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UK PoliGAF |OT2| - We Blue Ourselves

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C

Coriolanus

Banned
ruttyboy said:
I get that, but why does everyone just accept it? No one in the opposition just stands up and says, "Fine, whatever, if not doing anything about it is so terrible, how does that excuse you doing nothing about it now?"

They are literally pointing out just how similar they are to something they are deriding!

There's no way you'd accept that kind of answer from a child, but apparently we're supposed to from the Prime Minister...
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If you say "fine, whatever, but why...", then you've already conceded that your party caused/had a large part in creating the problem, so why should anyone trust you with the solution? Then one can just spin that the damage from terrible labour policies is so large that it is proving too difficult to tackle, and it certainly would be easier if we could pass policy X.
 
R

ruttyboy

Member
Coriolanus said:
If you say "fine, whatever, but why...", then you've already conceded that your party caused/had a large part in creating the problem, so why should anyone trust you with the solution? Then one can just spin that the damage from terrible labour policies is so large that it is proving too difficult to tackle, and it certainly would be easier if we could pass policy X.
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I was paraphrasing. You wouldn't say it like that, my point is that if you don't point out their logic fail you're signing off on a 'Some are more equal than others' situation.

Labour not stopping X happening = bad, Conservatives not stopping X happening = good.
 
B

Beefy

Member
Dan27 said:
The thing is - there was opportunity for Corbyn to expose the differences between the PM and his Chancellor with regards to Google's tax arrangement. There was opportunity for Corbyn to nail the Tories on the court judgement on the Bedroom tax. There was also opportunity to push Cameron on the migrant issue in general.

However, we are left with the main talking point after PMQs being the debate on the use of the collective noun of those people.

It doesn't surprise me one bit when I hear about Labour losing their remaining Holyrood seats - Angus Robertson does a much better job at PMQs with two questions compared to JC's six....

EDIT: I have just seen on Twitter that Corbyn has written to the PM with regards to him using the words "a bunch of migrants"...........
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Did Osborne even get a grilling at all?
 
phisheep

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
I'm listening to Radio 4. Michael Gove seems to be getting a lot of cross-party support for his Justice Secretary stuff. Not just for reversing some of what Grayling did, but for his own initiatives, and also personally for the way he is approaching things.

Potential Conservative leader there?
 
M

Maledict

Member
phisheep said:
I'm listening to Radio 4. Michael Gove seems to be getting a lot of cross-party support for his Justice Secretary stuff. Not just for reversing some of what Grayling did, but for his own initiatives, and also personally for the way he is approaching things.

Potential Conservative leader there?
Click to expand...

Yep. He has a lot of support from MPs as a compromise candidate between Osbourne and May. He will do better than people expect when the election comes round.
 
U

Uzzy

Member
There's some interesting commentary from the Tories regarding the latest talks between Cameron and Tusk.

Paul Goodman, from Conservative Home, is very scathing about the scale of the renegotiation, listing ten aims that he claims Cameron's abandoned in these negotiations.

Over at the Telegraph, however, there's an article from Philip Cowley and Tim Bale, which suggests that while there's widespread discontent with the EU amongst Tory MPs and the scale of the renegotiations, they think that the referendum will result in Britain staying in the EU, so they might not bother campaigning for the Out campaign.
 
K

Kuros

Member
Uzzy said:
There's some interesting commentary from the Tories regarding the latest talks between Cameron and Tusk.

Paul Goodman, from Conservative Home, is very scathing about the scale of the renegotiation, listing ten aims that he claims Cameron's abandoned in these negotiations.

Over at the Telegraph, however, there's an article from Philip Cowley and Tim Bale, which suggests that while there's widespread discontent with the EU amongst Tory MPs and the scale of the renegotiations, they think that the referendum will result in Britain staying in the EU, so they might not bother campaigning for the Out campaign.
Click to expand...

The EU renegotiations seem to be pretty staged managed. We all know the PM will get the deal he needs to come back and say he will be voting for staying in. This was probably sorted a long time ago with Merkel/Juncker etc.

The Tories who are anti EU probably know that there is little chance of a win in any referendum and will keep their council rather than be seen on the losing side. Especially with the way the "out " campaign is conducting itself with all the infighting.
 
