My body is almost ready!
If we don't get anything else I'm still more than satisfied. Getting 18 hours of Twin Peaks and Lynch to digest is something I never thought would happen.
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Twin Peaks Season 3 |OT2| It's Just A Change, Not An End
- Thread starter Joqu
- Start date
My body is almost ready!
If we don't get anything else I'm still more than satisfied. Getting 18 hours of Twin Peaks and Lynch to digest is something I never thought would happen.
Pretty sure the UK set has the whole series + FWWM + Missing Pieces. That set is region free and it tends to be around $25-30 often enough. I know that's about what I paid for it.
uncle_koploski
Banned
When is the blu ray release, fam?
Also give me some bonus behind the scenes footage, fam.
Also give me some bonus behind the scenes footage, fam.
1) it's the exact point. The first half of part 17 was a cartoony dream sequence where all goes well and the hero triumphs, gets the girl and all. To which the giant Cooper head said "we live inside a dream".
2) the roadhouse stuff matters a lot thanks to Audrey. It proves the dream world isn't entirely made up and works like a mirror of reality. It never served another purpose, and it's not like we expected huge stuff for Billy and Tia.
I don't think there has been any word. Maybe next week during the Sabrina AMA we could get an idea.
Speaking of which, I bought TP on Blu in 2016, which was 2 years after it was first released, and interestingly enough, my set was called "Twin Peaks: The Original Series" instead of "Twin Peaks: The Entire Mystery" set that was released in 2014. The packaging and content is otherwise identical, except they removed The Missing Pieces from it for some reason. Season 1, 2, and FWWM are there, but no MP.
copy/pasting something I wrote on another site:
The Return is about aging. No matter how old we get, we can still make positive changes for ourselves and for others around us. Look at Ed and Norma, old as can be but happier than they've ever been. There's no reason your best years can't be ahead of you, so long as you act with kindness and decency to those around you. You can ignore your problems as Shelly did, and end up hurting the people you love. Or you can be like Coop.
Coop is too focused on changing the past to change the future. He says that the past dictates the future, and he's right. What you've been through will determine the way you see events later in life. Diane's trauma at the hands of Mr. C will never go away, and it tears her apart and makes her leave Cooper in the end. Laura's trauma will never go away, even in a dream she creates for herself long after her death. Cooper focuses on erasing trauma, but you can't. The best you can do is deal with it, and strive to be happy. Carl does a lot this season and matters very little, but he is the ultimate proof of this. He's been through wars, he's been through Lodge shenanigans, but at the end of his story, he shows kindness and helps a renter in need, and he enjoys the little things in his life for what they are.
I hope we can all be like Carl when we are old and grey. And I hope, like Ed and Norma, that our best days are ahead of us no matter how old we get.
The Return is about aging. No matter how old we get, we can still make positive changes for ourselves and for others around us. Look at Ed and Norma, old as can be but happier than they've ever been. There's no reason your best years can't be ahead of you, so long as you act with kindness and decency to those around you. You can ignore your problems as Shelly did, and end up hurting the people you love. Or you can be like Coop.
Coop is too focused on changing the past to change the future. He says that the past dictates the future, and he's right. What you've been through will determine the way you see events later in life. Diane's trauma at the hands of Mr. C will never go away, and it tears her apart and makes her leave Cooper in the end. Laura's trauma will never go away, even in a dream she creates for herself long after her death. Cooper focuses on erasing trauma, but you can't. The best you can do is deal with it, and strive to be happy. Carl does a lot this season and matters very little, but he is the ultimate proof of this. He's been through wars, he's been through Lodge shenanigans, but at the end of his story, he shows kindness and helps a renter in need, and he enjoys the little things in his life for what they are.
I hope we can all be like Carl when we are old and grey. And I hope, like Ed and Norma, that our best days are ahead of us no matter how old we get.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
I hate to do this but what if it was all a dream?
Like the bulk of series is just a dream, and the dreamer is obviously Laura. She dreamed of a world where she died and everything revolved around her death, to give her suffering some meaning.
Think about it, in fire walk with me we have the most down to earth acting of the whole series, because it's really happening. Everyone is acting like a real person in fire walk with me because they are real people, but throughout the series we have people who are acting very out of place almost like they're imagined people who don't really exist.
