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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding

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Pandy

Member
I'm not a fan of it but calling the proposals in the manifesto "the great firewall of Britain" is ludicrous.

The China comparisons are OTT, but I can see where they are coming from.

It's a classic double-edged sword. Of course the powers could be used properly to help protect vulnerable internet users, but once in place it wouldn't take much for a government with the will to do so to turn them against us.
 
Just going to cross post what I said in the Theresa May New Internet thread

Tory landslide, its still going to be a Tory landslide.

Fuck this this country, we deserve everything coming to us if we give these cunts a mandate to do what they want :(
 
The China comparisons are OTT, but I can see where they are coming from.

It's a classic double-edged sword. Of course the powers could be used properly to help protect vulnerable internet users, but once in place it wouldn't take much for a government with the will to do so to turn them against us.

They're not OTT. Cameron started it with the ISP level parental controls. Once the coalition was over, the Tories returned to the Snoopers Charter and the hoovering up of everyone's data, passed at the end of last year.

Oh, and the new Digital Economy Bill was rushed through before parliament was dissolved. Labour is always quite happy to wave this garbage through with minimal opposition.

Roll on just a couple of weeks after the DEB gets Royal Ascent and the Tory manifesto says they want to regulate what the people are allowed to publish and view on the internet.

I think the course that's been plotted here is a very obvious one.
 

Audioboxer

Member
The China comparisons are OTT, but I can see where they are coming from.

It's a classic double-edged sword. Of course the powers could be used properly to help protect vulnerable internet users, but once in place it wouldn't take much for a government with the will to do so to turn them against us.

All the ISP court enforced blocked websites and the recent bans on "Kodi" boxes, which are just android devices with Kodi put on them shows the power they can wield online.

Okay, some genuine tasks in trying to kerb piracy, but it's the double barreled shotgun approach of using the most authoritarian force possible to go after the end user. Straight to the courts and straight to banning/blocking.

The more powers/bills they get passed the more the above kind of approach spreads to anything the Conservative party do not like. Porn is obviously the next big one for them. As it tends to be for right-wing/conservatives or authoritarians. High disgust sensitivity. Even some on "the left" display this too the further left you go. It's the conundrum of letting men/women do what they want with their bodies, sexually, versus the fight against misogyny/think about the children/porn is for creeps.

Ultimately, I think the most balanced approach to porn is better education for younger minds (educational systems often fail us), and adult minds, but particularly younger, and of course regulated industries. ISP blocks to sign up/websites blocked and possibly even the Tories wanting to censor certain kinds of porn, nah. Some of those things suggested, sure, an argument can be made, but it's like Gramps coming in and not understanding consent/adult performers. Not to mention again another example of over-reaching authoritarian blocking/banning.

Then the irony is some of these people who display high disgust sensitivity in public and want to be moral busybodies is they're doing lines off prostitutes in private. All throughout history you can find these double-standards when some of the most outwardly authoritarian/police-state and power-tripping people have their private life uncovered. I will say often their private life is uncovered in foul ways, but as an observer, it's hard not to take notice when it does and some seriously kinky/think about the children stuff comes out. Sadly, sometimes it goes further than that and ends up seriously illegal (child molestation from priests anyone?). Not everyone with high disgust sensitivity/pure morals and authoritarian leanings, of course, just saying the hypocrisy is seriously high from some. When people get into positions of power, people abuse. History 101.
 

Ashes

Banned
The government in effect are already doing this to be honest. They already get internet overlords to block copyright infringement sites.

Who here is going to protest blocking porn? We're still all pretending in politics that porn isn't ubiquitous. That's the funny thing. I don't think this is to do with security. They just want to control porn - not for moral reasons but - for copyright issues. They're all just embarrassed to be upfront and own up to talking about porn.
 

Pandy

Member
They're not OTT. Cameron started it with the ISP level parental controls. Once the coalition was over, the Tories returned to the Snoopers Charter and the hoovering up of everyone's data, passed at the end of last year.

Oh, and the new Digital Economy Bill was rushed through before parliament was dissolved. Labour is always quite happy to wave this garbage through with minimal opposition.

Roll on just a couple of weeks after the DEB gets Royal Ascent and the Tory manifesto says they want to regulate what the people are allowed to publish and view on the internet.

I think the course that's been plotted here is a very obvious one.

