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[Pie and Beans]

They've never said "Fuck You" as loudly as they have now because there haven't been goddam Junior Doctor strikes beyond Jeremy Cunt's truly farcical reign so lets not pretend otherwise.

BMA is fighting against dirty tactics and absolute nutbags. "I'm getting fed up with the goodies not giving in to the baddies!"

Fuck man. You can have your side, but the junior doctor stuff is a bad deal all round. They do not want it, they know its unworkable, there is no debate.

 

[Jezbollah]

The thing is, according to his speech in Parliament, they came to an agreement on 90% of the points they negotiated. That in itself means there was an element of progressive thinking and discussion on both sides here - I'd really like to know what is the 10% they didn't agree on if there is so much vitriol going on.

 

[Beefy]

Google's UK chief has defended the search giant's tax arrangements in a hearing before MPs on the Commons Public Accounts Committee.

Matt Brittin said he understood public anger about the amount of tax it paid.
However, he said Google was paying 20% tax on its UK profits, not the 3% figure cited in some reports.

He was asked four times by Meg Hillier, chair of the Public Accounts Committee, how much he was paid. Mr Brittin said: "I don't have the figure, but I will happily provide it."

"You don't know what you get paid?" responded Ms Hillier.

"Out there, taxpayers, our constituents, are very angry, they live in a different world clearly to the world you live in, if you can't even tell us what you are paid."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-...=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter

About right.

 

[Kuros]

The thing is, according to his speech in Parliament, they came to an agreement on 90% of the points they negotiated. That in itself means there was an element of progressive thinking and discussion on both sides here - I'd really like to know what is the 10% they didn't agree on if there is so much vitriol going on.

I believe the red line is being rota'd on a Saturday without overtime.

 

[War Peaceman]

The thing is, according to his speech in Parliament, they came to an agreement on 90% of the points they negotiated. That in itself means there was an element of progressive thinking and discussion on both sides here - I'd really like to know what is the 10% they didn't agree on if there is so much vitriol going on.

My understanding is it is all to do with working Saturdays. The BMA want that to some extent counted as non-core hours whereas it is central to the govt's 7* day NHS.

 

[Kuros]

Google's UK chief has defended the search giant's tax arrangements in a hearing before MPs on the Commons Public Accounts Committee.

Matt Brittin said he understood public anger about the amount of tax it paid.
However, he said Google was paying 20% tax on its UK profits, not the 3% figure cited in some reports.

He was asked four times by Meg Hillier, chair of the Public Accounts Committee, how much he was paid. Mr Brittin said: "I don't have the figure, but I will happily provide it."

"You don't know what you get paid?" responded Ms Hillier.

"Out there, taxpayers, our constituents, are very angry, they live in a different world clearly to the world you live in, if you can't even tell us what you are paid."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-...=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter

About right.

I'm sure they're paying 20% on their UK income. The issue is that "license" a lot of their UK operations from Google in Ireland and thus funnel their profits through there. Same deal with Amazon and Luxembourg. And any other big company.

 

[Beefy]

I'm sure they're paying 20% on their UK income. The issue is the standard stuff where they license a lot of their UK operations from Google in Ireland and thus funnel their profits through there. Same deal with Amazon and Luxembourg. And any other big company.

I was more talking about him "not knowing" what he got paid

 

[Kuros]

I was more talking about him "not knowing" what he got paid

Hah yes i'm sure he's well aware of how much his pay packet is the little fibber.

Whoever the doctor was on five live a few minutes ago was not helping the BMA's cause. Apparently most people don't work flat rate on Saturdays.

Come on now.

 

[phisheep]

They've never said "Fuck You" as loudly as they have now because there haven't been goddam Junior Doctor strikes beyond Jeremy Cunt's truly farcical reign so lets not pretend otherwise.

BMA is fighting against dirty tactics and absolute nutbags. "I'm getting fed up with the goodies not giving in to the baddies!"

Fuck man. You can have your side, but the junior doctor stuff is a bad deal all round. They do not want it, they know its unworkable, there is no debate.

1945, Bevan, was probably worse.

 

[Daffy Duck]

Google's UK chief has defended the search giant's tax arrangements in a hearing before MPs on the Commons Public Accounts Committee.

Matt Brittin said he understood public anger about the amount of tax it paid.
However, he said Google was paying 20% tax on its UK profits, not the 3% figure cited in some reports.

He was asked four times by Meg Hillier, chair of the Public Accounts Committee, how much he was paid. Mr Brittin said: "I don't have the figure, but I will happily provide it."

