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[horkrux]

You don't? Companies fuck with consumers in that regard all the time (cars are my favourite example of this, many cars are tuned by hacking the software nowadays). Everything has a source from him so I believe that both consoles are able to do this, but they just didn't unlock that in regards to the future (Sony = new players to sell, MS = new feature update? now new console)

You say 'in that regard', even though it is a completely different matter. If you want to believe that companies in general just want to fuck you over every chance they get, then I guess there's nothing more to discuss.
Problem is that his sources don't stand up to any sort of scrutiny, which means that you really shouldn't just believe him.

 

[Nictel]

If ever post needs a TLDR, it's this one. My head hurts.

TLDR: if you put a UHD blu-ray in your PS4 or XBox One it does not work.

 

[Gamezone]

Let's say this generation is able to run UHD with a firmware update. Would there be a point releasing it? Isn't UHD one of the future consoles big selling point?

 

[CosmicQueso]

Let's say this generation is able to run UHD with a firmware update. Would there be a point releasing it? Isn't UHD one of the future consoles big selling point?

Yep. So even were it possible, which is very doubtful, it wouldn't be probable.

 

[Coreda]

Adam had a compelling argument a page or two back about the fact that if UHD even were possible for the consoles it would be confusing to consumers as to which exact models had the support.

He also made that point that if it's such a hot new feature why they wouldn't have already introduced it.

Either way it hasn't been made available via a firmware update yet so we'll have to see if Rigby's October bet is correct. Until then onto another dozen pages!

 

[jeff_rigby]

You say 'in that regard', even though it is a completely different matter. If you want to believe that companies in general just want to fuck you over every chance they get, then I guess there's nothing more to discuss.
Problem is that his sources don't stand up to any sort of scrutiny, which means that you really shouldn't just believe him.

I think it would help if you go over the sources and what they mean and tick off the ones that are not in dispute.

YES or NO

1) UHD media requires HDCP 2.2 in the TEE not in the HDMI chip
2) UHD media uses HTML5 for the UI
3) UHD media uses the C-ENC format for the Media as does HTML5 <video> MSE EME
4) Vidipath uses HTML5 for the UI and HTML5 <video> MSE EME for the video with WMDRM and Playready for the DTCP-IP and OTT DRM. Additionally Playready ND is used for DTCP-IP for 1080P and 4K resolutions
5) AMD the XB1 and PS4 use Xtensa accelerators/DSPs for Audio and video Codecs
6) PS4 Southbridge contains the ARM trustzone TEE
7) HDCP 2.2 was developed in 2012 and used for Miracast and other WiFi streaming in ARM Phones. Will be used for Miracast and other WiFi and DTCP-IP streams in addition to Playready and HDMI 2.
8) HDCP 2.2 was mapped to the HDMI port and paper published Feb 2013. Since it's built on HDMI 1 pins, voltages and negotiation and HDMI 2 timings were known it was possible to produce a HDMI chip that supports HDMI 2 with pass through in time for launch
9) The 15 blocks in the XB1 are built using cadence IP (includes Xtensa accelerators.
10) Vidpath is DLNA CVP2 (commercial video profile 2)
11) All Vidipath TVs and STBs support Playready DRM
12) Cerney said the Southbridge chip contains a Trustzone processor
13) HEVC requires 1.5 times the processing power required for h.264
14) Exposed pins or traces are not allowed for unencrypted media that requires DRM.

There is more but lets start here..

 

[Gamezone]

I think it would help if you go over the sources and what they mean and tick off the ones that are not in dispute.

YES or NO

1) UHD media requires HDCP 2.2 in the TEE not in the HDMI chip
2) UHD media uses HTML5 for the UI
3) UHD media uses the C-ENC format for the Media as does HTML5 <video> MSE EME
4) Vidipath uses HTML5 for the UI and HTML5 <video> MSE EME for the video with WMDRM and Playready for the DTCP-IP and OTT DRM. Additionally Playready ND is used for DTCP-IP for 1080P and 4K resolutions
5) AMD the XB1 and PS4 use Xtensa accelerators/DSPs for Audio and video Codecs
6) PS4 Southbridge contains the ARM trustzone TEE
7) HDCP 2.2 was developed in 2012 and used for Miracast and other WiFi streaming in ARM Phones. Will be used for Miracast and other WiFi and DTCP-IP streams in addition to Playready and HDMI 2.
8) HDCP 2.2 was mapped to the HDMI port and paper published Feb 2013
9) The 15 blocks in the XB1 are built using cadence IP (includes Xtensa accelerators.
10) Vidpath is DLNA CVP2 (commercial video profile 2)
11) All Vidipath TVs and STBs support Playready DRM
12) Cerney said the Southbridge chip contains a Trustzone processor
13) HEVC requires 1.5 times the processing power required for h.264
14) Exposed pins or traces are not allowed for unencrypted media that requires DRM.

