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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding

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Spuck-uk

Spuck-uk

Banned
*Splinter said:
Question for Labour supporters

Is it possible for a political party to be "too far left" for you to support them? Pretending they had a chance of winning of course.
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Well, 'right' and 'left' are pretty imprecise terms.

If there was a far left authoritarian party proposing the likes of Maoism/Stalinism, then no, I wouldn't at all. Sorry Tankies.

As other people have said, the window of what comprises the centre of politics in the UK has been skewing further and further to the right over the last decade. What Labour are proposing in their manifesto really isn't radical left at all.
 
T

TomWaitsForNoMan

Banned
Maledict said:
On a purely practical basis, Because the only way labour can win a majority is by convincing people who voted conservative in 2010 and 2015 to vote labour. That's pretty hard to do when your carrying signs saying 'Tory scum' and labelling their voters as evil rats.

On a moral basis, because ultimately we all have to live together, and you can guarantee there are numerous people in your life who voted for them. As someone whose own life was gratuitously harmed by their policies in the 80s, the fact is if I wrote off everyone who voted for them I'm saying half of our country is worthless. That type of partisanship is *not* healthy for the country. We only have to look at America to see how that ends up.
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I mean maybe the language people use when trying to convince people is different to the language people use when venting anonymously on a message board. And tbh I can't blame people for being angry when they see the calamities that the Tories habitually inflict on people.

And as for your second point, sure there might be people in my life who've voted Tory for various reasons (not more than a few thank god), and I'd be happy to have civil discussions with them to try and convince them otherwise. But if after those discussions they continue to support policies that harm the most vulnerable people in our society then unless absolutely necessary I'd rather not be around them. It's not partisanship, it's recognising that politics can't be divorced from personal ethics, that political support is an action like any other, and that there's no obligation to maintain friendly relationships with someone who deliberately acts in a way that causes harm to innocent people.


Spuck-uk said:
Well, they are, so, yknow
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I certainly wouldn't go that far (on a board where that sort of language might bannable)


Spuck-uk said:
If there was a far left authoritarian party proposing the likes of Maoism/Stalinism, then no, I wouldn't at all. Sorry Tankies.
Click to expand...

You are forgiven (for now)
 
S

SlipperyFishes

Banned
So I got this rather targeted email from the Lib Dems about 30 mins ago

SlipperyFishes,

One of the reasons I LOVE being the Head of Members and Supporters here at the Liberal Democrats is that you constantly surprise me.

This morning, when Shaun emailed saying we were short, frankly, I was sceptical. We needed to raise a lot of money, in not a lot of time.

I’m glad to say, I was wrong. In just FIVE hours, 1,371 of you have donated and helped us raise more than £71,201 (that’s an average of £52 per person!)

But we haven’t reached our target yet – can you donate £52 (or whatever you can afford) now to help get us there?

Whatever you can donate, will make a massive difference. £3 will show online adverts to 1,000 people. £10 will pay for 500 leaflets. £52 (the average donation) will pay for a canvassing pack for a team in a key seat.

So please, we still need to raise £50,000 by this evening and £100,000 by midnight tomorrow – so please, donate now and help us close the gap.
Click to expand...

Things are not looking pretty good on the finances front there for the LDs eh?
 
C

CCS

Banned
It is possible for a party to be too far left for me, absolutely. But this Labour manifesto is not far left. Regardless of what Corbyn's personal positions are, the policies he's running on are fairly standard democratic socialist.

I would consider myself towards the centre in most regards, but I would not vote Tory. Apart from anything else, they stand opposed to the greatest and most noble project in European history: the uniting of a fracture continent wracked too often by war and devastation into a harmonious and cooperative whole; a union that one day with luck may become a federation. Europe will one day be united, a shining monument to what can be achieved when we abandon that which divides us for that which gives us common purpose in the service of humanity. The only question is whether the UK is part of that. And the Tories would drag us away from it to cower in fear and hatred and dental.
 
Randy Lanzarote

Randy Lanzarote

Member
Boris being wheeled out the broom cupboard for media duties. May on a whistle-stop tour of Labour marginals. CCHQ trying to turn the election message back to Brexit issues.