K

kmag

Member
phisheep said:
I'm listening to Radio 4. Michael Gove seems to be getting a lot of cross-party support for his Justice Secretary stuff. Not just for reversing some of what Grayling did, but for his own initiatives, and also personally for the way he is approaching things.

Potential Conservative leader there?
Click to expand...

He'll be political plutonium soon. The sock of the free school fiasco is about to hit the Tories in the face, there's just not enough schools being built in the right places but plenty of dosh being wasted letting their pals profit off playing headmaster in areas will comparatively decent provision.
 
M

Moosichu

Member
Protome said:
On a pile of money (that his pals gave him as incentives for this crap.)
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I really don't understand it though, he lives such a comfortable life. He seems to be putting himself under stress and make himself a hated person just for the sake of increasing a number.

It's almost like a Trophy or Achievement collector on PSN or XBOX Live, but with much more dire consequences.
 
R

ruttyboy

Member
Moosichu said:
I really don't understand it though, he lives such a comfortable life. He seems to be putting himself under stress and make himself a hated person just for the sake of increasing a number.

It's almost like a Trophy or Achievement collector on PSN or XBOX Live, but with much more dire consequences.
Click to expand...

I guess when your mates are billionaires, being merely a millionaire loses its lustre.
 
U

Uhyve

Member
So I missed this but man, it'd make me feel alot more confident in the UK politics if this was required by law for all MPs.

Shadow Chancellor publishes tax return.

That sort of transparency should be mandatory, it's insane that lobbying and expenses are so common place that they are accepted as the norm and don't even even need hiding.

Though £61k seems alittle less than I would've expected, heh.

Edit: There was a strong implication in the article that George Osborne wouldn't publish his due to the Google tax deal.
Edit 2: Also can I point out the absurdity of the Huddersfield A&E being shut down. God forbid someone has a medical emergency and needs an ambulance within 45 minutes, this after David Cameron pledged to sort out the PFI mess that Halifax got into, screwing over our local hospital. It'll only cost 157 lives per year!
 
Jezbollah

Jezbollah

Member
Eh.. The nearest A&E to Huddersfield is Calderdale which is 7 miles away.. I remember my old local hospital (where I was born!) in Bishops Stortford closing it's A&E department - and the nearest is Harlow, 10 miles south. Consider then that Stansted Airport is next door to here - imagine if there was a large scale incident - and that Stansted is the designated "hijack incident" airport in the UK...
 
U

Uhyve

Member
Dan27 said:
Eh.. The nearest A&E to Huddersfield is Calderdale which is 7 miles away.. I remember my old local hospital (where I was born!) in Bishops Stortford closing it's A&E department - and the nearest is Harlow, 10 miles south. Consider then that Stansted Airport is next door to here - imagine if there was a large scale incident - and that Stansted is the designated "hijack incident" airport in the UK...
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I mean, I know I'm in a little village so we're not that important, but Huddersfield is is 10 miles from me and Calderdale is about 17 miles (gotta go through Huddersfield heh), if anything terrible ever happened during rush hour to me or a loved one, we're essentially dead. We had a fire not too long ago, let's just say we have a fire extinguisher now, essential services just don't seem to be a priority in the North (we threw the microwave out the front door and threw water at the on-fire cupboard, the fire brigade arrived 20 minutes later).
 
B

Beefy

Member
A new poll has suggested more Britons favour leaving the EU over staying in, with 45% supporting “Brexit” compared with 36% against, while a fifth remain undecided.

The YouGov poll for the Times was carried out in the two days after publication of an outline deal that David Cameron negotiated which could change the UK’s relationship with Brussels while keeping it within the European Union.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...it-but-a-fifth-undecided-yougov-poll-suggests
 
8

8bit

Knows the Score
Worth a read if you've a few minutes:

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...-know-about-cameron-s-eu-deal-in-five-minutes

This is all a nonsense isn't it?