There is more but lets start here..

Man, I don't even understand half of that, but I hope everything turns out to be true.

 

[Gestault]

I see we're back to deflection via volume of tangential information.

 

[Gamezone]

Yep. So even were it possible, which is very doubtful, it wouldn't be probable.

Well,they have to do it soon. Does the slim support UHD? If people buy a new console because they want UHD support, I could imagine them being rather mad when they discover that their old Xbox could do it all along.

 

[Adam Tyner]

I believe you not understanding what UHD blu-ray requires of the hardware makes you feel it would be difficult to support.

Well, using your statements about the PS4 as an example:

1) Sony would need to do a firmware update to handle HDCP 2.2.

2) Sony would need to do a firmware update to bring the current HDMI implementation up to 2.0a to take advantage of all the bells and whistles.

3) In lieu of dedicated hardware, Sony would need to do another update to decode HEVC in software. It's unclear that, even if this were to happen, that it could do so on the levels that Ultra HD Blu-ray requires. Also, if Sony were to have a dedicated HEVC decoder in the Neo, that means they'd have to maintain two separate HEVC solutions.

4) Sony would need to do a firmware update to make the Blu-ray drive capable of reading Ultra HD Blu-ray discs. There have been a number of statements indicating that this is not possible.

That doesn't sound like a trivial lift to me. If I were Sony, I would just leave HD capability as it is and introduce UHD features in the Neo. The lack of UHD features is demonstrably not causing the current PS4 to suffer.

I do think it's strange that you're at least open to the possibility that the launch PS4 Blu-ray drive cannot be firmware-upgraded to play UHD BDs (hence that whole "2015 revision!" train of thought) but you don't believe the same is true for the Xbox One.

 

[jeff_rigby]

3) In lieu of dedicated hardware, Sony would need to do another update to decode HEVC in software. It's unclear that, even if this were to happen, that it could do so on the levels that Ultra HD Blu-ray requires. Also, if Sony were to have a dedicated HEVC decoder in the Neo, that means they'd have to maintain two separate HEVC solutions.

.
.

You still don't get it. There will be no such thing as a dedicated/hardware HEVC codec because.

1) The xtensa accelerator DPU/DSP blocks are used for multiple audio and video codecs not a fixed codec
2) it's also used for OpenVX,
3) Gesture recognition,
4) distorting the video for the VR goggles
5) Converting UHD to HD and the reverse for the digital bridge
6) Speech recognition and generation
7) Ultra low power key phrase voice recognition
8) Audio for the HD and UHD blu-ray
7)Game audio "True Audio"

The same hardware does all the above (Audio DSP and Video IVP) but both are Xtensa DSP blocks with the Video IVP more powerful than the Audio but both can process audio or Video. The audio processor can be used for ultra low power face recognition or Key phrase audio detection

The Xtensa controlled Video IVP is up to 32 of the blocks in green all able to move data between blocks via AXI bus or directly inside the IVP. It's similar to Cell and a GPU at the same time with dedicated blocks that perform specific functions that are common to codecs and vision processing. It's a stream processor and it's up to 100X more efficient than a CPU and 20X more than a GPU.

.

Statements about a hardware codec or dedicated hardware codec immediately raise a red flag. I don't think Ito mentioned a dedicated HEVC codec, just that there was no HEVC codec in the PS4. Since HEVC is a software routine running on the Xtensa accelerator, if the software is not in the PS4 OS a HEVC codec is not in the PS4. I went all over this two years ago.

 

[Adam Tyner]

You still don't get it. There will be no such thing as a dedicated HEVC codec because.

You should tell that to Masayasu Ito!

I don't think Ito mentioned a dedicated HEVC codec, just that there was no HEVC codec in the PS4. Since HEVC is a software routine running on the Xtensa accelerator, if the software is not in the PS4 OS a HEVC codec is not in the PS4.

You are wrong:

Ultra HD to Blu-ray playback of, because it is necessary to generation of new H.265 decoder than the H.264 decoder, which is mounted on the APU of the PS4. &#12288;However, this is likely to not be much of a problem. Because, manufacturing process technology of the APU for the PS4 is, in 2016 year, has become expected to migrate to 14nm or 16nm, it is likely to come to "normal" integrate the H.265 decoder in the timing body.

The Japanese->English translation is a mess, but there's no way to interpret this other than the presence of decoding in hardware.

Do you know who Stacey Spears is? He's one of the foremost experts on video compression the world over, he worked for Microsoft for years, he worked on the video/graphics pipeline for the Xbox One, and he worked on that HEVC software solution you keep going on about. This is what he has to say about the Xbox One S:

The Slim includes a HW HEVC decoder, HDMI 2.0a transmitter with HDCP 2.2 support and a new ROM drive that can read the new 33 GB per layer, and triple layer, UHD BD discs.