To be clear, when I say OTT I mean that they won't be implemented to the extent that China does within the next 5 years. Not that they won't be at some point in the future, hence my double-edged sword comment. They are laying the ground work, starting us down the slippery slope, but I think they'll be relatively careful for the time being.

Hypothetical example: I wouldn't be surprised if it was used to flag a video as 'Inappropriate content for the UK' if it showed civilian casualties from UK military action, but I would be surprised if it was used to block websites that posted news articles on the same story.

We're disagreeing on the strength of the analogy, not the direction of travel.
 

Chinner

Banned
Tories want people to go back to traditional mainstream media outlets. Easier to control and build relations in. No doubt traditional media want less opposition from the Internet as they have been in a free fall for over 20 years now.
 

Audioboxer

Member
The government in effect are already doing this to be honest. They already get internet overlords to block copyright infringement sites.

Who here is going to protest blocking porn? We're still all pretending in politics that porn isn't ubiquitous. That's the funny thing. I don't think this is to do with security. They just want to control porn - not for moral reasons but - for copyright issues. They're all just embarrassed to be upfront and own up to talking about porn.

As I mentioned above looking into disgust sensitivity in the fields of psychology is interesting

People sensitive to disgust are more likely to hold right-wing views

Disgust Sensitivity Predicts Intuitive Disapproval of Gays (starting to consider sex/sexuality)

Some general foundations of disgust going back to Darwin

As with the second link, when you mix higher disgust sensitivity with things such as sexual acts, romance, love, and of course, homosexuality, you tend to get the authoritarian/moral busybodies who in public call everything "disgraceful acts of perversion" and constantly scream "think about the kids". Whilst ironically not thinking about the kids, as a serious lack of credible sex education is forcing many younger minds online without a good grounding for knowing what is "real life" and what is fantasy/role play/acting. Then as I said above, the reality is, as sexual species, in private lives, people are banging whoever they want and putting whatever they want in places of their bodies. The hypocrisy is dangerous though, it leads to poor education, discrimination, abuse and society being held back from social progress. You can bet a lot of those protesting against gay marriage may test highly with disgust sensitivity. Not to mention will be religiously motivated, but many religious people will also test highly to disgust and are often fundamentally viciously authoritarian.
 

Ashes

Banned
Interesting research. But I doubt you can distil human beings down to specific emotions and link that meaningfully to left leaning or right leaning parties.

People vote differently when it's just based on manifesto pledges not parties for example..
 

Audioboxer

Member
Interesting research. But I doubt you can distil human beings down to specific emotions and link that meaningfully to left leaning or right leaning parties.

People vote differently when it's just based on manifesto pledges not parties for example..

A lot of psychology around emotions/thinking is about indicators and likelihoods. It's not to say if you find x, y will always be the outcome. More-so, if you find x, the chances of y being an outcome may be affected in a positive or negative way.

With humans, there are always outliers and those who do not conform to research. With the way May and her party act, however, many of the dominoes are falling down the paths you'd expect.

If we're talking how people vote rather than the party, a lot of the same findings still come into play. Take America for a striking example, just guess what you think the findings are for support of gay marriage split between the democrats and the republicans. You'll probably find astronomically higher from democrat voters. While the UK on the surface seems to care less about mixing religion with politics, a right-leaning party in government is still the one on a rampage against sexual content. Potentially furthering a correlation between disgust sensitivity and right wing views.

Edit: On the note of religion in the UK, views in a secular society do change with time. Often, the more you drag people into the reality that God isn't opening up the ground below them to send the country to hell for gay marriage, and that gay married people just... exist in society like them, the more attitudes change incrementally over time. In saying that though, Catholicism and Christianity are often making greater strides than Islam in the UK. It's a newer religion growing in the UK, and globally, even with the America bible-belt being included, it is far more authoritarian and right-wing than any other Religion. Still, a lot of research will backup, no matter the religious ideology, you'll find large increases in authoritarian behaviour, and potentially disgust sensitivity, from the followers.
 

empyrean

Member
Just spoke with someone who effectively said in an ideal world they would vote for socialist ideals and vote labour...but it isn't an ideal world so they are going to vote tory......ummmmm? lol.

apparently they want someone 'strong' (whatever that means) negotiating brexit and apparently Theresa May is strong....when asking for evidence for this belief they were unable to provide any.
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
😨

PPa4Ieg.jpg
 
Just spoke with someone who effectively said in an ideal world they would vote for socialist ideals and vote labour...but it isn't an ideal world so they are going to vote tory......ummmmm? lol.

apparently they want someone 'strong' (whatever that means) negotiating brexit and apparently Theresa May is strong....when asking for evidence for this belief they were unable to provide any.
And this is what is fucking wrong with our country.

