Support NeoGAF

[Spuck-uk]

Yes, obviously. Which is why the LD manifesto was largely greenlit by them, despite that having a similarly progressive taxation pledge in it.

Refer to my edit. Taken from here, so you don't think I'm pulling it out of my arse. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/jun/03/the-big-issue-labour-manifesto-what-economy-needs

You're clinging on that IFS report because it supports your bias.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

You're clinging on that IFS report because it supports your bias.

You've not disproven the IFS, you've posted a copypasta.

There's probably a naked Mario hidden in there somewhere.

 

[TheChaos0]

Humour me for a moment here, Huw. Yes, we know you're in the LD party but this is a genuine question.

Knowing that literally anyone bar UKIP/Con would be better for this country, if you were at the polling station on Thursday and you knew that it was a close race between Labour and Conservatives with Lib Dem not having any chance of a win - what would you do?

Would you hold your nose and tactically vote? I know in my area the best chance to remove a Tory is voting LD so that's where I'll be going, but I want an idea of what that means to someone in the party.

I know that this is directed at someone in particular but I would personally vote for Labour in such a case, even though I support Lib Dems, because it would be better for the country. Since our electoral system is what it is, sometimes it's better to give up your 1st choice vote and vote tactically to get closer to where you want to be. Which is why we need need an electoral reform...

 

[Spuck-uk]

You've not disproven the IFS, you've posted a copypasta.

There's a link RIGHT THERE. 80+ economists versus one think tank.

And hey, if they cancel each other out, fine, you're then working on an assumption that the Labour social policies are as bad as the Tories, which is really indefensible.

 

[Moze]

I wonder how many Lib dem voters are tactical voters. The tactical vote seems to be their main appeal this election.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

There's a link RIGHT THERE. 80+ economists versus one think tank.

That isn't disproving the IFS.

You can say "lots of economists support Corbyn". Considering there are many millions of Labour voters out there, I don't think that's terribly unlikely. You can also, as I have done, actually read analysis.

Find me an analysis that disproves the IFS study.

 

[Spuck-uk]

I know that this is directed at someone in particular but I would personally vote for Labour in such a case, even though I support Lib Dems, because it would be better for the country. Since our electoral system is what it is, sometimes it's better to give up your 1st choice vote and vote tactically to get closer to where you want to be. Which is why we need need an electoral reform...

I'd honestly vote for the Lib Dems if it I was in a Con/Lib close seat. I mean, they might just flip to the tories again, but with the system we have tactical voting is just how it is.

Taking a stand and letting in the conservatives is odious.

 

[jem0208]

From my experience a lib demo voter is generally a step away from becoming a tory voter.

The Lib Dems are centrist party so of course if you lean left comparatively they're going to seem right leaning.

It's like the BBC, it's actually pretty neutral but because of that the right think it's biased to the left and the left think it's biased to the right.

 

[Spuck-uk]

That isn't disproving the IFS.

You can say "lots of economists support Corbyn". Considering there are many millions of Labour voters out there, I don't think that's terribly unlikely. You can also, as I have done, actually read analysis.

Find me an analysis that disproves the IFS study.

Read. The. Article.

Unless you think Oxford professors of Economics care more about partisan politics than their professional careers.

 

[Pixieking]

I will be voting Liberal Democrat in Edmonton on Thursday.

I refuse to vote for any party not committed to electoral reform, and I refuse to vote for any party that is committed to leaving the Single Market.

From my perspective, I believe Labour and the Conservatives are equally bad for this country.

The more I look at UK elections and electorate, the more it seems to resemble the US elections and electorate. Case in point, this post, which lacks all kinds of nuance as it focuses on two issues.

Labour and the Conservatives are equally bad for this country.

In terms of Europe/Brexit, sure. In terms of electoral reform, sure.

In terms of everything else, from the environment, through social issues, to housing, you're having a laugh m8. But of course, single-issue extremism is what helped drive a wedge between Hillary voters and Bernie Bros. If people can't see how much better Labour is for everything outside of two causes, then we're doomed, just like those US voters who couldn't hold-their-nose and vote for Hillary, because of her stance on Wall Street.

Also, just to make clear, I am absolutely against Labour's stance on Brexit, and would much rather vote LibDem. But like hell I'm going to risk the Conservatives gaining power through my "wasted" vote.

 

[Spuck-uk]

The Lib Dems are centrist party so of course if you lean left comparatively they're going to seem right leaning.

It's like the BBC, it's actually pretty neutral but because of that the right think it's biased to the left and the left think it's biased to the right.