There was no HDMI 2.0a transmitter available when the console launched. While we were able to get SW UHD HEVC playback working, it used all of the CPUs on the box to make it happen. They were going to launch UHD Netflix last year with the software decoder, but that was cut due to limited resources after the layoff.

The new HDMI has everything the previous one did and more. The previous drive was a dual layer BD drive, which is what HD BD supports. The triple layer is new to UHD BD. The software HEVC used all of the CPUs and the GPU to function. Now it just uses a HW HEVC decoder, so no CPU or GPU is used. The software could only do Netflix 24p UHD at 15Mbps. It could not handle UHD BD bitrates or framerates at all.

That sure sounds definitive that the launch Xbox One will never be able to accommodate Ultra HD Blu-ray. We also now know why the Xbox One doesn't play Netflix in UHD.

You've characterized a bunch of other Microsoft and Sony employees as incompetent or liars. Are you going to add Stacey Spears to that list as well? Are you sure that I'm the one who doesn't get it?

 

[c0de]

You should tell that to Masayasu Ito!

You are wrong:



The Japanese->English translation is a mess, but there's no way to interpret this other than the presence of decoding in hardware.

Do you know who Stacey Spears is? He's one of the foremost experts on video compression the world over, he worked for Microsoft for years, and he worked on the video/graphics pipeline for the Xbox One. This is what he has to say about the Xbox One S:



That sure sounds definitive that the launch Xbox One will never be able to accommodate Ultra HD Blu-ray.

You've characterized a bunch of other Microsoft and Sony employees as incompetent or liars. Are you going to add Stacey Spears to that list as well? Are you sure that I'm the one who doesn't get it?

Oh I have to dig up that one thread where I was saying that most probably they will use a dedicated chip for decoding as the bluray decoding will be done on the app os and not the game os.

 

[SmartWaffles]

Yes. XB1 "S" launching August is unusual. Baring any other reason did they target the 8th month for China?

XBOS isn't coming to China till the end of the year.

 

[jeff_rigby]

You should tell that to Masayasu Ito!

You are wrong:



The Japanese->English translation is a mess, but there's no way to interpret this other than the presence of decoding in hardware.

Do you know who Stacey Spears is? He's one of the foremost experts on video compression the world over, he worked for Microsoft for years, he worked on the video/graphics pipeline for the Xbox One, and he worked on that HEVC software solution you keep going on about. This is what he has to say about the Xbox One S:





That sure sounds definitive that the launch Xbox One will never be able to accommodate Ultra HD Blu-ray. We also now know why the Xbox One doesn't play Netflix in UHD.

You've characterized a bunch of other Microsoft and Sony employees as incompetent or liars. Are you going to add Stacey Spears to that list as well? Are you sure that I'm the one who doesn't get it?

Yes.... there is something seriously wrong here and it's not with me.

The launch XB1 got a HEVC profile 10 firmware update June 2015 which Spears says used all the CPU and GPU resources.

While we were able to get SW UHD HEVC playback working, it used all of the CPUs on the box to make it happen. They were going to launch UHD Netflix last year with the software decoder, but that was cut due to limited resources after the layoff. The software HEVC used all of the CPUs and the GPU to function. Now it just uses a HW HEVC decoder,

AMD said the Launch XB1 uses the same hardware Carrizo uses for HEVC support which is UVD 6 and uses Xtensa processors not the CPU or GPU.

Note: The HEVC codec has to run on the AXI bus to be ARM trustzone TEE protected so they would never run HEVC on the Jaguar CPUs or GCN GPU. Second, they would never use the GPU for power reasons which is why Kaveri with UVD 4 and Carrizo with UVD 6 don't do so.

Multiple HEVC streams can be supported by the PS3 Cell. It only takes the equivalent of 4 ARM CPUs for HEVC and a tiny fraction of the PS4 GPU to do the same. "Used all the XB1 CPU and GPU" is only possible if the HEVC software codec had not been optimized for the platform. This was the state of the public domain HEVC codec in 2012 running on a PC. This is where the impression that HEVC decode was very processor intensive came from,

Your Ito cite went on to mention Carrizo with a HEVC codec.

Is the APU of the developer for the PS4 AMD is already "Carrizo" (Karizo) the generation of H.265 decoder in advance on the PC for APU called pre-integrated ( related article ).
&#12288;Since H.265 logic design of the decoder will be or was kind of expansion evolution version of the H.264 decoder, for mounting Sylhet during the APU of shrink for the PS4 is not difficult. Installation of H.265 decoder even smart phones and tablet for SoC (System-on-a- Chip) has been advancing, because it is expected to come to shift codecs to the H.265 video streaming service, rather H.264 decoder installed or even no reason to stay in.

UVD version 4 is in Kaveri and does h.264 without using the GPU, UVD in Carrizo is UVD 6 and does HEVC without using the GPU. ALL UVD are Xtensa accelerated Software codecs.

