• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

UK PoliGAF |OT2| - We Blue Ourselves

Status
Not open for further replies.

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/624105789477752833

Here's why "what labour party membership want" won't win any elections.

Why people think Labour lost /= why voters did not vote for Labour. There may be a correlation but there is an important distinction.

Labour's biggest problem is that their party political machine is not good enough. I'm not suggesting that this was the reason they lost but that it is the biggest problem facing them now. The Tories ran a very strong and focused campaign with Messina/Crosby/Osborne. They had a clear message that they could be trusted to deliver that was cohesive to their party/personal image and a clear means to communicating that. Labour had some very popular ideas but were all over the place and could not be trusted.

It is part of why I think that complaining about Corbyn's electability is a red herring to shift Labour rightwards. He isn't a crazy radical. The real problem is that Labour aren't trusted. Which is a valid criticism. New Labour eroded a great deal of trust and actually I think Ed's biggest quality was that he is actually a decent guy.
 

tomtom94

Member
Labour had some very popular ideas but were all over the place and could not be trusted.

Yeah, this. It essentially came down to people at debates asking Miliband "How can we trust you when you fucked up the country?" versus people asking Cameron "Where are you going to find the welfare cuts from?". It was easier for the Tories to present themselves as the party of working people than it was Labour to present themselves as fiscally responsible... especially when the only people who read Labour's manifesto were the base.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
I'm normally a fan of Sunny Hundal, but in this piece, he manages to say very little of substance while attacking the only person who has actually has a clear agenda about what the Labour party would look like under his leadership, that is, Corbyn.

Meanwhile, Gerry Hassan has written an excellent but depressing article on the future of the Labour Party.

Very difficult not to think that left-wing politics is dead for very, very long time in the UK. Perhaps forever.
 
It's hard to know exactly what happened when they talk - presumably due to legal reasons - in such abstractions:

"At that time the agencies didn't respond in a way that we wanted, that we expected them to, although some actions were taken by the local authority so we escalated those actions further.
"But insufficient action was taken as far as we were concerned."

What did they tell the "agencies"? What actions were taken? Was one of those agencies the police?
 

Hellers

Member
Private Eye this fortnight is very good, critiquing the Budget, calling out issues on both sides of the BBC debate, couple of good jokes about the Labour leadership run, and they stick the boot into Dacre, Desmond and Murdoch nicely.

I love Private Eye but it also makes me angry and depressed.
 

Polari

Member
https://twitter.com/JoeWatts_/status/624105789477752833

Here's why "what labour party membership want" won't win any elections.

All that does for me is reinforce the extent to which Labour were outmanoeuvred by a well-run Tory campaign (aided in no small part by a particularly virulent right-wing press).

Anyway, Corbyn isn't the answer. I'm sorry, but most of the country will look at him and see a beardy old socialist intellectual twat. Plus he'll be 71 or so in 2020. Electing him leader will be an absolute disaster. That said, his competitors are all pretty uninspiring so maybe have at it.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
All that does for me is reinforce the extent to which Labour were outmanoeuvred by a well-run Tory campaign (aided in no small part by a particularly virulent right-wing press).

Anyway, Corbyn isn't the answer. I'm sorry, but most of the country will look at him and see a beardy old socialist intellectual twat. Plus he'll be 71 or so in 2020. Electing him leader will be an absolute disaster. That said, his competitors are all pretty uninspiring so maybe have at it.

The issue with all of these polls is that the questions aren't linked to each other, so it's possible to read several narratives into them. The right, obviously, wants to read into them that the Labour party lost because they weren't right-wing enough. The left, also obviously, wants to read into them that the Labour party lost because they competed with the Tories for centrist voters who are naturally inclined to vote Tory, and in doing so neglected a large section of the population (the young, and the left-wing) who would have voted for them if they'd offered a compelling platform.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
The issue with all of these polls is that the questions aren't linked to each other, so it's possible to read several narratives into them. The right, obviously, wants to read into them that the Labour party lost because they weren't right-wing enough. The left, also obviously, wants to read into them that the Labour party lost because they competed with the Tories for centrist voters who are naturally inclined to vote Tory, and in doing so neglected a large section of the population (the young, and the left-wing) who would have voted for them if they'd offered a compelling platform.

The thing is, one of those narratives is wrong. Non-voters aren't significantly more left-wing than voters. They are somewhat, because young people are more likely to be left-wing and more likely not to vote, but when you control for age, non-voters display very similar attitudes to voters. When you actually look at reasons given by non-voters for why they didn't vote, most of them are candidate/policy independent - the top four are "my vote doesn't make a difference", which is true as long as we have FPTP, "parties are all the same" - which is true to an extent, but stems from both sides (there are a lot of rightwing people who think that Cameron is a wet softie - enough to actually fuel UKIP), and doesn't contain a magical leftwing stash of votes, "not interested in politics/would not vote regardless", which obviously doesn't change, and "not enough information", which is not candidate-dependent even if parties can influence it by improving campaigning methods.

