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UK PoliGAF: General election thread of LibCon Coalitionage

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Empty

Member
Piece in the Guardian by an ex-Sun editor talking about how they treat the Lib Dems is quite interesting as well as giving yet another reason to want the lib dems to win.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/apr/18/clegg-media-elite-murdoch-lib-dem

Ghost said:
I think the nation wants a hung parliament, everyone I talk to has a morbid curiosity about what it would mean.

Some people talk about the 1974 hung parliament and the lack of stability there like one now will prove the same thing, leading to chaos when we need a strong response to deal with our economy, but i'm not sure if that's true. I mean the Labour and the Liberal parties were much further apart then than the two parties are now, the latter being into free market reforms and the former wanting to move towards further nationalisation of the economy, whereas economically the main differences now are in how best to manage a center-right market based economic philosophy in the interests of the people. Another problem was that the Liberals had very few seats back then, whereas now they are by far the biggest third party and can support a coalition properly. I'm personally quite excited, even outside of my strong wish to see the lib dems gain some influence in the running of the country, just to see the government represent more of the electorate and be forced to compromise and not just satisfy it's base and a few targeted people living in marginals.
 

Omikaru

Member
GhaleonQ said:
As an American conservative, I know I should be horrified by any Liberal Democrat power gains even if the Tories do nothing for me, but this is going to be too hilarious and riveting to care. Question, though: what electoral "strategies" that haven't been used yet could significantly shift the current polls? Every party's get-out-the-vote system is equally strong, right, and there's no time for big policy shifts? Is everyone just waiting to see whether Clegg's bump is temporary and what that means for the Conservatives? I know campaign rules are different from ours, but not how.
Well so far the big two parties have dabbled in a number of things to try and dampen voters' views about the LibDems, but none of it is working.

Tory bloggers, fed information by various spin doctors in the party, have tried to smear Clegg about when he did an internship at a lobbyist firm about eighteen years ago who had links to Colonel Gaddafi. It hasn't worked.

In the debate Cameron tried to infer that the LibDems took dodgy donations from a "criminal on the run", but the party had been completely exonerated for it many months ago. That one failed.

Right wing media have tried to attack Clegg personally on his nationality. Yes, he's British, but he's of mixed heritage and some people have chosen to highlight that he's only "one quarter" British in blood. As Dale points out, personal attacks on Clegg are misguided:

Personal attacks on Nick Clegg will not work. They will backfire on those who make them and rightly so. Everyone who knows Nick Clegg likes him. He's a transparently likeable individual. Anyone trying to make out that he's anything else will come a cropper.

Since the smearing failed, Cameron has tried to lovebomb Liberal voters by saying the Tories are the true progressives who want change, but that hasn't washed with a predominantly social democratic electorate, either. The most recent Tory tactic is to fearmonger and say that a vote for the LibDems will get Brown back into office. The sad fact is, Labour are saying the reverse and it makes them look more similar than different.

Labour have tried similar tactics, but have a tougher time "shooting down" LibDem policy because they don't want to alienate their core vote. Remember that the LibDems and Labour "share" a common progressive strand, and both parties are trying to woo traditionally left wing voters into believeing that their brand of progressiveness is the right way. Labour will have a hard time attacking the LibDems out of fear for alienating their own, so they've tried wooing them and discussing their policies, and the scaremongering too. They won't smear them, though, because that's risky business. The sad thing for Labour is that the more they discuss LibDem policy, the more attractive it becomes, so the new tactic is to just ignore them, which will fail just as badly since we have another two TV debates left.

I think another reason the Tories are more aggressive in their attacks on the LibDems is because they know that if a LibDem government or coalition is formed, the game is up. They will push through a progressive, proportional voting system which will keep the Tories out of office without a coalition for a very, very long time. In a proportional system, Labour's strongest supporters are very tribal, so it's likely they'll always get a sizable proportion of the vote. The Tories have been lucky that their core constituencies are shaped the way they are, otherwise they'd have potentially far fewer people in office if things were more proportional.

Neither of the parties can really attack LibDem policy because, unlike the Liberals, the others are in an unenviable position of having a manifesto that promises things that haven't been costed (or, at least, they won't reveal where the costs are). The funding for Tories' proposed National Insurance cut has been plucked from thin air, and everyone knows it'll lead to a rise in VAT (a tax loathed almost as much as Council Tax) which will hit the poorer people most.