The BBC was relatively neutral, I've always believed that, until the last few years.

There really aren't any unbiased sources.

Papers biased for the Tories: Mail, Telegraph, Sun, Times etc

Paper biased for Labour: The Independent

Paper probably going to back the Lib Dems: The Guardian (they super hate losing Labour leadership to Corbyn)


Even the ones that support your 'side' are skewed and you have to accept it.

 

[Real Hero]

Saying there both the same really is just a cheap Lib Dem tactic.

 

[Ravensmash]

I'd honestly vote for the Lib Dems if it I was in a Con/Lib close seat. I mean, they might just flip to the tories again, but with the system we have tactical voting is just how it is.

Taking a stand and letting in the conservatives is odious.

Yeah, it's far more likely for labour to be the closest party in my area too.

I'm in an ultra safe Tory seat, so anything to reduce the majority.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Also, just to make clear, I am absolutely against Labour's stance on Brexit.

Same here.

It's not a vote on a single issue though.

 

[cyberheater]

I postal voted Labour. Let's hope it counts.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

It's like the BBC, it's actually pretty neutral but because of that the right think it's biased to the left and the left think it's biased to the right.

The BBC copied and pasted a picture of Jeremy Corbyn into a picture of Bin Ladin there is no "think" about it. The BBC are nothing but a propaganda arm of the government.

Read. The. Article.

Unless you think Oxford professors of Economics care more about partisan politics than their professional careers.

I think we can safely say that Huw is tired of experts spouting off (or at least tired of experts that don't confirm his bias).

 

[TimmmV]

You've not disproven the IFS, you've posted a copypasta.

There's probably a naked Mario hidden in there somewhere.

Huw, you seem like a nice guy and all, but your Lib Dem zealotry genuinely does more harm to your point than good

You should also know better than the "they are as bad as each other" argument, that kind of logic being deemed acceptable is whats giving the world shit like Trump and Brexit, and has been thoroughly debunked on this forum and elsewhere.

I wonder how many Lib dem voters are tactical voters. The tactical vote seems to be their main appeal this election.

Also part of the reason why they got absolutely destroyed in 2015 - any tactical voting from Labour or "left alliance" type supporters in 2010 was totally betrayed by them forming a coalition. I know its anecdotal but most people I know who voted Lib Dem then will have fitted into this category

It's like the BBC, it's actually pretty neutral but because of that the right think it's biased to the left and the left think it's biased to the right.

I used to agree with this, but really don't think its true anymore. The BBC have been a disgrace with unfair coverage of Corbyn during this election at the very least.

 

[*Splinter]

Taking a stand and letting in the conservatives is odious.

Iff you prefer Labour to the Tories, which is a foolish assumption to make about a Lib Dem supporter. The party aims for the middle ground, they will naturally pick up supporters leaning in either direction.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

The BBC copied and pasted a picture of Jeremy Corbyn into a picture of Bin Ladin there is no "think" about it. The BBC are nothing but a propaganda arm of the government.

When did this happen?

 

[JonathanEx]

The BBC was relatively neutral, I've always believed that, until the last few years.

I think the best description is that they're not particularly left/right (some individual presenters is different) but they tend to defend the 'establishment' (as in the status quo rather than the scary illuminati covering up everything). So things are seen as default as they're the way things are, so anyone questioning that faces a harsher ride rather than those defending the way things are.

 

[ecosse_011172]

Yes I do.

I think Labour would cause us cataclysmic economic harm by ripping us out of the Single Market and then raising taxes. I think their government would be disunified and ineffective. I don't think there has been any real evidence of economic competence displayed by Labour, especially as their "fully costed" manifesto was viewed with severe scepticism by the IFS.

I think the Conservatives risk economic cataclysm via leaving the Single Market, and they've got their eyes on smashing the welfare state.

Labour have their heart in the right place, the Tories have their economics at least plausible. Neither of them has any answers to the massive questions of Britain's democracy, its regions, its place in the world or the future. They are both regressive, backwards-looking parties that want to find solace in reheating the battles of the 70's and 80's.

They are as bad as each other.

No, they're not.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

When did this happen?

Yesterday morning, I shared a tweet on here yesterday that had the 4 images used, clearly biased ones at that.

I don't think the BBC are biased for the Tories, it's just they are so scared of them being accused of bias that they have completely minimised their labour coverage and increased their tory stuff.

Of course the results are the same, labour are clearly being portrayed as worse or more controversial and the Tories are just a bunch of strong and stable sound bites.

 

[liquidtmd]

In terms of Europe/Brexit, sure. In terms of electoral reform, sure.