Abbott being pulled from media duties at last minute.

If I were a betting man I'd say that based on recent campaign strategies internal polling is probably showing a result closer to YouGov/Survation than ICM/ComRes.

(I still think Con majority is on, but >350 seats)


Wasn't someone collating predictions?
 
Spuck-uk

Spuck-uk

Banned
DBoh3g3WsAUQMhl.jpg


Pretty much what will happen on election day. Hope is a lie and all that.

Because of our terrible FPTP system overall vote % is worth precisely shit all.
 
G

Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
*edit* beaten

For reference that's practically identical to the last one but with 2 lib dem gains now going 1 each to Con & Lab
 
R

Roberto Larcos

Member
Mr. Sam said:
I'd genuinely love actual proportional representation but it's such a pipe dream at this stage that I wouldn't throw away my vote over it (as much as I can avoid throwing my vote away in a Tory safe seat).
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If you want change then, at some point, you're going to need to take a stand. Continuing to vote for any party that isn't interested in meaningful electoral or constitutional reform is not taking a stand. It's idealistic, but if we had more men like Huw, maybe we'd have had reform a long time ago - and God knows, more won't be convinced if even those professing to stand up for it aren't.
 
Spuck-uk

Spuck-uk

Banned
Roberto Larcos said:
If you want change then, at some point, you're going to need to take a stand. Continuing to vote for any party that isn't interested in meaningful electoral or constitutional reform is not taking a stand. It's idealistic, but if we had more men like Huw, maybe we'd have had reform a long time ago - and God knows, more won't be convinced if even those professing to stand up for it aren't.
Click to expand...

We had a referendum for an alternative voting system, public voted against it in a landslide.

In the words of Super Hans 'You can't trust people, people voted for the Nazis and listen to Coldplay'.
 
D

Dougald

Member
Considering most people here were predicting the Conservatives to be in the 400s at the start of the campaign, that would be a heck of a difference

It's still a lot of Blue though
 
Q

QuicheFontaine

Member
If that ends up as the result I think May can just about play it off as a success. Still pretty pointless to delay the Brexit negotiations by six weeks though.
 
C

crayman

Member
Very cynical opinion - but I always got the feeling that the parties that lose out from FPTP would support PR until such a time as they were benefitting from FPTP - at which point they'd lose interest in PR.
 
R

RetroDLC

Foundations of Burden
I'm going to bail on this thread until Thursday night or Friday morning, now that the polls have solidified and are near neck-to-neck within their margins of error. My wishful thinking hopes for a hung parliament with a Labour majority, then they'll probably pair up with the Lib Dems. I do expect the Conservatives to lose seats because of their pension and dementia tax naffery.

Fair well, and always take comfort in knowing the great rest known as death will come for us all equally without prejudice.
 
P

Par Score

Member
*Splinter said:
Question for Labour supporters

Is it possible for a political party to be "too far left" for you to support them? Pretending they had a chance of winning of course.
Click to expand...

No. Ideally I'd be voting for The Full Communism Party, but Labour are the only game in town.

I'm not even sure what "too far left" could be, given my ideal end goal would be strictly enforced equality of outcome for all.
 
S

ShemhazaiX

Member
RetroDLC said:
I thought they had?
Click to expand...

There's like a 12 point difference between polls. Survation and YouGov have them practically neck and neck with a Hung Parliament. Others have Labour anywhere between 5 to 12 points below the Tories.

Either way, it's doubtful Labour get a majority.
 
W

WhatNXt

Member
RetroDLC said:
Fair well, and always take comfort in knowing the great rest known as death will come for us all equally without prejudice.
Click to expand...

Fair well yourself sir.

What I would say, is that sadly, death does not come for us all equally nor without prejudice. Death comes sooner to the poor, and prejudices by post code.

If any of you are considering moving house any time soon, I recommend running the post code through this tool. It is quite honestly, eye-opening:

http://www2.cuf.org.uk/lookup-tool

Wealth inequality and life outcomes so varied are another reason this election is so so important.