"You don't know what you get paid?" responded Ms Hillier.

"Out there, taxpayers, our constituents, are very angry, they live in a different world clearly to the world you live in, if you can't even tell us what you are paid."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-...=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter

About right.

That's rich of a politician playing the constituant card.

 

[Nicktendo86]

The thing is, according to his speech in Parliament, they came to an agreement on 90% of the points they negotiated. That in itself means there was an element of progressive thinking and discussion on both sides here - I'd really like to know what is the 10% they didn't agree on if there is so much vitriol going on.

It is Saturday hours, the government say it should be classed mostly as a normal working day but the BMA says it should be classed as unsociable hours. The government won't budge as they say to pay more would deter hospitals from hiring more doctors on Saturday and thus defeat the purpose of the 7 day service.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I'm sure they're paying 20% on their UK income. The issue is that "license" a lot of their UK operations from Google in Ireland and thus funnel their profits through there. Same deal with Amazon and Luxembourg. And any other big company.

Personally I like Starbucks UK's "oh, we don't actually make any money. We have huge revenue, but the cost of buying the license to operate as a Starbucks from Starbucks Luxembourg is so large we actually make a loss. Therefore we need tax credits so that we don't shut down and see unemployment fall".

It baffles me why people give a shit about welfare frauds in comparison.

 

[Jezbollah]

I believe the red line is being rota'd on a Saturday without overtime.

My understanding is it is all to do with working Saturdays. The BMA want that to some extent counted as non-core hours whereas it is central to the govt's 7* day NHS.

It is Saturday hours, the government say it should be classed mostly as a normal working day but the BMA says it should be classed as unsociable hours. The government won't budge as they say to pay more would deter hospitals from hiring more doctors on Saturday and thus defeat the purpose of the 7 day service.

Cheers gents. Much appreciated.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

I honestly thought this was an Onion article when I first saw it :-

Jeremy Hunt has launched an urgent inquiry into the level of junior doctors’ morale and welfare as large numbers threaten to quit the profession over being forced to accept a new contract.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...uiry-into-junior-doctors-morale-a6867801.html

I wonder if Jeremy Cunt wakes up every morning, looks in the mirror and gives himself a little pep talk about how much more of a cunt he could be today.

 

[RedShift]

I honestly thought this was an Onion article when I first saw it :-



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...uiry-into-junior-doctors-morale-a6867801.html

I wonder if Jeremy Cunt wakes up every morning, looks in the mirror and gives himself a little pep talk about how much more of a cunt he could be today.

'The beatings will continue until morale improves'

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I honestly thought this was an Onion article when I first saw it :-



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...uiry-into-junior-doctors-morale-a6867801.html

I wonder if Jeremy Cunt wakes up every morning, looks in the mirror and gives himself a little pep talk about how much more of a cunt he could be today.

I'm sure there are several appropriate Dilbert strips for this situation.

Maybe this one?

Or maybe this?

Edit:

Just seen that the IMF reports that the UK deficit gap is worse than Greece. How??

 

[Pie and Beans]

Oh cool. Looks like Cunt lied about the support from NHS heads for his imposition:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/...etter-whatever-necessary-contracts-not-agreed

It's probably against the ethical doctors code, but I guess they have no choice now but to just kill the bastard since he's clearly never going to be deposed unless caught red-handed killing a room of babies.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Oh cool. Looks like Cunt lied about the support from NHS heads for his imposition:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/...etter-whatever-necessary-contracts-not-agreed

It's probably against the ethical doctors code, but I guess they have no choice now but to just kill the bastard since he's clearly never going to be deposed unless caught red-handed killing a room of babies.

You've gone fucking mental. Not agreeing with someone is fine and healthy for debate but when you actually wish death on someone, Jesus Christ.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Doing my flyby post because something happened in Lib Dem land: LDs will be arguing for legal cannabis starting from after March conference - the first major party (major-ish atm) to be arguing for it in the UK, afaik.

Motion has to be debated and passed at conference but it's the goddamn Lib Dem hairshirt and flipflop membership, and any member who shows can vote thanks to constitution changes last year. It might just get passed via obvious assent.

It's a long hoped for policy by the LD membership, and I expect the emotion of the day will lead to many red eyes in the chamber...

(No link on hand, it's on the Guardian website).

Also: Indie basically closing = boo
Jeremy Hunt in general = chuck in sea.

*whooshes off back to LD land*

 

[kmag]

I'm sure there are several appropriate Dilbert strips for this situation.

