Intheflorsh
Banned
The names were frequently mentioned in the credits.
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Twin Peaks Season 3 |OT2| It's Just A Change, Not An End
- Thread starter Joqu
- Start date
The names were frequently mentioned in the credits.
snausagesUK
Member
Nevermind then.
Then what about Bobby and Mike barking at James in prison? Where does that lead? They never resolved that weird high school kid dancing in the background during the Pilot either.
Just goes to show what a hack Lynch is.
i actually more or less agree with this EXCEPT that it justifies the thing overall. there were scenes and even whole episodes that left me feeling great, whether that be a sad kind of great or happy or mystery kind of great - whatever - and that's because even now, david lynch is a great director and can turn pure dogshit into gold, he knows what the hell he's doing when it comes to directing.
but what i'm saying is, at it's core, this season is about nothing and has nothing really to say. i'd be fascinated to hear what dave thinks he was trying to say or why he approached the revival of a 25 year long dead project in this way. hopefully we'll get to hear about that at some point before he dies. but at this point, i think david lynch has said everything he's actually got to say, and stuff like this is just undisciplined ruminations on the same themes, getting lost in it's own vortex.
Im curious, Is Mr. C being punished for escaping the lodge and causing trouble or
Atleast Dougie is okay :')
just for trying to circumvent getting dragged back into the lodge
I am wondering if Cooper's coma actually means more than we thought it did.
The way he woke up and what happened right after makes me reconsider a lot of things, especially with the Audrey scenes getting new meaning with the finale.
There's also the fact that Audrey's world worked like a mirror of reality. I think that's probably their way of having a sort of "it's all a dream" story, that doesn't feel worthless because it was still based off real people doing real things in the "real" world, so basically the line is a bit blurred between what was a dream and what was real.
The dream world seems to shatter when the dreamer realizes where he is, it can't be a coincidence the sheriff station sequence ends right after Cooper's head mentions living inside a dream too.
And it absolutely would justify the insanity that was "punching bob into hell" and co from part 17.
I think the consensus is that the little girl is Sarah Palmer. The frog thing became part of her and linked her with Judy directly.
The way he woke up and what happened right after makes me reconsider a lot of things, especially with the Audrey scenes getting new meaning with the finale.
There's also the fact that Audrey's world worked like a mirror of reality. I think that's probably their way of having a sort of "it's all a dream" story, that doesn't feel worthless because it was still based off real people doing real things in the "real" world, so basically the line is a bit blurred between what was a dream and what was real.
The dream world seems to shatter when the dreamer realizes where he is, it can't be a coincidence the sheriff station sequence ends right after Cooper's head mentions living inside a dream too.
And it absolutely would justify the insanity that was "punching bob into hell" and co from part 17.
I think the consensus is that the little girl is Sarah Palmer. The frog thing became part of her and linked her with Judy directly.
Tony Redgrave
Member
Possibly the second.
My personal theory is that the doppelgangers/shadow selves are the "dwellers in the threshold" that Hawk mentions in season 2. Coop confronted his shadow self with imperfect courage and was trapped for 25 years in the Lodge, which seems to be the "rule". Mr. C got greedy and orchestrated his plan to stay out so he's probably getting destroyed/punished for it.
TheGoldenGunman
Member
I feel a similar way. There were some great moments during the series and it could have been amazing, but overall it was dull with a complex and convoluted ending. I personally found it disappointing as a complete work and not as good as the first season of the show.
Cooper's cold demeanor didn't start till the jump, so it's not exactly far fetched.
The fuck ? He has NO IDEA who is Richard, and he refers to himself as Dale Cooper. (and he doesn't even know what year it is...)
Also, he changed before the motel changed and Diane disappeared.
In what world is "he's Richard now" not far fetched ?
Also, mind blown :
https://imgur.com/a/P4vHg
The Elite
BOSS
Atleast Dougie is okay :')
Giving Dougie, Janey-E and Sonny Jim a happy ending was important to me. Glad they gave me that.
Palpat...the Chalfonts are behind it all!
I rewatched 17 and 18 yesterday.