That means there's almost certainly not a well of left-wing voters in the "do not vote" camp that Labour can energize into winning elections. This camp is split easily and their reasons for not voting are largely outside the control of parties anyway. That means a "go left" strategy is, at best, winning Greens/TUSC/etc. voters, and there just aren't very many of those. Labour could win every single Green vote in the country and they wouldn't win the election; it's also pretty implausible they could keep their more centrist voters if they chased their more leftist voters, and it's more important they keep their centrist voters - a vote lost to the Greens counts for one, a vote lost to the Tories counts for two.

I like Jeremy Corbyn's policies. I think it's ludicrous to portray him as some kind of Bennite extremist; he's just from the left of the party, it's not some Stalinist infiltration. I think if elected, he'd probably be the best Prime Minister of the Labour leadership candidates (assuming he could actually field a cabinet and so on). But he won't win. Blair won. Sure, Blair did things that were pretty dreadful, but he also did a shit ton of things that you can bet your testicles the Conservatives would never have done if they got in (you have to remember IDS was a leader at one point!).

It is not worth sacrificing a reduction in NHS waiting times from 18 months to 18 weeks, an unprecedented expansion in access to higher education, a curbing of the unelected House of Lords, the original introduction of the minimum wage, a reduction of crime levels by over a third, record improvements in literacy and numeracy, the establishment of devolved bodies that gave the people of Wales and Scotland genuine influence over their own futures for the first time in centuries, legislated paternity leave, Sure Start, expansion of the European Human Rights system, exceeding the Kyoto global warming targets (as unambitious as they admittedly were), the complete rebuilding of many decaying industrial cities (Cardiff and Manchester are different worlds compared to where they were in the early 1990s), 600,000 children lifted out of poverty, and so on. These were all New Labour achievements, almost all of them were opposed in part by the Conservatives, and they only happened because Labour won.

#unleashthejarvis
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
It is not worth sacrificing a reduction in NHS waiting times from 18 months to 18 weeks, an unprecedented expansion in access to higher education, a curbing of the unelected House of Lords, the original introduction of the minimum wage, a reduction of crime levels by over a third, record improvements in literacy and numeracy, the establishment of devolved bodies that gave the people of Wales and Scotland genuine influence over their own futures for the first time in centuries, legislated paternity leave, Sure Start, expansion of the European Human Rights system, exceeding the Kyoto global warming targets (as unambitious as they admittedly were), the complete rebuilding of many decaying industrial cities (Cardiff and Manchester are different worlds compared to where they were in the early 1990s), 600,000 children lifted out of poverty, and so on. These were all New Labour achievements, almost all of them were opposed in part by the Conservatives, and they only happened because Labour won.

#unleashthejarvis

Without disagreeing with your main point, anybody would have won in 1997. I've said it before, but the Tories were completely unelectable to an extent not seen for a long, long time. Even 2010 Labour were better positioned to lead.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Without disagreeing with your main point, anybody would have won in 1997. I've said it before, but the Tories were completely unelectable to an extent not seen for a long, long time. Even 2010 Labour were better positioned to lead.

Sure, yes. I don't disagree. However, "anyone" will definitely not win in 2020 at the point that "anyone" is a 71 year old tabloid-called Marxist who can't even put a cabinet together.

EDIT: barring obviously unforeseen circumstances like David Cameron snorting coke from a hooker's tits while George Osbourne's sex tape reveals a racist outburst, that is. But if Labour's strategy is to wait for that sequence of events to happen, they deserve the wilderness.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Thirteen years of Labour achievements undone in less than five, and cheered on by Labour as they did it. New Labour's lasting legacy was making the most radically right-wing Tory government ever seem electably centrist. Well done everyone. Lets do that again, it's clearly a winning strategy for everyone.
 
I think it's ludicrous to portray him as some kind of Bennite extremist; he's just from the left of the party, it's not some Stalinist infiltration.

You can't fool me, Crab.

yZOygEP.jpg
 
Sure, yes. I don't disagree. However, "anyone" will definitely not win in 2020 at the point that "anyone" is a 71 year old tabloid-called Marxist who can't even put a cabinet together.

EDIT: barring obviously unforeseen circumstances like David Cameron snorting coke from a hooker's tits while George Osbourne's sex tape reveals a racist outburst, that is. But if Labour's strategy is to wait for that sequence of events to happen, they deserve the wilderness.

But do you really think anyone else has a chance? I mean the rest of them are just...nothing.

