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UK PoliGAF: General election thread of LibCon Coalitionage
- Thread starter Chinner
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J Tourettes
Banned
:lolSmokyDave said:
I was thinking more along the lines of a few pints of beer.
Dark Machine
Member
J Tourettes said:
So like he said mate...tax. Petrol? Tax. You could also pay the VAT on a game with that too!
J Tourettes
Banned
Dark Machine said:So like he said mate...tax. Petrol? Tax. You could also pay the VAT on a game with that too!
I don't drive and I don't seem to be playing any (video) games much recently. So beer it is.
Dabookerman
Member
Wes said:
Oh well, we had a good run.
Cerebral Assassin said:
I don't think it is particular credible either, what i do think, as backed up by the IFS report into the LD manifesto, is that it isn't a major hole as the other taxes' revenues are under-valued and they are looking to bring in £2.4 billion more than they are giving out in their tax cut.
The promise to restore the link between pensions and earnings, a promise that is on both the Tory and Labour manifesto's, is backed up by the same costing that Labour and the Tories' promises are which is out of general government funds. Then as for your idea about local government, i'm not sure what's wrong with reducing the amount of central power we have in this country, stuff like devolution has been at benefit to the country, we have an electoral system that rewards safe seats and lazy local politics, and unlike the Tories it isn't a smokescreen for privatization or running down of public services, just an acknowledgment that local government can work better for local areas than central government can.
The Orange Book is the largest concern i have with the Lib Dems, but both Cable and their manifesto have come out with some quite progressive economic polices. I don't think they are the same as the Tories as they support delaying cutting public services till next year to help the recovery, their initial cuts though large are realistic and focus on obvious waste like trident, ID cards, NHS managers and bloated public sector pensions, their tax cuts reward the poor rather than the wealthy, they re-balance the burden of taxation greater on the rich, want to re-regulate the banking system most and they are philosophically left of centre from what i can see.
travisbickle
Member
Linkified said:
If you don't want to be called a racist, don't say there are facts and figures that back up right wing parties facist views.
Such bullshit. I wouldn't mind if Bragg and Mob had torn him apart legitimately but it went like this...Chinner said:
Why can't people just tear them apart properly? I'm convinced that two or three decent GAFfers and a 10 minute TV debate could destroy the BNPs credibility, why do their mainstream opponents struggle to do so while keeping their dignity?
I think he was referring to the fact that BNP guy offered to produce figures to back up his assertion but was then shouted down and ignored because he doesn't know the name of Billy Braggs mums house.jas0nuk said:
That was an incredibly boring Party Political Broadcast.Dabookerman said:
Does Dave plan to sell the nation on his "Big Society" using that?
Edit: Whoops, I thought you were talking about this. :lol
Aaanyway, in other news: One of the two old parties is (possibly) using leading questions.:lol
Surely you appreciate that all of the legitimate parties in our democratic process have the right to be heard and treated equally?Salazar said:
If the BNP promote views which are odious (unnecessary 'if', I know), then letting the public hear, challenge and reject these views is not going to be a problem.
I personally don't want Labour receiving the oxygen of publicity but I accept that it's only fair that they do.
brain_stew
Member
SmokyDave said:
Then what are we doing talking about the BNP?
travisbickle
Member
jas0nuk said:
I thought he meant noone disputes the figures, they just shout at them for being the BNP.
And the reason they don't dispute the facts and figures is because the "figures" and the "facts" bear no relevance to reality or to each other, and you're a racist if you think increased numbers of immigrants (taken as a figure) vindicate them for any other fact or figure you proceed to state.
Here's a little test:
Since 2004 10,000 polish migrants have moved to the West Coast.
Since 2004 house prices have dropped an average of 3% each year.
Since 2004 unemployment has increased by 7%.
What or who is to blame over this period?
brain_stew said:
A legitimiate political party is any party that stands at an election it is wholly undemocratic to exclude anyone not to form a party. Such as Greens, Conservative, Labour, UKIP, Lib Dems, BNP, Christian Party, etc.
It doesn't matter which party it is but true political discussion is about a party putting its 'facts' and other parties proving and disproving these 'facts' with figures and educated responses to show their party is a mature one. Not just shout at another party and then complain wheres your facts.
This statement goes to everyone but people who want Democracy have to take the extremes as well as the center parties.
Dark Machine
Member
So each party leader has their own answer to the current flights crisis and getting people across the channel:
David Cameron: "If you need to get across the channel, then you simply need to come together as a community and buy your own cruise liner or ferry, and run it yourselves!"
Gordon Brown: "I'd like to point out that volcanic eruptions in iceland increased 28% under the previous Tory government!"
And according to the most recent polls; Nick Clegg will simply walk across the channel to rescue people, turning, parting the sea and guiding the people out of the Bondage of Gare du Nord. He will of course stop on his way home to save a small kitten stuck up a tree too.
David Cameron: "If you need to get across the channel, then you simply need to come together as a community and buy your own cruise liner or ferry, and run it yourselves!"
Gordon Brown: "I'd like to point out that volcanic eruptions in iceland increased 28% under the previous Tory government!"
And according to the most recent polls; Nick Clegg will simply walk across the channel to rescue people, turning, parting the sea and guiding the people out of the Bondage of Gare du Nord. He will of course stop on his way home to save a small kitten stuck up a tree too.
scarybore
Member
Yeah, sadly it degenerates into a mob style lynching pretty fast rather than using some solid arguments to make their case. As SmokyDave says, it's rare to see the BNP attacked in a dignified, intelligent manner but I guess it can be hard to be composed and rational when confronted with such imbeciles.
jas0nuk said:
There better be a quiz.