In terms of everything else, from the environment, through social issues, to housing, you're having a laugh m8. But of course, single-issue extremism is what helped drive a wedge between Hillary voters and Bernie Bros. If people can't see how much better Labour is for everything outside of two causes, then we're doomed, just like those US voters who couldn't hold-their-nose and vote for Hillary, because of her stance on Wall Street.

Also, just to make clear, I am absolutely against Labour's stance on Brexit, and would much rather vote LibDem. But like hell I'm going to risk the Conservatives gaining power through my "wasted" vote.

Amen, this is my take also.

"They are as bad as each other" is simply not good enough anymore. If you don't fully grasp the ideological differences between the manifestos released, I don't know what to tell you

 

[Spuck-uk]

Iff you prefer Labour to the Tories, which is a foolish assumption to make about a Lib Dem supporter. The party aims for the middle ground, they will naturally pick up supporters leaning in either direction.

I'm biased and regard supporting the Conservatives as horrible though, I'll hold my hand up to that.

 

[Meadows]

I'm biased and regard supporting the Conservatives as horrible though, I'll hold my hand up to that.

Holy shit really? I hadn't noticed, what with you calling people that vote Conservatives "rats" the other day/

 

[*Splinter]

I think we can safely say that Huw is tired of experts spouting off (or at least tired of experts that don't confirm his bias).

So... Similar to how everyone else here is willing to ignore the IFS?

I'd love to see some ideas on how/why this list of economists and the IFS came to opposing conclusions, but just pointing at the side that agree with you and saying "nuh uh these are the real experts" is no use to anyone.

"Waa bias" isn't a good enough answer either.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Read. The. Article.

Unless you think Oxford professors of Economics care more about partisan politics than their professional careers.

I did read the letter. It says "we think Labour's economics are better than the Conservative's".

Which is not hard, when the Conservative economic model is extremely disruptive and largely uncosted.

But again, a letter signed by a bunch of economists saying "Labour's is better" is not the same thing as my point, which is that I don't think Labour's costings add up - particularly on their pledge to only tax 5% of earners, and also their pledge to ratchet up corporation tax well over what the LDs propose.

Bear in mind - the LDs are proposing by and large what Labour are - except not as much, and without leaving the Single Market.

The government's own figures cost leaving the Single Market - for some tariff-free trade deal - as ultimately costing the British economy something like £36 billion pounds a year.

So no - I do not think Labour's economic proposals this election make an iota of sense. They want to do massive damage to our economy by leaving the Single Market, they won't get the money they're asking for by squeezing those who find it the easiest to move their money away from the hands of our taxmen, and they won't get it by increasing corporation tax to pretty high levels.

Labour want to spend this money on bailouts for the middle class - keeping non-means tested winter fuel payments and scrapping tuition fees. That's not money for the many.

But we could go on. Why is it that the LDs, not Labour, were regarded as the party offering the least cuts in wealth to the poor? Why is it that the LDs are committed to ending the benefits freeze when Labour are not? Why is it that Labour still have not given any real detail about how a Labour Brexit would look beyond single sentence platitudes?

Labour's manifesto this year is populist, not socialist. The Tory manifesto is not conservative, it's cruel.

I am hoping for a hung parliament not because I want Corbyn in Number 10, but because it's literally the least bad option present on the table right now.

Your thin veil belies your immodesty. Labour has no real answers to the problems facing Britain, and will continue to do so as it endorses our unequal democracy, Brexit and believing that the state has the answers to all the world's needs.

I apologise if my centrism offends you, and I apologise that I am unwilling to hitch my wagon to the Corbyn bus in some attempt to simply kick the Tories out.

But what I ultimately hope from this election is that the parties of the centre-left in British politics survive and grow in the years ahead. I am a student of History, and I know that Labour, for all its Momentum members and Corbynites proclaim, will never win from the left. If Labour is headed to permanent encampment there, the Tories win by default.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

When did this happen?

Happened a few days ago, there wasn't much of an outrage about it simply because there is that much shit going on right now that we are spoilt for choice in what to get outraged over.

Holy shit really? I hadn't noticed, what with you calling people that vote Conservatives "rats" the other day/

Rats !! really damn that is horrible. I mean rats are lovely creatures and can make excellent pets. I dunno get a rap just cos you brought the bubonic plague to Europe and you get used as a slur for being a conservative.

But yeah I have to go with Spuck-uk when you see the misery and suffering the Tories are causing I honestly cannot understand how any one can vote Tory and that is before you take into account the utter horse shit that the Tories are spouting with their "strong and stable" cobblers.

