Hard to argue that most of those are stupid - but they are stupid because of tradition. If anyone can understand stupid traditions then it is the Scots.
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UK PoliGAF |OT2| - We Blue Ourselves
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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Hard to argue that most of those are stupid - but they are stupid because of tradition. If anyone can understand stupid traditions then it is the Scots.
anonymous_abc
Member
You are very optimistic on the matter. I have my doubts.
QuicheFontaine
Member
It's an odd list. I don't know if FPTP belongs on the same list as "this doorman has a silly wig"
Edit:
I can't look into it right now, but the assertion that the commons was "deliberately designed" to seat half the MPs sounds like bunk. Wasn't it built hundreds of years ago when there were fewer MPs.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
It's not bunk at all. The Commons chamber was built in 1852, when there were 654 MPs (slightly more than there are now).
QuicheFontaine
Member
I stand corrected.
Edit:
Shouldn't we have twice as many MPs now then? Or did we have twice as many MPs as necessary back then?
They're both things surviving on the fact they're in place. If you started with a blank sheet of paper neither would make the cut.
The 'benefits' of FPTP are over stated. The majority of other countries manage under a fairer system which may not produce the 'strong' governments of FTFP (funny enough those strong governments always seem to get in with almost absolute power with the support of relatively little of the electorate).
We managed 5 years of coalition government which to some extent stopped a party with 36% of the 65% who voted running hog wild.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
We had Ireland back then, and University Members, and various rotten boroughs.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I don't disagree. My point is that one of those is serious and the other is harmless.
Anyone see the Tory voter breaking down on QT over the fact her tax credits are going
The classic poor right wing voter paradox. Cutting 'entitlements' is absolutely wonderful until 'my' entitlements are cut. Everyone else is a scrounger except me, I deserve what I get.
I'd have some sympathy if she believed Cameron's lies, but those lies were so transparent they could replace glass, ultimately she got exactly what she voted for.
Politically I'd say it might be a problem for the Tories, but it's so early in the cycle they'll get away with it.
The classic poor right wing voter paradox. Cutting 'entitlements' is absolutely wonderful until 'my' entitlements are cut. Everyone else is a scrounger except me, I deserve what I get.
I'd have some sympathy if she believed Cameron's lies, but those lies were so transparent they could replace glass, ultimately she got exactly what she voted for.
Politically I'd say it might be a problem for the Tories, but it's so early in the cycle they'll get away with it.
CharmingCharlie
Member
I generally do not watch Question Time for economic reasons (I can't afford to keep replacing my TV every time I throw something at it). I have been reading up on the story today and I am in two minds about it.
I honestly have a hard time believing a single mother voted Tory. That to me is mind blowing that a single mother would for one second even think a Tory Government would be on her side. The fact she actually believed she would be better under a Tory Government is just like "WOW you aint very bright are you darling ?"
Then there is the realisation that this woman will be voting Tory again in 2020 because Corbyn is scary and Labour will spend spend spend and the Tories are the party of the working people this time, honest, we are, really, this time definitely.
Voters like her are the very voters that Corbyn and the Labour party need to win over, if they want to win anything in the next years elections, let alone the 2020 general election. It's also the easiest political attack campaign ever, just repeatedly show Cameron saying 'no tax credit cuts'. Hammer it home repeatedly. Cameron lies and attacks the very people he praises as 'hard working strivers'.
From what I've read the very reason Cameron's sending this letter is that he's not put forward any real proposals yet, so there's nothing to be approved by layers of diplomats on all sides. I think the Tories have been terrified of any proposals leaking and people attacking them over being too weak or too strong.
From what I've read the very reason Cameron's sending this letter is that he's not put forward any real proposals yet, so there's nothing to be approved by layers of diplomats on all sides. I think the Tories have been terrified of any proposals leaking and people attacking them over being too weak or too strong.
CyclopsRock
Member
Is that really how it works, though? Do you ask if rich women who vote Labour "are very bright, darling??" It always seems to me that people - both left and right - think that it's fine if their side votes based on personal financial incentive but that it's morally wrong for the other side to. It gets you into this weird situation where, for some people, the choice of government should be obvious.
In reality, of course, it's always going to play a part but (aside from the fact that economics aren't everything), you can think that "Policy X" is a good one even if you'll personally lose our from it, and think a policy that you'll benefit is bad. I'll give you an example - I think Help to Buy is a bad policy, but it'll likely help me out a lot. So if the Tories say "We'll keep doing it!" and Labour say "We'll get rid of it!", would you say that I "ain't very bright" for voting Labour? It's not like cuts are cuts are cuts. You can support a cut in one place and not another.
