demented waffle
Gold Member
Yes, you're saying that people could be a problem hypothetically, there for they shouldn't have a right to protest. China(oops UK) must be giving you mucho social points.
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UK's so-called "grooming gangs" get international attention
- Thread starter EviLore
- Start date
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
If your ideology cannot withstand criticism without silencing it, you should rethink your ideology.
Why? because I hadn't heard of that satire site and believed it to be a real tweet? Because I believe that the UK police force try to maintain peace and do their jobs well but might make some mistakes too?
There you go with the strawman again. Where did I say people can't protest? Show me. You're downright illiterate at this point. I wasn't the one who said people shouldn't have a right to protest. Somebody else called the protestors "the problem" due to assuming they would be the one who will break the law in the hypothetical provocation that the police was trying to avoid. I've never said people aren't allowed to protest. Not once. You could be from China for all I know but I'm going to guess that you're American judging the UK, oh sorry "Europe" as you called it.
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demented waffle
Gold Member
Here and here? God forbid they do something hypothetically. Put down the candy and watch little nigel go.
What is so difficult to understand about those words? I'm really struggling to help you understand at this point.
demented waffle
Gold Member
I understand your bootlicking just fine. Do you?
Didn't expect an actual intelligent response. Like playing chess with a pigeon. Have a good night.
For those who actually understand English here is the full quote of what was said:
This isn't saying people aren't allowed to protest but you do you.
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demented waffle
Gold Member
Because what you meant by people getting fines for speech was...
BlackTron
Member
It would not be difficult to detect that the site was satire even without clicking on it, but to be fair, real life in the UK is so close to satire now you could be forgiven for glossing over it.
Your attitude appears to be supportive of police policy, in excess of individual police officers. I'll say I'm not envious of police who are counseled and expected by superiors to thread this line between policing and shitting the bed. That's about the kindest thing I can say. If UK cops are "just doing their jobs", then they were not given the correct job to do, because kids are getting raped, while they try to evade punishing the crime.
Yes, the UK Police officers are doing great at their job of ignoring child rape for decades. "made some mistakes too"
Yes I'm supportive of the laws and the work the police do. This doesn't mean negligence and misconduct are excused either. I went to that site thinking it was news of a real event. Tried to find what had occured and it didn't show what meme was posted to make my own judgment. hate speech exists as a law so assumed it could possibly be that and said it's a shame there is no info. I didn't know it was all made up to begin with even though I sensed the writing and reporting was completely substandard I didn't detect it was satire.
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BlackTron
Member
I realize this can be generally true, but you are responding to a post where I stated:
Which, as we know from the context of this thread, is not sarcastic and is indeed a job they do, which they're excelling at.
Are you being serious right now?
demented waffle
Gold Member
They're doing an excellent job of protecting people's feelings tho. Those little girls be damned. It's all about cohesiveness.
People are really mixing up arguments here. I've not said that the police did a great job on the rape case and understand that officers involved did a poor job. I only ever discussed the investigation of a complaint by Fiona Sharpe and how that is them doing a good job of not ignoring a reported possible offence. I even said advocating that the police should ignore possible offences is possibly what got us here (as in the rapes being ignored) in the first place.
The old proverb two wrongs don't make a right come to mind.
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Tams
Member
Okay, let's focus on Sharpe, even if it is off-topic.
Hatfield retweeted a tweet by Caplin. Sharpe complained about that to the police, but not about the original tweet by Caplin.
There issues are these:
- If Hatfield's retweet was breaking the law, then so would Caplin's. Yet Caplin is not being investigated about this.
- I think we can assume that the original tweet was very lewd, but not breaking the law.
- The police should have been able to determine that Hatfield did no wrong without having to resort to interviewing him.
Artoris
Gold Member
"The old proverb two wrongs don't make a right come to mind."
vile reasoning I would expect from some one with zero morals like the gangs
BlackTron
Member
Fair enough, but the juxtaposition of your argument the police did a good job here, against the backdrop of the thread being about the police failing child rape victims, came off strangely.