The exceptions might be everyone involved with the lodge and the blue rose agents. BOB tormenting her was obviously actually happening, and the blue rose agents were probably happening as well. But at some point during the events of fire walk with me Laura dreams the world of twin peaks, and Coop heading back at the end of it all is him trying to wake Laura from her dream, even if he doesn't know that's what he's doing.
The reason Laura shrieks at the end is because she hears her mother call out to her on the morning where they found her body. But since that never happened she's screaming in terror because she's still alive and the nightmare that is her life still continues.
This is probably completely off base / missing the point and there are probably tons of inconsistencies and issues with my little theory, but it was still fun thinking of it.
Like the bulk of series is just a dream, and the dreamer is obviously Laura. She dreamed of a world where she died and everything revolved around her death, to give her suffering some meaning.
Think about it, in fire walk with me we have the most down to earth acting of the whole series, because it's really happening. Everyone is acting like a real person in fire walk with me because they are real people, but throughout the series we have people who are acting very out of place almost like they're imagined people who don't really exist.
The exceptions might be everyone involved with the lodge and the blue rose agents. BOB tormenting her was obviously actually happening, and the blue rose agents were probably happening as well. But at some point during the events of fire walk with me Laura dreams the world of twin peaks, and Coop heading back at the end of it all is him trying to wake Laura from her dream, even if he doesn't know that's what he's doing.
The reason Laura shrieks at the end is because she hears her mother call out to her on the morning where they found her body. But since that never happened she's screaming in terror because she's still alive and the nightmare that is her life still continues.
This is probably completely off base / missing the point and there are probably tons of inconsistencies and issues with my little theory, but it was still fun thinking of it.
I like this, same with your summary of the finale. It resonates.
Camper Van Beethoven
Banned
I dont disagree, Im replying to the guy that suggested it as a possibility.
The Jackdog
Member
So Julee Cruise is pissed
I think you're wrong because FWWM has the "you're not a turkey" scene and if that really happened, then there's no reason everything else couldn't happen
thanks, kaako <3
my thoughts on the finale that kaako mentioned, if you missed it and want to read
Well said, it's a similar reason I have for being okay with all the Twin Peaks stories that don't seem to go anywhere. You can go back somewhere and no matter how hard you try, it will never be the same as you remember. After 25 years we are almost a stranger in Twin Peaks, and I think that's the point. We live in an age of nostalgia, but you can't ever go back.
On a related note, I think my favorite little story is with Norma. The idea of a money man telling her that if she rests her laurels on nostalgia whilst actually reducing the quality of her content (food) then she will make the most money is a very telling theme for the show's revival.
uncle_koploski
Banned
Eh, with the exception of maybe part 2, she basically got the best positioned slot in the series to perform. Though I could see she'd be annoyed that most of her time on screen was spent not actually singing.
Didn't even realize Chromatics were performing behind her
<3. I read your summary for my friend and cousin as well and it resonates with them too. Well put!
Another beautiful connection right here. Completely went over my head when I watched those scenes. Thanks for this.
Fixed.
To attack a director as "emperor" is a crazy ploy when the director is in fact in charge of the film/project. Its his vision, not hers or anyone else's. That's the point of being director. Secondly, she clearly doesn't understand the prestige of being the final musical act to appear in the show.
She really needs to reevaluate her importance to the show and the audience. Her appearance was (for me) purely nostalgia and didn't really care if she performed at all.
I thought it was absolutely lame that we only got to see/hear her perform maybe four lines of a 7-minute song. Like, what? And I was so looking forward to her showing up the entire damned series.
She, Lynch and Badalamenti were the musical force behind the original series. I associate a lot of the sound and the texture of Twin Peaks with Cruise's performances. I don't think it's too crazy to be miffed at receiving a truncated edit of what was very probably a stellar performance, especially when a majority of Lynch's acts at the Roadhouse performed songs in their entirety.
Airola
Member
This is where the problem lies.
I would be very much ok if the characters or the smaller mysteries would've been interesting to look to be solved, and then they never would be solved. At least it would've let me have lots of interesting questions going through my head.
The way it is now, most of the characters that were introduced and situations shown didn't manage to give even the slightest spark of interest that would make me now wonder why they were there.
When we never expect anything bigger to happen to something, it doesn't leave things to imagine when the show ends.
