Death Metalist
Member
It's less about the footage and more about "Holy shit COOP is now on some Quantum Leap shit!"
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Twin Peaks Season 3 |OT2| It's Just A Change, Not An End
- Thread starter Joqu
- Start date
It's less about the footage and more about "Holy shit COOP is now on some Quantum Leap shit!"
Death Metalist
Member
Corpsepyre
Banned
I know dreams and visions are explicitly woven into the show, and have been since the start, but I can never imagine this to be one of those awful cliche that this entire exercise has been someone's dream in the very end. Just doesn't add up. It just takes out the mystical and escapist element so much and we end up with nothing being of consequence. That and the final scene.
Know what I think is the biggest mystery left unsolved?
What the heck is the big deal about Laura Palmer? She wasn't important to anything seemingly. It looked like she was sent into the world in episode 8 for some grand destiny, but we sure didn't see it.
"Laura is the one". Yeah sure, whatever Log Lady.
What the heck is the big deal about Laura Palmer? She wasn't important to anything seemingly. It looked like she was sent into the world in episode 8 for some grand destiny, but we sure didn't see it.
"Laura is the one". Yeah sure, whatever Log Lady.
stuminus3
Member
Oh snap, now we're really going down the rabbit hole. :O
I don't think that's the intended angle at all. If anything Twin Peaks - or Lynch in general - subverts the trope. I mean really the whole thing is just the imaginations of David Lynch and Mark Frost made real. They are the dreamers, and we're living inside their dream.
Actually a lot of it makes me feel like those moments when you wake up from a really deep dream and you're not sure what was real and what was dream because the emotions are so strong.
Is it the future, or is it the past? I just posted about that. LOL.
Don Draper's Hat
Member
At least having the whole thing take place in a snow globe is original. A "it's all a dream" thing is such a nothing way to end.
I'd like to hope it isn't the case.
I'd like to hope it isn't the case.
HashtagLapsed
Member
The show was about a girl being abused and having a horrible, painful life and the people who care about her and want to help. I mean, thats what the show was.
I'm rewatching some scenes and the ending of the police station part in part 17 is interesting. The clock on the wall is stuck at 2.53. the same time that the evolution of the arm mentions in episode 2, the time where Mr. C and Cooper were supposed to switch places. "253, time and time again, Bob... Bob.. Bob...".
A little bit before that, the arm says that the doppelgänger has to go back in before Cooper can go out. Mr. C ruined that plan, but isn't it weird that Cooper was able to return in episode 16 even though Mr.C is still hasn't gone back in? Maybe "before you can go out" isn't returning to that world, but waking up somehow. There's Cooper's face superimposed, he is observing what is going on, says "we live in a dream" and everything turns black.
A little bit before that, the arm says that the doppelgänger has to go back in before Cooper can go out. Mr. C ruined that plan, but isn't it weird that Cooper was able to return in episode 16 even though Mr.C is still hasn't gone back in? Maybe "before you can go out" isn't returning to that world, but waking up somehow. There's Cooper's face superimposed, he is observing what is going on, says "we live in a dream" and everything turns black.
Coop knew her death resulted in the darkest timeline, so he had to go back and save her, for the good of the entire world, no matter the cost.
In 17 he said goodbye, and he hoped to see the people someday, as they are. He knew the timeline could drastically change everyone.
Hubrus and Lodge Knowledge made him fuck up in the end.
Charles Brandon
Member
That's what the first two series were about (and FWWM) but this series was more about the metaphysics surrounding the Palmer/BOB rapes and murders. We are clearly shown Laura being sent to the earth as some sort of antidote to The Mother and her spawn. But what does she achieve.
I suppose by sacrificing herself to BOB, which she did voluntarily she paved the way for Coop to enter the story and it is Coop who brings about the final defeat of BOB, via Freddie and possibly he goes on to defeat The Mother/Judy (are they the same?) but he doesn't seem to have got there yet.
I mean, if you go with the "he took Dougie's place and sent his tulpa with Diane" headcanon you're essentially saying that in the end, Cooper's a selfish creep who sent a person (sorta) he created off to do his extremely risky job while he stole someone else's identity and family.