Your take appears to show a lack of critical thinking. Police turn a blind eye to rape for decades; there is obviously something intentional and systemic about it. Meanwhile, someone republishes a public tweet and has to answer to the cops; there is obviously something intentional and overbearing about it. It points directly to a system that does not protect its citizens, that you can take advantage of to fuck with anyone you don't like. Who decides what is "causing a disturbance"? The person making the complaint, apparently. Police should have at least enough brain cells to make a call on what's worth investigating. For clarity, the accused did not write this tweet. He simply republished it. It was already public. Imagine if I posted your tweet here, then a lady called me out on it and then the cops showed up at my house. Well they aren't allowed to solve real crimes, so this is really the level of pathetic shit going down. Dude it's a screenshotted tweet. Get a grip.
Moving back to earlier in the thread, yeah defamation is a civil matter here. In other words someone lies about you, you have to prove it to get damages. The government doesn't just threaten you with jail for allegedly saying something a random person took issue with. 2nd world. Feel bad for the UK gaffers worried about getting out.
What law did the original tweet break and was it legitimate? If it broke the same law then somebody can file a complaint just the same. Fiona Sharpe may have had other motives but who was the original tweet harrasing? I'm not sure.
The issue is that people are bringing up war protests and "certain citizens" having more rights (still not sure who those certain citizens are) when it had nothing to do with the Sharpe, Hatfield and Ivor Case. Who are the certain citizens? Jewish people? Caplin has been arrested not just "interviewed" what crime is he not being investigated for? If you think he committed another one with the tweet people can report it. Don't be glad if it were to get ignored though. Saying the police shouldn't have investigated a complaint doesn't make any sense.
How? Are you privy to what Sharpe might have filed against him? They interviewed him and it seems like no further action was taken against him but he's making a mountain out of a molehill by suggesting he may be sentenced to 5 years. They shouldn't have just assumed Hatfield did no wrong though. Based on what? Maybe Fiona Sharpe was claiming the screenshots were fakes created by Hatfield and after investigation found they weren't? Why would they assume Hatfield did no wrong without actually investigating?
There is no lack of critical thinking. The police did a poor job but it doesn't mean they also need to do a poor job of investigating any other complaints. Even if nothing comes of it.
Yes, the person making the complaint gets listened to usually but the police don't assume you're guilty without investigation. At least that is the theory. There are shit cops and good cops. you can accuse all cops in the US of "systemic racism" too but it doesn't make it true. There are those doing their job as best they can even if it's some "pathetic shit" law. Just because some other cop might have failed to do theirs properly on a big case it doesn't mean the entire force is shit. I'm sorry but I can't agree with that.
Nobody was threatened with jailtime. The police did an interview under caution to investigate whatever complaint Sharpe had filed for Ivor to get Hatfields side of it. After it nothing came of it meaning they considered that Sharpe had nothing or was in fact incorrect on whatever she filed. That's the end of that matter for everyone except Ivor who is still under arrest. People like rhetoric though like "3rd world" and anti-islam off topic discussion, and "shit police force". Making it seem like the sky is falling. How many times did the police fail with Epstien until they eventually got him? Is the US third world too.
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BlackTron
Member
There must be a point at which a complaint becomes facetious to you. Where would it be? I say that just to demonstrate that this point has to exist. By virtue of the fact that it exists, you can no longer say every complaint should be investigated. So it becomes a question of where we believe their judgement should go on the scale, from "investigates an ant stealing a shred of cheese" to "so lax it's anarchy".
Now that we have established that we have to actually choose a level here, we can't just say "ALLOFTHEM.GIF", where do we put it? Well here's my question, what is there about a screenshot of someone else's tweet that indicates any wrongdoing occurred?