And certainly there were people who seemed to except a lot from Billy. Even in this forum there were people who were excited whenever Billy was mentioned and even tried to "shut down" people who were questioning its importance.
bishopcruz
Member
I was thinking about something which I don't think I've seen mentioned here.
The reason that Coop is acting so differently and so much like Mr. C is not because he transferred realities. Also, I think that the Mc. C that we've seen throughout the series is different from the Mr. C that we hear a lot of stories about. Whenever Mr C is mentioned in the far past, the stuff with Diane, the meeting with Briggs. You get the impression that at least at first, he seems like regular coop. Diane mentions his evil smile when she was raped. Have we ever seen Mr. C smile in the entire series?
Look at the only other time we have seen Mr. C, in the S2 finale. He's totally different, rather manic, and very much an embodiment of BOB and Coop. He's practically none of this in S3. He is someone single-mindedly moving towards a goal, not letting anything stop him, nothing makes him happy, or sad. The best we can get out of him is anger.
I think that Mr. C was a lot more like the manic BOB until he did something. He made a Tulpa, he created Dougie. Now Dougie was a piece of crap, with a lot of issues, but he did seem to have emotions, show real fear, he was freaked out when he vanished in the red room. He felt more like a real person than Mr. C did.
All Mr. C has in Season 3 is his goal. EVERYTHING he does is either to keep himself out of the Red Room, to find Judy or to remove any obstacles in his path to either of the previous goals. The only other thing he cares about are basic impulses like food and sex, and he doesn't seem to get any joy out of them.
The other Tulpa we see is Diane's Tulpa, who is also very emotional. Compare her to the Diane in 17 and 18, who is muted by comparison. We don't get much time with her, but most scenes with real Diane she seems nearly as gone as Mr. C, she has her goal, but it's not as strong an impulse for her, so she loses herself completely in the new world.
It looks like when you make a Tulpa of someone, that person loses a bit of their soul for lack of a better term. They are the same person, but less so. They are less emotional, they are more single minded. In many ways the Tulpa becomes more of a real person than the original upon its creation.
So Richard/Coop has been changed, but he did it to himself. In creating Dougie again, he lost a lot of the better parts of himself, his warmth, his empathy for others. All he is left with is his need to save Laura, his very base good personality, his desire for sex and that's about it. It's not that he ISN'T Coop, he's just a lot less Coop.
That does add a lot of new meaning to the Dougie reunion scene though, it's not just Coop leaving a replacement behind. It's Coop sacrificing a huge part of himself for the Jones family. It's poignant, and it may be the last really warm thing we will ever see Coop do.
The reason that Coop is acting so differently and so much like Mr. C is not because he transferred realities. Also, I think that the Mc. C that we've seen throughout the series is different from the Mr. C that we hear a lot of stories about. Whenever Mr C is mentioned in the far past, the stuff with Diane, the meeting with Briggs. You get the impression that at least at first, he seems like regular coop. Diane mentions his evil smile when she was raped. Have we ever seen Mr. C smile in the entire series?
Look at the only other time we have seen Mr. C, in the S2 finale. He's totally different, rather manic, and very much an embodiment of BOB and Coop. He's practically none of this in S3. He is someone single-mindedly moving towards a goal, not letting anything stop him, nothing makes him happy, or sad. The best we can get out of him is anger.
I think that Mr. C was a lot more like the manic BOB until he did something. He made a Tulpa, he created Dougie. Now Dougie was a piece of crap, with a lot of issues, but he did seem to have emotions, show real fear, he was freaked out when he vanished in the red room. He felt more like a real person than Mr. C did.
All Mr. C has in Season 3 is his goal. EVERYTHING he does is either to keep himself out of the Red Room, to find Judy or to remove any obstacles in his path to either of the previous goals. The only other thing he cares about are basic impulses like food and sex, and he doesn't seem to get any joy out of them.
The other Tulpa we see is Diane's Tulpa, who is also very emotional. Compare her to the Diane in 17 and 18, who is muted by comparison. We don't get much time with her, but most scenes with real Diane she seems nearly as gone as Mr. C, she has her goal, but it's not as strong an impulse for her, so she loses herself completely in the new world.
It looks like when you make a Tulpa of someone, that person loses a bit of their soul for lack of a better term. They are the same person, but less so. They are less emotional, they are more single minded. In many ways the Tulpa becomes more of a real person than the original upon its creation.