Pros of Corbyn: Shift the Overton window back to the left, have someone personable that's at least inspiring a few young people to get into politics

Pros of anyone else: ...uh. They might win an election in 5 years? I guess? Maybe?
Seriously if anyone can make an argument for any of the rest of them I would love to hear it because I've got nothing

Also, I realise this isn't what people actually mean, but I'm highly amused by "We can't let this man get elected! He's unelectable!"
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
But do you really think anyone else has a chance? I mean the rest of them are just...nothing.

Pros of Corbyn: Shift the Overton window back to the left, have someone personable that's at least inspiring a few young people to get into politics

Pros of anyone else: ...uh. They might win an election in 5 years? I guess? Maybe?
Seriously if anyone can make an argument for any of the rest of them I would love to hear it because I've got nothing

Also, I realise this isn't what people actually mean, but I'm highly amused by "We can't let this man get elected! He's unelectable!"

Realistically, Corbyn will not be allowed to shift the Overton window to the left. The press wont let him. We've already seen this. Instead of any serious questions about Corbyn's policies etc., the only thing that anyone gets asked about Corbyn is, 'do you feel stupid for nominating him?' and 'how much of a disaster do you think it would be if Corbyn won?'. You are not allowed to portray Corbyn winning the election as anything less than a disaster. The narrative has to be put into place now so that it sticks if he wins.

But of course the press is not right wing, etc. etc.
 
Realistically, Corbyn will not be allowed to shift the Overton window to the left. The press wont let him. We've already seen this. Instead of any serious questions about Corbyn's policies etc., the only thing that anyone gets asked about Corbyn is, 'do you feel stupid for nominating him?' and 'how much of a disaster do you think it would be if Corbyn won?'. You are not allowed to portray Corbyn winning the election as anything less than a disaster. The narrative has to be put into place now so that it sticks if he wins.

But of course the press is not right wing, etc. etc.

I did mean to put "very slightly" in there but clearly forgot.

And yeah, that's fair, but it's not the 90s anymore where the news was pretty much the only insight into political goings on. We have the internet now, we can get the information directly from a politicians blog or Twitter or Facebook or whatever. It may not make a huge difference, but it's at least a slight crack in the armour of the press.

EDIT: "LET ME BE HOPEFUL DAMNIT :c" is basically what I'm getting at

EDIT 2: Lol

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/im-more-convinced-ever-jeremy-corbyn-going-win said:
Yes, Corbyn’s lead in CLP nominations – he has, at time of writing, 112 to Andy Burnham’s 103 – isn’t necessarily indicative of anything. It’s not binding on members, has no effect on the final outcome, and at times, the number of members in attendance is vanishingly small. At one contest there were just 25 ballots: nine for Jeremy Corbyn, eight for Andy Burnham, four for Yvette Cooper, and one simply reading “Fuck Kendall”.
 

Nicktendo86

Member
No discussion of the sleazy goings on by a certain peer today?

About time the House of Lords was binned or seriously reformed. The one thing the lib dems are right about.
 

Jezbollah

Member
Thirteen years of Labour achievements undone in less than five, and cheered on by Labour as they did it. New Labour's lasting legacy was making the most radically right-wing Tory government ever seem electably centrist. Well done everyone. Lets do that again, it's clearly a winning strategy for everyone.

As someone who voted Labour in 1997, and voted them out in 2010, only a few of those 13 years were "full of achievements". I would go as far as to say that the last few years that party showed they were just as highly regarded as the Tories were in the Major/IDS days.

People do not have short memories, as was shown in May.

When is the Chilcot report out again?
 
No discussion of the sleazy goings on by a certain peer today?

About time the House of Lords was binned or seriously reformed. The one thing the lib dems are right about.

What is there to discuss ? it is a normal day in the house of lords. About the only thing shocking about the over privilege arsehole snorting coke off some hookers tits is that the hookers were of legal age. There is a topic to discuss it though :-

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1084835

Even has a catchy rhyming title.

As for the Labour leadership circus. Which ever one of those guys/gals win, Labour loses. Absolutely NONE of them will be seen by the electorate as "Prime Minister material". So come 2020 if any of them are still in charge of Labour it will be a Tory win even if it is revealed that David Cameron snorting coke from a hooker's tits while George Osbourne's sex tape reveals a racist outburst (copyright Crab).whilst Boris Johnson rides around naked on a bicycle with a dildo as a seat (it really wouldn't surprise me if this was a thing at this point).
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
But do you really think anyone else has a chance? I mean the rest of them are just...nothing.

Pros of Corbyn: Shift the Overton window back to the left, have someone personable that's at least inspiring a few young people to get into politics

Pros of anyone else: ...uh. They might win an election in 5 years? I guess? Maybe?
Seriously if anyone can make an argument for any of the rest of them I would love to hear it because I've got nothing

Also, I realise this isn't what people actually mean, but I'm highly amused by "We can't let this man get elected! He's unelectable!"

