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Twin Peaks Season 3 |OT2| It's Just A Change, Not An End
- Thread starter Joqu
- Start date
Fluffhead14
Member
Mulholland Drive's narrative makes a lot more sense than whatever this show was trying to do.
The current theory is it has nothing to do with the scene following. It's from the past, what happened with Diane and Bad Coop. Her tulpa's memory got twisted and said that he raped her. But really you can tell it's Bad Coop, not Coop. "Come here to me." His face was showing zero emotion. She covered his face because she knew it was not him. Beforehand she sees her tupla.
When Coop wakes up in the hotel it's not the same hotel, the same car, or the same time. They're just cut together to confuse us. When they go into "430", he wakes up in the hotel.
plagiarize
Banned
I think that's about the most likely year that a 4th season would air in. Much later and people will be getting too old. But I can't see it happening sooner than that, either. God I hope we get some confirmation one way or another this month if more is happening or not.
I should e-mail Sabrina Sutherland. Been really struggling to put my thoughts together though.
« David can you teach milenials delayed gratification? »
« WELL, I GUESS WE CAN DO A 1000 YEAR BREAK, YES. »
Lol, that reminds me of a Twitter thread I just read earlier about how a guy thinks Season 4 will happen in 2020.
https://twitter.com/fatecolossal/status/904911292531691522
There was a shot that kind of lingered on their trailer for a bit when Mark Frost's character went back to the trailer park and told Carl, and that seemed to imply to me that she was dead inside the trailer, but maybe that's just my interpretation of it. It could be misdirection to keep it vague but idk, I took it as though he did kill her.
Charles Brandon
Member
Does that hold water? It's red hair, present day Diane in the car after 430, not Diane who was raped by Mr C, didn't that happen 20 years ago? She's wearing the same clothes as pre 430 isn't she?
Edit: I like the idea though
I dunno. They're talking about something he did to "her" that leads to him killing himself and there is that implication of looking at the trailer after. But if you're right and they're wearing the same clothes, then maybe it is directly after and they're just talking about the cheating and her shooting at the door. We didn't ever actually see her go to the RR after Shelly told her to come over, did we?
The way time jumps around within an episode makes it hard for me to remember some of this, hah.
Anyway, Bobby not being totally wrecked when he shows up in the finale is part of the reason I think she didn't die. Though maybe it takes place after that? If such a thing is even possible.
It's amazing that the show sets you up for the horror of a confrontation between Laura and a monster, a monstrous Sarah Palmer, or both, and then the reveal manages to be scarier than what you're dreading. All of that was an abstraction. Sarah doesn't want her. She's not here for her and she never will be.
It's certainly a massive undertaking. Season 3 just finished airing in September 2017. S3 began filming in September 2015 and wrapped in April 2016. So it had an 8 month shoot and 11 months of post-production. Then add to that at least 12 months on writing it, and casting/pre-production went 11 months from October 2014 to August 2015.
That's roughly 42 months to get S3 made. 3.5 years. So even if Frost/Lynch wanted to do a S4, and if it were to be as long as S3, yeah, I'm thinking 2021 at the absolute earliest.
What "current theory" is it ? Did you mean the consensus or what you think happened ?
Because there's a lot of holes in that theory.
- They're old
- Cooper was acting like bad Coop even after this scene
- Cooper noticed the Motel changed
- Creepy or not, in no way was this a rape
- She said he had a twisted smile, this Cooper didn't smile at all
Charles Brandon
Member
What if bad coop is regular coop but further down his own timeline, after losing his own goodness by using it to manufacture Dougie?
the greatest tragedy the ending showed I think is that cooper wants, more than anything, to save laura. Thats it. That is his goal. And he was 100% sure taking her to her home would do it.
His confusion was hard to watch. what kills me tho is that this was by far the best premise o the entire season, and just when it was getting extremely interesting, it ended or another 25 years.