So Richard/Coop has been changed, but he did it to himself. In creating Dougie again, he lost a lot of the better parts of himself, his warmth, his empathy for others. All he is left with is his need to save Laura, his very base good personality, his desire for sex and that's about it. It's not that he ISN'T Coop, he's just a lot less Coop.
That does add a lot of new meaning to the Dougie reunion scene though, it's not just Coop leaving a replacement behind. It's Coop sacrificing a huge part of himself for the Jones family. It's poignant, and it may be the last really warm thing we will ever see Coop do.
Camper Van Beethoven
Banned
All the roadhouse rambling scenes totally work for me in the context its a world inside Audreys head. Thats more than enough payoff for me. Its not like they were that long. I dont have any issue with too much content. Its not like if those scenes didnt exist wed have had the show go further than the final episode did.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
I actually like this a lot and it makes a ton of sense, moments before coop creates the new dougie to send back to janey-e and sonny jim he's acting like his old self but the instant he makes him, coop becomes goal driven and relatively cold.
Master_Funk
Member
That does make alot of sense actually. Once MIKE made the dougie tulpa at the beginning of 18, cooper seemed very different.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Rewatching the last episode, and I noticed something that didn't originally stick with me. When Coop shows up at Carrie's house, she has zero reaction to him, the name Laura Palmer, and Leland, but she seems to get really shaken when he says Sarah.
I didn't pick it up the first time, but rewatching part 16 when Diane talks about it, it's possible that the smile she's talking about is Mr. C having another 'BOB smile' moment, which would definitely creep the fuck out of anyone!
Logically, I know you're right, but I'm really just having trouble reconciling the idea of such background mundanity in what season 3 TP had become compared to what it was prior to that.
I can deal with any amount of cutting away to feuds about who should run the local sawmill, or comedic interludes about a catatonic abusive husband being mocked by his wife and her lover when the main plot is about the investigation into a murder in a small town with slight fantastical elements gradually introduced as it goes... but watching multiple scenes of the local quack getting shitfaced and selling golden spades while ranting on the radio or a ten minute monologue by Scott Pilgrim that seems to serve no purpose(Seriously, of all the random stuff in there, this one just stood out as the most pointless scene of the whole season) as the background to reality warping extra-dimensional entities doing seriously weird shit in service of a goal we'll likely never find out about might be a tad more than I've been equipped to deal with I guess. This show has really done a number on me.
Is this what PTSD feels like?.
Yeah that jumped out at me as well on rewatch. Has anyone been able to determine that it was Sarah's voice specifically shouting Laura! at the end?
plagiarize
Banned
Yeah, I think that's quite valid.
The sex scene in Part 18 is interesting because it could plausibly be a number of things.
Diane can't look at Cooper when they are having sex, because Mr C raped her.
Or Diane recognizes that something is off about Cooper.
Or, Linda is trying to figure out why sex with Richard feels so wrong.
I took it the latter way. Diane was replaced with Linda while Cooper was in the motel office. This alternate reality caught up with her and she wasn't Diane anymore.
Oh that's interesting! So when Diane sees herself standing outside the motel, that's the Diane bit of her that's leaving, and the one that's left in the car -- and led into the motel room -- is Linda?
Yup, Carl is the wisest and noblest character in the Twin Peaks universe. I really got the sense that Lynch wanted to convey that in his scenes, and of course, pay tribute to Harry Dean Stanton.
I think this is a solid interpretation and why Lynch placed the Dougie creation scene where he did. When Coop came out of the curtain call to meet Diane, he seemed tired and already looked less like Coop. When Diane asks "Is it really you?", he answers it is, and it's true, but he was already a more diminished version of Coop.
The Elite
BOSS
Why hasn't Richard caught up with Cooper yet?
plagiarize
Banned
Presumably for similar unstated reasons as to why Gordon Cole will remember the 'unofficial' version of events. I guess some people can just remember. Perhaps if Diane (or Linda) hadn't left, Coop could have woken her up, or at least connected her to the other life she'd had.
I don't know that Laura wakes up at the end of Part 18, or if Carrie suddenly becomes aware of the life an alternate version of her lived... but maybe the longer you stay in that place, the more you lose of whatever reality you had been to before.