Uh, because you don't want to live in a police state where you have to deal with cops asking you questions because someone may or may not have claimed something was photoshopped? This can obviously be weaponized for harassment, if the bar is that low. You should require a pretty healthy bar to interview someone over old republished tweets and a very low bar to investigate child rape. But we have the inverse situation. According to you, they must have concluded Sharpe was "incorrect" in her filing. The net result is that Sharpe sent the cops to Hatfield because he posted something she didn't like, thereby weaponizing the police. Worst case he gets a bad experience, best case he says something that implicates himself badly in another way and the cops have yet another thing to keep them busy while kids get raped.
Just imagine if the cops did interviews for rape perpetrators as fast as tweet screenshotters. Now wouldn't that be something. Saying good job, in this context, is just exasperating tone deafness.
Edit: BTW this isn't a great topic for whataboutism. I don't believe in making this a "contest" of who was worse because it's all trash. But when random Muslim guy #250,000 quips "I'll just play the race card", yeah that's the same as the dude who flew rich clients to an island till finally getting caught. Our police failed to catch the loaded guy with connections and island for a while, sure, but at least it was framed as an actual failure. Over in the UK, the government made the decision intentionally for the police not to do anything, and they're properly doing their job of that, not failing at it.
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Again I nor you are privy to the complaint filed. For all I know she could have tried to frame the complaint as hate speech.
Yes but how many times has somebody weaponised the police force? How many times have people swatted somebody's house? sometimes with lethal consequence. Is it the police's fault in these instances that they investigated a possible offence and didn't ignore it based on the fact that it might be totally made up to harass? Sure call the initial person making frivolous claims out. Don't blame the police for investigating a report. Especially for something so mundane as an interview to get his side of an allegation.
And they normally do. Failure and misconduct in this instance doesn't mean other possible crimes should be ignored. I said good job for not ignoring the complaint and not actually sentencing anybody in the communications act case to the fictitious "5 years" and that nothing wrong has really happened on the part of the police force in that particular investigation. One is not related to the other. You can't say why are you investigating smaller crimes when they failed on a bigger crime. Why are they incorrectly swatting peoples houses when Epstien was about, why are they incorrectly swatting peoples houses when terrorist successfully do other things. People fail, they're not the same people, they're not the same crimes. You don't ignore one because of the other due to some scale.
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Tams
Member
Sorry, but the majority of police forces failed to promptly and thoroughly investigate child rape gangs.
They also tell you that thefts aren't worth bothering persuing as they won't investigate them, just file them away.
But they will persue people post stuff they don't like, because those are easy 'crimes' to persue.
When there is unrest, they let it cause quite a bit of damage before they get it under control. And even then, they send officers who are so inappropriate for the role that they get kung-fu kicked to the ground.
The police in the UK can get fucked.
AfricanKing
Banned
Yeah dont think you got an actual answer to this..
Tommy Robinson is football hooligan who had a ton of past convictions - below are just a few.
2005: Jailed for assault occasioning actual bodily harm (12 months)
2011: Community order for football brawl (12 months)
2013: Travelling on another man's passport to the USA (jailed for 10 months)
2014: Mortgage fraud (jailed for 18 months)
May 2017: Contempt of Court finding, three months jail suspended for 18 months
July 2019: Jailed for nine months for interfering with a grooming gang trial in Leeds.
July 2021: Loses defamation case and ordered to pay Syrian refugee £100,000
July 2024: Fails to attend Contempt of Court hearing for allegedly repeating false claims about the refugee
Other offences: Possession of drugs, threatening behaviour and breach of court order
In 2009 he founds the EDL which is your typical anti Islam group , far right etc.. the members being from a now defunct nationalist group called the BNP and other football hooligans. The issue with grooming gangs was highlighted by Tommy for many years but he was not the one to actually expose them.