Overton Window won't shift when Corbyn loses horribly - or at least, it'll shift, but it'll shift rightwards when Corbyn's GE defeat triggers a counter-movement in the Labour Party that probably ends up being more to the right than it needed to be (Blair is a pretty good example of this, vcassano is right in that Labour could have been at least somewhat more left in '97 and still won).
 
Btw GDP up 0.7% for the quarter. That's 5 out of the last 6 quarters that have been at least that high, and a return to pre-crisis GDP per capita. Though tbh that's a bit of an irrelevance since the whole point of recessions is that they're a reevaluation of overpriced assets.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Btw GDP up 0.7% for the quarter. That's 5 out of the last 6 quarters that have been at least that high, and a return to pre-crisis GDP per capita. Though tbh that's a bit of an irrelevance since the whole point of recessions is that they're a reevaluation of overpriced assets.

No. Categorically wrong. I know you know that's wrong as well, but some bait is too egregious to ignore.
 
Overton Window won't shift when Corbyn loses horribly - or at least, it'll shift, but it'll shift rightwards when Corbyn's GE defeat triggers a counter-movement in the Labour Party that probably ends up being more to the right than it needed to be (Blair is a pretty good example of this, vcassano is right in that Labour could have been at least somewhat more left in '97 and still won).
And when any of the others lose horribly? "Oh we need to be more right wing, Tony Blair!" again? Ignoring that the supposed centre is miles to the right of where it was 20 years ago?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
And when any of the others lose horribly? "Oh we need to be more right wing, Tony Blair!" again? Ignoring that the supposed centre is miles to the right of where it was 20 years ago?

When the others lose, we might be able to get away with "shitty candidate, let's try again" - and that wouldn't really be wrong, either.

Honestly, you don't shift the press by voting in Corbyn. You do it by electing a moderate government which then turns round an implements wide-ranging press reforms like a stronger public interest test on media mergers, break-up of market monopolists, and a conscience clause as per the Leveson Reforms; plus opening up journalistic freedoms in areas like lobbying and improving disclosure, plus making news easy access by reducing VAT on newspapers and the like.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Btw GDP up 0.7% for the quarter. That's 5 out of the last 6 quarters that have been at least that high, and a return to pre-crisis GDP per capita.

Wow, and only three years later than it needed to be! Truly, the economy is in a safe pair of hands.
 
No. Categorically wrong. I know you know that's wrong as well, but some bait is too egregious to ignore.

Naww, come on. OK, not "the whole point", but there was a significant amount of both wealth and businesses that had been either pumped up or kept alive by the unusually low - for such boonish economic times in the 90's and 00's - interest rates that allowed banks to lend so much at such relatively low rates. It's most obvious in the house price increases during that time but a lot of the businesses that went under during the early years of the downturn had been in the shitter for a long time, no? Woolies and the like. It was a business that was alive which, basically, shouldn't have been. And the recession acted as a corrective on the market, thinning out the chaffe.

I am a spaz, though, so feel free to clown me. I mean that.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Naww, come on. OK, not "the whole point", but there was a significant amount of both wealth and businesses that had been either pumped up or kept alive by the unusually low - for such boonish economic times in the 90's and 00's - interest rates that allowed banks to lend so much at such relatively low rates. It's most obvious in the house price increases during that time but a lot of the businesses that went under during the early years of the downturn had been in the shitter for a long time, no? Woolies and the like. It was a business that was alive which, basically, shouldn't have been. And the recession acted as a corrective on the market, thinning out the chaffe.

I am a spaz, though, so feel free to clown me. I mean that.

No, a recession is not a corrective. Yes, there were overvalued assets, in the sense that their present value wasn't an accurate reflection of their future returns - the obvious examples being CDOs, which offered effectively no future returns but were valued quite highly. However, you are absolutely joking if you think that the average asset was overvalued by 23% (how much our GDP fell by per capita), or that the link between asset overvaluation and GDP is even that strong.

Changes in assets valuation don't directly affect GDP in the present that much at all, given GDP measures gross output [how much stuff we make/how many services we provide] and changes in asset valuation reflect expectations of future output [how much stuff we're going to make in the future/how many services we are going to provide]. There's actually incredibly little correlation between the stock market and GDP growth, or even wider returns and GDP growth. At best, you could say that if we produce less now, we might reasonably expect that we should produce less in the future, so asset valuations should fall if GDP falls, but it isn't at all clear why if we expect we will produce less stuff in the future that should damage our ability to produce stuff now - that is, it's not clear why GDP should fall if asset valuations fall. The causal link runs pretty much one way.

Put it this way: weakly performing businesses will get knocked out if consumption drops, yes, that part is right. But it isn't at all clear why the realisation that businesses are performing weakly will make consumption drop, because if consumption hasn't dropped already they pretty much by definition can't be performing that weakly so there's no realisation to make. Now, you can change the argument and say "they would have been performing weakly if it hadn't been for the fact the interest rate was at this level", but there's no specific need for an interest rate to be at any given level - there's no "right" level, it's a choice of trade-offs between inflation and savings and so on. That means if you're saying "they were overvalued", what you really mean is "I didn't like the interest rate at the level it was before, so sucks for anyone who lost out when the interest rate changed".