Probably. You can look at it two ways: either the EU is so good at respecting subsidiarity that objections are very rarely made or it is so devious in preventing objections that hardly any are able to emerge. But either way, it's hard to see that this red card system will be significantly different to what already exists.
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Jezbollah

Jezbollah

Member
It's quite funny. This deal has some conflicting reactions to whoever it's presented to:

The UK: "it's nothing - it's a joke.."
EU leaders "nope, not having that - it's too much".

Whatever is being negotiated already has it's own identity crisis.
 
B

Beefy

Member
Dan27 said:
It's quite funny. This deal has some conflicting reactions to whoever it's presented to:

The UK: "it's nothing - it's a joke.."
EU leaders "nope, not having that - it's too much".

Whatever is being negotiated already has it's own identity crisis.
Click to expand...

Cameron is the out campaigns greatest PR.
 
Q

QuicheFontaine

Member
Uzzy said:
Reading about the infighting amongst the 'out' groups would be hilarious if it wasn't so depressing. Apparently now there's a chance that no group will be given the designation as the official 'out' campaign group, which would rather limit their ability to present their argument. Of course the papers can do it for them, but we can hardly expect the bloody Daily Mail to treat the debate with the seriousness it deserves.
Click to expand...

"You knuckleheads! I said we wanted "IN fighting", not infighting!"

But yeah that's sad
 
Nicktendo86

Nicktendo86

Member
Labour's position on Trident is an utter, utter mess. Can't wait to see what this defence review actually says.

By the way, read Tim Ross' Why the Tories Won the other day, was fascinating. Tried to read Dan Hodges One minute to Ten, was self indulgent utter crap. Couldn't get past the free sample.
 
W

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
Nicktendo86 said:
Labour's position on Trident is an utter, utter mess. Can't wait to see what this defence review actually says.

By the way, read Tim Ross' Why the Tories Won the other day, was fascinating. Tried to read Dan Hodges One minute to Ten, was self indulgent utter crap. Couldn't get past the free sample.
Click to expand...

Good shout. Dan Hodges is just awful.
 
K

Kuros

Member
Nicktendo86 said:
Labour's position on Trident is an utter, utter mess. Can't wait to see what this defence review actually says.

By the way, read Tim Ross' Why the Tories Won the other day, was fascinating. Tried to read Dan Hodges One minute to Ten, was self indulgent utter crap. Couldn't get past the free sample.
Click to expand...

They're completely fucked on it. Corbyn/Thornberry will not sanction it but the Unions will not stomach the loss of jobs hence we get the ludicrous "build the subs without the Nukes" and todays "well drones are going to make them obsolete" which Thornberry appears to have pulled out of thin air.

The Tory's will put the vote when they feel its going to cause most damage. It sounds like they might hold it back until after May as they don't even need the extra ammunition now.
 
U

Uzzy

Member
Kuros said:
They're completely fucked on it. Corbyn/Thornberry will not sanction it but the Unions will not stomach the loss of jobs hence we get the ludicrous "build the subs without the Nukes" and todays "well drones are going to make them obsolete" which Thornberry appears to have pulled out of thin air.

The Tory's will put the vote when they feel its going to cause most damage. It sounds like they might hold it back until after May as they don't even need the extra ammunition now.
Click to expand...

The 'drones will make them obsolete' rubbish is really stupid. Of course the technology to detect submarines will improve, it's been improving since WW1. The technology and doctrines to keep them hidden will keep improving too though.

There's not going to be a HMS Dreadnought moment that renders submarines obsolete. At least that's very unlikely.

Building the subs without nukes is actually far more reasonable. I mentioned previously in this thread that the Yanks converted some of their Ohio class submarines into guided missile carriers, with lots of tomahawks and even space for special forces. That could be an option. Probably a more useful one too.
 
W

Walshicus

Member
Kuros said:
They're completely fucked on it.
Click to expand...
I don't think so. We need the conventional capacity more than a token force of American controlled nukes.

I mean, I'm not against having an independent nuclear program... But let's not delude ourselves into thinking that's what Trident is.
 
K

Kuros

Member
Sir Fragula said:
I don't think so. We need the conventional capacity more than a token force of American controlled nukes.

I mean, I'm not against having an independent nuclear program... But let's not delude ourselves into thinking that's what Trident is.
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about the rights or wrongs of Trident more the fact that politically it it going to make them look terrible. It is going to cause huge issues when the vote comes.
 
