Nicktendo86
Member
Nice to see the gentler, kinder politics in action.
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UK PoliGAF |OT2| - We Blue Ourselves
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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CyclopsRock
Member
Worth remembering that our economy is more heavily linked to the finance sector than any of the others in the EU. I can't imagine there was any realistic scenario in which we didn't suffer a greater initial recession. There are obviously a bunch of variables like this that make it much harder to compare. Likewise, Germany has a currency that makes its key industry - engineering - far easier to conduct world wide and basically allows them to outsource unemployment to Spain and Greece. You'll notice that at the start of the recession, our index there was higher than anyone but Japan's and by 2010, when George got his hands on the keys, it was already the lowest. From that point, our rate of change has been quite similar to France and Germany. I'd like to see it now, given that 2015 was a good year for us and less so for those two. I'd also be interested to see how Canada's is for 2015 since their economy is, of all the graph, the most heavily linked to natural resources (except maybe the US? the US's is larger I'm sure, but as a percentage of total GDP? I'd guess Canada's was greater).
Obviously GDP is only one measure. Our overall employment growth since 2010 has been higher than the EU average every year, higher than Italy every year, higher than France every year but once and Germany's employment growth actually peaked in 2011 and since then it's still been growing, but by less and less. Certainly, our average has been better than theirs over the last 5 years.
Generally, I think it's really hard definitely say what would have been better (which is why I'm never entirely convinced by Economics being referred to as a Science - they wouldn't all disagree otherwise) but I can certainly see how it could have gone a lot worse. If this is us being the hare (who I'm pretty sure bolted off the line then got tired, right? Where as we hung around at the starting line and then bolted for it) then, well, it's better than being French.
Obviously GDP is only one measure. Our overall employment growth since 2010 has been higher than the EU average every year, higher than Italy every year, higher than France every year but once and Germany's employment growth actually peaked in 2011 and since then it's still been growing, but by less and less. Certainly, our average has been better than theirs over the last 5 years.
Generally, I think it's really hard definitely say what would have been better (which is why I'm never entirely convinced by Economics being referred to as a Science - they wouldn't all disagree otherwise) but I can certainly see how it could have gone a lot worse. If this is us being the hare (who I'm pretty sure bolted off the line then got tired, right? Where as we hung around at the starting line and then bolted for it) then, well, it's better than being French.
Well, it depends on the version. The one I knew was where the Hare napped at the start assuming they would be able to quickly catch up, but when they woke up it was too late.
PJV3
Member
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/10/garden-bridge-metropolitan-police-urged-investigate-procurement-deals
I wonder if this is going to end up biting Boris on the arse eventually, I'm not sure the police will be keen on getting involved, it would probably take a challenge from one of the other bidders.
I wonder if this is going to end up biting Boris on the arse eventually, I'm not sure the police will be keen on getting involved, it would probably take a challenge from one of the other bidders.
Maybe we should put the analogy under review. There are obviously different versions and opinions so we should be patient and take the time to apply proper democratic processes.
I suppose it was inevitable, but I hate how Rose and the "In" campaign have already started with the fear-of-the-unknown bullshit.
Also, in the issue that I suspect will define opinion pieces this week, a group of senior ex-judges have said that the UK should accept more migrants and criticise the Dublin system.
Also, in the issue that I suspect will define opinion pieces this week, a group of senior ex-judges have said that the UK should accept more migrants and criticise the Dublin system.
Visualante2
Member
Debate on an e-petition relating to making the production, sale and use of cannabis legal
Monday 12 October 2015 Meeting starts at 4.30pm
Monday 12 October 2015 Meeting starts at 4.30pm
FlammableD
Banned
Meeting ends 4:32
CyclopsRock
Member
There was someone on LBC from the "In" campaign (I didn't catch their name) who said, basically in the same breath, that the EU brings in £300-£500 (I think that was the number) extra per person a year and that we have literally no idea what situation we'd be in if we weren't in it. So... where do they get the figure from?
PJV3
Member
Corbyn wanted it legalised and have Amsterdam style coffee houses, I bet he gets forced to drop that idea as well.
Cyclops, be prepared for 2 years of wanky statistics, perhaps they're including inward investment.
not really sure that's casual racism?
The fact that a large amount of our economic output is linked with the financial sector is an issue in and of itself, though.
Again; the Eurozone had its own sets of issues at the time, so comparing the UK to Eurozone countries is difficult.
And yes, Economics is an inexact social science. But the economics case on this point has been settled for a huge amount of time--you don't cut spending during a recession. Even Friedman agreed with that.