Seasons 1 and hal of 2 were the most interesting part, so when it ended the way it did, even with tha clifhanger, at least the promise was fulfilled.
His confusion was hard to watch. what kills me tho is that this was by far the best premise o the entire season, and just when it was getting extremely interesting, it ended or another 25 years.
Seasons 1 and hal of 2 were the most interesting part, so when it ended the way it did, even with tha clifhanger, at least the promise was fulfilled.
Airola
Member
I think the problem people have with the ending of S3 is not really the cliffhanger. It's a good ending. It's just the disappointment that none of the things people might've felt were pointless and boring in the previous episodes ended up being just that. People held up hope that there would at least be something that upon future viewings would make those scenes feel less pointless and boring.
Like for example the Jacoby scenes. People were hoping there would be something that in retrospect would make those scenes more interesting to watch. But as the last two episodes didn't give any of that, those scenes remain pointless and boring to these people.
The ending itself is good and extremely interesting, but it just solified the thought that most of the season wasn't good or interesting. At least with season 2 there was no need for anyone to hang out hope for something to make the Evelyn Marsh or Little Nicky scenes better after seeing something give them a new context in the last episode. The things we saw earlier in season 2 were either their own full things that lead to somewhere, or they were interesting to watch even if they didn't get a resolution in season 2 finale.
So I don't think the season 3 ending and the reactions to that is comparable at all to season 2 ending and reactions to that.
What comes to the DREAMER thing, I think this is not about which of the characters are the dreamers. I think the dreamer is whoever Lynch and Frost thinks is God and the Creator of all things. Now, it could be that they think people as a collective are God and then everyone would be the dreamer. But anyway I think this is about the dreamer being the ultimate creative force that is behind everything.
Cooper is Richard in the sense Mike is Philip Gerard or Bob is Leland.
Cooper is like Mrs. Tremond and her grandson now.
Cooper 'inhabits' Richard.
Diane 'inhabits' Linda.
Laura 'inhabits' Carrie.
In the last scene Carrie is the only one who still is who she is in that reality. She is Carrie who doesn't know a thing about Laura.
And Richard has no clue what's going on because at that point Cooper is leading without actually even knowing he's not Cooper but Richard.
They can't really physically truly exist in another reality so they are "spirits" there.
Maybe Mrs. Tremond also had her own reality, but as she went into another, it was unfamiliar to her at first too, but later she found out her mission and appeared to some people at certain points in their lives to lead them to something.
I would be interested to see season 4 being told from the perspective of the spirits. The real world they walk in would feel alien and different for them because they come from somewhere else.
Like for example the Jacoby scenes. People were hoping there would be something that in retrospect would make those scenes more interesting to watch. But as the last two episodes didn't give any of that, those scenes remain pointless and boring to these people.
The ending itself is good and extremely interesting, but it just solified the thought that most of the season wasn't good or interesting. At least with season 2 there was no need for anyone to hang out hope for something to make the Evelyn Marsh or Little Nicky scenes better after seeing something give them a new context in the last episode. The things we saw earlier in season 2 were either their own full things that lead to somewhere, or they were interesting to watch even if they didn't get a resolution in season 2 finale.
So I don't think the season 3 ending and the reactions to that is comparable at all to season 2 ending and reactions to that.
What comes to the DREAMER thing, I think this is not about which of the characters are the dreamers. I think the dreamer is whoever Lynch and Frost thinks is God and the Creator of all things. Now, it could be that they think people as a collective are God and then everyone would be the dreamer. But anyway I think this is about the dreamer being the ultimate creative force that is behind everything.
Cooper is Richard in the sense Mike is Philip Gerard or Bob is Leland.
Cooper is like Mrs. Tremond and her grandson now.
Cooper 'inhabits' Richard.
Diane 'inhabits' Linda.
Laura 'inhabits' Carrie.
In the last scene Carrie is the only one who still is who she is in that reality. She is Carrie who doesn't know a thing about Laura.