Trying to stick to your question, though, short of some national paedophile scandal, it's too late to stem a lot of the LibDems' popular surge. The cat is out of the bag, and the only person who can destroy the LibDems' lead right now, knowing what we know, is Nick Clegg himself. Of course I'm not a party strategist, so I'm sure the spin doctors in both parties are conjouring up a way of trying to battle the LibDems. Whether it'll work or not, I honestly don't know.

The biggest test is this week, though. If the LibDems can maintain their current share of the polls, or grow them, up until the next debate, which is the same length of time between the final TV debate and the election day, then the two big parties have a lot to fear. It shows that the LibDem surge isn't just a blip and that if they play their cards right, they could ride the popularity wave unhindered until May 6th. Even worse, if they can survive unhindered until the next debate, there's also fear from the other parties that support will snowball week on week.

The Tories would be in trouble because 25 of the 100 or so seats they need to take a majority in Government are LibDem marginals, and Labour because, whilst they have less to fear from a seats perspective (Labour can hold the majority of seats on such a small number of votes), there will be a national scandal bigger than MPs expenses if Labour "win" with the smallest vote share out of the big three.

Right now talk is on a hung parliament, so all isn't lost for Labour and they're banking on things staying this way and shoeing Gordon back in as a minority PM who will govern on a policy-by-policy basis. As far as the Tories are concerned, if they can't put the LibDems back "in their place" in the 19-20% poll share, Cameron won't be PM. Conservatives have a reason to be disheartened and aghast right now. All that Lord Ashcroft money, slick PR and advertising since 2005 has been undone in one night of debating.
 

Enosh

Member
RustyNails said:
So I guess you've never heard of Latin and Mexican (legal as well as illegal) immigrants with low education in US...
ofcourse I have

but those are mostly catholics and have a very similar culture to the one the US has with similar values

the culture clash isn't half as strong as betwen a western country vs fundamentalist muslims
 

NekoFever

Member
Even if a vote for the Lib Dems is a vote for Labour, a vote for the Tories is a vote for the Tories, which is enough for me.
 

Chinner

Banned
Good post. More effort will probably put into the TV debates seeing how influential they are, and it'll be interesting to see how the Tories and Labour balance out attacking each other with attacking the Lib Dems.

I wonder how Murdoch is feeling about these polls?
 

Empty

Member
Chinner said:
Good post. More effort will probably put into the TV debates seeing how influential they are, and it'll be interesting to see how the Tories and Labour balance out attacking each other with attacking the Lib Dems.

I wonder how Murdoch is feeling about these polls?

Given that Sky News was the driving force behind organising the television election debates, with them actively campaigning for one to take place - rather annoyed, i'd imagine.
 

SmokyDave

Member
Good to see the poll figures. Hopefully this 2 horse race will become a 3 horse race that will become real parliamentary reform. Or Conservatives will win the election and everyone will go into a post election slump upon realising that change ain't gonna happen.

ghst said:
i heard that in New York City you even have trains that go underground.
Oh man, thanks for the laugh indeed :lol
 

Empty

Member
Omikaru said:

I think they misunderstand the nature of criticism against Cameron with that attack. People point to Cameron's hugely privileged upbringing because they see it as a cause of him being out of touch with the electorate, as manifested in his policies and personality, and because he is a Tory who many in this country consider to predominately work in the interests of the wealthy. Clegg doesn't have those problems, his "honest" and generally likeable personality combined with his policies mean his upbringing isn't relevant to most people.
 

Cindres

Vied for a tag related to cocks, so here it is.
Oh thank god we're out of the economy discussion.

I'm just worried now that both Cameron and Brown are gonna gang up on Nick big time on Thursday. However this is probably good as it will show us what Clegg's like under pressure and show his true colours.
 

Chinner

Banned
Cindres said:
Oh thank god we're out of the economy discussion.

I'm just worried now that both Cameron and Brown are gonna gang up on Nick big time on Thursday. However this is probably good as it will show us what Clegg's like under pressure and show his true colours.
Don't you worry, the economy discussion will be back next week along with the debate.

Brown and Cameron aint gonna gang up on Clegg; they might be more aggressive, but they're still going to be concentrating on attacking each other mainly.
 

Empty

Member
Cindres said:
Oh thank god we're out of the economy discussion.

I'm just worried now that both Cameron and Brown are gonna gang up on Nick big time on Thursday. However this is probably good as it will show us what Clegg's like under pressure and show his true colours.

I think that is likely. However it is very easy for Clegg to fight back given the topic of the next debate.