Maybe this one?

Or maybe this?

Edit:

Just seen that the IMF reports that the UK deficit gap is worse than Greece. How??

Oil price collapse, George's march of the makers turning into a baatan death march and most of our 'recovery' being another debt and house price fuelled sham.

 

[ruttyboy]

You've gone fucking mental. Not agreeing with someone is fine and healthy for debate but when you actually wish death on someone, Jesus Christ.

The irony here being that the BMA are saying that JH's actions are wishing death on plenty of people.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Oil price collapse, George's march of the makers turning into a baatan death march and most of our 'recovery' being another debt and house price fuelled sham.

Slightly off-topic, but I'm looking to buy right now and I keep being told, from various sources, that this is a great time to buy a house. But the prices just seem ridiculous (South West England), and all of these house buying websites have a feature that shows the price of the house last time it was sold - it's always just a few years ago, and tens of thousands of pounds less!

Is this another "bubble"? It feels like a complete con that I'll be buying into. I don't want to buy a house that ends up being worth much less a few years down the line.

I mean, what's it come to when the top prize on Deal or No Deal barely gets you there? :-(

Edit:

For clarity, I didn't win DoND. That's just my yardstick for "a lot of money".

 

[Jezbollah]

I have to say. After spending a lot of the past 24 hours looking at historical news reports (going back to 1997) it's quite interesting to see the BMA's approach for any kind of negotiation with the resident government be as consistent as it is.

 

[War Peaceman]

I have to say. After spending a lot of the past 24 hours looking at historical news reports (going back to 1997) it's quite interesting to see the BMA's approach for any kind of negotiation with the resident government be as consistent as it is.

It coincides with a succession of fuckwit governments with no clue how to effectively reorganise the NHS

 

[ruttyboy]

Slightly off-topic, but I'm looking to buy right now and I keep being told, from various sources, that this is a great time to buy a house. But the prices just seem ridiculous (South West England), and all of these house buying websites have a feature that shows the price of the house last time it was sold - it's always just a few years ago, and tens of thousands of pounds less!

Is this another "bubble"? It feels like a complete con that I'll be buying into. I don't want to buy a house that ends up being worth much less a few years down the line.

I mean, what's it come to when the top prize on Deal or No Deal barely gets you there? :-(

Edit:

For clarity, I didn't win DoND. That's just my yardstick for "a lot of money".

The only way to guarantee not to 'lose' when buying a house is to buy it and live in it until you die.

IMHO we are already in another bubble. And we will never stop creating a new one after the last one popped until the government does something drastic to make houses affordable again. Which of course will never happen as that would be political suicide.

Kind of related, I realised the other day that I'm totally screwed. Being one of the generation that has had to basically divert any spare cash to save for 20 years to be able to get on the property ladder at all, pension wise I'm fucked.

I could never possibly earn enough in the time remaining to make enough contributions to retire on anything other than a paltry (<£10k a year) pension. Which of course, paltry as it is, will by the time I retire be enough to exclude me from any state pension (if it exists at all by then). So if I try to save for a pension I'm bound for poverty, if I don't, the same. Even if I own my house, it's not like it will do me any good as I'll be living in it.

And the kicker is, as pathetic as my prospects are, they're still better than a lot of people in this country my age. If you're even younger than I am, and aren't lucky enough to inherit wealth (or property), then the outlook is even bleaker.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Independant is dead as a print newspaper:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35561145

 

[Jezbollah]

It coincides with a succession of fuckwit governments with no clue how to effectively reorganise the NHS

That is indeed another consistent I noticed as well

 

[phisheep]

I have to say. After spending a lot of the past 24 hours looking at historical news reports (going back to 1997) it's quite interesting to see the BMA's approach for any kind of negotiation with the resident government be as consistent as it is.

It goes back a lot further than that. More than a century. They damn nearly scuppered the very first National Health Insurance Bill in 1911 for example, and pretty well everything else since.

It coincides with a succession of fuckwit governments with no clue how to effectively reorganise the NHS

Unless you think that all governments since 1911 are fuckwits, then it looks more like we have a fuckwit BMA. And the NHS would be a lot easier to manage and organise were it not for their intervention in 1945.

 

[Kuros]

Independant is dead as a print newspaper:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35561145

Guardian will be next once it has burned through their trust reserves. Their "Supporter" program just hasn't worked. I would expect a paywall soon enough.

 

[Kuros]

The only way to guarantee not to 'lose' when buying a house is to buy it and live in it until you die.