The reason his in prison now is for a completely unrelated issue - He made lots of false claims about a Syrian boy calling him a bully in regards to a incident that happened with him and some white class mates. He went on to make a documentary from it , the boys family sue him for defamation and it goes to court where the Judge pretty much ripped Tommy to shreds as it turns out the Boy was the victim of bully for many years and was the victim but the bully was not race based - just kids being kids really. You can read the case summary here
Tommy loses in court and is ordered to pay the boys family 100k and is told to stop spreading the lies around or he will go back to jail for contempt of court - he continues to spread the lies and the court recalls him and sentences him to 18 months in jail. He also pleaded guilty - that's why his in prison now. Good messenger , wrong mouth
Kier on the other hand had a more important role, during the time 2008 -13 Kier was the head of the CPS. This is the Crown Persecution service which overseas all criminal convictions in the country. Before the police charge you with a crime the CPS evaluate the case and give the charging order if it meets the legal threshold. Most grooming cases where not given charging orders because the CPS at the lower level kept on denying that they met the threshold and the Police where conducting poorly lead investigations.
In 2011 Andrew Norfolk who worked at The Times looked into it and did a investigative piece on Grooming gangs - this is when the scandal went public. Andrew then contacted Nazir Afzal who was a prosecutor for the CPS at the time to ask him why no one had been prosecuted properly. Nazir goes to Kier who was head of the CPS to look into this - Kier then tells Nazir to appeal the decisions the CPS has made and to start prosecutions.
If a case is denied at the lower level of the CPS , The head (Kier) doesn't know and it wont cross his table. So he makes institutional changes to the CPS and lowered the threshold for grooming gang charges and Nazir Afzal gets the first grooming gang charges.
The News Agents did a Podcast with Andrew a few days ago where he basically talks about the whole situation - its worth a listen
https://www.globalplayer.com/podcasts/episodes/7DroPn9/
Also Tams did a really good breakdown on how parliament works in regards to the amendments with the national inquiry.
We had a inquiry 3 years ago in the Jay Report and it highlighted many failings across the Police, CPS and successive governments , it listed a 22 changes that must be made. The conservative government at the time did not implement any of these changes. The current Labour government has been implementing these changes and has said they will implement them all. Which is why they don't want to do another inquiry because the last one was ignored and no changes happened. Report is linked below
The Report of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse
A report of the Inquiry Panel Professor Alexis Jay OBE Professor Sir Malcolm Evans KCMG OBE Ivor Frank Drusilla Sharpling CBE
www.iicsa.org.uk
The misunderstanding in a nutshell:
When the government decides what is true and arrests you when you say something they don’t like, that’s an Orwellian dystopia police state, not free speech.
The whole concept of free speech is that the government doesn’t control you. You don’t need free speech when you’re aligned with what the government wants you to say. It’s precisely when you aren’t that free speech matters.
When the government decides what is true and arrests you when you say something they don’t like, that’s an Orwellian dystopia police state, not free speech.
The whole concept of free speech is that the government doesn’t control you. You don’t need free speech when you’re aligned with what the government wants you to say. It’s precisely when you aren’t that free speech matters.
AfricanKing
Banned
Its not about Governments arresting you for things they don't like as oppose to them shutting down absolute dis/mis information from being spread.
You can spread misinformation that is objectively false but harmless like being a flat earther - but the line is crossed when potential harm can be done when misinformation spreads.
For example, let’s say you, the government, have an uncomfortable mass child rape scandal that you’re not dealing with very well. Pesky Americans won’t stop signal boosting it.
First, pass a law that makes “Islamophobia” illegal on the grounds that it is hate speech. Then, classify talking about the scandal in any clear terms as Islamophobia. Problem solved.
Americans view this with incredulity and contempt, rightly so. Life as a feudal serf.
First, pass a law that makes “Islamophobia” illegal on the grounds that it is hate speech. Then, classify talking about the scandal in any clear terms as Islamophobia. Problem solved.
Americans view this with incredulity and contempt, rightly so. Life as a feudal serf.
Dr.Morris79
Gold Member
.