On Episode 17, I feel the same way I did on Sunday - that, if David Lynch ever were interested in narrative closure, then it's as pitch perfect of an ending to Twin Peaks as there could ever be. Cooper returns, Killer BOB and Mr. C are vanquished, Cooper saves Laura (in what was the most touching, beautiful, and poignant moment in the entirety of The Return, and goddamn that was some amazing work stitching FWWM to newly shot footage), and in true Twins Peaks fashion, she truly can't be saved and the past can't be changed, and disappears. A bloodcurdling scream as she disappears into the ether, a beautiful transition to Julee Cruise, and a haunting, harrowing song taking us to the end credits and the end of Peaks. It's an ending that tickled all my fetishes and wrecked me emotionally and satisfied me completely. But I am not David Lynch, and as such, onto Episode 18.....
I really hated this epilogue on Sunday, but upon rewatch, it a) shouldn't have surprised me at all knowing Lynch's sensibilities, and b) it's damn affecting in its bleak, obtuse, oppressive way and opens all sorts of possibilities up for another season. And it has a final scene that is just as terrifying, if not moreso, in its ramifications than S2's was. And seeing Sheryl Lee scream like no one else can one last time as we descend into darkness.....goddamn.
I guess the way I feel about it is that if The Return is it, then Episode 18 still doesn't quite jive for me and Episode 17 feels like where it should have ended. But if Lynch comes back, then Episode 18 marks a fucking bold, thrilling new direction to take things in.
What. A. Ride.
On Episode 17, I feel the same way I did on Sunday - that, if David Lynch ever were interested in narrative closure, then it's as pitch perfect of an ending to Twin Peaks as there could ever be. Cooper returns, Killer BOB and Mr. C are vanquished, Cooper saves Laura (in what was the most touching, beautiful, and poignant moment in the entirety of The Return, and goddamn that was some amazing work stitching FWWM to newly shot footage), and in true Twins Peaks fashion, she truly can't be saved and the past can't be changed, and disappears. A bloodcurdling scream as she disappears into the ether, a beautiful transition to Julee Cruise, and a haunting, harrowing song taking us to the end credits and the end of Peaks. It's an ending that tickled all my fetishes and wrecked me emotionally and satisfied me completely. But I am not David Lynch, and as such, onto Episode 18.....
I really hated this epilogue on Sunday, but upon rewatch, it a) shouldn't have surprised me at all knowing Lynch's sensibilities, and b) it's damn affecting in its bleak, obtuse, oppressive way and opens all sorts of possibilities up for another season. And it has a final scene that is just as terrifying, if not moreso, in its ramifications than S2's was. And seeing Sheryl Lee scream like no one else can one last time as we descend into darkness.....goddamn.
I guess the way I feel about it is that if The Return is it, then Episode 18 still doesn't quite jive for me and Episode 17 feels like where it should have ended. But if Lynch comes back, then Episode 18 marks a fucking bold, thrilling new direction to take things in.
What. A. Ride.
Wait WHAT ?
The lady Chalfont was ALSO named Tremond ?????
http://twinpeaks.wikia.com/wiki/Mrs._Chalfont
So you have Alice TREMOND that bought the house from a Mrs Chalfront, in the finale ?
The fuck is going on ?
The lady Chalfont was ALSO named Tremond ?????
http://twinpeaks.wikia.com/wiki/Mrs._Chalfont
So you have Alice TREMOND that bought the house from a Mrs Chalfront, in the finale ?
The fuck is going on ?
Charles Brandon
Member
Episode 18 was perfect for me. So close to resolution and then it goes spialling down again in mystery, confusion, intrigue and hopelessness. Arguably there were more clues about the nature of TP reality in that one episode than in the whole rest of the saga combined. It was obtuse but not enough that it felt like a random bag of bollocks, like Mulholland Drive - you feel like there is a possible explanation but you'll never know for sure what it is . I have no doubt that this is intended to be the end, although I suppose he may follow up on it if the circumstances are right. For now, I would just take it as it is.