IMHO we are already in another bubble. And we will never stop creating a new one after the last one popped until the government does something drastic to make houses affordable again. Which of course will never happen as that would be political suicide.

Kind of related, I realised the other day that I'm totally screwed. Being one of the generation that has had to basically divert any spare cash to save for 20 years to be able to get on the property ladder at all, pension wise I'm fucked.

I could never possibly earn enough in the time remaining to make enough contributions to retire on anything other than a paltry (<£10k a year) pension. Which of course, paltry as it is, will by the time I retire be enough to exclude me from any state pension (if it exists at all by then). So if I try to save for a pension I'm bound for poverty, if I don't, the same. Even if I own my house, it's not like it will do me any good as I'll be living in it.

And the kicker is, as pathetic as my prospects are, they're still better than a lot of people in this country my age. If you're even younger than I am, and aren't lucky enough to inherit wealth (or property), then the outlook is even bleaker.

My wife and I bought our house for 165k in 2012. It's now worth 198k. And that's outside Cardiff so no crazy Londoness. Absolutely bonkers but the higher valuation got us onto a great remortgage as we got into the 25% equity band. We shall ride it while we can but it will not last.

We wouldn't have got on the housing ladder in if we were buying now as the prices have risen so much compared to wages.

 

[War Peaceman]

Unless you think that all governments since 1911 are fuckwits, then it looks more like we have a fuckwit BMA. And the NHS would be a lot easier to manage and organise were it not for their intervention in 1945.

Well I was directly responding to Dan's post, not commenting more broadly about the BMA/governments!

As for their past conduct, it is hardly relevant, given that I would say they are largely in the right, with the DFH prioritising a slavish desire to get a 7 day NHS over the needs of their already stretched junior doctor workforce. Working Saturday's should necessitate higher pay because work isn't and shouldn't be their lives.

 

[Jezbollah]

My wife and I bought our house for 165k in 2012. It's now worth 198k. And that's outside Cardiff so no crazy Londoness. Absolutely bonkers but the higher valuation got us onto a great remortgage as we got into the 25% equity band. We shall ride it while we can but it will not last.

We wouldn't have got on the housing ladder in if we were buying now as the prices have risen so much compared to wages.

I moved into my current house in August. Two bedroom terrace, in a nice location in Uttlesford, Essex. I bought this place for £267k. I have not done anything much with this place (I am currently saving to put a conservatory on it). Just the other day, I saw a similar end terrace house (exactly the same build) but with a slightly bigger back garden go on the market for £295k. It sold within a few days.

This kind of stuff isnt going to slow until interest rates increase (amongst other factors) and I dont see that happening in a long time..

 

[Nicktendo86]

Well I was directly responding to Dan's post, not commenting more broadly about the BMA/governments!

As for their past conduct, it is hardly relevant, given that I would say they are largely in the right, with the DFH prioritising a slavish desire to get a 7 day NHS over the needs of their already stretched junior doctor workforce. Working Saturday's should necessitate higher pay because work isn't and shouldn't be their lives.

The thing that gets me though is as soon as the Tories said they wanted a 7 day NHS the BMA said "nope, can't be done". Not oh, it will be difficult but we will work with the government to find a solution that benefits patients and our members, oh no. It was nope, not happening. They were immediately confrontational.

As for overstretched doctors, I agree which is why I'm so confused. The new contract reduces the maximum number of hours a junior doctor can do, in fact the only ones set to lose money are those currently working unsafe hours and so will have hours cut. Surely that's a good thing?

As for should get paid more on Saturday, why? Police aren't. Firemen aren't. I wouldn't be when I work overtime weekends.


Edit: fact check article about hours.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck

 

[kmag]

The thing that gets me though is as soon as the Tories said they wanted a 7 day NHS the BMA said "nope, can't be done". Not oh, it will be difficult but we will work with the government to find a solution that benefits patients and our members, oh no. It was nope, not happening. They were immediately confrontational.

As for overstretched doctors, I agree which is why I'm so confused. The new contract reduces the maximum number of hours a junior doctor can do, in fact the only ones set to lose money are those currently working unsafe hours and so will have hours cut. Surely that's a good thing?

As for should get paid more on Saturday, why? Police aren't. Firemen aren't. I wouldn't be when I work overtime weekends.