• A poll for ComRes says 77% of voters want British troops withdrawn from Afghanistan. The Lib Dems are the most critical of this campaign, and can exploit that for support.
• The unpopular Iraq war still looms over people's minds. This is big for LD credibility on international relations.
• Though they lose on Europe, so do the Tories and Labour (lisbon treaty), and europe isn't really considered a major issue by the overall electorate.

Besides, Labour can't be too critical given they can only get into power on a hung parliament and by using right wing arguments against the lib dems, they risk alienating their left wing base. Plus both parties just emphasise the likable "outsider" element to Clegg, which he is thriving on, if they both go on the attack.
 

sohois

Member
I can see Clegg losing out in the next debate regardless of his performance, for the simple fact that it is on Sky News. Now, I'm not saying that they're going to try and trip up Clegg deliberately furing the debate, but rather that because of the likely much smaller viewership for the debate, many people are going to not watch it and instead decide based upon media coverage on the next day. Given that most outlets have tended to be anti-libdem so far, I'd say there's potential for a drop in support. So even if Murdoch can't directly influence the debate itself, he can influence its outcome.
 
The sad thing for the Tories is that they're maintaining this attack on the LDs that they'll let Brown back in with the smallest vote. Now there's at least two things wrong with that argument:

1. Most progressive voters, especially in the North will just answer "yeah, but as long as it's anyone but you mate!"

2. If such a thing happened and Brown claimed the Premiership, I'd be quite happy to go to the streets of Westminister and protest/riot. And I believe (if the Iraq protests were any example) that many other Britons would be prepared to go too, I also believe that deep down, both Labour and the LDs know this but don't want to say anything for fear of alienating someone or presuming to call the election result before it's happened. How do other people here feel though? IF Brown or Cameron became PM (more likely Brown in this scenario) and their party had the most seats despite being 3rd in the national vote, would you go down and protest? I bloody would! Call for electoral reform and then prompt dissolution of Parliament for another election.
 
Why are so many people considering voting for the Lib Dems, looking at the manifesto it is economically to the right of Labour, it seems to have as much costing done as the Tories, & they are also promising tax cuts as soon as possible.
 

Linkified

Member
Dark Machine said:
The sad thing for the Tories is that they're maintaining this attack on the LDs that they'll let Brown back in with the smallest vote. Now there's at least two things wrong with that argument:

1. Most progressive voters, especially in the North will just answer "yeah, but as long as it's anyone but you mate!"

2. If such a thing happened and Brown claimed the Premiership, I'd be quite happy to go to the streets of Westminister and protest/riot. And I believe (if the Iraq protests were any example) that many other Britons would be prepared to go too, I also believe that deep down, both Labour and the LDs know this but don't want to say anything for fear of alienating someone or presuming to call the election result before it's happened. How do other people here feel though? IF Brown or Cameron became PM (more likely Brown in this scenario) and their party had the most seats despite being 3rd in the national vote, would you go down and protest? I bloody would! Call for electoral reform and then prompt dissolution of Parliament for another election.
So here in the north who do you think we will vote for.
 

Omikaru

Member
The Beeb are reporting on their live feed that Clegg is being heckled in Swansea.

Nick Clegg has been repeatedly heckled on a visit to Swansea. "What about the unions? Answer the question," a local teacher shouted again and again during his speech, the BBC's Mike Sergeant says. The Lib Dem leader shouted back: "I am answering the question. Labour have had 13 years. Give someone else a chance to be heard."

He's really in a Labour heartland there.

Linkified said:
So here in the north who do you think we will vote for.
Probably Labour. Probably. Most definitely not Tory. Thatcher is still the devil in the north.
 

Empty

Member
Cerebral Assassin said:
Why are so many people considering voting for the Lib Dems, looking at the manifesto it is economically to the right of Labour, it seems to have as much costing done as the Tories, & they are also promising tax cuts as soon as possible.

The Lib Dem tax cuts are focused at the poorest (they unfortunately go too far up the income scale, though), reward those at the bottom who work hard but get small incomes, and encourage social mobility. It is costed and balanced near fully by tax raises, such as an increase to a capital gains tax that allows the wealthiest to pay less tax on income than those who earn average incomes, a mansion tax that is unavoidable and asks those who benefit most from our economy to give a little more back given how unequal our society is and more closing of loopholes (the amount here is over-valued by the LD's according to the IFS, but it is mostly balanced by them undervaluing gains through mansion and capital gains rises and aiming to raise more than their tax cut costs). I wouldn't think of them in the same way as the sort of tax cuts proposed by the right, which are in line with trickle down economics, they are the opposite for the most case.
 