I'm not sure why that's preferable to Cooper selflessly going off to save Laura but getting changed in the process, hah.
Corpsepyre
Banned
I didn't quite get what happened when it all turned black and we see Coop, Diane and Gordon walking towards the room at the hotel. Was there a time jump, or were they teleported? No idea.
Tony Redgrave
Member
Well, she is definitely presented to us as the antithesis of whatever is within Sarah but Bob abused and killed her before she could do whatever she was supposed to. Coop went into the past to save her and make her confront Sarah (which was no doubt The Giant and Coop's plan) but she was spirited away. The whole point of episode 18 is that they were tricked and she was unable to fulfill her role again.
It's up to interpretation if you want to think all that was some bait and switch or meta-commentary on conventional narratives or whatever but technically she is the one, she's just robbed of her chance every time.
EDIT- It is worth noting that even if Sarah was the girl who swallowed the frogmoth, it is likely that the evil entity itself mother/experiment whatever didn't come to reside within her fully until the beginning of season 3 when it escaped through the glass box, that possibly explains why Sarah was so freaked out in her first scenes too. So, to make Laura fulfill her role you literally should make sure she's alive to confront Sarah in the present which is what Coop was, in fact, doing.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Which makes me think that we misunderstood what was being said in Cole's Bellucci-dream:.
I, like most people kinda read the "who" as indicating a certain person within the cast/story whereas with hindsight I believe its more of an spiritual "who". As in, what is the dreamer's true nature, the true self that manufactures the dream and chooses to live within it.
One interesting thing there is that Cooper has the FBI pin on when they come out of the dark. He didn't have any at the police station.
plagiarize
Banned
He had already met Judy. And didn't know who Judy was.
So no reason it can't be the jumping man.
Plus we know the jumping man is connected to Sarah somehow.
Corpsepyre
Banned
Damn. Didn't notice that. WHAT COULD IT POSSIBLY MEAN?!
This just a brain fart but it could it be that season 3 is cooper still trapped in the lodge and having an extended dream about what he will do once he leaves to save the day? The scene in 17 where he leaves the red room seems similar to the first time when he leaves the red room, following the one armed man and walking through the corridors with the red curtain. What if the second time he leaves the red room is actually when he leaves the lodge for the first time? That's when he actually takes his plan to save Laura and fucks everything up, as in the real cooper is a lot more flawed compared to the dream Dougie/Cooper whom everyone loves unconditionally.
But yeah I haven't thought hard enough whether this makes any sense lol.
It's just the contrast between episode 18 and the rest of the series feels like Mulhulland Drive after they visit club Silencio.
But yeah I haven't thought hard enough whether this makes any sense lol.
It's just the contrast between episode 18 and the rest of the series feels like Mulhulland Drive after they visit club Silencio.
Just finished episode 8. Fuck Lynch is a genius. That sequence distilled into pure images exactly what Lynch is all about. The dehumanization, alienation and destruction caused by human industrial endeavours in the modern world. I don't agree with him completely but I see where he's coming from. The B&W looked gorgeous.
Oh and it also explains a lot about the mythology of the series I guess.
Edit: But probably still too heavy on the literal symbolisms but I guess that's just become Lynch's thing since FWWM.
Oh and it also explains a lot about the mythology of the series I guess.
Edit: But probably still too heavy on the literal symbolisms but I guess that's just become Lynch's thing since FWWM.
31GhostsIV
Banned
What if everything after DougieCoop going into a Coma is Coop's dream and he never really woke up from it?
Too many dreams.
HashtagLapsed
Member
Well, it would depend on how literally you accept all of those things as an ontology.
The series ended with Jeffries alluding to infinity, Judy being located at various points on the symbol of infinity and Laura screaming, with a fractured identity.
plagiarize
Banned
Actually the very ending reminding me a lot of the Quantum Leap finale. Agent Cooper never made it home.
Charles Brandon
Member
but it wasn't an infinity symbol was it? It was an eight. I know infinity makes more sense and has a pleasing quality with respect to increasing circularity of the plot but it wasn't an infinity symbol.
Brian_FETO
Banned
I could be mistaken, but doesn't it start as an 8, then becomes an infinity symbol?