The Tories didn't say we want a 7 day NHS (it is actually already 7 days for most junior doctors, it's the non emergency specialities consultants who don't really that much weekend work although they tend to be on call), they said we want a 7 day NHS without paying any more for it than we were already going to put in (which is already nowhere near enough). Which simply isn't going to work now is it? You're going to take an already stretched service which provides 7 day emergency care and 5 day non emergency care and try make it provide 7 day emergency care and 7 day non emergency care without any real additional investment. I believe the term is shuffling deckchairs on the titanic.

Not even Osborne and the ONS can make that add up.

As to the point about Police and Firemen, frankly Doctors train longer and harder and have more in-demand transferable skills. There's already a morale crisis without the whole congrats you're now all going to be rota'd on the weekends regardless of demand. There's all ready a recruitment crisis so real smart to impose a contract non of them want to a body of professionals who frankly wouldn't find it hard to work. The dig about their lack of vocation was a real class act by Hunt. Given the training cost, the certification costs, insurance and the number of hours worked I doubt that many Juniors are pulling much more than the minimum wage per hour for the first 4 years. They could all pretty much earn more per hour for less hassle teaching science or pushing paper for some corp. You're talking about a profession where you start at £21,000 a year after 7 years at uni and are expected to work at least a 48 hour week.

But hey it'll be capitalism in action. Skilled labour tends not to be dictated to when their skills are in shortage.

 

[Nicktendo86]

I agree with a lot of what you say kmag, doctors have an incredibly important job and deserve to be treated right. My contention is with their union which I feel has been confrontational and spoiling for a fight no matter what and have intentionally mislead, such as with their pay calculator saying there would be a 30% pay cut which they have since removed.

The government have not great either, I need to say. Both sides have played this very badly.

 

[It's Reyn Time!]

You've gone fucking mental. Not agreeing with someone is fine and healthy for debate but when you actually wish death on someone, Jesus Christ.

When your actions directly result in avoidable deaths and you still go ahead with them for personal or financial gain then yeah, you should probably die. I see nothing wrong with wishing death upon him. Shit, I'd probably help if given the chance.

 

[kmag]

I agree with a lot of what you say kmag, doctors have an incredibly important job and deserve to be treated right. My contention is with their union which I feel has been confrontational and spoiling for a fight no matter what and have intentionally mislead, such as with their pay calculator saying there would be a 30% pay cut which they have since removed.

The government have not great either, I need to say. Both sides have played this very badly.

You're right, but I fear for provision if juniors up and leave and right or wrong the rank and file are fucking spitting blood and there's so many other options for them. In fact any ST3 or ST4 who doesn't seriously consider going to NZ needs their heads examined, far better work/life balance, additional training costs covered. Really attractive resettlement terms especially if you head somewhere semi rural. Australia much the same.

I should point out have a number of relatives who are Juniors albeit mostly in Scotland. My cousin and his fiancée work as juniors in Luton and they're leaving for NZ once they're married. Had the interviews and everything. He said there would be an imposition and they'd not hang around for it. The removal of pay protection means it's simply not worth it if they want to start a family.

 

[Nicktendo86]

I thought pay protection was staying for three years at least? Forgive me if I'm thinking if something else!

Will be very interesting to see what the leaving stats look like after this contract businesses over. It seems, looking from the outside, there has been resentment bubbling away for a while and they need to get to the root causes.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I moved into my current house in August. Two bedroom terrace, in a nice location in Uttlesford, Essex. I bought this place for £267k. I have not done anything much with this place (I am currently saving to put a conservatory on it). Just the other day, I saw a similar end terrace house (exactly the same build) but with a slightly bigger back garden go on the market for £295k. It sold within a few days.

This kind of stuff isnt going to slow until interest rates increase (amongst other factors) and I dont see that happening in a long time..

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I see a place that's had nothing done to it go up by £30k in a couple of years, and I just KNOW that's going to stop as soon as I buy.

 

[CCS]

On leaving: anecdotal as all hell, but all of the med students I've talked to at uni are at least considering going abroad, and several of them have specifically said that if the contract changes go through they'll look for work in a different country. If the government doesn't back down I suspect we may see a serious lack of junior doctors in 5-10 years time.

 

[Protome]

On leaving: anecdotal as all hell, but all of the med students I've talked to at uni are at least considering going abroad, and several of them have specifically said that if the contract changes go through they'll look for work in a different country. If the government doesn't back down I suspect we may see a serious lack of junior doctors in 5-10 years time.

This isn't a new thing, junior doctors simply have better hours and pay abroad and a significant number of them leave the country when they can. This contract change is idiotic largely because this is already an issue and Hunts solution is "Let's make their work opportunities shittier."