Daffy Duck
Member
The more I think about it the more I feel like....
voodoopanda
Member
I feel like episode 17 was basically the season 2 episode where laura's killer was finally caught & the murder mystery more-or-less wrapped up. Episode 18 was skipping the rest of season 2 and going straight to the season 2 finale.
I agree with this, except for the dig at Mulholland Drive. There is no one true explanation for that movie (which is also the case for Peaks of course), but I think it's very possible to come to grips with it in various ways. None of it feels random - there's a reason and logic behind everything you see and hear.
How any one viewer chooses to interpret it is up to them (which is why I'm also wary of people trying to get a "definitive" answer out of the Peaks finale - there are many levels on which to interpret it all, a lot of them equally valuable), but nothing in Mulholland Drive feels random for the sake of randomness to me. Definitely not a "random bag of bollocks". I don't know why you singled that movie out because it actually feels like the closest thing to Peaks season 3 Lynch has made before this current season. Especially now that we've got this ending.
I think Laura is the dreamer. Her death is figurative.....she dies in the sense her trauma breaks anything that she was.
Her rape is reinvented. Her mother's omissions are re-dreamt into being a figure of absolute grievance; her father's actions blamed on being uncontrollably possessed.
Everything else is a world imagined; a world where Laura feels like people care, where people apply justice, where people don't stand by.
Like a dream, everything doesn't have a nicely wrapped ending. A lot doesn't make sense and has no context. It makes you feel like you are also in a dream.
Laura reawakens in the end, and the trauma reenters. I don't think she ever died.
well thats the only way my brain can make sense of it
Her rape is reinvented. Her mother's omissions are re-dreamt into being a figure of absolute grievance; her father's actions blamed on being uncontrollably possessed.
Everything else is a world imagined; a world where Laura feels like people care, where people apply justice, where people don't stand by.
Like a dream, everything doesn't have a nicely wrapped ending. A lot doesn't make sense and has no context. It makes you feel like you are also in a dream.
Laura reawakens in the end, and the trauma reenters. I don't think she ever died.
well thats the only way my brain can make sense of it
Maybe there's no going back to normal life after 25 years in hell.
Charles Brandon
Member
That was bad wording. I meant that TP was like MH, ie NOT a random bag of bollocks!
Alec
Member
In FWWM/Missing Pieces, it was mentioned that when the Chalfonts lived in the trailer park, there was a family ALSO named Chalfont that lived in the same spot before they did. Which is basically exactly what happened in Season 2 with the Tremonds. So yes, the creamed corn lady and her grandson have gone by both names, Chalfont and Tremond. Very weird.
Edit, I see the screenshots for this convo were linked by you a few posts up.
Aaaah gotcha. Sorry if I came on strong, you're a man of taste.
Charles Brandon
Member
No problem, my post was very poorly phrased. Love MD.
HashtagLapsed
Member
So, who was The Jumping Man?
plagiarize
Banned
Judy.
MisterR
Member
Initially didn't like episode 18 after watching it on Sunday, and since then I haven't been able to stop thinking about it and even dreaming about it. It really is an amazing piece of work. That ending now is so good in retrospect. Just an iconic scene. I'll be rewatching and rethinking the return for a long time. To me it was just fantastic as a total package. I really want more of Twin Peaks, but at the same time, the ending was just about perfect.
I don't have many, but as far as grievances and disappointments with The Return:
- I both loved Dougie and the arc of Cooper's return, so I wasn't disappointed with so little Cooper (and what we did get was glorious - Kyle still embodies the character perfectly), BUT, I was quite disappointed that Cooper didn't really any scenes at all with Truman/Lucy/Andy/Hawk/Bobby/etc. aside from one super brief scene they all shared together. I love Maclachlan's Cooper and his relationships with those characters so much that even 10 minutes spent with them before being sucked into the ether would have satisfied me. Not getting that, to quote the disastrous True Detective S2, was like blue balls in your heart.
- I'm fairly devastated and deeply disappointed that Ray Wise only had 10 seconds of screentime and 2 words of dialogue over 18 episodes. What a waste of an immense talent.
- I don't need, nor do I expect, narrative (or even thematic) closure from Lynch, but having seen the whole show, the vignettes of randoms at the Roadhouse were ultimately quite superfluous.