Xtensa processors are configurable before tapeout to perform any function or set of functions needed in a modern platform. The difference between the Xtensa accelerated hardware from 2011 in the 2013 platform to do HEVC and Carrizo in 2016 is the power efficiency.


How to explain the ignorance in the Spears statements? Is it really Spears or someone impersonating him with some outdated knowledge.

 

[Adam Tyner]

How to explain the ignorance in the Spears statements? Is it really Spears or someone impersonating him with some outdated knowledge.

It's him. He's been a member there for the better part of a decade, there's no shortage of photographic evidence if you poke around, etc. You're delusional.

There is no conceivable reason for this thread to remain open. We have three people from Microsoft saying that the launch Xbox One will never be capable of UHD BD playback (and Spears' credentials are bulletproof!), and the friggin' leader of the PlayStation hardware team says it's not possible on the launch PS4 either. It doesn't matter how many schematics you post or how desperately you try to hide your poorly founded misinterpretations behind walls of text; you are wrong.

 

[androvsky]

Is the APU of the developer for the PS4 AMD is already "Carrizo" (Karizo) the generation of H.265 decoder in advance on the PC for APU called pre-integrated ( related article ).
&#12288;Since H.265 logic design of the decoder will be or was kind of expansion evolution version of the H.264 decoder, for mounting Sylhet during the APU of shrink for the PS4 is not difficult. Installation of H.265 decoder even smart phones and tablet for SoC (System-on-a- Chip) has been advancing, because it is expected to come to shift codecs to the H.265 video streaming service, rather H.264 decoder installed or even no reason to stay in.

It's a machine translation, but I could read this as him saying it'd be easy to add H.265 to the APU during a slim redesign of the PS4.

 

[Adam Tyner]

It's a machine translation, but I could read this as him saying it'd be easy to add H.265 to the APU during a slim redesign of the PS4.

That is how I interpret it as well.

 

[jeff_rigby]

It's a machine translation, but I could read this as him saying it'd be easy to add H.265 to the APU during a slim redesign of the PS4.

That's how I read it also and it's not from Ito. The Point was not that it would be easy to update but that the consoles are using Xtensa processors not CPU or GPU.

Spears saying the Launch XB1 uses CPU or GPU for HEVC is so wrong on many levels.

HEVC encode is extremely processor intensive to the point that realtime encryption was not thought possible till hardware codecs.

HDMI 2 can output two separate HD video and audio streams. While HDMI 1.4 can do 3D frame packed and display two screens, HDMI2 makes provisions for the two audio streams as well.

 

[Adam Tyner]

That's how I read it also and it's not from Ito.

The quote I provided earlier is.

"Ito said" means that Ito said it.

Spears saying the Launch XB1 uses CPU or GPU for HEVC is so wrong on many levels.

He is extremely easy to reach out to. Send him a message through any of the many, many message boards he's active on (doom9 is another, and he's even on blu-ray.com) or through social media. I'm not going to harass the guy about this point -- again, his credentials are bulletproof, I've known about and respected him for ages being a bit of a videophile and all, and his comments leave zero room for misinterpretation -- but you're the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist, so have at it.

 

[herod]

I love that when you google this it's just jeff_rigby citing himself on neogaf and everyone else pointing out that HDMI 2.0a, hardware h.265 and triple layer firmware updates are required. Even if he latter were possible, the only word on the former two is jeff citing his own conclusions over and over as fact. A textbook charlatan.

 

[Jebusman]

Jeff, please, I'm begging you buddy. Just stop. Admit you're wrong, take the L and we can look forward to the next crazy conspiracy you come up with (probably how VR is a scam because "we've been in it this whole time" or something on that level)

I just don't see how you can get off trying to factually state that industry veterans are apparently liars. It's not a good look. Hell I'd be skeptical of just about any claim you make about anything at this point after seeing how deeply you'll dig your own grave.

It hurts to watch man. Just let it go.

 

[mitchman]

Can you, as a web designer, come up with a better reason for: "The PS4 web browser at least at one time required being signed into PSN."

I'm not a web designer, I make web browsers. And no, I have no explanation for that. This doesn't mean I jump to any conclusions and somehow make a jump to them tracking pages AND using that for ad purposes.

 

[jeff_rigby]

UPCOMING AMD APUS FEATURE BUILT-IN GESTURE CONTROL POWERED BY EYESIGHT Jan 2013 The UVD in AMD APUs uses Xtensa DSP which can also do vision processing. AMD stated that they use the same as the XB1 for HEVC = Xtensa processor

AMD's TrueAudio and Unified Video Decoder are ASICs based on Cadence Tensilica Xtensa/DSP configurable processors.

Cadence Tensilica Vision DSPs for Imaging and Computer Vision

Built for Next-Generation Imaging/Vision Requirements IP for next generation image/video processing Today&#8217;s applications processors are not equipped to handle the complex vision/imaging digital signal processing (DSP) functions in mobile handsets, tablets, DTVs, drone and automotive, video game, and high-end wearables. The Cadence® Tensilica® Vision DSP family offers a much-needed breakthrough in terms of energy efficiency and performance that enables applications never before possible in a programmable device.