And Richard has no clue what's going on because at that point Cooper is leading without actually even knowing he's not Cooper but Richard.
They can't really physically truly exist in another reality so they are "spirits" there.
Maybe Mrs. Tremond also had her own reality, but as she went into another, it was unfamiliar to her at first too, but later she found out her mission and appeared to some people at certain points in their lives to lead them to something.
I would be interested to see season 4 being told from the perspective of the spirits. The real world they walk in would feel alien and different for them because they come from somewhere else.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
There is something that bothers me about Coops decision to go back in time and pluck Laura out from her grim fate. I guess it's because Coop doesn't know, or maybe this is what Laura has been whispering into his ear all along but at the end of FWWM Laura is finally at peace moments before she dies. She comes to understand that her father is being possessed by a monster, and she realizes that she will be thwarting him on some level by dying with the ring on.
FWWM's most powerful moment to me was how Laura's death was her most peaceful moment. She had a life that was coming apart at the seams and this one act put her at ease while at the same time confirming that she was a good person since she essentially sacrificed herself to prevent BOB from taking her.
Yet Coop decides that saving Laura and undoing that is better? I guess because BOB is a trans-dimensional being killing him in any reality kills him in all realities? But we still see Leland peer out the window at Laura before she gets on James' Bike which leads me to assume that BOB is still possessing Leland in that time so what exactly did Coop accomplish? If Laura never dies then all this means is that BOB will continue to terrorize twin peaks as Leland. Coop has to know this since he was there when BOB revealed himself.
FWWM's most powerful moment to me was how Laura's death was her most peaceful moment. She had a life that was coming apart at the seams and this one act put her at ease while at the same time confirming that she was a good person since she essentially sacrificed herself to prevent BOB from taking her.
Yet Coop decides that saving Laura and undoing that is better? I guess because BOB is a trans-dimensional being killing him in any reality kills him in all realities? But we still see Leland peer out the window at Laura before she gets on James' Bike which leads me to assume that BOB is still possessing Leland in that time so what exactly did Coop accomplish? If Laura never dies then all this means is that BOB will continue to terrorize twin peaks as Leland. Coop has to know this since he was there when BOB revealed himself.
Airola
Member
No, he already had said "where am I" when he first appeared. It was said the way the original Dougie spoke. It was not the way senile-Cooper talked. And "home" didn't actually sound like senile-Cooper talking either.
it's a wig, likely. Look at her apartment - she probably just happened to be wearing the blonde one when Gordon picked her up. Also if Diane was then sent to the purple lodge when he took her to the "gas station" afterwards, it would make sense she would have the red hair and same clothes the entire time in the lodge and then in the present.
Not directly but implied through Diane/Linda's note to Richard. He's Cooper (and still addresses himself as such) but inhabiting Richard. Or something. Call for help.
Charles Brandon
Member
OK but that doesn't explain why the people having sex have the same clothes and look exactly the same as the people in the car at mile 430, when they should look younger and surely wearing different clothes, at least in Diane's case anyway.
Edit: Your edit makes sense. That's a good point.
Mr. C aka "bad Coop" w/out BOB inside him is as much part of the real Coop as our hopeful agent Dale Cooper. They are two sides of the same coin and this becomes much more evident as agent Cooper crosses the barrier in episode 18. After the crossing, there seems to be not an ounce of the old hopeful agent cooper and Richard is a much colder, no-talk nonsense version of him. Richard acts almost exactly like Mr. C, down to the facial expression, hence the reaction from Diane during that very important sex scene. Watched 18 again last night and the little details and shift in personas is just masterfully done by Lynch, Kyle and crew.
Airola
Member
Yeah, I think that's correct.
Like, is it the physical self who dreams or is it the soul-self who dreams.
But I still think it could also be who or whatever Lynch and Frost thinks is the ultimate being, the god the creator of everything, is the dreamer.
