laugh at his enthusiastic response to Gordon arriving right on time.
18, on the other hand, was way more sparse and slower and confounding and, once it settled that the show was about to end -- likely for good -- on yet another cliffhanger, disappointing...but I haven't been able to stop thinking about it since last night.
Re: Audrey
This unresolved plot thread is probably the biggest sore spot for me with this finale, if only because it was an enormously tantalizing plot turn that only just presented itself in the literal final moment before the finale. But there is something weirdly, cosmically appropriate, especially in light of 17 and 18, that Audrey's story this season is simply about being stuck in a torturous dream world...and then waking up out of it completely alarmed.
The other main thing that bothered me about 17 was how rushed Coop's reunion with the cast at the sheriff's station was. He rushes past Andy to get the action, quickly gets the key off Truman without how much back and forth, doesn't say anything to Hawk (or vice versa), same for James, Bobby walks in as an after thought. It just all seemed like a missed opportunity not to soak in a half-dozen different character dynamics now that Coop had finally returned. The most you get out of that is Andy and Lucy's reaction to the Doppelganger's arrival, believing he's the real Coop. On the plus side, "I hope I'll see you all again" is at least a better farewell than what he was able to give at the end of S2. And I did laugh at his enthusiastic response to Gordon arriving right on time.
18, on the other hand, was way more sparse and slower and confounding and, once it settled that the show was about to end -- likely for good -- on yet another cliffhanger, disappointing...but I haven't been able to stop thinking about it since last night.
Re: Audrey
This unresolved plot thread is probably the biggest sore spot for me with this finale, if only because it was an enormously tantalizing plot turn that only just presented itself in the literal final moment before the finale. But there is something weirdly, cosmically appropriate, especially in light of 17 and 18, that Audrey's story this season is simply about being stuck in a torturous dream world...and then waking up out of it completely alarmed.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
Someone earlier said that the sex scene was "out of character" for Cooper in support of it being a different reality and I was like, what, no he's kind of a horndog haha. All the stuff you mentioned plus as Dougie his eyes wandering from the flag to the girl in red heels, and re-discovering the joy of sex with Janey-E.
Coop has a big, enthusiastic "appetite". Coffee, sugary foods, women. He's a Boy Scout sensualist really.
Dougie as the only at peace version of Cooper. That's sobering. Makes sense Lynch would put that scene right in the beginning of 18, before we embark on this journey with Richard Coop.
gray_fox224
Junior Member
What is Judy again?
Given how season two ended with her being chained up in the bank before the explosion, and that's that (outside of the Secret History), it's oddly fitting that her story just ends suddenly, much like it did in season two, haha.
mariachi507
Member
Wasn't one of his recordings to Diane in the original series about things he wished he could do one more time before dying? I think this was after getting shot by Josie. One of them was to "make love with a beautiful woman that he deep feelings for" or something like that.
It's kinda delicious that at the start of the series we see the seedy Vegas, with casinos, prostitutes and killers, and pined for the cosy village of Twin Peaks and it's caring, quirky inhabitants...whereby the start of episode 18, we see a warm loving home there (in Vegas) and a place where everyone loves DougieCoop, even the gangsters with their hearts of gold - but we have to leave it to travel to the unsettling hell of Twin Peaks
Seemingly the name of the Mother creature that appears in parts 1 and 8.
Corpsepyre
Banned
Shadow, take me down
Shadow, take me down with you
For the last time
For the last time
For the last time
For the last time
You're in the water
I'm standing on the shore
Still thinking that I hear your voice
Can you hear me?
Can you hear me?
Can you hear me?
Can you hear me?
For the last time
For the last time
For the last time
For the last time
At night I'm driving in your car
Pretending that we'll leave this town
We're watching all the street lights fade
And now you're just a stranger's dream
I took your picture from the frame
And now you're nothing like you seem
Your shadow fell like last night's rain
----
That last verse though. Damn.
Shadow, take me down with you
For the last time
For the last time
For the last time
For the last time
You're in the water
I'm standing on the shore
Still thinking that I hear your voice
Can you hear me?
Can you hear me?
Can you hear me?
Can you hear me?
For the last time
For the last time
For the last time
For the last time
At night I'm driving in your car
Pretending that we'll leave this town
We're watching all the street lights fade
And now you're just a stranger's dream
I took your picture from the frame
And now you're nothing like you seem
Your shadow fell like last night's rain
----
That last verse though. Damn.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
aka Dick Coop. The Coop who deepfries loaded handguns.
gray_fox224
Junior Member
The alien blob on top of the tree?
stuminus3
Member
The more I try to digest what happens in 17/18 the more I go from 'this can't be the end!' to 'I'll be chewing on this one for years'. It couldn't have been any other way. The one single thing I wanted most from a new Twin Peaks was to feel the way I did after the S2 finale the night it aired all those years back, how I felt as the credits rolled on that cliffhanger. Been a heck off Return one way or another.
I was looking forward to a rewatch of the entire thing from S1 + FWWM after all was said and done but I think I'm going to need some time to digest after 17/18. I think I'll do a rewatch of S3 itself first just to see it in a new context. I think there's a lot to re-evaluate. I mean for one I don't think it matters who the girl was in 8 or what the woodsmen were doing, it's just showing that there's an evil force in the world. Audrey's scenes and awakening are clearly meant to be some sort of reflection to the events of 18. I think a lot of the frustration around the pacing the first time through will no longer be a roadblock - I was terrible for checking the time throughout every episode instead of taking it for what it was.