Yeah, it's real
I honestly can't believe I live in this country.
Jesus christ. I had to look that up as it couldn't be realFor example, let’s say you, the government, have an uncomfortable mass child rape scandal that you’re not dealing with very well. Pesky Americans won’t stop signal boosting it.
First, pass a law that makes “Islamophobia” illegal on the grounds that it is hate speech. Then, classify talking about the scandal in any clear terms as Islamophobia. Problem solved.
Americans view this with incredulity and contempt, rightly so. Life as a feudal serf.
Yeah, it's real
I honestly can't believe I live in this country.
Cyberpunkd
Member
We are never going to agree on this, since the disagreement between US and Europe on free speech is a philosophical one. My opinion - Europe does have free speech, but also has consequences of such speech, whereas the US doesn't. John Stewart summed it perfectly when he made a joke: "Is your mother a whore? I'm just asking questions here!".
As a European I can say I find American approach extremely simplistic, primitive even.
Also obligatory mention that US doesn't recognise Holocaust denial as a crime, which is the very definition of spreading lies (unless you are a Holocaust denier and will say those rail tracks were way too small to carry so many people to gas chambers).
From the place with legally mandated attached bottle caps, the highest of compliments.
Dr.Morris79
Gold Member
Cyberpunkd
Member
That shit gets in your face all the time. Still not as beta as Germany's pfand machines where you put the bottles in order to get a small paper with a discount amount.
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Kacho
Gold Member
Donald mac Ronald
Member
To my fellow Brits and Europeans stop with the tribalism in this thread, thinking your country is being insulted or needs defending from Americans.
The public don't need laws to protect us from 'dangerous' misinformation or hate speech laws. Misinformation is just the latest garbage they cry about because they don't like people openly discussing taboo topics.
I can't speak for all of Europe, but the UK government has shown clearly what it thinks is the 'truth' we have to listen to. Anything that doesn't fit the their narrative or the mainstream media narrative is deemed misinformation or a far right narrative. Then they are more than happy to have the police arrest and charge people for it.
UK government hates the fact that normal people are rejecting mainstream media which they control for open platforms that they can't control. Funny how they see it as a threat. Don't want the plebs to openly discuss the failure of the multicultural project or that the police let kids be raped for 20 years.
The public don't need laws to protect us from 'dangerous' misinformation or hate speech laws. Misinformation is just the latest garbage they cry about because they don't like people openly discussing taboo topics.
I can't speak for all of Europe, but the UK government has shown clearly what it thinks is the 'truth' we have to listen to. Anything that doesn't fit the their narrative or the mainstream media narrative is deemed misinformation or a far right narrative. Then they are more than happy to have the police arrest and charge people for it.
UK government hates the fact that normal people are rejecting mainstream media which they control for open platforms that they can't control. Funny how they see it as a threat. Don't want the plebs to openly discuss the failure of the multicultural project or that the police let kids be raped for 20 years.
near
Member
We don’t have free speech in the UK like most countries around the world. If there are limitations in place to what you can say, then it is not free speech. Americans will never understand this because they’re outliers in the world when it comes to freedom of expression, and even there hate speech laws are different.
Mistake
Member
A good portion of Americans understand quite well and exercise it regularly. People only get tripped up on the difference between libel and slander
P:axMagellanic
Member
50+, fella. And ongoing.
For example, let’s say you, the government, have an uncomfortable mass child rape scandal that you’re not dealing with very well. Pesky Americans won’t stop signal boosting it.
First, pass a law that makes “Islamophobia” illegal on the grounds that it is hate speech. Then, classify talking about the scandal in any clear terms as Islamophobia. Problem solved.
Americans view this with incredulity and contempt, rightly so. Life as a feudal serf.
These cunts found it far easier to silence, bully and destroy the lives of little girls and their fathers. They're having far less success with billionaires like Musk or Rowling.