 

[Wvrs]

Paper probably going to back the Lib Dems: The Guardian (they super hate losing Labour leadership to Corbyn).

The Guardian have come out for Labour

Doesn't make up for the years of Corbyn bashing though.

 

[Ashes]

I'm surprised more hasn't been made about board pay reform.
Yahoo's Marrisa Mayer got about 900,000 a week during her reign. I mean that is in the US, but corporate governance has been a hot potato on this side of the pond too.

 

[*Splinter]

Question for Labour supporters

Is it possible for a political party to be "too far left" for you to support them? Pretending they had a chance of winning of course.

 

[Ashes]

Question for Labour supporters

Is it possible for a political party to be "too far left" for you to support them? Pretending they had a chance of winning of course.

Yes.

 

[Maledict]

I do think people need to remember the OP and refrain from attacking people for their votes. Go for the parties, their platforms and their leaders absolutely, but it crosses a line when we start attacking people who vote for those politicians. No matter how strongly we feel about things, this thread is better off for having people of all political stripes posting in - otherwise we may as well call it Labour Gaf and have it done.

 

[gngf123]

Question for Labour supporters

Is it possible for a political party to be "too far left" for you to support them? Pretending they had a chance of winning of course.

Yes, but in the grand scheme of things Labour really aren't that far left. It only seems like it because the Overton window is so far to the right. Corbyn is basically just a traditional democratic socialist.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

Question for Labour supporters

Is it possible for a political party to be "too far left" for you to support them? Pretending they had a chance of winning of course.

Yes of course it is possible to be "too far left" just as I am sure if the Tories went "too far right" you would stop supporting them (think internment camps for people on benefits). I want a country that is fair for everyone, right now the Tories have turned this country into a playground for the rich under the guise of "the wealth will trickle down".

Do I want the rich and corporations to be taxed to hell and back ? No I don't, I want people to succeed I want there to be rich people but at the same time I firmly believe they are NOT contributing as much to society as they have in the past and should be doing now

 

[Meadows]

Rats !! really damn that is horrible. I mean rats are lovely creatures and can make excellent pets. I dunno get a rap just cos you brought the bubonic plague to Europe and you get used as a slur for being a conservative.

But yeah I have to go with Spuck-uk when you see the misery and suffering the Tories are causing I honestly cannot understand how any one can vote Tory and that is before you take into account the utter horse shit that the Tories are spouting with their "strong and stable" cobblers.

So you think that around 45% of the UK electorate are "rats"

 

[Maledict]

Yes, but in the grand scheme of things Labour really aren't that far left. It only seems like it because the Overton window is so far to the right. Corbyn is basically just a traditional democratic socialist.

Um, no he isn't. Now, the current manifesto is more centrist than expected, and he's moderated his views on a number of things, but Corbyn himself is absolutely hard left. He's been against Brexit and the EU since day one, he supported various iconoclastic far left groups and causes over the years, and some of his policy announcements in years past are absolutely looney left territory.

Now, I'm fine with him moderating and changing his views in leadership / that's a strength for me, not a weakness. But Corbyn as a man is not just a usual democratic socialist.

 

[Thornton Reed]

Question for Labour supporters

Is it possible for a political party to be "too far left" for you to support them? Pretending they had a chance of winning of course.

Yes

 

[Real Hero]

Question for Labour supporters

Is it possible for a political party to be "too far left" for you to support them? Pretending they had a chance of winning of course.

Depends what you mean by too far left

 

[*Splinter]

Yes of course it is possible to be "too far left" just as I am sure if the Tories went "too far right" you would stop supporting them (think internment camps for people on benefits). I want a country that is fair for everyone, right now the Tories have turned this country into a playground for the rich under the guise of "the wealth will trickle down".

Do I want the rich and corporations to be taxed to hell and back ? No I don't, I want people to succeed I want there to be rich people but at the same time I firmly believe they are NOT contributing as much to society as they have in the past and should be doing now

I am a Labour supporter too, fyi. I just find "Tories bad, Labour good" too simple to be useful or even realistic. The argument for the right is underrepresented in here, but I want to understand more of it even if I'll never agree with it.




Ok, so why wouldn't people vote for this hypothetical "too far left" party? And what about your position would be different to the current Lib Dem position?

 

[ShemhazaiX]

Question for Labour supporters

Is it possible for a political party to be "too far left" for you to support them? Pretending they had a chance of winning of course.