CharmingCharlie
Member
I should have been a bit clearer why I was calling this voter "not very bright", I was not calling her an idiot because she voted Tory. It's like this :-
JK Rowling, single parent very well off but votes labour knowing full well that she will be worse off under labour but she is fine with that if it helps to create a better society. This voter is NOT an idiot.
Alternate reality JK Rowling, single parent very well off and votes labour cos she is under the impression she will be better off under labour despite the fact every single solitary shred of data and information says in big red flashing neon lights that she will be well and truly screwed under labour. Then she goes on tv and cries her eyes out because under Labour the party she voted for she is worse off. This voter is most definitely a grade A moron, a complete and utter idiot.
Now on the other side of the scale :-
Poor single parent mother votes Tory because she believes hard choices need to be made and she appreciates she and her family will suffer greatly but it is a sacrifice that needs to be made to secure a future for the UK and her children. This voter is NOT an idiot.
Poor single parent mother votes Tory because for some bizarre reason she is under the impression the Tories are best for her family despite every single solitary bit of data and information we had shows that she is going to get fucked 6 ways from Sunday. Then appears on question time crying that she voted Tory and got fucked 6 ways from Sunday by them. This voter is an idiot and not very bright.
That is commendable and no it doesn't make you an idiot if you base your vote on what you believe is in the best interests of the country. You would however be a complete and utter idiot if you did that then went on national TV going "I voted for labour because I don't agree with the right to buy, now thanks to them getting rid of it I can't buy a house. It's not fair, Labour have let me down".
CyclopsRock
Member
This we can certainly agree with, though it's worth noting that this certainly wasn't in the Tory manifesto and whilst Cam didn't technically lie ("that's not something I want to do" and "It's not something I plan to do" obviously doesn't preclude actually doing it), he was incredibly evasive. She may well have genuinely thought that they weren't going to cut it. In which case, arguably, she's also an idiot but for kinda a different reason.
it's really a bit unfair to go round calling people idiots for not being as in the know about political issues as political junkies or not having the same partisanship of those that are ideological. she basically did the basic fundamentals of citizenship, looked at the election issues at the last election and then voted what she thought would be best for her priorities.
CyclopsRock
Member
This is largely true. But it was also well known that there was a huge amount of money to be cut from the welfare bill, whose targets were unknown. And I don't think that was a UK PoliGAF wonk thing; Labour were shouting about it from the rooftops during the election. She can't have known it was this, but she should have known it was something.
Audioboxer
Member
Sadly I still think a lot of people vote based upon family/friends/tradition, rather than truly independently. Like America though it's pretty much a two party country now. It's really hard to feel hope/empowered voting for a smaller party even if you agree with the majority of what they are saying. The Greens come to mind, and even now the lib dems when they try to rebuild.
I can just imagine family arguments where a conservative or labour voter wishes to change allegiance and the family saying "what do you mean you are voting for that dirty party!". So much loyalty where it's unnecessary. These aren't football teams, but individuals and party members sworn in to lead the country.
It's not wrong for anyone to wish to vote conservative, but right now the leaders of the conservative party are such dickheads it's wise to think about who is actually leading the party you currently support.
I can just imagine family arguments where a conservative or labour voter wishes to change allegiance and the family saying "what do you mean you are voting for that dirty party!". So much loyalty where it's unnecessary. These aren't football teams, but individuals and party members sworn in to lead the country.
It's not wrong for anyone to wish to vote conservative, but right now the leaders of the conservative party are such dickheads it's wise to think about who is actually leading the party you currently support.
There are plenty of people who believed the rhetoric that it's all going on asylum seekers and scroungers, when any realistic look shows that the vast, vast majority is going on pensions and in work benefits.
CyclopsRock
Member
I'm genuinely curious which previous leader/leadership group of the Conservative party you'd rather we had.
As I said it's the classic right wing low income voter trap. In her mind it was fine, she's not a scounger, she works hard. Benefits are bad, but not her benefits, she deserves hers, she's not one of those undeserving layabouts out of work that the Tories are always banging on about. She's a striver, the Tories protect strivers don't they. Ultimately she thought she was making the best decision in her own best interest, but she's miscalculated, she's in the other pile who are about to get shat on from a great height. I'd say it serves her right, she was willing to put in her mind her own self interest far beyond those of she thought were worthy of what the Tories were going to do, but ultimately I just feel sorry for her.