 

[CCS]

This isn't a new thing, junior doctors simply have better hours and pay abroad and a significant number of them leave the country when they can. This contract change is idiotic largely because this is already an issue and Hunts solution is "Let's make their work opportunities shittier."

Yeah, if I was a medic there's no chance I'd want to put up with the shit junior doctors in this country have to put up with.

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

This isn't a new thing, junior doctors simply have better hours and pay abroad and a significant number of them leave the country when they can. This contract change is idiotic largely because this is already an issue and Hunts solution is "Let's make their work opportunities shittier."

Given the man co-wrote a book in which he said he wanted to privatise the NHS, I doubt it's idiocy

 

[Uzzy]

On leaving: anecdotal as all hell, but all of the med students I've talked to at uni are at least considering going abroad, and several of them have specifically said that if the contract changes go through they'll look for work in a different country. If the government doesn't back down I suspect we may see a serious lack of junior doctors in 5-10 years time.

They'll just have to hire more foreign doctors to make up the shortfall. Can't see any Conservative voter or media having problems with foreigners taking British jobs.

 

[Pie and Beans]

14 of the 20 NHS Chiefs have come out against the letter Hunt used as the basis for his imposition and now Chief Whip's junior doctor daughter calls for Hunt to be sacked.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tory-former-chief-whips-junior-7359501

"He continues to misuse research to support his arguments. He has been told the statistics he uses are not correct, meaning he is either dishonest or stupid, I don&#8217;t know which is worse."

Brutal. Doesn't matter though. Apparently this government were elected as Godkings and thus don't have to be held accountable at any stage for massive incompetence if not wilful sabotage.

But, while him being sacked for deliberately misleading parliament doesn't seem to be kicking in quite yet, he did have to cancel a circle jerk evening due to junior doctors managing to swipe some invites:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-hunt-meet-greet-drinks-7356270
I'm sure he can keep ducking down side corridors until the Health Service he is supposed to lead stops daring to approach and question him.

 

[Nicktendo86]

now Chief Whip's junior doctor daughter calls for Hunt to be sacked.

Former chief whip

 

[Nicktendo86]

Westminster voting intention:
CON: 41% (+1)
LAB: 27% (-2)
UKIP: 15% (-1)
LDEM: 9% (+2)
GRN: 3% (-)
(via ComRes online)

 

[CyclopsRock]

I'm amazed this debate is still flowing. I'm sure that if this was 2014 or 2019, Cam (or whoever) would have grabbed him and said "do whatever, give in, just fucking get it off the news". As it stands, I guess no one's actually gonna give a shit about this in 4 years when they vote so it might as well absorb the news cycle. So I suppose I'm not amazed? I dunno. I have a Ham-baby inside me. My girlfriend has gone away for a few weeks and I just cooked a 5.7lb ham for myself. Ugh ugh ugh .

Edit: The ham was to eat, to avoid any doubt.

 

[Uzzy]

Do we think Cameron will get his EU deal in the next 24 hours? And more importantly, do we have the Brexit OT ready to go if he does?

 

[SuperBowser]

The government have not great either, I need to say. Both sides have played this very badly.

I'm a junior doctor and have followed this debacle closely for the past 12 months. Ultimately, the Department of Health and Jeremy Hunt have continued to use false statistics, mix up basic facts and make demeaning statements.Studies quoted do not have relevance to what the government claims, but they continue repeating them.

Jeremy Hunt talks about reducing deaths in the weekend while simultaneously talking about routine (NOT EMERGENCY) care in the same sentence. He talks about increasing numbers of doctors in the weekend without reducing doctors in the weekdays or increasing hours or reducing pay or acknowledging we are already an overstretched and underfunded workforce. A 15 year old could confidently look at this situation and tell you the Maths doesn't add up. You can't offer more services without more resources. The doctors' union have not been confrontational - they simply state plain facts. I feel the BMA have been incredibly compromising in the face of wilful lies and stupidity.

I can say for a fact my goodwill is already lost. I'm dismayed at how my profession has been treated by the press and government. We are not asking for more money; we ask our working conditions do not worsen. Regardless of the outcome, I no longer plan to stay in England in the long term. I've worked hard all my life and continue to work hard in my job. I often stay extra hours. But I'm not a mindless slave. I am done with the NHS once I finish training. One quarter of my friends already left the UK with no intention to return before this contract debate (UK's working conditions are already bad). Half will leave within 2 years if the new contract is imposed.