Incidentally, the last line is why the "they were overvalued" argument is mostly given by the wealthy and elderly people.
 
Firstly, never let it be said that I dont learn from my mistakes. I was wrong, and thanks for the - aha - the corrective, Crab.

That said, it's not that i think there's a "correct" level that it sucks if it's not at, it's that the interest rates were at a level that encouraged banks to lend to people that they wouldn't normally. Obviously this isn't that simple, because "the people they lend to" is defined, in part, by the interest rates. But house prices, as an example, were inflated as a result of people being able to get, for example, 0% mortgages. Furthermore, the businesses that were on life support BEFORE the recession and who then went into terminal cardiac arrest during it would have lowered consumption demand because unemployment goes up. After your explanation, I don't think I am wrong in my thinking, just that I'm wildly over estimating how much impact these things have on GDP.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Banks lending to more people when the interest rate is lower is fine, though. That's the point of a lower interest rate, it's easier for poorer people to make loan repayments. The problem wasn't that banks were lending to poor people, it's that they were absolutely rubbish at risk assessment, and so they were lending to poor people at absolutely stupid levels - much lower than even the low interest rate should have caused. Hiking the interest rate doesn't really do that much, it just shifts the portfolio of where the shitty loans land (so it would have been middle-class sub-prime mortgages instead).

Now, you can say certain financial capital instruments like CDOs were overvalued because of this shitty risk assessment - which they were, and dreadfully so - but it's very unclear as to why this means the rest of the economy should suffer. The actual link is in fact nothing to do with asset revaluation at all (outside of the directly affected industry) and more to do with a liquidity crash because Mervyn King was incompetent (actually, that's mean. He was incompetent, but also many economists aren't actually that up to date with financial capital instruments because they're frankly so complex that even most of the people selling them don't really understand how they work - I sure don't. I wouldn't have known what to do with a CDO in 2007 if one danced around naked in front of me extolling the virtues of Boris Johnson).

Also, your second part is weird. Businesses being on life-support when times are good doesn't mean that the fact they are therefore knocked out when times are bad is "the wheat from the chaff" or any some such. Businesses on life-support are still businesses that hire employees and pay wages and produce products, them stopping existing doesn't do anyone else any good and just means you have more unemployed people. They didn't go bust because of a revaluation of what they were worth; they went bust, became worth less, and then got revalued.
 
Banks lending to more people when the interest rate is lower is fine, though. That's the point of a lower interest rate, it's easier for poorer people to make loan repayments. The problem wasn't that banks were lending to poor people, it's that they were absolutely rubbish at risk assessment, and so they were lending to poor people at absolutely stupid levels - much lower than even the low interest rate should have caused. Hiking the interest rate doesn't really do that much, it just shifts the portfolio of where the shitty loans land (so it would have been middle-class sub-prime mortgages instead).

Well that's kinda what I was talking about - because isn't it basically impossible to do effective risk assessment in such unprecedented situations, no? Lower interest rates were always going to lead to lending to poorer people - like you said - and that's always going to increase risk, in any realistic set of expectations. It's not reasonable to expect anything else, imo, which makes the policy of low interest rates inherently risky.

Also, your second part is weird. Businesses being on life-support when times are good doesn't mean that the fact they are therefore knocked out when times are bad is "the wheat from the chaff" or any some such. Businesses on life-support are still businesses that hire employees and pay wages and produce products, them stopping existing doesn't do anyone else any good and just means you have more unemployed people. They didn't go bust because of a revaluation of what they were worth; they went bust, became worth less, and then got revalued.

Sure it does. Markets only become more efficient at providing services or goods by existing businesses either changing the way they operate or otherwise going bust due to heightened competition making them go bust. This competition might come from existing businesses or new businesses, but in the long term this is a good thing. It's why we don't have any shitty British cars anymore. In the short term it's a bad thing because companies go bust, people lose their jobs etc. The problem is that low interest rates allowing businesses to stay alive when they'd "normally" - and I know there's no "normal" interest rate, but the low rates on this period and for such length were relatively unprecedented - has a similarish effect as Walmart turning up, loss-leading everything to put the competitors out of business and then hiking up the prices; They can use the earnings from the rest of their branches to suck up the losses, and these businesses with unusually cheap loans can do the same, harming the competition (or potential entrents to the market). This can obviously harm the size and quality of any given industry or market (and it's part of the reason why the EU's not a fan of government subsidy of businesses right - cause it harms other business' ability to compete in that market KINDA LIKE COMMERCIAL TV AND THE BBC AINT IT). All this matters because you have these shit companies existing when their could be better alternatives, then they give up the ghost during a recession when no fucker has any money to start alternative businesses, so then you lose the shitty company and you don't have the alternatives popping into place. All of which obviously has some impact on consumption.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Well that's kinda what I was talking about - because isn't it basically impossible to do effective risk assessment in such unprecedented situations, no? Lower interest rates were always going to lead to lending to poorer people - like you said - and that's always going to increase risk, in any realistic set of expectations. It's not reasonable to expect anything else, imo, which makes the policy of low interest rates inherently risky.