Perhaps some can resist that for longer. Perhaps because Cooper was part of diverging timelines he remembers. Perhaps he remembers because Judy wants him to.
If Judy is behind this new nightmare, snuffing out Coop's connection to the world he once knew, seems like the kind of move Judy might do.
Maybe he has? Coop still thinks of himself as Coop, and knows he's here to find Laura and bring her home, but maybe his lack of distinct Cooper-isms are a result of Richard catching up to him?
Wow @ the Julee Cruise stuff. If it's really just about her song getting cut short that's unbelievably unprofessional how she acted on FB (or wherever she posted). Sounds like we may not know all the details though (there's some mention of her trying to be unreachable... it's possibly Lynch pushed really hard to get her to do the song).
Either way, maybe we can get an extended cut of some scenes/musical acts on the Blu-Ray.
Either way, maybe we can get an extended cut of some scenes/musical acts on the Blu-Ray.
You got to accept that your work is subservient to the whole when getting involved in something like this. Sometimes you play a bit part, sometimes you're just a cameo, sometimes you're a super critical piece of the whole. I don't know what went on behind the scenes and it's definitely possible she was mislead or mistreated given that it sounds like she was trying to stay away from it, but if her argument rests on editing, well, that's just tough.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
I watched it with headphones, and it immediately sounded like Sarah to me. Additionally, Grace Zabriskie is credited for the episode despite never making a direct appearance.
First I thought it was Leland but on rewatch it's definitely Sarah and this is where it got interesting for me.
In both finale episodes 17 & 18, Sarah is the one making the last contact with Laura!
In episode 17, after Sarah who is being controlled by a different entity stabs the fuck out of Laura's picture and then they cut to the woods with Coop holding Laura's hand and suddenly you hear a faint clicking/insect noise which imo is the same creature we see in episode 8 being hatched/swallowed by the little girl. That's the entity that makes contact with Laura in 17 based on sound. Laura awakes/screams. Fin.
In episode 18, faint voice saying "Laura." That's Sarah who is also the last entity who makes contact with Laura in episode 18. Laura wakes up/screams. Fin.
Twin Peaks.
Not an insect sound most definitely. The sound is the same you hear coming from the victrola in the... first scene? of the show, the one with Coop and the Fireman in B&W, that I heard was later determined to be a heavily edited slot machine sound from the casino scene.
Food for thought. Have no idea if this is of any relevance, but the record on a victrola is round. And you could hear the sound consistently repeating itself over and over. Just to add to the whole infinity, cyclical, etc, discussion.
I don't think she's in a good space, judging from her Facebook posts. She seems to be living with a chronic illness, and that can mess anyone up.
I agree.
That's interesting. Gonna rewatch season 3 soon to see what other details you can catch after watching the finale.
DataStream
Member
Ok, so I guess i'm an asshole for arguing it was just Dale all along.
I'll go with the Tulpa requiring some part of his being and given the emotion he developed for Janey and desire to give that family the father they deserved it was part of his general warmth and love for humanity in addition to the memories of their time together.
Sheryl Lee was credited in EVERY episode despite only appearing in what....3 episodes? I think she was in 2, 17 and 18 with some archival footage in between.
bishopcruz
Member
I think it's likely more due to Coop being incredibly driven. He's acting like he is because of the creation of the new Dougie, which has left him rather a shell of his former self. I'm still trying to figure out the stuff with Diane though. Maybe the fucked up sex scene just broke her in a way, and Linda came flowing in. I'm not sure.
I get the feeling that Kyle doesn't know much more about the character than we do, him being told that 'Richard'(he actually identifies himself as Dale Cooper) is a different character doesn't mean he can't be the same Cooper that acts differently. Which is not necessarily what I think, but it's worth not ruling it out.
Edit:I think I misread a post, so this isn't really necessary to point out
Edit:I think I misread a post, so this isn't really necessary to point out
In another interview Kyle says that when they filmed the final scene at the Palmer house that he's not sure if Lynch/Frost had anything else even written/planned at that point. It's kind of crazy to think they were filming the last minute of the finale with (possibly) everything else yet to be created. I guess it tells you how important the last scene was to Lynch/Frost. It was that where everything else was built upon.
I know Lynch never really gets too deep into how/why things were written, but was Frost ever do interviews? I would love to hear either of their thoughts on Dougie.