We have a population that has been brought up through education and our press to believe that we are a strong and great country and we need to take tough stances to fight what we believe.

Of course when those same influencers are also dismissing social responsibility and attacking anyone who take advantage of those it builds to a bunch of uneducated, patriot robots who react to buzz words.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
😨

I really don't understand why the Liberal Democrats think this will be effective. The Conservatives' lead is overwhelmingly being generated by UKIP voters moving towards the Conservatives. This isn't going to scare them off - if anything, it's going to cement their decision. The only group it might have some play with is more liberal Conservatives... but the Liberal Democrats have noticeably tacked left since 2010, so they're sending out very mixed messages on that front.

Honestly, their whole messaging and positioning has been a shambles.
 

Audioboxer

Member
I really don't understand why the Liberal Democrats think this will be effective. The Conservatives' lead is overwhelmingly being generated by UKIP voters moving towards the Conservatives. This isn't going to scare them off - if anything, it's going to cement their decision. The only group it might have some play with is more liberal Conservatives... but the Liberal Democrats have noticeably tacked left since 2010, so they're sending out very mixed messages on that front.

Honestly, their whole messaging and positioning has been a shambles.

Gotta agree. It's tabloid level marketing, which irrespective of if funny/true, it's not going to help to recruit to your party.
 

Ashes

Banned
A lot of psychology around emotions/thinking is about indicators and likelihoods. It's not to say if you find x, y will always be the outcome. More-so, if you find x, the chances of y being an outcome may be affected in a positive or negative way.

With humans, there are always outliers and those who do not conform to research. With the way May and her party act, however, many of the dominoes are falling down the paths you'd expect.

If we're talking how people vote rather than the party, a lot of the same findings still come into play. Take America for a striking example, just guess what you think the findings are for support of gay marriage split between the democrats and the republicans. You'll probably find astronomically higher from democrat voters. While the UK on the surface seems to care less about mixing religion with politics, a right-leaning party in government is still the one on a rampage against sexual content. Potentially furthering a correlation between disgust sensitivity and right wing views.

Edit: On the note of religion in the UK, views in a secular society do change with time. Often, the more you drag people into the reality that God isn't opening up the ground below them to send the country to hell for gay marriage, and that gay married people just... exist in society like them, the more attitudes change incrementally over time. In saying that though, Catholicism and Christianity are often making greater strides than Islam in the UK. It's a newer religion growing in the UK, and globally, even with the America bible-belt being included, it is far more authoritarian and right-wing than any other Religion. Still, a lot of research will backup, no matter the religious ideology, you'll find large increases in authoritarian behaviour, and potentially disgust sensitivity, from the followers.

So the religious tend to hold more right wing views, and Muslims are more extreme in that they are a newer religion in Britain, so how do you explain that most Muslims vote for Labour*, or at least intend to do so. In the last election upwards of 70 per cent wanted to do so, even when labour had historically low support with the British public.

Like I said, when you try to rationalise the voting public, it makes sense on paper, that people reading the mail or the sun would be voting tory, but unless recent research shows differently, the correlation really isn't that strong.

*
Muslims are already the religious group most likely to vote Labour, with nearly three quarters intending to vote for Ed Miliband's party, according to the British Election Study.
The figures, released last year, show 73 per cent of Muslims intend to vote Labour, compared to only 14.9 per cent intending to vote Conservative and 7.3 per cent Liberal Democrat.

And you'll remember how Muslims oppose the war in Iraq, Afghanistan etc.. they still vote labour. How people vote can't be distilled into things that feel like sensible rational answers. At least not with the data set we currently have.
 

I think I have a new avatar.

I really don't understand why the Liberal Democrats think this will be effective.

1. It is entertaining and eye-catching. We are talking about it!
2. Tory squeeze.

We will never win over a UKIP voter whilst we are pitching being pro-EU. We are too different. We can, however, talk directly to Lib Dem and Tory leaning voters.

Our squeeze message is that the palatable face of the Tories is actually the face of a party that has been taken over by UKIP. A vote for May is a vote for the kind of Britain Nigel Farage wants. That's the core of our campaign to voters who we think can switch to us - or worse, might be switched away from us.