Quite how people continually vote against their own self interest is a testament to the power of fear and the unbelievable willingness for the human mind to fool itself.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Not necessarily. The announced changes in dividend taxation work against my self-interest but I am wholly in favour of them (unlike my accountant, who is spitting mad). That's because it closes off an exploitable and frequently exploited loophole in the tax law. Sure, if it stayed I would be stupid to not take advantage of it - but on the whole it is better that it isn't there.
License fee results are in, suggests very few in favour of a part subscription service, a slim majority in favour of extending the license fee to cover iPlayer.
I like the idea of a "modernised" licence fee though, what does that mean, you can pay by Bitcoin?
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/news...gainst-part-subscription.html#~priR1wR9wtPby7
I like the idea of a "modernised" licence fee though, what does that mean, you can pay by Bitcoin?
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/news...gainst-part-subscription.html#~priR1wR9wtPby7
People still seeking political office should not go on that show - it can only end poorly.
Alan Johnson did well, that's about it.
Anyone catch the lady who almost started tearing up on Question Time over the tax credit cuts the Tories promised they wouldn't initiate?
Cameron responds to Question Time tax credits complaint
Cameron responds to Question Time tax credits complaint
http://www.theguardian.com/society/...ould-protest-if-i-were-a-misled-junior-doctor
The new response seems to be 'if they understood what we were really doing, they wouldn't have a problem', especially saying that about junior doctors who understand their contract perfectly well.
Jezbollah
Member
Where's the quote from Cameron?
Blaming the union (if the union is not at fault here) is not a sustainable position for any politician.
There's a quote from his spokesperson.
No, the Union is in no way at fault, at all. Hunt is calculating and deliberately cutting the NHS at its knees so that when it inevitably topples due to his intentional mismanagement they can start privatise the whole thing to completion. I know a few junior doctors and the whole situation is outrageous. It's exactly what was done to NHS Dentisry.
To be fair it worked out pretty well for Boris and he was a bumbling disaster whenever he was on it!
I'm a bit sad they don't seem to be doing extended versions this season. The first episode with Clarkson was so heavily edited I was looking forward to seeing a bit more but it must've just been too libellous.
anonymous_abc
Member
I wasn't aware a new season had started yet, lol at the Corbyn and McDonnell on the escalator.
anonymous_abc
Member
Just to confirm that you know that's not actually them right?
So that wasn't Sepp Blatter falling into the cleaning bucket either?
Naah, that was himSo that wasn't Sepp Blatter falling into the cleaning bucket either?
Nicktendo86
Member
Tories on a 13 point comres lead on 42% to labour's 29%.
That Corbyn bounce.
That Corbyn bounce.
Given we've just had the Conservative conference and that was immediately followed by the
PJV3
Member
That's normal for comres isn't it?, other polls vary between +5/+8.
I'm not expecting much of a bounce or collapse until we actually know if he gets a grip of the party, people don't even expect Corbyn to last a year.
Funny thing is that according to IFS economists the lady wouldn't have been affected.. Maybe not before the rant on TV, the hmrc might want to talk to her as she's admitted to running a business without being mindful of operating at a profit.
CyclopsRock
Member
There's some cray-cray blue-on-blue Judean People's Front shit going on with the out campaign. One of them posted up some bizarro article about how Dan Hannan isn't *really* anti-EU. So weird.
Beinazir Lasharie, a former Big Brother contestant who is now a Labour councillor in West London, posted a video on Facebook titled ISIS: Israeli Secret Intelligence Service.
She commented: Many people know about who was behind 9/11 and also who is behind ISIS. Ive nothing against Jews . . . just sharing it!
She then wrote last week: Ive heard some compelling evidence about ISIS being originated from Zionists!
Tory MP Oliver Dowden says: It beggars belief these vile comments came from an elected representative of the Labour Party. She should apologise and resign immediately.
Cllr Lasharie refused to apologise for her comments and said: I dont know what to believe any more. Ive seen compelling evidence that links Zionists to ISIS.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...ure-to-sack-councillor-Beinazir-Lasharie.html
How messed up can you be?
She commented: Many people know about who was behind 9/11 and also who is behind ISIS. Ive nothing against Jews . . . just sharing it!