The Tensilica Vision DSP family was designed for the complex algorithms in imaging and computer vision, including innovative multi-frame noise reduction, video stabilization, high dynamic range (HDR) processing, object and face recognition and tracking, low-light image enhancement, digital zoom, gesture recognition, plus many more.

High Dynamic Range processing does not take place in the HDMI chip . It's done in the TEE using Xtensa processors.

XB1 10-bit HD High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC) platform support added June 2015

http://www.moorinsightsstrategy.com...es-it-was-all-about-carrizo-at-computex-2015/

AMD also touts the fact that the Xbox One can and will stream content over HEVC to the Carrizo APU and should work best on AMD. [Carrizo uses 1.9 watts in the UVD while the older generation Kaveri used 4.8 watts]

June 2015 With these conditions met, gamers will have a hard time discerning the difference between playing on their Xbox One directly or streaming their games to another device around the house. This is Microsoft&#8217;s goal with Xbox One streaming on Windows 10, and AMD designed the 6th Generation processor to meet this goal. (h.264 and h.265)

h.265 encode is MUCH more processor intensive than decode yet both AMD and Microsoft are touting the XB1 doing flawless HEVC encode for game streaming which has latency concerns they must have also solved.

Spears stated HEVC decode used most of the XB1 CPU and GPU while June 2015 Microsoft and AMD are talking HEVC encode for game streaming which is always more processor intensive than decode. Game streaming CAN NOT USE THE GPU OR CPU as the game is using the CPU and GPU, Game streaming requires dedicated VCE in AMD GPUs for h.264 and somehow Microsoft has a encoder that does HEVC encode at low latency. That is absolutely an amazing job of engineering and we are to assume that Microsoft didn't do the same with the easier decode using Xtensa configurable processors. DRM requires the codec protected in the TEE so the AMD GPU and CPU can not be used for Netflix as Spears tried to allude. Besides which the GCN GPU uses too much power and optimally the GPU will be off for full screen video.

How can this be? The letters I cite and the statements in 2013 all have the XB1 and PS4 Launch consoles as UHD capable. We have to assume they were talking about consoles from 2016 including HEVC encode and decode support June 2015 not for the Launch consoles but for the 2016 consoles. The April 2015 letters I quote state the PS4 and XB1 are UHD Capable and we must assume they are talking about the 2016 and 2017 consoles. To me that is too much of a stretch besides which the first letter has UHD Console power use from 2013.

You guys are gullible and my TIN hat protects me from those cosmic rays that are interfering with your reasoning.

 

[Adam Tyner]

How can this be?

Why don't you ask him? Rather than leap to wild assumptions and pass your shaky speculation off as fact, why don't you try talking to people in a position to know and asking the right questions?

The topic at hand has to do with the launch consoles being able to support UHD BD. You said they undoubtedly, undeniably would, and that anyone who disagreed is clueless and ignorant. You didn't pose this as a question, but it's been definitively answered just the same.

You're wrong. Deal with it and move on with your life. ...and enough with those stupid EU letters. They obviously signify nothing of consequence.

You guys are gullible and my TIN hat protects me from those cosmic rays that are interfering with your reasoning.

So there's a vast, industry-wide conspiracy to protect the secrecy of this firmware update that's dropping in a couple of months? That is pathological.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Why don't you ask him? Rather than leap to wild assumptions and pass your shaky speculation off as fact, why don't you try talking to people in a position to know and asking the right questions?

The topic at hand has to do with the launch consoles being able to support UHD BD. You said they undoubtedly, undeniably would, and that anyone who disagreed is clueless and ignorant. You didn't pose this as a question, but it's been definitively answered just the same.

You're wrong. Deal with it and move on with your life. ...and enough with those stupid EU letters. They obviously signify nothing of consequence.

So there's a vast, industry-wide conspiracy to protect the secrecy of this firmware update that's dropping in a couple of months? That is pathological.

AMD did not announce in advance that Carrizo would support HEVC, they announced and released drivers for their dGPUs (already on the market) and APU about to be released that support HEVC at about the same time. Microsoft announced HEVC support in the XB1 at the release of a software update not before except for the MS VP 2013 Launch statement but not since. The Microsoft XB1 update occurred within weeks of the AMD announcement and AMD touted XB1 streaming to Carrizo and that they use the same hardware that the XB1 uses for HEVC. That sure appears to be a NDA agreement.

If you understand the technology you can determine who is bullshitting you. You apparently want to believe the bullshit and deny EU letters because they obviously support a position you disagree with. We have the pot calling the kettle black and no way to overcome this unless you bring yourself up to speed on the technology being used in AMD APUs, the XB1 and PS4. So I suggest we wait for October and table the discussion.