- too many shitty non-actors. Chrysta Bell (who clearly is only there because Lynch is a pervert), the owner of the Palmer house (no, I don't care that she's the owner of the real life exterior; it almost ruined that final scene having her alongside a great actor like Maclachlan),
, etc.
- what new stuff we did get from Angelo Badalamenti was exquisite, I just wish there was more of it.
- I both loved Dougie and the arc of Cooper's return, so I wasn't disappointed with so little Cooper (and what we did get was glorious - Kyle still embodies the character perfectly), BUT, I was quite disappointed that Cooper didn't really any scenes at all with Truman/Lucy/Andy/Hawk/Bobby/etc. aside from one super brief scene they all shared together. I love Maclachlan's Cooper and his relationships with those characters so much that even 10 minutes spent with them before being sucked into the ether would have satisfied me. Not getting that, to quote the disastrous True Detective S2, was like blue balls in your heart.
- I'm fairly devastated and deeply disappointed that Ray Wise only had 10 seconds of screentime and 2 words of dialogue over 18 episodes. What a waste of an immense talent.
- I don't need, nor do I expect, narrative (or even thematic) closure from Lynch, but having seen the whole show, the vignettes of randoms at the Roadhouse were ultimately quite superfluous.
- too many shitty non-actors. Chrysta Bell (who clearly is only there because Lynch is a pervert), the owner of the Palmer house (no, I don't care that she's the owner of the real life exterior; it almost ruined that final scene having her alongside a great actor like Maclachlan),
David Lynch
- what new stuff we did get from Angelo Badalamenti was exquisite, I just wish there was more of it.
plagiarize
Banned
Yeah. I feel a lot like this. If we get more, I think Part 18 will be an amazing launch into a new adventure.
Of all the things I expected Twin Peaks to remind me of, Phantasm wasn't on that list. The end of Part 17 and Part 18 felt very Phantasm to me. If this is the end of the story, I think it works. I just don't know what I think it means. I've seen loads of really interesting theories and I think that's good.
If you really want to put your fingers in your ears and imagine a happy ending for Coop, you can. You can tell yourself that it's Coop who walks through the red door, and his Tulpa that he sent after Judy.
I mean, I don't think that's intended at all, but I don't think you can easily disprove it.
Did Laura grow up and have a life in the universe where Pete goes fishing? I'm thinking not, but again, debatable.
I've seen good speculation that the end is Laura waking up, much as Audrey did.
Of course this ending wasn't what I really wanted but it was pretty much what I was expecting deep down. No coop having norma's cherry pie or coffee.
So when the coops are created does that influence the current ones? My thought was that when dougie was created he had the completely good hearted childlike wonder that cooper had in the original series. This in turn made the cooper we were with more robotic, he just wanted to complete his mission.
I'm curious as to what The Final Dossier is going to bring to light.
So when the coops are created does that influence the current ones? My thought was that when dougie was created he had the completely good hearted childlike wonder that cooper had in the original series. This in turn made the cooper we were with more robotic, he just wanted to complete his mission.
I'm curious as to what The Final Dossier is going to bring to light.
MisterR
Member
Maybe things that actually require you to think to get a deeper enjoyment out of actually are of much deeper quality and have a lasting quality that easy to digest, eager to please entertainment lacks?
I keep thinking 'oh so this must be what happened' and starting to write it down but really I think the whole point is to never really know, I think it was David Lynch who said in an interview something along the lines of 'people only want closure so they have an excuse to forget about you' and he's completely right. By not giving you answers he forces you to ponder, to process and ultimately enjoy everything else that much more, can't think of any other TV show this work with (Imagine if GoT ended with Bran yelling 'what year is this??') but The Return has been so engaging and fascinating on so many levels that being forced to reflect on it repeatedly is a really warming, pleasant experience.
I had no idea what to expect from this season but I think ultimately Lynch & Frost recreated the sensation of watching Twin Peaks perfectly, it's homely and welcoming and at the same time terrifying and abstract, it's really everything I could have hoped for.