Linkified said:
So here in the north who do you think we will vote for.

Under the currently broken system nearly every seat is Labour, tribal hatred of Thatcher runs deep in the cities especially. Most of Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds and Newcastle is all red. I think Wirral was Blue in 05, but they've always been a bit posh over there :p and Sheffield Hallam was Clegg's constituency, but otherwise it's mostly red.
 
Empty said:
The Lib Dem tax cuts are focused at the poorest (they unfortunately go too far up the income scale, though), reward those at the bottom who work hard but get small incomes, and encourage social mobility. It is costed and balanced near fully by tax raises, such as an increase to a capital gains tax that allows the wealthiest to pay less tax on income than those who earn average incomes, a mansion tax that is unavoidable and asks those who benefit most from our economy to give a little more back given how unequal our society is and more closing of loopholes (the amount here is over-valued by the LD's according to the IFS, but it is mostly balanced by them undervaluing gains through mansion and capital gains rises and aiming to raise more than their tax cut costs). I wouldn't think of them in the same way as the sort of tax cuts proposed by the right, which are in line with trickle down economics, they are the opposite for the most case.

I see no reason to trust the Lib Dems assumptions if this was a Tory or a Labour policy the 4.5 Billion savings claim from tax evasion would be laughed at. Also what type of Tax cuts they think the will be able to offer in 2011/2 have not been announced. I can't see any mention of how they will pay to restore the link between earnings and the state pension, their insistance on "local" superiority over central government(sound like another party, no) & the fact that Clegg was a big supporter of the Orange Book, leads me to believe that if there is a hung parliament, Clegg will more often than not vote with the Tories.
 
BBC Live Feed said:
1313:
A Labour candidate has defended a leaflet distributed on his behalf which uses images of convicted paedophile Vanessa George and the mother of Baby Peter, Tracey Connolly. It reads: "Do you want convicted Murderers Rapists and Paedophiles to be given the vote? The Lib Dems do". But Roger Godsiff, standing in Birmingham Hall Green, told the BBC: "I agree that the imagery on is strong, but I do not accept that it is any stronger that anything that has been put out by my opponents."

I honestly didn't think Labour would go that low...Also Kudos on Clegg shouting back at the heckler. The man has a right to be heard, no matter what corrupt unions, (and they ARE corrupt, my mum works for one, she's voting LD too) Ashcroft or Murdoch might want.
 
Dark Machine said:
I honestly didn't think Labour would go that low...Also Kudos on Clegg shouting back at the heckler. The man has a right to be heard, no matter what corrupt unions, (and they ARE corrupt, my mum works for one, she's voting LD too) Ashcroft or Murdoch might want.


Does your mum work for all the Unions or are you just simple?
 
Cerebral Assassin said:
I see no reason to trust the Lib Dems assumptions if this was a Tory or a Labour policy the 4.5 Billion savings claim from tax evasion would be laughed at. Also what type of Tax cuts they think the will be able to offer in 2011/2 have not been announced. I can't see any mention of how they will pay to restore the link between earnings and the state pension, their insistance on "local" superiority over central government(sound like another party, no) & the fact that Clegg was a big supporter of the Orange Book, leads me to believe that if there is a hung parliament, Clegg will more often than not vote with the Tories.

Wait, they're offering you no tax an the first 10 grand you earn as long as they're in power and you want MORE? With the debt we have?

The 4.5 billion in savings is just 10% of the avoidance that occurs currently? Over 5 years they could well get close to that at least, are you saying that aiming for 10% clean up of tax evasion over a parliament is unreasonable? Clegg was worried it wouldn't be far enough.

And on the local thing, no, they're saying that localising certain things down to councils or locally elected bodies makes them better because layers of state bureaucracy are cut out, saving time and money. The Tories are saying "We've got no cash, we've got no answers, do it yourselves!"

Cerebral Assassin said:
Does your mum work for all the Unions or are you just simple?

Actually no lad, she works for one of the biggest in the country. And it is ineffective and corrupt from her experience.

I also choose to ignore your vulgar insult so as not to degenerate the thread and the debate.