But tbh this a funny poster regardless.
 

Chinner

Banned
Just spoke with someone who effectively said in an ideal world they would vote for socialist ideals and vote labour...but it isn't an ideal world so they are going to vote tory......ummmmm? lol.

apparently they want someone 'strong' (whatever that means) negotiating brexit and apparently Theresa May is strong....when asking for evidence for this belief they were unable to provide any.
Pro tip: they're not really progressive in views, they just like the label of being forward thinking.
 

Spaghetti

Member
😨
That's a rubbish photoshop job but... it aint' wrong. I think someone else on here said "the Conservatives have won the battle [against UKIP], but lost the war".

I don't think it's irrelevant. I suspect everything's going to unravel over in the 'States and we'll have Pence as a President soon - they're way closer to stability than we are with Brexit (caveat being I don't know Pence much - but he has got to be better qualified than The Donald).


When May's promising to create the great firewall of Britain to censor the net? No. Given that, I couldn't give two shits about about Trump.
I probably should have elaborated my position; it's just general apathy/malaise in the face of a bad situation domestically, a bad situation abroad, a weakening of democracy, and just the inevitable feeling of getting fucked once the GE is over.

At least watching Trump go down in flames is entertaining.
 

Jezbollah

Member
The general level of apathy is no better than it was in the last couple of elections IMO. Probably worse given the state of the Labour party leadership, but not as bad as it might be if Labour hadnt been doing relatively so well and the Tories so meh in the current campaign.
 

Audioboxer

Member
So the religious tend to hold more right wing views, and Muslims are more extreme in that they are a newer religion in Britain, so how do you explain that most Muslims vote for Labour*, or at least intend to do so. In the last election upwards of 70 per cent wanted to do so, even when labour had historically low support with the British public.

Like I said, when you try to rationalise the voting public, it makes sense on paper, that people reading the mail or the sun would be voting tory, but unless recent research shows differently, the correlation really isn't that strong.

*

And you'll remember how Muslims oppose the war in Iraq, Afghanistan etc.. they still vote labour. How people vote can't be distilled into things that feel like sensible rational answers. At least not with the data set we currently have.

Anti-immigration stances are incredibly detrimental to Muslims/Islam, as it's a religion that tends to come to the UK via immigration. Almost all followers will either exclusively be 1st/2nd/3rd wave immigrants. That's almost the case anywhere in the West where Islam is. Christianity/Catholicism was brought here a far longer time period ago. Western enlightenment is largely based on Christianity as well.

I'll say it again, it's not one shoe fit all, it's always about observing behaviour and coming to conclusions of likelihood. Religion is an offshoot of discussion, and as it stands in the UK our separation of Church and state means politics and religion often do not mix on face value. Although, Queen and Country still does have a lot of ties to the Church of England. However, none of the parties we can choose from really rule/dictate by religious standings or even really talk about religion. Tony Blair was a bit of a religious nut, but most of that was kept to his personal views (although sadly some of it seeped into why we went to War). Whereas in America the republican party is still often seeped in ties to Christianity. The UK is far more secular than the US. Attitudes in the UK around homosexuality are often better looked at via social factors (or religious) than they are what political party is being voted for. You can also vote for a party for one reason (say immigration or taxes) and then still hold right-wing views about something like gay marriage/homosexuality/etc. Heck, I have some seriously devout Catholics in my family, many of whom express they do not agree with homosexuality/gay marriage, and they vote SNP. The SNP being one of the most progressive on LGBT issues. One has to hope if a progressive party keep getting most of the votes, views will slowly change, and that research I linked to earlier shows this does happen, even amongst religious people.

Anyway, going a bit off-topic. May/the Conservatives are the real focus here, not so much the voter's beliefs, although sympathies for certain ideologies/beliefs in majority Conservative camps do often show trends that show why May acts how she does. The Conservative party are veering further right than they have before and it's no surprise how they then hoover up UKIP voters. A lot of the Conservative viewpoints around immigration are authoritarian and probably some elements of disgust come into it (racism is often steeped in high disgust sensitivity). I mean, christ, Hitler went on to try and wipe out a whole race partially based on disgust. He himself being a right nutcase when it came to cleanliness as well, from going from cleanliness around dirt/rubbish to then taking it to a whole race, the Jews, are dirty/unpure/need to be eradicated. The gas chambers based around gases that were used to kill unclean vermin, rats/rodents, being used on humans. I mean, that's as fundamental as you can get, but varying levels of disgust for another race/ideology/group will tend to show up more in right-wing beliefs.