FlammableD
Banned
is it? i don't really see it as that.
i mean it's definitely a bit personal, but casually racist?
PJV3
Member
He brought her up during the work like the Chinese thing, she was stupid for thinking it meant open season to have a pop. It isn't racist, just rude, stupid and as you say uncalled for.
Nicktendo86
Member
Labour u turning on the fiscal charter.
Thank goodness. Nice to see Labour provide some actual opposition, both to the government and financial idiocy.
Lol, the most experience (past experience being 1 bridge design vs 25) and most economically sound (despite being the most expensive contract out of the lot) just add icing to the cake. But TFL are behind it as well eh? Interested to see what comes of this.
PJV3
Member
The trouble is that the paperwork has been destroyed(handy but also illegal), so that usually derails an investigation.
His mate wanted a bridge and that's that.
Regardless of the innocence of Lord Brittan. The amount of vitriol and hatred that Tom Watson is receiving for what he did is a very good example of how people people like Peter Hayman, Jimmy Saville and Cyril Smith got away with what they did for so long.
Although not perfect, what Tom Watson did was better than turning the blind eye most others in Westminster have done to the abuse that has been going on.
Although not perfect, what Tom Watson did was better than turning the blind eye most others in Westminster have done to the abuse that has been going on.
Nicktendo86
Member
Accusing innocent people of being evil is not something to receive a pat on the back for. I don't think his crusades are for good, they are politically motivated.
Anyways, sounds like tonight's labour plp meeting has not gone down well. Check our George Eaton's tweets.
Anyways, sounds like tonight's labour plp meeting has not gone down well. Check our George Eaton's tweets.
Jezbollah
Member
There are two issues at hand here - the over-reaction to the investigations (that the Met have already apologised for) and the air of politicialisation that some seem to think others have displayed over this. If Britton was not a Conservative, would Watson have come out with what he said? This is a man who's own uncle was convicted for child abuse.
Shouldn't the message and approach for accusing others be the same regardless of what party he/she belongs to? For me, Watson coming out to do what he did against someone who had an investigation into him dropped is one thing, but to dismiss his own uncle as being someone he "hardly knew" when he was convicted of such crimes is something that stinks to be honest.
Shouldn't the message and approach for accusing others be the same regardless of what party he/she belongs to? For me, Watson coming out to do what he did against someone who had an investigation into him dropped is one thing, but to dismiss his own uncle as being someone he "hardly knew" when he was convicted of such crimes is something that stinks to be honest.
Wrestlemania
Banned
His uncle was convicted. Why is it relevant? "You're uncle was a child abuser so it's a bit rich for you to try to accuse someone of being a child abuser!"
PJV3
Member
It's to be expected really.
John Mann is going to complain whatever happens, if Corbyn does alright in May it will calm down and the MP's might relax a little.
Jezbollah
Member
I dont know. Maybe the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" doesnt apply to political opponents?
Nicktendo86
Member
Oh dear
Don't forget that the original letter asking for an inquiry into child abuse was cross party and that Lord Janner, a Labour peer is facing a trial of facts.
Wrestlemania
Banned
Again - what's the relevance of his uncle?
Nicktendo86
Member
Larua Kuenssberg:
Bets on how long it will be before an SDP style split?
Bets on how long it will be before an SDP style split?
blairites before corbyn election: 'don't vote for corbyn, think of all the people who need us to get into power so we can help them!'
blairites after corbyn election: 'we're going to divide the labour vote even further by splitting off on our own!'
Funnily enough I don't see that happening this election cycle, certainly not before the EU referendum since you'd have thought the Blairites would realise that getting rid of Corbyn would result in him joining Vote Leave.
Was about to post this. This was always bound to happen but the Labour party are coming apart at the seams.
The mistake was supporting the fiscal charter in the first place. At least now they're doing the right thing and opposing it.
PJV3
Member
I think they're more worried about the Momentum group, even Mann was against the fiscal charter, he just really didn't like the way the policy changed.
Corbyn really needs to put their minds at rest about being deselected, Even though people like Bradshaw were parachuted in over the CLPs choice. It will cost him the leadership.
I just wish we had PR instead of FPTP and they could have a sensible divorce.
In an interesting twist, most of the papers seem to be running with the Watson story rather than the issues at the PLP meeting - wonder how that latter story will develop.
This reinforces my current theory that we might get another deputy leader before the 2020 election depending on how things shake out.
This reinforces my current theory that we might get another deputy leader before the 2020 election depending on how things shake out.
PJV3
Member
I think Watson is lucky he has a leader who just doesn't give a flying fuck about the press. Unless there's a killer blow coming he should be alright, his role is more in the background and out of the public eye.