And of course these could both be correct as they're not necessarily mutually exclusive things.
it's a new theory going around.
- You can't make the actors younger. It's a representation.
- Cooper was not acting like Bad Coop. He was acting determined. You saw him disarm Ike the Spike even as Dougie.
- He just looked at the Motel. Because he was taking it in since he knew Diane was gone and that it might be important - considering he woke up in it out of nowhere.
- "Her tulpa's memory got twisted and said that he raped her."
- Again, tulpa said that when repeating the false memories.
I mean, just because Laura finds peace in death doesn't mean she's better off being murdered! Leading her away to the White Lodge spares her from being murdered by her father and or trapped in the Black Lodge.
I think the interesting thing here is that in season 3, the past has been established as black & white. When Laura takes Cooper's hand and colour returns, does that mean she travels to the future? That it's not merely Coop travelling back in time, but also her connecting to the future. Is future or is it past? both
Fluffhead14
Member
Any idea what the girl crawling on the floor at the Road House was about?
This is what Cooper fails to understand. Laura's life was miserable and what happened to her was a tragedy, but that's just how it was going to be. Even if she had lived she would never have been able to erase the trauma. She would have ended up killing herself, OD'ing on drugs, or creating a dream for herself just as Audrey did (which is ultimately what she does, and what we see in Part 18.) Cooper just cannot understand that something so horrible can't be resolved. His boy scout positivity is his undoing in the end.
I think this was just a style choice to show the past as-is in FWWM vs. the past as it was being changed by Coop.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
Yeah but to what end? Preventing her death from happening in theory prevents all the events that lead to BOBs demise from happening wouldn't it? If Laura never dies, Coop never goes to twin peaks, hell maybe he'd end up wondering about in Deer Meadow for a while until realizing there were no leads.Obviously living is preferable but it's almost as if Coop thinks saving her is good enough to be a huge impact on the timeline, but I can't see how it's better.
Hell Carrie realizing she's Laura right at the end and screaming basically says to me that "to be Laura is to be forever be suffering"
MisterR
Member
I don't buy that at all, and I don't think that was bad coop, not sure it was good coop either
Reading back over some of the stuff that was in this season has made me think a lot of it was just pointless time filler. Maybe I'm just not sharp enough to interpret why they were there, but stuff like Ashley Judd's character, Audrey's dad, Shelly's daughter, a few others... what were any of these even about?
Just starting these plots up and then telling us after a certain point to "forget about all this now." kind of feels like a cop out.
Just starting these plots up and then telling us after a certain point to "forget about all this now." kind of feels like a cop out.
Don Draper's Hat
Member
Like most of this series; absolutely fucking nothing.
These plots exist to show us how classing TP characters are doing, and to enhance the themes of the show. Beverly & Ben's stories are intertwined, Beverly's showing us the impact that sickness can have on a marriage (sickness and aging being among the core themes of the season) and also showing how Ben has changed since the S2 finale, even though for once this is a situation where maybe both parties would be better off indulging in desire
The crawling girl at the Roadhouse is a brief vignette showing a person displaced by more powerful beings and breaking down at the unfairness of it all. Just like Laura and Cooper at the end.
Brian_FETO
Banned
Hell yeah dude finally some SENSE in this thread!!! Yeah!!!
I sort of see it as a companion scene to Audrey and Carrie awakening to a terrifying new reality.
Her scream is key. To me it indicated the realization of being awakened within a dream. But more like a nightmare since she's trapped in someone else's dream(Audrey possibly). Is exactly how I interpret anytime any character in Twin Peaks screams like that. The awakening to the nightmare scenario they are living in(?)
benicillin
Banned
Do we really know that saving Laura is like, Cooper's idea or end goal? Is it even about saving Laura, or is it about confronting Judy? Because it seems like he's just doing what Lodge residents are pointing him towards. Leland tells him twice (at the beginning and end of S3) to save Laura and the Fireman gives him a series of clues that lead him to Odessa.