ps. No, it doesn't mean anyone who votes Conservative is "literally Hitler". I'll leave that source of rhetoric for the internet to use as a form of "discourse". The points above were to try and highlight what disgust sensitivity is arguably like when it goes to its furthest level of intensity ~ Trying to wipe out people/violent racism. With nearly everything in life, there is a massive scale from 0 to 100. The majority of people falling into categories that do not include genocide. However, a lot of unnecessary suffering can still come from varying levels of right-wing views. Although, forms of suffering know no political bounds, people can cause suffering no matter where they fall on the political spectrum. Life is suffering and it's about how we best know how to cope with that and try to aid those in need (which does include yourself, martyrdom is not a noble cause, it's destructive). Hence why at the end of the day every country does still need immigration vetting. The question is whether or not those powers are being abused, not that they shouldn't exist.
 

s_mirage

Member
Who here is going to protest blocking porn? We're still all pretending in politics that porn isn't ubiquitous. That's the funny thing. I don't think this is to do with security. They just want to control porn - not for moral reasons but - for copyright issues. They're all just embarrassed to be upfront and own up to talking about porn.

I would. Oh, I would so love to confront Teresa May about this. I'd love to see her reaction to a frank discussion about it.

I honestly don't think it's copyright that's the issue here. Unlike Hollywood and the music industry, I really doubt the UK porn industry has enough clout to make the government consider this course. They've haven't succeeded in slackening content regulations in a long time, which is something that could help them too.

I do believe that the anti-porn position is coming from moral busibodying. Cameron brought in ISP level controls, but now they're going with age verification, which could be censorship through the backdoor, when it turned out that people chose not to use them. It's a classic "I know what's best for you", moral busibody attitude.

Now May seeks to extend the powers further. They already have the power to demand removal of hate speech, block pirate sites, block/remove child porn, and now require age verification for adult sites. Just what do they need more power for?
 

Ashes

Banned
I would. Oh, I would so love to confront Teresa May about this. I'd love to see her reaction to a frank discussion about it.

I honestly don't think it's copyright that's the issue here. Unlike Hollywood and the music industry, I really doubt the UK porn industry has enough clout to make the government consider this course. They've haven't succeeded in slackening content regulations in a long time, which is something that could help them too.

I do believe that the anti-porn position is coming from moral busibodying. Cameron brought in ISP level controls, but now they're going with age verification, which could be censorship through the backdoor, when it turned out that people chose not to use them. It's a classic "I know what's best for you", moral busibody attitude.

Now May seeks to extend the powers further. They already have the power to demand removal of hate speech, block pirate sites, block/remove child porn, and now require age verification for adult sites. Just what do they need more power for?

Yeah, thinking about it, you're probably right.
 

Jezbollah

Member
The more I think about the whole Internet thing with the Tories the more I think it's something they want to have in their pocket to address down the line - I don't at all think it's something they've seriously thought about, or have any kind of capability to put in any kind of non-totalitarian solution - the fact its in there gives them an option to say "it's in our mandate" a few years from now.

(thats about as much sense as I can read into this whole deal. It's still lunacy).
 

Audioboxer

Member
Feck off Corbyn, have a bit more backbone in your supposed ideological beliefs

Labour is "committed" to renewing Trident nuclear weapons, Jeremy Corbyn has stressed, after disagreement between two of his frontbenchers.

On Friday, shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry suggested that Labour might change its stance on the weapons after holding a review if it won power.

Shadow defence secretary Nia Griffiths disputed this, saying Labour was "fully committed" to the nuclear deterrent.

The Conservatives say Labour would put the UK's security "at risk".

Speaking to reporters after a rally in Birmingham, Mr Corbyn said: "The manifesto makes it very clear that the Labour Party has come to a decision and is committed to Trident.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39984070

Yet again running scared because the Tories said: "Labour are a security risk!". So, let's just commit to wasting billions and parroting the same old line "We support dismantling but... WE AIN'T DOING IT FIRST LOL".

9UzDWg6.png


Case in point. What a load of fear-mongering bullshit.