K

kmag

Member
Kuros said:
They're completely fucked on it. Corbyn/Thornberry will not sanction it but the Unions will not stomach the loss of jobs hence we get the ludicrous "build the subs without the Nukes" and todays "well drones are going to make them obsolete" which Thornberry appears to have pulled out of thin air.

The Tory's will put the vote when they feel its going to cause most damage. It sounds like they might hold it back until after May as they don't even need the extra ammunition now.
Click to expand...

Actually the drone thing is kind of real, it's 20* years in the future, but the notion is that you'd have fleets of self guiding drones actively scanning and covering vast areas. Given sufficient numbers you could theoretically have extremely wide detection zones with enough drones. Nuclear subs are easier to detect than DE's due size and to the Nuclear subs cooling systems being relatively noisy.

The US already has the LDUUV undergoing testing http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=90932 which is a mission specific and relatively limited range and endurance drone sub.

and Darpa's ACTuv is already under testing as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACTUV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQB2oDwgd9k

both the LDUUV and ACTuv are designed for littoral operations but deep sea drones wil be incoming at somepoint. But ACTuv is essentially what Thornberry was probably talking about. The idea of active tracking of SSBN's during the Trident replacements lifecycle isn't beyond the realms of possibility at all, although other than the US or maybe the Chinese I doubt it would common and even then it wouldn't be early in the lifecycle.

*which probably means 30-40 years out
 
J

JonathanEx

Member
It's interesting. They really must be dedicated to getting their "7 day service" as they call it, though obviously terms and conditions apply to the correctness of that term.

Like, public opinion is well in the junior doctor's favour, and not just in liberaltwitterland, but in like, actual polls.

I see they're blaming the BMA for not wanting to negotiate, but I guess if the whole idea is terrible, why would you want to find something 'in the middle'?

Yes, what happens next?
 
Nicktendo86

Nicktendo86

Member
phisheep said:
Thank you for the recommendation. It's downloading to my kindle now.



I do suggest, though, reading the Independent's review of it.
Click to expand...

That review was fantastic.

Let me know what you think of the book!

Hunt had to impose the contract, he had no other option really. He's increasing basic pay by 13.5% instead of 11% as well and launching a review into morale which are obviously sweeteners but I don't think they will help much, I think we will have more strikes. All this talk of patient safety etc is a nonsense, there is just one last sticking point which is Saturday overtime. The Government won't budge on it and neither will the BMA so imposition is the only way out.
 
F

FlammableD

Banned
Kuros said:
There probably won't be mass resignations. Not to the point of it making a difference. People have to eat. There will be a lot more strikes though.

This is all building up to them wanting to renegotiate Consultants and GP's contracts later in the year to.

Clusterfuck.
Click to expand...

Where you're going to see it is in Uni enrolment numbers and new jr doctors coming in. Nose dive. It's already been happening.
 
phisheep

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Nicktendo86 said:
That review was fantastic.

Let me know what you think of the book!
Click to expand...

Will do. Though I picked up this one at the same time, and am having an uproarious time with it first.

Hunt had to impose the contract, he had no other option really. He's increasing basic pay by 13.5% instead of 11% as well and launching a review into morale which are obviously sweeteners but I don't think they will help much, I think we will have more strikes. All this talk of patient safety etc is a nonsense, there is just one last sticking point which is Saturday overtime. The Government won't budge on it and neither will the BMA so imposition is the only way out.
Click to expand...

Indeed. I'm getting rather fed up with the BMA. They've been digging in their heels against reform with governments of every flavour since about the 1920s, it isn't just a Tory thing or a Jeremy Hunt thing either, they just say "fuck you" to everybody.
 
P

Protome

Member
FlammableD said:
Where you're going to see it is in Uni enrolment numbers and new jr doctors coming in. Nose dive. It's already been happening.
Click to expand...

Uni enrolment numbers will probably stay similar, there's a lot of money to be made for junior doctors, just not in the UK. The biggest noticeable change in the near future will be more strikes, in a few years the number of new junior doctors will be practically non existent.
 
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