I also still haven't quite figured out the significance of Laura screaming in the lodge at the beginning and end of S3 and getting sucked into the sky.
I also still haven't quite figured out the significance of Laura screaming in the lodge at the beginning and end of S3 and getting sucked into the sky.
JoJoShabadoo
Member
Anyone here familiar with Luis Buñuel's work? I've only seen Belle de Jour. Does any of his surrealist work compare to Lynch's sense of uneasiness and horror? (like, say, episode 18).
Maybe the road house in general is a place for ANYONE who is not awake, kind of a purgatory or limbo, and we're seeing people live out their youth or holding onto a past that does not exist anymore.
We caught glimpses of a few people 'waking up' (i.e. screaming) throughout the series.
Might also explain why the Road House was able to get such big headliners.. perhaps its a shared dreamstate, so the occupants of the road house get to see their favourite performers...
I wonder if we extend that thought back into previous seasons/FWWM if there are any weird things we may not have noticed without the context of Season 3.
We caught glimpses of a few people 'waking up' (i.e. screaming) throughout the series.
Might also explain why the Road House was able to get such big headliners.. perhaps its a shared dreamstate, so the occupants of the road house get to see their favourite performers...
I wonder if we extend that thought back into previous seasons/FWWM if there are any weird things we may not have noticed without the context of Season 3.
What show are you watching again ?
Plus if that is a problem, just don't make the scene, you know.
That doesn't match a single thing that was said about it, awesome.
So him being extremely cold and distant with Diane, speaking really slowly in the diner, even ignoring and not replying to Laura in a car for seemingly the whole trip, the mean demeanor when he asked if she recognized anything, to you, that's just being "determined". K. (it's not)
And the room he was in with Diane is magically the exact same he wakes up in ? What were the odds ?
Yeah he looked puzzled at the motel because he noticed things changed once he was outside.
And why and how would that happen ? This is based off literally nothing.
False memories ? It's one thing to come up with theories, it's another to make stuff up to then make theories about it.
I think it is the real Coop and Diane who crossed over the 430 limit, but like Coop said, when they did that something changed. Cooper is no longer the idealized hero of the dream but a flawed agent, sometimes aggressive, sometimes kind. He tells Diane what he wants but he doesn't actually do anything to harm her. His demeanor is offputting and reminds her of Mr. C which is why she covers his face. I think the tulpa she sees might just be symbolic to show that the situation is reminiscent of when she was raped.
What I want to know is why she referred to them specifically as Richard and Linda. Speaking of which, wasn't Linda the wife of one of the guys in the trailer park and she was in a wheelchair but we never saw her?
voodoopanda
Member
Of the one's I've seen, The Exterminating Angel is the closest. Differently a nightmare-like vibe. Essentially some unknown force causes a group of rich party goers to be unable to leave the party and things fall apart. It's one of my favorite movies.
Here's a trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stwZpwHyvuY
Fluffhead14
Member
the more i think about this show, the more i'm on board with you. the speculation in this thread seems kinda silly. i'm not convinced lynch thought about half this stuff as much as some of the people in here.
with that, i'll leave you guys to it, don't want to clutter the thread up.
snausagesUK
Member
I don't think there's any grand meaning to that scene. She just got stood up is all. Some of her friends were talking about her in an earlier episode I think.
Lynch follows his instinct in a lot of his films and 'finds' them later on I feel. But I feel with 18 hours the result was far too undisciplined and floaty to form into anything really impressive.
I do like the finale and it felt like the most confident installment in the series. But I think a lot of the rest was wishy washy and aggressively dull stuff
Camper Van Beethoven
Banned
Its safe to assume to roadhouse sequences were often if not always inside Audreys head. The idea of someone having an awakening inside a dream or reality seems pretty fitting with the show.
Regardless scenes can exist just to make you feel something. A scene doesnt need to have a point beyond creating an atmosphere.