1KmrYwC.png


Sure thing May, but I look forward to you saying "Scotland is divided" when it comes to an indyref up here.

xFp24dC.png


And lastly, who would've though UKIP and...
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
CON: 46% (-)
LAB: 34% (+2)
LDEM: 7% (-1)
UKIP: 7% (-) (via @ORB_int / 17 - 18 May)

Fieldwork is from before the widely panned Conservative manifesto, too.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
 

Jackpot

Banned
xFp24dC.png


And lastly, who would've though UKIP and...

Let's take a look.

https://hopenothate.org.uk/2017/05/17/this-week-ukip-racism/

Time 4 all sane whites 2 leave & let the Africans fight each other rather than innocent blood

Africa is where humans are animals and animals human. It is true.

Is Pakistan a country inhabited by humans or animals

It won’t be long before the Chinese start eating human meat. It maybe a super power but they are like animals

And there's worse from UKIP candidates who haven't had support withdrawn.
 

Jezbollah

Member
CON: 46% (-)
LAB: 34% (+2)
LDEM: 7% (-1)
UKIP: 7% (-) (via @ORB_int / 17 - 18 May)

Fieldwork is from before the widely panned Conservative manifesto, too.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.

I think 46/34/7/7 is probably going to be close to the numbers we see on election night tbh.

Seems like the 7/7 for LD/UKIP is the solid base.
 
Also, reminder of the best possible policy for Britain's nuclear deterrent:

http://www.centreforum.org/assets/pubs/retiring-trident.pdf
I'm down with this and I'm a fan of the fact it boosts our conventional force projection but I'm conscious of the fact that aircraft carrier groups and land RAF bases are somewhat more conspicuous than a submarine which is has to be a concern in the event of a retaliatory strike. Also why does it need to be F35-C's? Purely because the B's range is less?
 

Santiako

Member
Well, I think I've finally had enough of this circus. I do not like where the country is heading at all, so after over 5 years of living in the UK I'll be heading back to Spain after the summer. If this is what the tories want I guess they are succeeding.

:(
 

Jackpot

Banned
I'm down with this and I'm a fan of the fact it boosts our conventional force projection but I'm conscious of the fact that aircraft carrier groups and land RAF bases are somewhat more conspicuous than a submarine which is has to be a concern in the event of a retaliatory strike. Also why does it need to be F35-C's? Purely because the B's range is less?

B can do skiramps but C is carrier compatible with stronger landing gear for the arrestor cable and folding wings.
 
I think 46/34/7/7 is probably going to be close to the numbers we see on election night tbh.

Seems like the 7/7 for LD/UKIP is the solid base.

At the moment my prediction is something like 45/32/8/5. The polls tomorrow will be when I certain up, though. I'm not seeing any reason that the LD vote would shift upwards from 8-ish without Labour imploding, as it was Labour's weakness earlier in the campaign that fed into us doing better.

What's frustrating is that this is mostly down to external factors and probably some internal failings, especially around what seems to be an over-emphasis on a referendum on the final EU deal, as much as that's a good idea.

Current LD seat count if the poll was held tomorrow would be between zero and ten seats, I think. Too much risk of the Portillo Moment being Tim Farron.

Pretty much all the usual doom-and-gloom heads internally are sounding off.

I'm hoping this is just me being on a downer today, but it's not really looking all that good for us.
 
I think the talk of the catapults + F35cs on the QE2 carriers is a case of barn door vs bolted horse tbh.

Generally yeah, but in the context of it replacing the ~£100bn investment in a successor to the Vanguards it's a significantly cheaper option (and the F35-C is a more capable aircraft in almost all ways, even if it can't do the cool bowing shit at Farnborough).

B can do skiramps but C is carrier compatible with stronger landing gear for the arrestor cable and folding wings.

I just did a bit more reading from that report, and it seems that the B's weapons bays are simply too small for the B61, a consequence of it needing to shed weight for VTOL.
 

Jezbollah

Member
I think the problem is that the conversion to catapults + F35Cs has already been mooted and subsequently decided against - there would already be a political fallout (pardon the pun) to scrapping Trident - add in the fact that there would be delays in bringing in the QE2 carriers (and F35s if we're going from Bs to Cs) makes it quite the potential political shitshow.
 
Given how safe the Conservatives have played the campaign so far I'm amazed how poor their manifesto is. Perhaps they were hoping people would fall asleep and forget by page 46?

Momentum (Haaaaaaa..) seems to be with Labour at the moment. I think we'll see the polls tighten next week. I expect the campaign to turn real nasty, "something-something Corbyn IRA/Al Qaeda/Jam Maker" etc...