Death Metalist
Member
I too was reminded of that as well, Quantum Leap ended beautifully. I found it to be much more emotionally resonating than this one but they can't be compared since they both are going after very different things.
I was waiting for the infinity symbol, but it never turned over.
My jaw dropped at the interweaved cut of Cooper saving young Laura within the forest. Lynch you mad genius, I forgot for a moment it was FWWM footage and thought it was cut material. And then Pete going fishing as usual with no girl wrapped in plastic... a real emotional tearjerker.
Charles Brandon
Member
Didn't coop see an eight on the wooden post at some point in the last episode? when was that? (Or was it a six?)
Brian_FETO
Banned
It doesn't turn horizontal but I thought the loops shift to be equal-sized
It was absolutely beautiful
plagiarize
Banned
It was a six. It's the same 6 you see a few other times. First seen in fire walk with me. Seen in this series when the kid gets run over.
Charles Brandon
Member
Thanks.
Re: infinity, can it be said to be an infinity symbol if it isn't horizontal?
Yes.
My question with regards to the symbol was what was that little black orb? Was it supposed to represent Judy or BOB or something else?
Yeah youre right, the black dot on it may represent Coops current location in the universe, by shifting the dot Phillip Jeffries helped Coop time travel.
No - the implication is he killed her while on drugs and she's in that trailer. Then he kills himself.
I did it. The dougie scenes are less maddening because you don't have to wait a week between episodes. You pick up on a few more threads because they're closer together. It's a better watch as a binge.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds, fire walk with me."
Love reading the discussion and dissection on 17 & 18 by everyone here. Shed some new light/dark on current dream events. How they left it at the end of 18 was pretty much perfect for me personally.
One chants out between two worlds, fire walk with me."
Love reading the discussion and dissection on 17 & 18 by everyone here. Shed some new light/dark on current dream events. How they left it at the end of 18 was pretty much perfect for me personally.
VistraNorrez
Member
What distinguishes an 8 from the ∞ tends to be that an 8 has a smaller loop on top and the ∞ tends to be equal. It's no always the case, but I think is important here.
She represents hope, that's about it.
Daffy Duck
Member
Time is a flat circle.
uncle_koploski
Banned
there are infinite time lines.
Phillip Jeffries selected the one where Laura is still alive and brought Cooper to her.
Phillip Jeffries selected the one where Laura is still alive and brought Cooper to her.
He flips the infinity symbol, like you flip a casette to rewind it.
I think Coop and Diane travel to another infinity when they go into the electricity, but that is where Laura went after Judy snatched her in the woods.
Charles Brandon
Member
If the 8 does represent the looping nature of Coop's reality and the black dot is Coop himself, then the movement of the dot suggests that Coop is returning to the "waist" of the 8. The place he is fated to return to again and again as he follows the infinite loop. I guess that is February 1989, the night of the killing?
I didn't really like the look of Cooper spying from the woods -- the mismatch showed, even in black and white -- but the sequence with him guiding Laura away to the White Lodge as the black and white turns to color was a really nice touch.
Laura's murder was the consequence of a lot of dark forces at work beneath the surface (Leland/BOB, drug and sex trafficking rings, etc.) that blew up a lot of these forces into the open. One of Lynch's biggest preoccupations is the darkness hiding within seemingly idyllic small town America, and Laura's death is the catalyst that pulls the curtain back on that darkness.
More cosmically, re: part 8, I'd guess the Fireman -- seeing/knowing that Judy was possessing Sarah Palmer -- sent Laura down to Earth in the hopes that having Laura as her child would help suppress Judy within Sarah. But it worked in the opposite way: BOB/Leland abused and molested Laura, trying to corrupt 'the good one' of the family, which created a lot of garmonbozia for Sarah/Judy to feed off of.
plagiarize
Banned
I'm pretty sure Steven and Gretchen are wearing the same clothes they were wearing when they fled her apartment, so I'm not sure it necessarily follows. Was that the same gun Becky had?
I think they would have made it clear if the intention was that Steven had really killed Becky.
VistraNorrez
Member
As someone who has listened to every one of those, you get used to it. It's a fun podcast with some good insight.