This is an extremely kind reading of the situation. Bankers knew that there were risks associated with their lending practices, but they also knew that they probably weren't going to shoulder the burden if it exploded.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Well that's kinda what I was talking about - because isn't it basically impossible to do effective risk assessment in such unprecedented situations, no? Lower interest rates were always going to lead to lending to poorer people - like you said - and that's always going to increase risk, in any realistic set of expectations. It's not reasonable to expect anything else, imo, which makes the policy of low interest rates inherently risky.

Okay, so we're going to get a bit Dick Cheney here, but there are risks and then there are risky risks. Essentially: poorer people are risker than the richer people in that poor people default more often. However, if you know how likely each is to default (say, 10% and 5%), then there's not actual difference in the long-run expected value between the two. As an example, say I can have a 50% chance of winning £8, or a 25% chance of winning £16. The risk is higher on the latter but in the long-run they represent propositions of equal expected value. Additionally, when we say "the long-run", that's actually quite short for financial instruments that are pretty responsive, so I don't mean "over 10 years things would be the same", I mean "over the next year things would be the same".

The problem was not that poor people were riskier than rich people, it's that poor people were riskier than banks expected them to be. Banks thought they had a 50% chance of winning £8 or a 25% chance of winning £16, but they ACTUALLY only had a 25% chance of winning £8. That's entirely independent of interest rates. As it happens, banks were also terrible at working out how risky middle class people were, but it didn't matter because interest rates were so low that even though lots of middle class people also saw sub-prime mortgages, the rest compensated. This wouldn't have been the case if interest rates had been high from the start - we would, as I said early, just have seen a collapse of the banking system from a different point.

The interest rates had very little to do with things. If you were a magic foresight wizard, you'd have hiked interest rates pretty high quite sharply in 2006 and probably delayed the crash a little by trying to compensate for how bad banks were at guessing risks by raising their rates for them, but that is, at best, a very temporary solution - they'd just have crashed later because the fundamental problem is still there and you can't raise interest rates forever.

Sure it does. Markets only become more efficient at providing services or goods by existing businesses either changing the way they operate or otherwise going bust due to heightened competition making them go bust. This competition might come from existing businesses or new businesses, but in the long term this is a good thing. It's why we don't have any shitty British cars anymore. In the short term it's a bad thing because companies go bust, people lose their jobs etc.

I mean sure, businesses getting forced out of markets because of competition is ultimately good (or rather, it's not good in and of itself, but indicates a good process is happening). That's not what happened here. Businesses didn't go bust because of competition, they went bust because the market shrank. In fact, the most common thing that happened was that smaller, entry-level firms with smaller capital stocks were the most likely ones to go bust while the big boys remained, so actually it reduced competition as a whole by weeding out the more responsive and flexible small innovators.

The problem is that low interest rates allowing businesses to stay alive when they'd "normally" - and I know there's no "normal" interest rate, but the low rates on this period and for such length were relatively unprecedented - has a similarish effect as Walmart turning up, loss-leading everything to put the competitors out of business and then hiking up the prices; They can use the earnings from the rest of their branches to suck up the losses, and these businesses with unusually cheap loans can do the same, harming the competition (or potential entrents to the market). This can obviously harm the size and quality of any given industry or market (and it's part of the reason why the EU's not a fan of government subsidy of businesses right - cause it harms other business' ability to compete in that market KINDA LIKE COMMERCIAL TV AND THE BBC AINT IT). All this matters because you have these shit companies existing when their could be better alternatives, then they give up the ghost during a recession when no fucker has any money to start alternative businesses, so then you lose the shitty company and you don't have the alternatives popping into place. All of which obviously has some impact on consumption.

No. Low interest rates aid competition more than they help it. Big firms can get big loans anyway, because they're just less likely to go bust in the long run. Most markets face pretty consistent and difficult barriers to entry that prevent true competition happening. The most effective method of breaking these barriers to entry is to allow smaller firms easier access to financial capital, and they have more access to this at low interest rates.

[this last bit is actually some really cool cutting edge stuff and there are some fun papers on it. there's a new orthodoxy developing that suggests that interest rates have more of a J-curve effect on investment than previously thought, and it maps onto data from the late 90s/early 00s really well]
 
This is an extremely kind reading of the situation. Bankers knew that there were risks associated with their lending practices, but they also knew that they probably weren't going to shoulder the burden if it exploded.