I did try to contact Spears on REDHAT, the forum you cite but new users are not allowed to post in that area and not allowed to contact users directly. How about you forwarding this block:

Spears stated HEVC decode used most of the XB1 CPU and GPU while June 2015 Microsoft and AMD are talking HEVC encode for game streaming which is always more processor intensive than decode. Game streaming CAN NOT USE THE GPU OR CPU as the game is using the CPU and GPU, Game streaming requires dedicated VCE in AMD GPUs for h.264 and somehow Microsoft has a encoder that does HEVC encode at low latency in the Launch XB1. That is absolutely an amazing job of engineering and we are to assume that Microsoft didn't do the same with the easier decode using Xtensa configurable processors. DRM requires the codec protected in the TEE so the AMD GPU and CPU can not be used for Netflix as Spears tried to allude. Besides which the GCN GPU uses too much power and optimally the GPU will be off for full screen video.

 

[SwordStruck]

Is the argument to prove that the consoles are capable of playing them, or that Sony/MS will even let it happen? Until there is significant evidence that either company will update their 3 year old hardware to do something that will be a big selling point of any new hardware they put out, isn't it kind of pointless to try to prove the former?

 

[Chû Totoro]

Is the argument to prove that the consoles are capable of playing them, or that Sony/MS will even let it happen? Until there is significant evidence that either company will update their 3 year old hardware to do something that will be a big selling point of any new hardware they put out, isn't it kind of pointless to try to prove the former?

It changes accordingly to jeff's willingness.

Jeff is the spin master. Right now I'm just convinced he's copy / pasting things he understands but not that much relevant to the real claim that he was making here at first "The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray"

PS4 may be 4K compatible for media streaming but that's about it (and it's for specific models shipped in 2013 and after..)

 

[Adam Tyner]

If you understand the technology you can determine who is bullshitting you. You apparently want to believe the bullshit and deny EU letters because they obviously support a position you disagree with.

Let's see!

Do I believe:

* Phil Spencer, who heads up the Xbox group
* Stacey Spears, a video industry legend who worked on the Xbox One's video/graphics pipeline and knows HEVC inside and out
* Frank O'Connor, a home theater gearhead who works at Microsoft
* Masayasu Ito, who leads the PlayStation hardware team

...every last one of whom speaks about why, specifically, the launch consoles cannot support Ultra HD Blu-ray, or jeff_rigby, who sees two words -- "UHD Capable" -- in EU power consumption documents and weaves a grand, elaborate story around them?

The evidence is overwhelmingly against you. There's not even any consequential evidence supporting your claim. You have quotes from 2013 and some vague EU letters where UHD capability isn't even the central focus, and UHD BD is never mentioned at all. Remember, we're not even talking about technical capability in theory; you're insisting that this capability will be in place in October! I genuinely cannot fathom how you can still be grandstanding around these completely outlandish claims.

I did try to contact Spears on REDHAT, the forum you cite but new users are not allowed to post in that area and not allowed to contact users directly. How about you forwarding this block:

1) Uh, it's not a Red Hat forum. Read more closely next time.
2) I listed other forums he's a member of, including blu-ray.com, where you have an account
3) There's this fancy new thing called "Google" where you can type in someone's name and find alternate methods of contact

 

[c0de]

It changes accordingly to jeff's willingness.

Jeff is the spin master. Right now I'm just convinced he's copy / pasting things he understands but not that much relevant to the real claim that he was making here at first "The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray"

PS4 may be 4K compatible for media streaming but that's about it (and it's for specific models shipped in 2013 and after..)

They all should switch to bink video!

And even cooler, Bink 2 can be much faster than Bink 1, due to its multi-core scaling and SIMD design (up to 70% of the instructions executed on a frame are SIMD). It is really fast - it can play 4K video frames (3840x2160) in 4 ms PCs and 11 ms PS4/Xbox One using the CPU only (or 1.4 ms PC and 2.3 ms PS4/Xbox using GPU acceleration)!

http://www.radgametools.com/bnkmain.htm

 

[jeff_rigby]

Is the argument to prove that the consoles are capable of playing them, or that Sony/MS will even let it happen? Until there is significant evidence that either company will update their 3 year old hardware to do something that will be a big selling point of any new hardware they put out, isn't it kind of pointless to try to prove the former?

A couple of points.

1) Playready embedded and WMDRM are in the PS4 intellectual notice
2) Playready embedded has not been used yet for Netflix and WMDRM has not been used yet for DTCP-IP streaming DLNA DRM as the Media Player DLNA has no DRM.
3) Vidipath is DLNA and Playready, uses the HTML5 UI and APIs from HTML5 <video> MSE EME. There are mandates for features coming with Vidipath and Sony has plans to support Vidipath on the PS3 and PS4.