I was looking forward to a rewatch of the entire thing from S1 + FWWM after all was said and done but I think I'm going to need some time to digest after 17/18. I think I'll do a rewatch of S3 itself first just to see it in a new context. I think there's a lot to re-evaluate. I mean for one I don't think it matters who the girl was in 8 or what the woodsmen were doing, it's just showing that there's an evil force in the world. Audrey's scenes and awakening are clearly meant to be some sort of reflection to the events of 18. I think a lot of the frustration around the pacing the first time through will no longer be a roadblock - I was terrible for checking the time throughout every episode instead of taking it for what it was.
Yeah that last verse resonates with so many characters and scenes in the show. Audrey, Diane, Laura, Cooper. Almost like it was written for the narrative in hindsight.
Poimandres
Member
After sleeping on it, I'm super happy with the ending. Well, maybe "happy" is the wrong word because I feel pretty bloody unsettled, but anything resembling a standard ending would have been a let down at the end of the day. Fucking brilliant.
Honestly you could have plopped Dougie anywhere in the US and I would feel like the locales of Vegas and South Dakota were merely a backdrop. The only real factor was the casino in the beginning. They had no identity besides spreading out the cast. Literally when the story needed to, everyone just flew out to TP in EP17. What really hurt this story was how much time the FBI folks sat around in South Dakota after Hastings died. And what happened to the Navy officers that were trying to figure out what happened to Briggs? I would have thought they might try and resolve why Briggs' head ended up going to the White Lodge.
I don't know about Fire Walk With Me, but this was the Cooper we saw in all the otherwordly scenes in the first three parts.
Part 17 was essentially presented as fiction, so that's how I view his entire awakening. It's the dream outcome for Cooper. He's the hero, loved by everyone and back in action, he gets everything done in no time, his villains are vanquished and he gets the (...a) girl. Nothing about that rings true, unlike the mess his misguided quest turned into in Part 18.
American Girl was such a non sequitur and such a plain character compared to everything else out there, I prefer to believe that her mother is just another character we weren't properly introduced to. I like to imagine that there would be more to see and more characters to meet out there and having her bang on a door just doesn't sound like a good use of such a mysterious magical creature
Intheflorsh
Banned
I'm going to be re-listening to some of the KEXP interviews with the music director Dean Hurley. I have a vague memory of him mentioning the extent to which the Chromatics were told about the plot of the season. It would be interesting to know if those lyrics were written with the ending in mind.
darkwing-buck
Member
WiiredShawn
Member
Yes, he did say that. I do feel like that's an extension of his comment to Audrey: "What I want and what I need are not always the same thing" (paraphrasing) - there's a lustful side to Cooper that stands in contrast to his more romantic sentimentality.
It's like the Log Lady said in one of those introduction videos that I watched earlier: "In a dream, are all the characters really you? Different aspects of you? Do answers come in dreams?" Dougie, Mr. C., perhaps even Richard - they are shades of Cooper. Does Bob so much as "possess" Cooper as much as awaken the cruel impulses that lurk within?
It's also interesting that the Log Lady says: "Look in the mirror. What do you see? Is it a dream, or a nightmare? Are we being introduced against our will? Are they mirrors?"
Seems very relevant to Audrey's situation, and to how we, as the audience, react to the final moments of 17 and 18. The TV is a mirror - and what we see is both dream and nightmare.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
His smile and optimism: gone forever.should've known it all was too good to be true right here
HE LOOKS SO HAPPY
Death Metalist
Member
We went from "She's dead, wrapped in plastic" to "What year is this?". Incredible.
Hamlet Machine
Member
"We are like the dreamer who dreams, and then lives inside the dream"
"But who is the dreamer ?"
Maybe the comedians are the ones that are "like the dreamer who dreams". They live inside the dream (fiction).
But the dreamer is not them, it is either the director or the audience.
They are trapped inside that dream which is not theirs and "forced" to play those roles again and again.
Which is why we get that scene with Audrey after she re-enacted the dance, she screams because she can't escape (I mean Sherilyn Fenn can't espace, she will always be Audrey) ...and this is why we get (almost) the same conclusion with Laura.
Even though she si another person with another life, even though her "mother" is not there any more, to Cooper (and to us through him) she is still Laura Palmer and we want her to be.
My take is that the last "Laura" we hear is a reminder that we will not let her (Sheryl Lee) escape that rôle and well she screams pretty much like Audrey.
I need to rewatch the whole season now
"But who is the dreamer ?"
Maybe the comedians are the ones that are "like the dreamer who dreams". They live inside the dream (fiction).
But the dreamer is not them, it is either the director or the audience.
They are trapped inside that dream which is not theirs and "forced" to play those roles again and again.
Which is why we get that scene with Audrey after she re-enacted the dance, she screams because she can't escape (I mean Sherilyn Fenn can't espace, she will always be Audrey) ...and this is why we get (almost) the same conclusion with Laura.
Even though she si another person with another life, even though her "mother" is not there any more, to Cooper (and to us through him) she is still Laura Palmer and we want her to be.
My take is that the last "Laura" we hear is a reminder that we will not let her (Sheryl Lee) escape that rôle and well she screams pretty much like Audrey.
I need to rewatch the whole season now
Camper Van Beethoven
Banned
darkwing-buck
Member
should've known it all was too good to be true right here
HE LOOKS SO HAPPY
:-(
Evil Coop is probably loaded. He turns away the mousey guy in the arm wrestling place who asks him if he needs money.
darkwing-buck
Member
:'(