Councils, like most countries have a lot of power and overreach. They can ruin businesses, they can stonewall planning permissions and just make life incredibly difficult for those who stick their heads over the parapet. So to see them sweat their bollocks off is tremendous to witness and is good for the soul.
I'm hoping and praying Americans, Canadians, Aussies and Kiwi's keep this in their news, I welcome the 'interference' of our closest friends and cousins. Because over here they're already trying to bury it under the news of the LA fire and our silly bitch of a chancellor crashing our economy.
P:axMagellanic
Member
Stick us in the rust belt or farming country if you have to, we'll be as grateful as humanly possible and have it fucking bouncing within 10 years like the good old days.
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
Basically this.
No doubt. Every state has lots of opportunity for motivated, competent people.
And, well:
Goalus
Member
China also has free speech.
You can publicly say whatever you want - you just have to deal with the consequences.
Dr.Morris79
Gold Member
It truly is.
It's great to see them get their balls kicked in for what they've done. They're decimated this place for too long.
This isn't just going to go away either for them
With more open platform news and the general disdain that's been building for years it just makes it all the harder for them to hide.
A tides definitely turning.
Dr.Morris79
Gold Member
Hell, give me Mississippi, I'm not fussyNo doubt. Every state has lots of opportunity for motivated, competent people.
And, well:
With a British accent in the States you can probably go straight to tenured professor or CEO tbhHell, give me Mississippi, I'm not fussy
Dr.Morris79
Gold Member
Oh god no, I'd have to have a proper job. I couldn't handle mixing with those fart huffers. I'd rather clean toilets
Jinzo Prime
Member
You have no idea how feral American women go over British accents. You'll have your pick.Oh god no, I'd have to have a proper job. I couldn't handle mixing with those fart huffers. I'd rather clean toilets
Some good opportunities there, too!Oh god no, I'd have to have a proper job. I couldn't handle mixing with those fart huffers. I'd rather clean toilets
P:axMagellanic
Member
Starkey posted a wonderful video yesterday where he think this is going to get incomprehensively worse for our incumbent STASI. Everything these internationalist cunts have built is about to be torn down under Trump and Musk. God willing, or In-sha'Allah to be newspeak compliant.
Keep in mind Starkey warned incessantly about how dangerous Starmer and his regime would be long before the day of the General Election.
I think our American friends would enjoy it too, he goes over the US constitution, its birth, the rights of Englishmen and how it's under attack. Best historian alive IMO.
P:axMagellanic
Member
Putonahappyface
Gold Member
Neff
Member
Yeah I saw it. Like most Brits I adore the guy, I've grown up watching his comedy and have all his books, and you can see he really is struggling to defend his stance, logically and morally, but as a die-hard leftist he just can't bring himself to surrender weaponised hurt feelings.
There's plenty of good 'uns. Proper, hardworking, competent bobbies who are deeply frustrated with the current situation, but their hands are tied. Until leftist academia/the College of Policing and their ilk are removed from decision-making at the top, the kid gloves for criminals/long arm of the law for political dissenters approach will continue.
Dr.Morris79
Gold Member
Thirty years ago I'd of chewed your arm off, these days, I'll stick with the one I've got. Ones enough
I so would do that too!
I watched that too, excellent piece. His previous one on Starmer was well worth a watch too. He didn't hold back..
On a side note, I've just read this. I didn't see this crop up anywhere and to be Frank, it doesn't sound brilliant..
Police turn to private firms amid surge in street crime
Jason Towse, who leads the corporate security business at UK firm Mitie, said the firm was already speaking with officials about how its staff could work alongside police.
Keep in mind this is the same 'group' that kept all those 'mosques' nice and safe during that utterly massive and dangerous 'Far right' riot during the summer
In other words, Keir's building himself a nice little private army, full of diversity, against all those evil people who don't want their children killed, fiddled with or raped
How quaint of him.
I seem to remember the police telling them to dump their weapons back in the mosques though, so how much protection do they really need?
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