An update is coming for most of the CE industry to support RUI/Vidipath which was mandated by the FCC for June 2015 which is exactly the same month that Microsoft has their HEVC firmware update to the XB1 and AMD announced HEVC support and provided drivers for their dGPUs and APU that supported HEVC. Gee, June 2015 sounds like a NDA date.

The CE industry has their first Vidpath client as the Samsung 2016 UHD Smart TV three days ago. A firmware update is coming for the game consoles to support Vidipath and with it comes many other features that were supported by the 2013 hardware. This will be in the August 2016 XB1 "S" but will need a firmware update for the older consoles.

Regardless of UHD support in the firmware update many features are coming with that update that will occur after the XB1 "S" launch and before the PS4 VR launch as the same Xtensa processors that handle h.264 and I believe HEVC can also do OpenVX which VR needs.

 

[jeff_rigby]

They all should switch to bink video!

And even cooler, Bink 2 can be much faster than Bink 1, due to its multi-core scaling and SIMD design (up to 70% of the instructions executed on a frame are SIMD). It is really fast - it can play 4K video frames (3840x2160) in 4 ms PCs and 11 ms PS4/Xbox One using the CPU only (or 1.4 ms PC and 2.3 ms PS4/Xbox using GPU acceleration)!

http://www.radgametools.com/bnkmain.htm

Which makes Spears statement that the XB1 CPU and GPU were nearly maxed out doing HEVC bullshit which I pointed out.

Bink is in game video streaming middle ware for games and does not use the Trustzone TEE codec that is used for DRM Media.

Thanks c0de for posting that cite.

Adam, how much more do you need to confirm at least Spears is talking out of his hat.

* Stacey Spears, a video industry legend who worked on the Xbox One's video/graphics pipeline and knows HEVC inside and out

While we were able to get SW UHD HEVC playback working, it used all of the CPUs on the box to make it happen. They were going to launch UHD Netflix last year with the software decoder, but that was cut due to limited resources after the layoff. The software HEVC used all of the CPUs and the GPU to function. Now it just uses a HW HEVC decoder,

compared with Bink 2's middleware 11 ms PS4/Xbox One using the CPU only (or 1.4 ms PC and 2.3 ms PS4/Xbox using GPU acceleration)!

You didn't catch that yet you accuse me of being; "Wrong get over it" when I did and posted that HEVC would take a tiny fraction of the PS4 GPU.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Adam, how much more do you need to confirm at least Spears is talking out of his hat.

Someone of equal or greater status in a position to know saying as much. That hasn't happened. Doubtful it will or even can.

Regardless, there's also the issue of the drive itself, which all four of these people from MS/Sony unanimously say requires new hardware. There's also the issue that if Microsoft doesn't believe a firmware update is possible or worth the effort, that prevents Ultra HD Blu-ray from ever being incorporated into the launch consoles as much as it not being technically possible at all. In practice, the difference between "won't happen" or "can't happen" is academic; they both result in "doesn't happen" at the end of the day.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Someone of equal or greater status in a position to know saying as much. That hasn't happened. Doubtful it will or even can.

You just had c0de's cite do so...is this denial of facts that are obvious? What's going on here?

Oh, you think the Bink HEVC codec middle ware is false advertising while Spears is accurate. c0de, what do you think? Did you post false advertising? Is Spears talking out of his hat trying to impress by claiming special knowledge?

Regardless, there's also the issue of the drive itself. There's also the issue that if Microsoft doesn't believe a firmware update is possible or worth the effort, that prevents Ultra HD Blu-ray from ever being incorporated into the launch consoles as much as it not being technically possible at all. In practice, the difference between "won't happen" or "can't happen" is academic; they both result in "doesn't happen" at the end of the day.

And we are back to part of my argument is speculation and you could be correct....but I doubt it <grin>.

 

[c0de]

Which makes Spears statement that the XB1 CPU and GPU were nearly maxed out doing HEVC bullshit which I pointed out.

Bink is in game video streaming middle ware for games and does not use the Trustzone TEE codec that is used for DRM Media.

Well, yes, but Bink is especially made for fast decode because it is especially made and hand-crafted and mouth-blown to fit gaming needs.
HEVC is a whole different beast when it comes to computing needs.

 

[Adam Tyner]

You just had c0de's cite do so...is this denial of facts that are obvious?

Not all 4K video is created equal. Spears says as much (bitrate, frame rate, etc.). We're also talking about a completely different codec here.

 

[SmartWaffles]

I'm wondering what will happen comes October when nothing will happen.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Oh, you think the Bink HEVC codec middle ware is false advertising while Spears is accurate. c0de, what do you think? Did you post false advertising? Is Spears talking out of his hat trying to impress by claiming special knowledge.

Bink is proprietary and been around for 15 years or more. There are DS games that use it...

 

[gatti-man]

Man, I don't even understand half of that, but I hope everything turns out to be true.