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the results mirror that of 2015. May with a small majority, Corbyn performs admirably enough to retain support of the party membership, and the SNP providing the real opposition at PMQs. LDs continue to exist in the background.

I wonder what such a result would do for May's credibility as leader?
 

Jezbollah

Member
If corbyn win this will labour backbenchers still want to get rid of him? still do a lot of in fighting.

Labour will not win the election. There will be a lot of the party who still wants to get rid of him, but if Labour win a bigger share than 2015, Corbyn may position himself on that basis to remain leader. He's also campaigning quite hard in high labour membership areas that are not marginals, so there's a lot of post election postering already part of their current plans.
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
What's frustrating is that this is mostly down to external factors and probably some internal failings, especially around what seems to be an over-emphasis on a referendum on the final EU deal, as much as that's a good idea.

With all due respect, that's an awful, populist idea that doesn't excite many voters.

What would be the point? Vote no and there's no deal and no indication that anything can or will reverse Brexit.
 
Arj Singh @singharj

Corbyn tells off a supporter for shouting that Wirral West's previous Tory MP Esther McVey was a "witch". JC: "we don't use unkind words"
5:06 pm · 20 May 2017

Ha, Corbyn would have a heart attack if he saw the language and rhetoric I've seen on my Facebook news feed recently. Witch is pretty tame! :p
 

Empty

Member
If corbyn win this will labour backbenchers still want to get rid of him? still do a lot of in fighting.

corbyn won't win the election, but he will do a lot better than people expected. just six months ago you could find the broadsheets full of editorials talking about how labour were heading to their lowest vote post ww2, pincered between a resurgent lib dems who through opposing brexit are thriving with graduates and ukip savaging their working class base. neither of those have happened, ukip and lib dems have struggle to get any traction with voters, and while corbyn has been rightfully criticised for a shambolic media operation in the past, the labour campaign has been very professionally run indeed.

however it's first past the post and with the tory vote in the high forties and regional differences in swings (labour piling up votes in areas where it's not very helpful) there's a high chance of corbyn doing better than miliband in vote share (possibly even matching blair in 05 lol) but losing a whole lot of seats anyway. it's also unavoidable that may has got her vote so high by running a presidential campaign that exploited corbyn's personal unpopularity and people associating him with weakness as we enter brexit and labour haven't looked like taking any tory votes despite the tories trying to get a bunch of unpopular stuff out there while they can get away with it.

so there's no clean result internally really (on current evidence) and as such there will be lots and lots of infighting afterwards
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
The two highest parties could get the largest vote share between them in a long time, given the apparent strength of the Tories, the collapse of UKIP, and the continued weakness of the Lib Dems.

One issue for Labour though going forward is that they could once rely on a majority of seats in Scotland and Wales.

Wales might get a seat reduction and it's been leaning more Conservative lately, while Scotland already had that and its vote distribution has also changed for the most part.

Also, Labour has not won the popular vote in England since 2001, despite also winning an overall majority of seats in 2005.

There's a fair amount of hurdles for Labour to climb in the future, though retaining every seat they can should be key for them now.
 
Labour will not win the election. There will be a lot of the party who still wants to get rid of him, but if Labour win a bigger share than 2015, Corbyn may position himself on that basis to remain leader. He's also campaigning quite hard in high labour membership areas that are not marginals, so there's a lot of post election postering already part of their current plans.

While I don't believe for one second May is going to lose (sadly), I'll spend results day with a smug smirk on my face if she doesn't manage to increase her majority, or somehow returns with a smaller one.
 

Jezbollah

Member
While I don't believe for one second May is going to lose (sadly), I'll spend results day with a smug smirk on my face if she doesn't manage to increase her majority, or somehow returns with a smaller one.

I think the collapse and relocation of the UKUP vote (back??) to the conservatives will mean the Tories gain around 30 seats. Given the polling and state of Labour six months ago, that will be seen as a poor showing by the Tories and a much better performance by Labour (with Corbyn strengthening his position even though he will lose).
 

satriales

Member
The two highest parties could get the largest vote share between them in a long time, given the apparent strength of the Tories, the collapse of UKIP, and the continued weakness of the Lib Dems.
I think after UKIPs lack of seats won last time people are more aware of how unfair the voting system is. And with the two main parties offering drastically different policies, people are more inclined to pick on of the those two than 'waste' a vote on a smaller party.
 
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