I had no idea what to expect from this season but I think ultimately Lynch & Frost recreated the sensation of watching Twin Peaks perfectly, it's homely and welcoming and at the same time terrifying and abstract, it's really everything I could have hoped for.
VistraNorrez
Member
The season 2 finale is about the terror of a friend or loved one not being who you think they are and the season 3 finale is about the terror of being unsure of who you are.
In many ways that makes Part 18 more terrifying than the Episode 29.
In many ways that makes Part 18 more terrifying than the Episode 29.
stuminus3
Member
OK a rewatch of S3 seems like a good thing to be doing. What was confusing at first is now enthralling, given context.
One thing I'm thinking about the "Laura is the one" concept; I think line is pure meta. It's not that Laura literally exists to be some magical force of light against evil (that doesn't even make any sense when you look at her life). "Laura is the one" simply means "Twin Peaks is about Laura Palmer".
That was the hook of the original show. That's why FWWM is so important. That's why 18 ends the way it does. None of it matters without the tragedy that is the life of Laura Palmer. Ultimately it doesn't matter what happens after she wakes up to herself at the end of 18 - no matter how many times we loop back to try and save her (or "rewatch the show" if you want to keep being meta) you can't put the genie back in the bottle, you take away Laura's suffering and there's no show.
See how in S8 the Fireman creates a weird orange ball and Laura's homecoming photo appears in it? There's an orange circle of light coming through the mist in the opening credits of every episode, and that same iconic photograph is superimposed over it.
One thing I'm thinking about the "Laura is the one" concept; I think line is pure meta. It's not that Laura literally exists to be some magical force of light against evil (that doesn't even make any sense when you look at her life). "Laura is the one" simply means "Twin Peaks is about Laura Palmer".
That was the hook of the original show. That's why FWWM is so important. That's why 18 ends the way it does. None of it matters without the tragedy that is the life of Laura Palmer. Ultimately it doesn't matter what happens after she wakes up to herself at the end of 18 - no matter how many times we loop back to try and save her (or "rewatch the show" if you want to keep being meta) you can't put the genie back in the bottle, you take away Laura's suffering and there's no show.
See how in S8 the Fireman creates a weird orange ball and Laura's homecoming photo appears in it? There's an orange circle of light coming through the mist in the opening credits of every episode, and that same iconic photograph is superimposed over it.
Yeahl I was hoping for a bullshit ending o-en to interpretation, if everything was neatly wrapped up this would not have been TP.
The Elite
BOSS
I think so.
The most iconic moment of the two part finale was the spliced together footage of current content with FWWM. That was historic for me and it brought me to tears.
Tony Redgrave
Member
Even more I think, if anything season 2's ending was more straightforward in the sense that you simply knew that was not Coop, possessed or Doppelganger or whatever.
This has so many potential interpretations and loose ends that leaves much, much more room for discussion.
stuminus3
Member
Oh wow I didn't even consider something that haha. Would explain the odd transformation in Coop's character in 18 if this was what happened at least!
Charles Brandon
Member
So in episode one the Fireman tells Coop - "remember Richard and Linda"
New theory.
Cooper is The Dreamer, Cooper is Richard, Twin Peaks from the beginning to Part 18 is his dream. when he wakes in Odessa, that's the real world. Linda is his wife? Girlfriend?
HIs dream is all about himself and the different sides to his personality. The hero, the villain, the family man. When he wakes he isn't quite Coop but he isn't quite Mr C either, he's all of them together, he's Richard.
Laura Palmer represents his quest to be a better man, to be the hero but even in his dream, his quest fails.
When he wakes he's having some kind of psychotic episode where his dream self has leaked into his real personality. He's confused, he's shooting his gun around and dragging a random woman to a random place for no reason.
Although that doesn't explain what happens right at the end...
New theory.
Cooper is The Dreamer, Cooper is Richard, Twin Peaks from the beginning to Part 18 is his dream. when he wakes in Odessa, that's the real world. Linda is his wife? Girlfriend?
HIs dream is all about himself and the different sides to his personality. The hero, the villain, the family man. When he wakes he isn't quite Coop but he isn't quite Mr C either, he's all of them together, he's Richard.