She then wrote last week: Ive heard some compelling evidence about ISIS being originated from Zionists!
Tory MP Oliver Dowden says: It beggars belief these vile comments came from an elected representative of the Labour Party. She should apologise and resign immediately.
Cllr Lasharie refused to apologise for her comments and said: I dont know what to believe any more. Ive seen compelling evidence that links Zionists to ISIS.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...ure-to-sack-councillor-Beinazir-Lasharie.html
How messed up can you be?
Well they see using fear/ smearing worked in Scotland so are trying it again. I can see it messing up tho.
The more I hear about this junior doctor harder it gets to see it as anything but a deliberate attempt to cause as much damage to the NHS as possible. It's win win for the government really, either they push through the contract, and use the resulting shitshow to push for greater privatisation or there's a strike which they will also use as justification for cracking down on unions and greater privatisation.
Also the BBCis reporting that the SNP is going to hold out for 60% support for Independance for at least a year before indyref2.
Also the BBCis reporting that the SNP is going to hold out for 60% support for Independance for at least a year before indyref2.
Audioboxer
Member
It wouldn't work again in Scotland, but country wide fear will still be the name of the game.
By the way Sturgeon dropped a pig joke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPfR6bncKyM
CyclopsRock
Member
What fear/smearing was there in Scotland?
Fear of the unknown, the constant talk about the currency union, that hilarious incident where all the businesses signed the letter to I think it was the Telegraph basically screaming "you can't leave!". Plus there was a lot of talk about how nationalist supporters were violent etc as well as accusations of BBC bias (which as I recall were statistically unfounded but you know how it is)
Actually I'd say the bigger issue in Scotland was the desperate promises Better Together made in the last days of the campaign, which were wrong both from an English perspective and the perspective of 'don't make promises you have no intention of fucking keeping'.
The most egregious thing which comes to mind which comes to mind was Better Together implying (and occasionally saying) UK pensions wouldn't be paid.
Which was confirmed by the UK Government to be completely incorrect. Didn't stop the posters and the mailshots though.
Alistair Darling
"On the subject of pensions, what happens with separation? Nobody knows – certainly not the Scottish Government.”
Don't forget all of Better Together's nonsensical claims about North Sea oil.
It was always going to happen though. Cameron got Devo Max removed from the referendum because it was always going to be the clear victor. Promising something similar (without any legal obligation to actually fulfil it, unlike if it was an actual choice in the vote) was always going to be his trump card should it look like they might actually lose the referendum.
In the end though it just exists to feed a "Don't believe their lies" narrative next time, which it is looking increasingly likely there will be.
It was always going to happen though. Cameron got Devo Max removed from the referendum because it was always going to be the clear victor. Promising something similar (without any legal obligation to actually fulfil it, unlike if it was an actual choice in the vote) was always going to be his trump card should it look like they might actually lose the referendum.
In the end though it just exists to feed a "Don't believe their lies" narrative next time, which it is looking increasingly likely there will be.
Bette togethers nonsensical claims about North Sea Oil?
Weird, in the current situation I would say it was the other way around. The SNP plans for North Sea Oil were wildly optimmistic, and given the current price of oil (which doesn't look to be shifting anytime in the next decade according to the industry reports), an independant Scotland would be utterly bankrupt at the moment? The SNP budget didn't work when oil was trading at 90 dollars a barrel. In the current climate?
Ultimately though, as Cyclops has said, campaigns for the status quo are always going to be slightly fear mongering. That's the nature of the beast - you can't avoid it, and it's not really fair to label it as "scare mongering". It writes off a completely valid argument - not every change is good, and there is value in having confidence about what the future holds. Businesses *like* stability, of course they are going to want the same tomorrow as they have today.
Weird, in the current situation I would say it was the other way around. The SNP plans for North Sea Oil were wildly optimmistic, and given the current price of oil (which doesn't look to be shifting anytime in the next decade according to the industry reports), an independant Scotland would be utterly bankrupt at the moment? The SNP budget didn't work when oil was trading at 90 dollars a barrel. In the current climate?
Ultimately though, as Cyclops has said, campaigns for the status quo are always going to be slightly fear mongering. That's the nature of the beast - you can't avoid it, and it's not really fair to label it as "scare mongering". It writes off a completely valid argument - not every change is good, and there is value in having confidence about what the future holds. Businesses *like* stability, of course they are going to want the same tomorrow as they have today.
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