Not really. I mean, depends what your meaning of left is. Fanatic social progressiveness (as in, "I DRINK MALE TEARS" level of "progressive") I have an issue with, and Russian style communism (Where people pretend to be bad and dumb so they don't get the shitty hard jobs) I don't think I'd support so much.

However, any party that's for social equality and wealth distribution is going to get my vote. If anything, I'm more left wing than the current Labour party by quite a lot. I believe in wealth caps and UBI.

 

[travisbickle]

Corbyn is still a Labour unionist, so he's basically a traitor to the left-wing cause to dismantle capitalism.


He's called a "looney left" because he didn't agree with globalization project, which didn't work out well for the working classes so he was right.

 

[TomWaitsForNoMan]

So you think that around 45% of the UK electorate are "rats"

Let's say hypothetically I thought someone was a rat based on their reprehensible political views, why would it matter if it was 1% or 90% of the population?

If something is morally wrong then it's morally wrong no matter how many people might believe it

 

[Maledict]

Let's say hypothetically I thought someone was a rat based on their reprehensible political views, why would it matter if it was 1% or 90% of the population?

If something is morally wrong then it's morally wrong no matter how many people might believe it

On a purely practical basis, Because the only way labour can win a majority is by convincing people who voted conservative in 2010 and 2015 to vote labour. That's pretty hard to do when your carrying signs saying 'Tory scum' and labelling their voters as evil rats.

On a moral basis, because ultimately we all have to live together, and you can guarantee there are numerous people in your life who voted for them. As someone whose own life was gratuitously harmed by their policies in the 80s, the fact is if I wrote off everyone who voted for them I'm saying half of our country is worthless. That type of partisanship is *not* healthy for the country. We only have to look at America to see how that ends up.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

I do think people need to remember the OP and refrain from attacking people for their votes. Go for the parties, their platforms and their leaders absolutely, but it crosses a line when we start attacking people who vote for those politicians. No matter how strongly we feel about things, this thread is better off for having people of all political stripes posting in - otherwise we may as well call it Labour Gaf and have it done.

You are forgetting that by his act of posting in this thread Huw is actually canvassing for votes on behalf of the party he has in the past stood as a counsellor for and represents as a member of the LDs. It's certainly within our right to challenge him in the same way we challenge other politicians and media.

 

[Maledict]

You are forgetting that by qctnof posting in this thread Huw is actually canvassing for votes on behalf of the party he has in the past stood as a counsellor for and represents as a member of the LDs. It's certainly within our right to challenge him in the same way we challenge other politicians and media.

I was more referring to the 'all Tory voters are rats' style comment. Huw's engaging with everyone here and happily inviting debate and holding his own corner. I don't think anything anyone here says could stop him talking about the lib dems... ;-)

 

[JonathanEx]

And to lighten the mood, here's our dishevelled lord of numbers, Prof John Curtis, in a long feature interview. Enjoy: https://www.holyrood.com/articles/i...hind-numbers-interview-professor-john-curtice

 

[Ghost]

Question for Labour supporters

Is it possible for a political party to be "too far left" for you to support them? Pretending they had a chance of winning of course.

I'm not a permanent labour supporter, I didn't vote for Brown, I wasn't enthusiastic about voting for Miliband but it was the best choice at the time, I am enthusiastic for Corbyn because he's not afraid to suggest big changes to the status quo, changes that lead the government doing what I think it should be doing, protecting the most vulnerable, providing services that should not be private (ie can't be run for a profit without creating a conflict of interest), and valuing the people who provide us with those services over corporate interests.

It's absolutely possible for them to go too far left for me if they are holding people back from succeeding with tax or red tape, but nothing Corbyn's proposed does that for me.

The country has gone so far right at this point that Corbyns platform doesn't even sound left wing to me, it just sounds like common sense, privatising the railways has been a disaster, student loans are a timebomb for the country, the NHS, social care & policing need real per-capita increases in funding. All that costs money, wealth inequality growth is out of control so it makes sense that the wealthy take more of the strain and it makes sense for corporation tax to be as low as possible but they've proposed a raise that's small enough to keep it competitive.

 

[PowderedToast]

Corbyn is still a Labour unionist, so he's basically a traitor to the left-wing cause to dismantle capitalism.


He's called a "looney left" because he didn't agree with globalization project, which didn't work out well for the working classes so he was right.

yup, he believes in reform through democracy, not communism

by no means is he 'hard left', although of course it's all somewhat relative depending on your company..

 

[Spuck-uk]

Holy shit really? I hadn't noticed, what with you calling people that vote Conservatives "rats" the other day/

Well, they are, so, yknow