Dark Machine
Member
Empty said:
I think I said it earlier, but in the latest Tony Benn Diaries he describes being asked by Andrew Neil to come on his show. Neil is overwhelmingly Tory most of the time, and a big Tory supporter in private.
travisbickle
Member
Linkified said:
Don't you understand, there are no facts that legitamise the policies of the BNP!!
They are a right wing party that discriminates towards ethnic minorities.
So a BNP member tells me immigration has increased by a percentage over the last 10 years, why would it matter? unless you want to put the blame of all of society's problems on immigrants, why should we have to listen?
travisbickle said:
I want their figures and I want the figures to disprove his point by other parties. The point of a democratic system is the voices of every sector of scoiety is taken into account with policies. Ignoreing even a small percentage of the electorate is destroying the very core principles of democracy.
For instance in an alternative Earth we switch the roles of BNP and the Green Party where the Green Party is looked at the crazy party. Would your principles over how our democratic state should be run. And we have to listen becuase that is the democratic process you take the rough with the smooth.
Linkified said:
You really are flattering the BNP with comparisons to real political parties.
The BNP are single-issue racists masquerading as a political party to spread their message. Their policies are no more deserving of discussion than the Monster Raving Loony party, and in the same way do not need to be addressed on an issue-by-issue basis by the other parties because to do so legitimises them and raises their profile.
They can make all the points they want to make in a democracy, that doesn't mean other people have to give them the oxygen of publicity. They are equally free to ignore and dismiss them.
The growth of the BNP is a failure of the other parties to tackle sensitive issues like immigration. From ignorance of a subject comes kneejerk responses. Addressing the underlying problem can be done without addressing the BNP itself, and when the problem is tackled (as is finally happening) the BNP no longer have that card to play to further their own very unpleasant agenda.
Dark Machine
Member
Hey guys, come on, I know we're all a bit sensitive to the BNP. Hell I was ashamed when one got in as a North West MEP being from that area. But Linkified is correct. The BNP, however much we might despise and detest them (like the bad boil on the foot of society in my opinion) but they do have a right to be heard, and as I think Deck'ard means in his post, we have to argue them down by exposing their logical fallacies and empty rhetoric, I actually liked it when they were on Question Time, because Nick Griffin was cleanly and thoroughly disposed of by the other politicians and the audience. We have to educate those tempted to vote for the BNP by their own ignorance and dissatisfaction.
The media I feel must take some responsibility for this phenomenon, they are the ones spinning the headlines every day about "THEY TOOK OUR JERBS!" or "Darkies do drugs on benefit!" or "Hardworking brits undercut by Poles!" (Notice that there's no mention that the Poles are also hardworking and that unskilled workers are now prohibited even more due to the points based system.
The media I feel must take some responsibility for this phenomenon, they are the ones spinning the headlines every day about "THEY TOOK OUR JERBS!" or "Darkies do drugs on benefit!" or "Hardworking brits undercut by Poles!" (Notice that there's no mention that the Poles are also hardworking and that unskilled workers are now prohibited even more due to the points based system.
DECK'ARD said:
I'm not saying if the BNP is right or wrong with their views but simply ignoring or worse yet not involving them in the democratic process is a just plain silly. We need to involve all parties in the democratic process. Otherwise we are no better than the countries we preach about the wonders of democracy to.
Linkified said:
Suggest ideas. I agree that in a fair democracy, the BNP has a right to exist. But surely, you are overexagerating a need to stretch out a hand.
I'll repeat that we cannot and should not legally stop them from standing based on ideology, just like letting the Monster Raving Party stand, or Nick Griffin being on Question Time.
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/election_2010/scotland/8630217.stm
The Scottish Conservatives started their campaign in Melrose, a town that's about 2 miles from my house. Melrose is pretty much Tory territory in that it's a bunch of old white rich people and farmers that live there but it's pretty obvious they're firmly targeting my constituency.
The Conservatives only have one seat in Scotland right now (Dumfries, I am disappoint) and I swear to god if they unseat Michael Moore as my MP then two things will happen. 1) I won't be living there until the Tory is unseated. 2) David Steel will drop fucking dead on the spot just so he can spin in his grave.
The Scottish Conservatives started their campaign in Melrose, a town that's about 2 miles from my house. Melrose is pretty much Tory territory in that it's a bunch of old white rich people and farmers that live there but it's pretty obvious they're firmly targeting my constituency.
The Conservatives only have one seat in Scotland right now (Dumfries, I am disappoint) and I swear to god if they unseat Michael Moore as my MP then two things will happen. 1) I won't be living there until the Tory is unseated. 2) David Steel will drop fucking dead on the spot just so he can spin in his grave.
SmokyDave said:
I thought it was also amusing that Nick Griffin was basically run out of Westminster while giving a speech to the press by the "Coalition against fascism", not only that, but the ultimate irony is that they said "The BNP shouldn't be entitled to free speech".
I mean talk about going against your principles.
Seems some people act like mad bulls when they see the BNP, but that doesn't mean we should let these people disrupt a parties political speech to the press, regardless of how distasteful the party in question policies are.
killer_clank
Member
Heh, my constituency is on the BBC news channel, with a pretty crappy debate. :lol
Students have the right to stand outside BNP meetings and shout/ridicule them all they want in a fair, free, democratic society. The only reason organisations like the KKK saw their membership reduced was because people managed to find out where the meetings were, line up outside and so members were embarrassed to go in, because their personal views would be exposed to the wider population. Rather than, say, hiding away from everyone in a darkened room plotting their next move to get rid of the blacks. Is that not democracy?SmokyDave said:
killer_clank
Member
The SNP manifesto is here for anyone interested:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/20_04_10_snpmanifesto.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/20_04_10_snpmanifesto.pdf
Nexus Zero
Member
Salazar said:
Fascism is fun.
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