Some people in more rural parts of England probably have no idea the kinds of inequality they are inflicting on people.
 
C

Cirion

Banned
From a German perspective, the UK electoral system looks to be even more dysfunctional than the US system. It combines the vast power parties achieve in parliamentary systems with the extremely voter-structure misrepresenting FTPT system of the US that results in a parliament that doesn't reflect the will of the people at all and fails at several fundamental gold standards of a functional democracy. I think there are political scientists who basically call the PM a temporary dictator - no real second chamber, most of the time no need for coalitions and compared to the US a majority in parliament that is much less likely to throw wrenches into the governments plans.
 
R

RetroDLC

Foundations of Burden
ShemhazaiX said:
There's like a 12 point difference between polls. Survation and YouGov have them practically neck and neck with a Hung Parliament. Others have Labour anywhere between 5 to 12 points below the Tories.

Either way, it's doubtful Labour get a majority.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. Anyway, I'm going to bail on thinking about this until Thursday night, my mind needs to relax. Have fun.
 
Spuck-uk

Spuck-uk

Banned
Cirion said:
From a German perspective, the UK electoral system looks to be even more dysfunctional than the US system. It combines the vast power parties achieve in parliamentary systems with the extremely voter-structure misrepresenting FTPT system of the US that results in a parliament that doesn't reflect the will of the people at all and fails at several fundamental gold standards of a functional democracy. I think there are political scientists who basically call the PM a temporary dictator - no real second chamber, most of the time no need for coalitions and compared to the US a majority in parliament that is much less likely to throw wrenches into the governments plans.
Click to expand...

That sounds about right.
 
M

Mr. Sam

Member
Cirion said:
From a German perspective, the UK electoral system looks to be even more dysfunctional than the US system. It combines the vast power parties achieve in parliamentary systems with the extremely voter-structure misrepresenting FTPT system of the US that results in a parliament that doesn't reflect the will of the people at all and fails at several fundamental gold standards of a functional democracy. I think there are political scientists who basically call the PM a temporary dictator - no real second chamber, most of the time no need for coalitions and compared to the US a majority in parliament that is much less likely to throw wrenches into the governments plans.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's awful. Unfortunately, the governing party is always going to quite like that it only had to win about a third of the national vote to hold outright power, so it's a bit of a catch 22.
 
W

WhatNXt

Member
Cirion said:
From a German perspective, the UK electoral system looks to be even more dysfunctional than the US system. It combines the vast power parties achieve in parliamentary systems with the extremely voter-structure misrepresenting FTPT system of the US that results in a parliament that doesn't reflect the will of the people at all and fails at several fundamental gold standards of a functional democracy. I think there are political scientists who basically call the PM a temporary dictator - no real second chamber, most of the time no need for coalitions and compared to the US a majority in parliament that is much less likely to throw wrenches into the governments plans.
Click to expand...

The Conservatives want to introduce First Past the Post for the Mayoral elections and Police Crime Commissioners too. Obviously don't like the way STV has elected plenty of progressive mayors and commissioners.

They don't like the internet, they don't like free speech and they don't like voter representative systems.
 
G

Guerrillas in the Mist

Member
Cirion said:
From a German perspective, the UK electoral system looks to be even more dysfunctional than the US system. It combines the vast power parties achieve in parliamentary systems with the extremely voter-structure misrepresenting FTPT system of the US that results in a parliament that doesn't reflect the will of the people at all and fails at several fundamental gold standards of a functional democracy. I think there are political scientists who basically call the PM a temporary dictator - no real second chamber, most of the time no need for coalitions and compared to the US a majority in parliament that is much less likely to throw wrenches into the governments plans.
Click to expand...

You've hit the nail on the head there - neither of the two major parties are interested in serious parliamentary reform naturally, so nothing will realistically change, either.
 
W

WhatNXt

Member
Meadows said:
Scottish independence voting intention:

Yes: 38% (-1)
No: 50% (+1)

(via @YouGov / 01 - 05 Jun)
Click to expand...

This is meaningless when Sturgeon has no intention of having a referendum right now anyway. A poll when we've got more detail on the Brexit deal would be interesting!
 
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