On a further note, I see no reason to trust the Labour party (and I was a big supporter like most of my family) when New Labour was recently said to be Thatcher's "greatest achievement" by the woman herself. They've followed Thatcher-lite economics and even applied the market economy to social policy just as she did, they've 'improved' the NHS by throwing billions upon billions at it and hiring tons of managers to push paper and they've succeeded in ruining the school system by keeping the market in that and putting the good old 'death by paper' bureaucracy which makes teachers unable to effectively punish pupils for misbehaviour, does not hold bad parents to account and gives them very little control over their lives. The best thing Labour ever did? Minimum Wage, which the LDs supported. I've had enough of Labour.
 
Dark Machine said:
Wait, they're offering you no tax an the first 10 grand you earn as long as they're in power and you want MORE? With the debt we have?

Sorry it was a typo, I meant the cuts in Spending(not tax) from 2011/2 that are mentioned in the manifesto but not allocated.
Actually no lad, she works for one of the biggest in the country. And it is ineffective and corrupt from her experience.

I also choose to ignore your vulgar insult so as not to degenerate the thread and the debate.

it wasn't a insult, it was a simple question, unions have done a lot for the "common man" in this country, and to denigrate all of the on the basis of anecdotal evidence is inn my opinion a simplistic view on life
 

Linkified

Member
Dark Machine said:
Under the currently broken system nearly every seat is Labour, tribal hatred of Thatcher runs deep in the cities especially. Most of Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds and Newcastle is all red. I think Wirral was Blue in 05, but they've always been a bit posh over there :p and Sheffield Hallam was Clegg's constituency, but otherwise it's mostly red.
Well here in Newcastle we have a lib dem council and I have seen so many people not wanting lib dem after we had them for the council.

I reckon most labour voters won't vote most lib dem thinking they are safe and not voting well that's how I see things affecting Newcastle north.
 
Cerebral Assassin said:
Sorry it was a typo, I meant the cuts in Spending(not tax) from 2011/2 that are mentioned in the manifesto but not allocated.


it wasn't a insult, it was a simple question, unions have done a lot for the "common man" in this country, and to denigrate all of the on the basis of anecdotal evidence is inn my opinion a simplistic view on life

Cuts in spending that far ahead could be announced this year...but then they'd be changed depending on what actually happens this year, we never really know what's 'supposed' to happen until the budget, apart from this year because its an election.

And yes Unions have done a lot for the "common man". That doesn't mean that they're doing a lot for the "common man" right now. I'm just calling what I see.
 

Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
Im watching the politics show, they are doing foriegn policy with all the relevant ministers, Lib Dem guy just basically said no Euro soon, and no Euro ever without a referendum (so no Euro ever)
 
Dark Machine said:
And yes Unions have done a lot for the "common man". That doesn't mean that they're doing a lot for the "common man" right now. I'm just calling what I see.


And I'm not saying Unions don't suffer from corruption, but unions do a lot of good work down on a individual level.
 

Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
wow if the actual foreign policy debate is anything like this Clegg is going to be tested to the max, every question is going straight to the Lib Dems.


Milliband is trying to say Cameron wants war with China, :lol
 

Chinner

Banned
Ghost said:
wow if the actual foreign policy debate is anything like this Clegg is going to be tested to the max, every question is going straight to the Lib Dems.
It won't be. The journalists in the foreign policy debate are acting as both the moderators question makers. In the proper debates the questions are by the audience with the journalists acting purely as moderators and making sure the time is allocated correctly.

Still, I'm not feeling so positive about this upcoming debate.
 

Sage00

Once And Future Member
Cerebral Assassin said:
And I'm not saying Unions don't suffer from corruption, but unions do a lot of good work down on a individual level.
If you're the individual in favour. Otherwise, the unions will cost you your job (if you're a union outsider or non-member), they will cost the company, and in the mid-term those who got their wage rise will probably not even benefit.

Unions these days, for the most part, are do no good for anyone with their wage bargaining. Just look at BA. However, it is good to have them around for issues like working conditions/hours and to pressure against unnecessary redundancies. Unions have a place, but all too often they overstep their boundaries.
 

Wes

venison crêpe
Sounds like Clegg had a bad morning:

Normally relaxed, affable and on top of his brief, this morning he's struggled to crack a smile. At the regular morning press conference, he lost his thread talking about the party's railway plans - this remember, the subject of a Lib Dem announcement made with much fanfare the day before the campaign kicked off.

Things got worse when he headed to Cardiff University for a Q&A with students.

"Can't hear you - say it again," he barked at one unfortunate questioner. "Bilge," he grumbled when another student wanted to know about his links with a lobbying firm that later worked for Colonel Gaddafi. And later: "I'm a human being, not a walking encyclopedia." Even those closest to him acknowledged this was not a man on top of his game.
 
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