Laura Palmer represents his quest to be a better man, to be the hero but even in his dream, his quest fails.
When he wakes he's having some kind of psychotic episode where his dream self has leaked into his real personality. He's confused, he's shooting his gun around and dragging a random woman to a random place for no reason.
Although that doesn't explain what happens right at the end...
The Elite
BOSS
Maybe that's why Diane seems to be so disturbed by him during their sex scene? She knows it's not him just like she knew Mr. C wasn't the real Coop when she kissed him. I don't know how the Richard/Linda letter plays into it but it's just a theory.
I could buy into it but I think Cooper is too driven to make a switch like that.
Reading everyone's impressions. I think Twin Peaks Season 3 was a success.
Charles Brandon
Member
One thing that bothered me about that scene was 'Dougie' says "Home" in that whacked out manner from when Cooper was Dougie. But real Dougie wouldn't have said "home" like that. Real Dougie wasn't mentally incapacitated like Cooper Dougie was. The only person who would know to say "home" in that was Cooper himself.
Corpsepyre
Banned
Whatever the theory, the one thing I will never accept is that this was all a dream, starting from 1990. Fuck that shit. Things can be escapist, otherworldly and surreal without bringing the tired old 'it was all a dream' trope into the mix. I know he's fucked around with that in other films of his, but I don't buy it here at all.
I'm growing on Part 18 as I've seen theories describing it as bleak and others as hopeful. You can take the ending as evil winning or good getting its second (or third) wind.
It'd be nice if a Season 4 or 2nd film happens and it'd be even better if the Final Dossier explains a lot of shit when that drops in October (Like that secret meeting between Briggs, Cooper, and Cole that was mentioned), but I'm starting to accept the idea that this may really be the end of Twin Peaks.
It'd be nice if a Season 4 or 2nd film happens and it'd be even better if the Final Dossier explains a lot of shit when that drops in October (Like that secret meeting between Briggs, Cooper, and Cole that was mentioned), but I'm starting to accept the idea that this may really be the end of Twin Peaks.
Funny that so many people loved the FWWM footage included in part 17. I was kind of annoyed with it at the time, thinking so much of this penultimate episode was being spent on a clip show, haha. I'd probably appreciate it more on rewatch.
I don't really take the dream/dreamer stuff super literally. For me, what all the dream references boil down to is that life -- both in the fictional world of Twin Peaks but in real life too -- we can make our way to do right, but some weird shit we can't explain or control will always inexplicably pop up from around the corner to thwart us. Like living in a dream, you have a handle on your surroundings until you suddenly don't and shit goes really sideways.
I don't really take the dream/dreamer stuff super literally. For me, what all the dream references boil down to is that life -- both in the fictional world of Twin Peaks but in real life too -- we can make our way to do right, but some weird shit we can't explain or control will always inexplicably pop up from around the corner to thwart us. Like living in a dream, you have a handle on your surroundings until you suddenly don't and shit goes really sideways.
31GhostsIV
Banned
I don't buy that at all. Mr C/BOB wants to meet with Judy, pretty long way to go about it when Jumping Man never even left the room above the convenience store.
The Elite
BOSS
I think most people don't want their favourite shows to end with "it was all a dream". I don't buy into it here either. I think there is a theme of waking up this season but I don't think that necessarily means everything was a dream.
Tony Redgrave
Member
We have to assume the Tulpas have "implanted memories" somehow, that Dougie probably thinks he's and always was Douglas Jones and doesn't know anything about Coop, might even have Dougie Coop's memories and the "Home" was probably a nudge to Dougie's one-liners. That's what I think at least.
There's room for interpretation but for me there's no doubt Coop is 100% almost inhumanely driven to accomplish his mission, no way he would go back with the Jones at that point.
Charles Brandon
Member
There are strong hints though. All that stuff about The Dreamer. Audrey's ending. Major Briggs' talking to Bobby. Laura's dreams of Cooper. Cooper's dream of The Giant/Fireman It's not like dreams aren't an explicit and common theme running through the series.
uncle_koploski
Banned
I think Laura screaming at the end signifies that it was not all one dream.