It's not and won't be. I would like it to be but it won't.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Still with this thread huh. It should be pretty clear now with the Xbox one s and confirmation of neo that neither the original xbox one or ps4 are going to support uhd bluray.

 

[Jebusman]

the Bink HEVC codec middle ware

Are you misunderstanding what Bink is?

Do you think that Bink (Rad Game Tools) just developed software to decode a HEVC stream?

Bink itself is an entirely different codec, meant to achieve the lowest possible data rate with the fastest decoding possible, while suffering a minimal amount of quality loss, in order to accommodate consoles. It is in no way directly compatible with HEVC or even relatable outside of the fact that both of them support a video stream with a resolution of 4K. Quality, compression ratios and decoding times are wildly, WILDLY different.

I have absolutely zero doubt in my mind it takes a magnitude more power to decode a HEVC stream than it would either Bink 1 or 2.

You seem to be confusing the very concept of the RESOLUTION of 4K with HEVC.

 

[mitchman]

Oh, you think the Bink HEVC codec middle ware is false advertising while Spears is accurate. c0de, what do you think? Did you post false advertising? Is Spears talking out of his hat trying to impress by claiming special knowledge?

http://www.radgametools.com/bnkmain.htm does not mention HEVC with a single word.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Are you misunderstanding what Bink is?

Do you think that Bink (Rad Game Tools) just developed software to decode a HEVC stream?

Bink itself is an entirely different codec, meant to achieve the lowest possible data rate with the fastest decoding possible, while suffering a minimal amount of quality loss, in order to accommodate consoles. It is in no way directly compatible with HEVC or even relatable outside of the fact that both of them support a video stream with a resolution of 4K. Quality, compression ratios and decoding times are wildly, WILDLY different.

I have absolutely zero doubt in my mind it takes a magnitude more power to decode a HEVC stream than it would either Bink 1 or 2.

You seem to be confusing the very concept of the RESOLUTION of 4K with HEVC.

You seem to think that Jeff actually understands and knows what he's talking about. He doesn't he has these rudimentary understandings and posts huge walls of text to make everyone think he understands this shit. In reality he's completely clueless. Which is why we get shit like this thread.

 

[wesleyshark]

 

[CosmicQueso]

I'm wondering what will happen comes October when nothing will happen.

In order to not impact sales of the new consoles, patches won't be pushed until January, or March, or June, but they're certainly coming because 4+4=8.

 

[Jebusman]

You seem to think that Jeff actually understands and knows what he's talking about. He doesn't he has these rudimentary understandings and posts huge walls of text to make everyone think he understands this shit. In reality he's completely clueless. Which is why we get shit like this thread.

Oh I know. I've already sent in a request to the mods before to have one of this threads renamed (the PS4 WILL support 4K discs or whatever it was) asking to have it renamed to "could", and even now I'd say that's not accurate either.

But either they missed it, ignored it, or have some sort of faith in Jeff that no one else seems to have anymore.

Like I know people want to be skeptical of statements from company execs about what their consoles can and cannot do, but this entire thread is taking it one step too far.

It's approaching chemtrails levels of conspiracy.

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

Petition to junior jeff_rigby.

 

[Gamezone]

We could argue all we want. Maybe Microsoft and Sony could release a firmware update for our current consoles to activate UHD, but they won't. Microsoft and Sony is advertising every upcoming console with an UHD Blu-ray driver. The Xbox One S is just around the corner, and Microsoft expect many of us to upgrade our consoles because of the UHD feature. Many have already pre-ordered it. It would be suicide for them to activate their old consoles at some later point.

 

[foolishoptimist]

We could argue all we want. Maybe Microsoft and Sony could release a firmware update for our current consoles to activate UHD, but they won't. Microsoft and Sony is advertising every upcoming console with an UHD Blu-ray driver. The Xbox One S is just around the corner, and Microsoft expect many of us to upgrade our consoles because of the UHD feature. Many have already pre-ordered it. It would be suicide for them to activate their old consoles at some later point.

Where are Sony advertising specs for their upcoming console?

The strange Spears statement could be an attempt to blame the launch XB1 hardware for the lack of any 4k support, instead of admitting it's a business decision...

 

[Adam Tyner]

The strange Spears statement could be an attempt to blame the launch XB1 hardware for the lack of any 4k support, instead of admitting it's a business decision...

Why do you think it's a strange statement? He's a technical guy and doesn't exclusively work for Microsoft, so I don't know what motivation he'd have to lie/mislead about the hardware.

He's been pretty blunt about things in the past that don't paint the hardware in the best of lights. Take this one from 2014, for instance:

On the Xbox One, 8-bit RGB is delivered to the HDMI transmitter. If you are outputting 36-bit, it is padded with zeros just before output. No actual processing is done at >8-bit. Xbox One's Blu-ray player is a matter of convenience only. A standalone Blu-ray player is better. I worked on the Xbox One, so I know the internals of the entire video pipeline.