JonathanEx
Member
No10 backing down on providing prison services to Saudi Arabia.
Now let's see Corbyn fail to take advantage of an open goal in the media!
Now let's see Corbyn fail to take advantage of an open goal in the media!
Nicktendo86
Member
Excellent, Michael Gove got his way.
Apparently, Corbyn didn't know that McDonnell was going to U-turn on the fiscal charter. He is clearly not leading that party.
JonathanEx
Member
I wasn't sure what the make of Corbyn - but the first few weeks have made me think he's the wrong choice completely. He just isn't leading - or attempting to engage with the public outside of rallies of people who already support him.
I get the party should give him a bit more support: it feels like they want to ignore the overwhelming result from the election, but I guess that respect is a two way streak.
I mean with tax credits especially, if you're not starting now getting in to people's heads that the Tories and in particular Osborne are why you'll have less money (in the way that Labour were irresponsible was something that was drilled in to the point of accepted as fact), how will you have any chance convincing people later to vote their way?
CyclopsRock
Member
Ain't it. I get that he's trying to let the party decide things and whatnot, but a) that doesn't seem to be what's happening here (where his Shadow Chancellor changes his mind on something - allegedly because he basically misunderstood an aspect of it - then said at lunchtime that he'd consult with the PLP and then by the time of the meeting had already decided and announced the U-Turn) and b) still isn't leadership.
IMO it's mad that Ed removed so much of the link between the PLP and the choice of leader when the relationship between the two is basically vital to functioning as an opposition. And shame on those MPs who nominated someone they disagree with in order to widen the debate. Who did they think they were looking out for?
McDonnell will not be Shadow Chancellor by 2017, let alone the time of the election. I would stake my life on it. His appointment was necessary to give Corbyn an ally in the shadow cabinet in the early days, nothing more.
I disagree with this assessment, given that he has attacked the government's housing record, foreign policy, austerity, etc, and has fiercely criticised Osborne's approach on tax credits (both the poverty issue and the 'send out the letters after Christmas' approach). I think it is a refreshing change to Miliband's "you're wrong, but I won't say why" approach, personally (then again, of course I would)
I still feel that far too much attention is being placed on utterly meaningless aspects of his leadership (the Privy Council is a good example) and essentially removing his opportunity to present a case, though I'm sure people will argue the same is true of any opposition leader. It is true, though, that those are issues that the voting public care about.
This is a fair criticism.
I mean, I would argue that the MP threshold is oddly restrictive anyhow, but the whole point of removing the PLP from the leadership battle was as part of an ongoing effort to stop the unions taking over the Labour party. He just utterly failed to think it through, because assuming that people are morons tends to be a bad idea.
I disagree with this assessment, given that he has attacked the government's housing record, foreign policy, austerity, etc, and has fiercely criticised Osborne's approach on tax credits (both the poverty issue and the 'send out the letters after Christmas' approach). I think it is a refreshing change to Miliband's "you're wrong, but I won't say why" approach, personally (then again, of course I would)
I still feel that far too much attention is being placed on utterly meaningless aspects of his leadership (the Privy Council is a good example) and essentially removing his opportunity to present a case, though I'm sure people will argue the same is true of any opposition leader. It is true, though, that those are issues that the voting public care about.
This is a fair criticism.
I mean, I would argue that the MP threshold is oddly restrictive anyhow, but the whole point of removing the PLP from the leadership battle was as part of an ongoing effort to stop the unions taking over the Labour party. He just utterly failed to think it through, because assuming that people are morons tends to be a bad idea.
Jezbollah
Member
So correct me if I'm wrong here.. Earlier on in the day, McDonnell said that he would be asking for advice from the PLP and then the Shadow Cabinet the next day with regards to this stance - and then comes out at the PLP meeting already having made the decision and not telling Corbyn anything about it?
CyclopsRock
Member
That certainly was part of the reason (and pretty admirable from Ed) but I still think it fails to appreciate that that the PLP is *the* group that the leader needs the faith and respect (or at least belief) from. Without that, it doesn't really matter if the leader was parachuted in from the upper echelons, a union stooge or an ex-soldier single dad. He or she cannot function. Of course, this is something of a perfect storm because not only is Corby's politics pretty unpopular amongst the PLP but - unlike, say, Watson - he's also incredibly inexperienced at the dirty bit of politics *and* he and McDonnell have records of complete disloyalty themselves.
The fiscal bill will be interesting - I wonder how many will abstain.
Nicktendo86
Member
The press release went out DURING the plp. Strait talking, honest politics with a broad debate there.
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