I think with certain products this was certainly the case though I think it's more a case of individuals knowing that they, individually, would not face the repercussions but would make shed loads of money, rather than them having a company wide directive of "HA HA HA, WE'RE TOO BIG TO FAIL!"

Okay, so we're going to get a bit Dick Cheney here, but there are risks and then there are risky risks. Essentially: poorer people are risker than the richer people in that poor people default more often. However, if you know how likely each is to default (say, 10% and 5%), then there's not actual difference in the long-run expected value between the two. As an example, say I can have a 50% chance of winning £8, or a 25% chance of winning £16. The risk is higher on the latter but in the long-run they represent propositions of equal expected value. Additionally, when we say "the long-run", that's actually quite short for financial instruments that are pretty responsive, so I don't mean "over 10 years things would be the same", I mean "over the next year things would be the same".

The problem was not that poor people were riskier than rich people, it's that poor people were riskier than banks expected them to be. Banks thought they had a 50% chance of winning £8 or a 25% chance of winning £16, but they ACTUALLY only had a 25% chance of winning £8. That's entirely independent of interest rates. As it happens, banks were also terrible at working out how risky middle class people were, but it didn't matter because interest rates were so low that even though lots of middle class people also saw sub-prime mortgages, the rest compensated. This wouldn't have been the case if interest rates had been high from the start - we would, as I said early, just have seen a collapse of the banking system from a different point.

But surely the unprecedented nature of the interest rates during this time meant that they were in uncharted waters and, as such, the interest rates were relevant - they were trying to assess the risk associated with people they'd previously never deal with, no?

I mean sure, businesses getting forced out of markets because of competition is ultimately good (or rather, it's not good in and of itself, but indicates a good process is happening). That's not what happened here. Businesses didn't go bust because of competition, they went bust because the market shrank. In fact, the most common thing that happened was that smaller, entry-level firms with smaller capital stocks were the most likely ones to go bust while the big boys remained, so actually it reduced competition as a whole by weeding out the more responsive and flexible small innovators.

No. Low interest rates aid competition more than they help it. Big firms can get big loans anyway, because they're just less likely to go bust in the long run. Most markets face pretty consistent and difficult barriers to entry that prevent true competition happening. The most effective method of breaking these barriers to entry is to allow smaller firms easier access to financial capital, and they have more access to this at low interest rates.

[this last bit is actually some really cool cutting edge stuff and there are some fun papers on it. there's a new orthodoxy developing that suggests that interest rates have more of a J-curve effect on investment than previously thought, and it maps onto data from the late 90s/early 00s really well]

128x128x1f610-google-android.png.pagespeed.ic.gttMBWQrhE.png


But yeah, I bow to your knowledge!
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
But surely the unprecedented nature of the interest rates during this time meant that they were in uncharted waters and, as such, the interest rates were relevant - they were trying to assess the risk associated with people they'd previously never deal with, no?

That's probably a fair criticism, yes - although I want to point out banks were getting it wrong at *all* levels, so it's probably only a small explanatory factor. The main one is that you need a diagram like this:


to understand the absolute basics of the product you sell, never mind the complexities. Point 5 talks about CDOs squared, in real life we hit CDO = mc² levels.

The BoE still fucked up though given they're an integral part of the regulatory system. For all Osborne's other shitty things he's done, appointing Mark Carney was actually a pretty decent move, at least so far. He's handling a difficult situation relatively well.
 
(walks in)

..

So uh

Ed Miliband looks funny with a bacon sandwich amirite guys?


No I kid this is actually interesting and jesus christ anything but Labour leadership "battle" is good
 
(walks in)

..

So uh

Ed Miliband looks funny with a bacon sandwich amirite guys?


No I kid this is actually interesting and jesus christ anything but Labour leadership "battle" is good
Here we come!

John McTernan not taking any prisoners here, re Corbyn:

‘I can’t see any case for letting him have two minutes in office, let alone two years in office because I think the damage that will be done to the Labour party in that period makes it incredibly hard to recover … it just beggars belief that there isn’t something that, in the unlikely event Corbyn wins, there is something is done swiftly and quickly to restore the party to its sense.’

‘How the Labour party in the twenty first century, at a time when Putin is at his most aggressive, can consider electing a leader who would take us out of Nato I have no idea, genuinely no idea —somebody who cannot fund his promises; doesn’t even pretend to fund his promises. Why is that acceptable for the Labour party and why party members of all sorts think that is acceptable to the electorate I have no idea.’

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffee...labour-leader-who-cares-about-the-grassroots/

Edit: Also, Corbyn's now just about favourite on Ladbrokes.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
McTernan's logic: "We need a leader that can control the party, and if we don't have one, we're unelectable! That's why I'm going to incite rebellion when the favourite candidate wins!"

Jesus fucking Christ, and the Blairites wonder why nobody likes them. Like, I am strongly disinclined not to listen to the words of a supposed election strategist when their current election strategy is to help out the opposite as much as possible by saying patently stupid things.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
McTernan's logic: "We need a leader that can control the party, and if we don't have one, we're unelectable! That's why I'm going to incite rebellion when the favourite candidate wins!"

Jesus fucking Christ, and the Blairites wonder why nobody likes them.

The hysteria over Corbyn is torturous. He's a moderate left winger. That's all. In a - theoretically - left of centre party. The more they whine, the more likely he is to actually succeed because nobody cared in the first place.

The one thing you can say for him is that he stands for something. What do Cooper, Burnham, Kendall stand for?

One waves around the NHS like his personal flagpole, despite being partially involved (though not entirely responsible for) Midstaffs. Kendall is a woman and more Tory what that means I don't know but ok. Cooper is a woman but more Brown what that means I don't know but ok. She strikes me as a competent person. Isn't there another person? Maybe I don't know but they sure as fuck proved that they have no idea how to market themselves which is exactly the thing they claim Corbyn can't do.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, it's utterly depressing how vacuous the candidates are. Here's Cooper's website:

http://www.yvetteforlabour.co.uk/about_yvette

Notice that there's no mention of any actual policies. She could be selling progressive-flavoured candy floss for all I know. I actually got posted her campaign literature, and her keyline policy is to reduce child poverty. That's not a god damn policy. No shit you want to reduce child poverty, I think even Osborne and Cameron want to do that as long as it doesn't actually impinge on their other priorities, and they're Conservatives. You may as well tell me you like puppies and approve of pleasant weather, or that your policies are to acheive world peace and celestial enlightenment. A policy is an actual piece of legislation or executive action with a clear mechanism, not some vague platitude.

Her entire campaign is based around saying nothing so that she alienates as few people as possible. Listen to that interview with Humphrys. How on earth can you want to vote for that? Fuck, I'd rather vote for Liz Kendall - I disagree with her strongly, but at least I know what she thinks of things and that she has principles (even if they're bad ones). Yvette Cooper is literally the embodiment of everything that is wrong with modern politics.

I'm perilously close to voting Corbyn at this point out of the hope that something will rise from the resultant ashes, and I like to think I'm on the pragmatic side of the party.
 
Heeheehee, Dan Hodges has set up a (presumably jokey) "Blairites for Corbyn" group on the grounds that Corbyn being elected and then ruthlessly thrashed is the only thing that'll convince people like godels and the Union bosses that what they want won't win them any elections, and that there isn't a mass group of non-voters just waiting for a more left wing to emerge for them to vote for. If Burnham or Cooper win and they, inevitably, lose, that same part of the party will be saying "See, we told you so!" So the sooner Corbyn gets elected and then roasted, the sooner Labour can basically grow up.

EdiT: Tbf there's basically fuck all on Jezza's site that I can find either, only this: http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/why_i_m_standing

Does he still want to leave NATO?
 

Mindwipe

Member
Yeah, it's utterly depressing how vacuous the candidates are. Here's Cooper's website:

http://www.yvetteforlabour.co.uk/about_yvette

That's been her entire career. Remember her admitting during the DRIP debate that she didn't really know what she was voting for because she didn't understand the technology or implications, but was going to support it anyway. And she was fucking Shadow Home Office Minister at the time for fucks sake.

Helen Goodman says that Yvette is superkeen on internet censorship though.

She is not competent. Not in any way.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
That's been her entire career. Remember her admitting during the DRIP debate that she didn't really know what she was voting for because she didn't understand the technology or implications, but was going to support it anyway. And she was fucking Shadow Home Office Minister at the time for fucks sake.

Helen Goodman says that Yvette is superkeen on internet censorship though.

She is not competent. Not in any way.

To clarify, I meant gives the impression of competence. But there is zero excitement and complete calculation behind her actions. She reminds me of a shit Hilary Clinton. Just needs a snapchat saying "Just chilling in Pontefract"
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Heeheehee, Dan Hodges has set up a (presumably jokey) "Blairites for Corbyn" group on the grounds that Corbyn being elected and then ruthlessly thrashed is the only thing that'll convince people like godels and the Union bosses that what they want won't win them any elections, and that there isn't a mass group of non-voters just waiting for a more left wing to emerge for them to vote for. If Burnham or Cooper win and they, inevitably, lose, that same part of the party will be saying "See, we told you so!" So the sooner Corbyn gets elected and then roasted, the sooner Labour can basically grow up.

EdiT: Tbf there's basically fuck all on Jezza's site that I can find either, only this: http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/why_i_m_standing

Does he still want to leave NATO?

There's a tonne of stuff in his news section: http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/news ; including his economic proposals here: https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.n...nomyIn2020_JeremyCorbyn-220715.pdf?1437556345
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom