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[Karsticles]

GB will GB.

I haven't played since I got back up to college and ummm....... Xenoblade consumed a lot of my time as did me doing a massive game iron man. And the PS3 controllers I have are whack.

No idea. Will have to check at home. Sorry.

No worries, GB backed it up.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Green light!

 

[Karsticles]

Green light!

Since you're no longer bound by time, does that mean I can watch? :-D

Is your girlfriend a student of the same school?

 

[Sigmaah]

I wish Captain Commando was in this game, HIS THEME IS BOSS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX-Oromi9m4

 

["God's Beard!"]

GGs panda, fair and square.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Maan it sucks.

There's times in the match where the connection is decent, then a HUGE lag spike happens and lasts forever.

Sorry Beardo! And GGs!

 

[Karsticles]

I wish Captain Commando was in this game, HIS THEME IS BOSS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX-Oromi9m4

It would be butchered into terrible remix form.

I would love to see Captain Commando in this game, though. Dormammu/Morrigan/Captain Commando ohhh yeah! There's a "get off me" assist that I could use. None of that Haggar crap. I used to love playing CapCom in MvC2. Sure, he was ass, but he was some beautiful ass.

CAPTAIN CORRIDOR!

Maan it sucks.

There's times in the match where the connection is decent, then a HUGE lag spike happens and lasts forever.

Sorry Beardo! And GGs!

Yup. Time for GB to transfer schools.

 

[Sigmaah]

It would be butchered into terrible remix form.

I would love to see Captain Commando in this game, though. Dormammu/Morrigan/Captain Commando ohhh yeah! There's a "get off me" assist that I could use. None of that Haggar crap. I used to love playing CapCom in MvC2. Sure, he was ass, but he was some beautiful ass.

CAPTAIN CORRIDOR!

Exactly! I would love a team or preferably an assist that just makes the opponent BACK OFF for a sec. Is there an assist that does so in this game?

Also, Dorm does too much damage. I shouldn't be able to do over 700k with just abc's... Looks like he joins the wesker club!


ALSO, anyone up for some games on 360?

 

[Karsticles]

Exactly! I would love a team or preferably an assist that just makes the opponent BACK OFF for a sec. Is there an assist that does so in this game?

Also, Dorm does too much damage. I shouldn't be able to do over 700k with just abc's... Looks like he joins the wesker club!


ALSO, anyone up for some games on 360?

I would be fine with Dormammu's damage getting toned down a bit. Then again, if I were in charge, I'd make 4 major changes in this game:
1) TACs no longer random (I'll leave the specifics out).
2) Damage roughly cut in half.
3) 3 strong assists given to each character.
4) Not 100% on this one, but hitstop and cinematic screens being removed.

As for assists that make people back off, you have two of the best on your team already. Hulk's AA Gamma Crush is like...#3 in the game. #1 is Hsien-ko armored up, #2 is Double Lariat, #4 is probably Mighty Smash.

Your best option is using Crossover Counters (forward + assist button) to make your opponent respect your space. Mighty Smash is arguably the best one in the game.

 

[Darksim]

Out of all the keepaway/zoning characters in this game, Deadpool gives me the most trouble of them all(except maybe Taskmaster up close, but that's just because people mash SHIELD SKILLZ!). Those jumping guns are just really annoying to deal with.

From my experience, Dante can simply out projectile spam Deadpool. Guns have terrible durability, all you need to do is avoid them once and start chucking Drives and he loses the projectile war. Charged Air Play also laughs at his zoning game, etc.

Deadpool is one of those characters that are so clearly good, it's hard to understand why he isn't used. I have to think it's mostly about the bad assists. I would use Deadpool instead of Vergil if his hypers weren't "meh".

If you have the guidebook, look at how many recovery frames on his teleport. You'll say "wow".

He is clearly a good character. The moment people play a good one they seem to overate him though.

I actually think his assists are respectable. AA guns is terrible, but Quick Work is fantastic for unblockables, causes soft knockdown, and Katana-Rama is a ground bounce resetting otg assist. You could do much worse.

The teleport isn't that great though. Sure if has great recovery, but it also has a long, visually obvious startup that isn't difficult react to. If as Dante I'm doing repeated Drives against a Deadpool and he decides to drop the zoning war, I can see the teleport's startup, cancel into Devil Trigger and punish the recovery.

Note that none of this applies online where you can't react/play with a thought process. He can actually be pretty infuriating in lag.

 

[Dahbomb]

How do you punish a zero recovery teleport? Good DP players teleport off of projectiles.

 

[Azure J]

Random thought: How have we had a Koryu discussion a few times in the Ultimate Marvel cycle and I never thought of making Strider's Vajra assist hit high? Ultimate bustedness right there.

 

[Karsticles]

From my experience, Dante can simply out projectile spam Deadpool. Guns have terrible durability, all you need to do is avoid them once and start chucking Drives and he loses the projectile war. Charged Air Play also laughs at his zoning game, etc.

Deadpool isn't limited to the guns, though. His Ninja Gifts give him a lot of ways to command a zoning war.

How is Drive beating the zoning war? It has 5 durability to Deadpool's 8, plus Deadpool can teleport behind you while you're charging Drive and can cancel his guns into a teleport at any time.

Air Play is good, no doubt. I think that just gives an interesting match though, it doesn't laugh at Deadpool's zoning. Especially when Dante needs to beware of grenades, which have medium durability.

He is clearly a good character. The moment people play a good one they seem to overate him though.

I actually think his assists are respectable. AA guns is terrible, but Quick Work is fantastic for unblockables, causes soft knockdown, and Katana-Rama is a ground bounce resetting otg assist. You could do much worse.

The teleport isn't that great though. Sure if has great recovery, but it also has a long, visually obvious startup that isn't difficult react to. If as Dante I'm doing repeated Drives against a Deadpool and he decides to drop the zoning war, I can see the teleport's startup, cancel into Devil Trigger and punish the recovery.

Note that none of this applies online where you can't react/play with a thought process. He can actually be pretty infuriating in lag.

The startup in Deadpool's teleport is 25 frames, but it has no recovery. In total frames, it's actually one of the fastest teleports in the game. Its true strength isn't in the actual teleport, though, but rather its ability to be canceled into from his specials. That makes him highly unpredictable when combined with assists.

Ideally, you're pairing Deadpool with a good projectile assist or Vajra. I think Deadpool/Dante/Strider is a fantastic team. I don't know how Dante could hope to match Deadpool's zoning with that team. You certainly won't want to be using Air Play.

Deadpool also has a double jump and really good air-to-ground specials to aid in his zoning game, and he has both chainable light attacks and a standing overhead. That's a lot going for the guy outside of the zoning game, which is why I think he's noteworthy compared to someone like Hawkeye.

 

[Face it Tiger..]

That Thor vid gave me some ideas..

 

[Solune]

Random thought: How have we had a Koryu discussion a few times in the Ultimate Marvel cycle and I never thought of making Strider's Vajra assist hit high? Ultimate bustedness right there.

Let's just say I'm glad divekicks don't hit high.

 

[Karsticles]

Random thought: How have we had a Koryu discussion a few times in the Ultimate Marvel cycle and I never thought of making Strider's Vajra assist hit high? Ultimate bustedness right there.

That's not interesting to me. I'd rather Vajra be given a projectile hitbox, or let him randomly be one of the three images coming down on you, so it's impossible to counter reliably.

On Koryu notes, watching MvC2 made me realize how much I miss Sentinel having passive armor.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

What about making Vajra OTG.

NO How about 5 transparent Striders doing Vajra instantaneously.

 

[Darksim]

Deadpool isn't limited to the guns, though. His Ninja Gifts give him a lot of ways to command a zoning war.

How is Drive beating the zoning war? It has 5 durability to Deadpool's 8, plus Deadpool can teleport behind you while you're charging Drive and can cancel his guns into a teleport at any time.

If you avoid the bullets/some of the bullets and throw out a Drive, you can put out a second one before the bullets get to Dante. The bullets take time to puncture through the first Drive.

Air Play is good, no doubt. I think that just gives an interesting match though, it doesn't laugh at Deadpool's zoning. Especially when Dante needs to beware of grenades, which have medium durability.

I wasn't referring to doing Air Play on a regular basis, which isn't a good idea. In my situation, if I know he's going to have to block a Drive/Vajra I can jump and fully charge an Air Play, which from my experience invalidates his zoning game until it is offscreen. Never had a Deadpool try to throw a grenade at it though.

The startup in Deadpool's teleport is 25 frames, but it has no recovery. In total frames, it's actually one of the fastest teleports in the game. Its true strength isn't in the actual teleport, though, but rather its ability to be canceled into from his specials. That makes him highly unpredictable when combined with assists.

I thought his teleport had 10 frames of recovery. Thats what I recall it was in vanilla, and it feels exactly the same in this game. I could go cap the teleport and look at each frame sometime in the near future, but for now I don't believe that it has 0 frames of recovery.

Ideally, you're pairing Deadpool with a good projectile assist or Vajra. I think Deadpool/Dante/Strider is a fantastic team. I don't know how Dante could hope to match Deadpool's zoning with that team. You certainly won't want to be using Air Play.

As Dante I've always had my own Vajra/Projectile assist. They really just favor whoever currently has the momentum. Even though Deadpool can initially do whatever he wants, once I establish control I usually keep it until someone decides to quit the projectile war.

Deadpool also has a double jump and really good air-to-ground specials to aid in his zoning game, and he has both chainable light attacks and a standing overhead. That's a lot going for the guy outside of the zoning game, which is why I think he's noteworthy compared to someone like Hawkeye.

He would be more noteworthy if he had Gimlet and one of the best full screen projectile assists in the game, which is exactly what he doesn't have.

 

[Karsticles]

If you avoid the bullets/some of the bullets and throw out a Drive, you can put out a second one before the bullets get to Dante. The bullets take time to puncture through the first Drive.

That's when Deadpool should throw a grenade or some shuriken out, then.

I wasn't referring to doing Air Play on a regular basis, which isn't a good idea. In my situation, if I know he's going to have to block a Drive/Vajra I can jump and fully charge an Air Play, which from my experience invalidates his zoning game until it is offscreen. Never had a Deadpool try to throw a grenade at it though.

The grenade is really underrated. I don't full understand when to grenade and when to shoot guns. I've beaten people doing nothing but both plenty of times. I think the character is massively unexplored. Like, to a point that makes Rocket Raccoon seem fleshed out.

I thought his teleport had 10 frames of recovery. Thats what I recall it was in vanilla, and it feels exactly the same in this game. I could go cap the teleport and look at each frame sometime in the near future, but for now I don't believe that it has 0 frames of recovery.

The guidebook says 0 frames, and my experiences feel like it's 0 frames, haha. Even if it were 10 frames of recovery, Dante can't punish that on reaction through a Devil Trigger cancel. Not reliably, at least.

As Dante I've always had my own Vajra/Projectile assist. They really just favor whoever currently has the momentum. Even though Deadpool can initially do whatever he wants, once I establish control I usually keep it until someone decides to quit the projectile war.

I just feel like Deadpool's assist calls are more flexible, because he can do things like jump, wall jump, double jump, assist call, qcf.L or qcf.L~M as he's coming toward you. He can basically call assists from superjump height, which gives him a lot of flexibility in a zoning war.

He would be more noteworthy if he had Gimlet and one of the best full screen projectile assists in the game, which is exactly what he doesn't have.

I'd rather him get his level 3 as a level 1, and for it to not be crap. He doesn't need a level 3, since IIRC he can chain level 1s together when done properly. Deadpool is definitely on the list of "so many good moves, but Capcom didn't give him any as an assist" characters. Sigh.

 

[JeTmAn81]

That's when Deadpool should throw a grenade or some shuriken out, then.

Or super jump and fire the diagonal down guns. That will stop anyone trying to spam ground projectiles from full screen. Deadpool is not free to Dante at all.

 

[Frantic]

From my experience, Dante can simply out projectile spam Deadpool. Guns have terrible durability, all you need to do is avoid them once and start chucking Drives and he loses the projectile war. Charged Air Play also laughs at his zoning game, etc.

That's fine solo, but the good Deadpools I play usually have some sort of beam/projectile/missiles and then the projectile war is much more in Deadpool's favor. *shrug* Plus, when Deadpool gets in Dante's face, he's got much faster normals to be a real pain in the ass for Dante.

Random thought: How have we had a Koryu discussion a few times in the Ultimate Marvel cycle and I never thought of making Strider's Vajra assist hit high? Ultimate bustedness right there.

I've been making a list of 'dream' Koryuu stuff for fun, since God's Beard's list was very disappointing to me. I thought about doing that, but I deemed it too Koryuu.

 

[Darksim]

The guidebook says 0 frames, and my experiences feel like it's 0 frames, haha. Even if it were 10 frames of recovery, Dante can't punish that on reaction through a Devil Trigger cancel. Not reliably, at least.

Vanilla frame data on my phone says 18/12 startup/recovery, no idea what the truth is. I shall record the animation whenever I have the chance and remember to do so.

Even if you can't reasonably react with Devil Trigger in time to punish the recovery (which is admittedly impossible online), he still teleported himself into my mixup game, which is my entire objective in the first place.

 

[Dahbomb]

Koryu edition Vajra would cause ground bounce and hit overhead while being + on block even if chicken blocked.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Hulk's st. H would be a forced ground bounce.

 

[Dahbomb]

Not it would be unblockable with hyper armor.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

When are you getting a console with the game so we can all play you?

 

[Dahbomb]

When are you getting a console with the game so we can all play you?

Never. I'm a PC gamer now.

I spent all of today grinding in the game getting ready for the tournament. I am thinking of playing a pocket Vergil/Hawkeye in case I run into that Deadpool player.

 

[Karsticles]

Vanilla frame data on my phone says 18/12 startup/recovery, no idea what the truth is. I shall record the animation whenever I have the chance and remember to do so.

Even if you can't reasonably react with Devil Trigger in time to punish the recovery (which is admittedly impossible online), he still teleported himself into my mixup game, which is my entire objective in the first place.

Reading off the guide here for both cases:
Vanilla Teleport: 18/12
Ultimate Teleport: 25/0

I'd love a recorded animation, though.

Assuming the frame data is accurate, the Devil Trigger won't likely put you in a good position. Devil Trigger is 4+4, and Dante's fastest normal is 8 frames. Deadpool's fastest normal is 4 frames. His teleport is 25 frames, so that means you need to react within 13 frames of the teleport starting to have enough frame advantage to go even with Deadpool's s.L. That's not likely to happen. I also don't think you're in a reasonable position to be mixing Deadpool up here. It's probably more reasonable for both of you to back off or have a "who dares to push the button first" battle.

Or super jump and fire the diagonal down guns. That will stop anyone trying to spam ground projectiles from full screen. Deadpool is not free to Dante at all.

This is dangerous because Deadpool is prone until he lands when he fires guns. If Deadpool misses Dante, he'll likely die.

Never. I'm a PC gamer now.

I spent all of today grinding in the game getting ready for the tournament. I am thinking of playing a pocket Vergil/Hawkeye in case I run into that Deadpool player.

Run a pocket Captain America / Iron Man instead. Demolishes Deadpool, and you'll be the talk of the room while getting to use your Iron Man.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

I thought it'd be smart for Champ to pick up a pocket Deadpool against Chris G.

He's such a bitch to play against as Hawkeye.

 

[Karsticles]

I thought it'd be smart for Champ to pick up a pocket Deadpool against Chris G.

He's such a bitch to play against as Hawkeye.

I hate fighting Deadpool, but I often forget that because hardly anyone uses him. I'd use him if he had a good level 1 hyper for me to burn meter on. My main problem with him is that I get 5 bars waaaay too fast to have anything to use it on.

 

[Dahbomb]

I thought it'd be smart for Champ to pick up a pocket Deadpool against Chris G.

He's such a bitch to play against as Hawkeye.

I was thinking of giving him that idea some how.

DP with Missiles and Disruptor is pretty cheesy.

Run a pocket Captain America / Iron Man instead. Demolishes Deadpool, and you'll be the talk of the room while getting to use your Iron Man.

That idea crossed my mind. Cap is pretty derp as it is if you have the fundamentals I just can't convert off of aerial Shield Slashes.

 

[Karsticles]

That idea crossed my mind. Cap is pretty derp as it is if you have the fundamentals I just can't convert off of aerial Shield Slashes.

It's not too hard if you're not looking to maximize your damage. If you do Shield Slash H and hit someone, jump forward and do j.MH, Shield Slash M, wait for them to come back, launch, and then do your magic series into Hyper Charging Star.

You don't even need to do that, though. Just spam Charging Star + Unibeam like an idiot and you'll win, and mix in c.L to Shield Slash for blockstrings when you need it.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Since you're no longer bound by time, does that mean I can watch? :-D

Is your girlfriend a student of the same school?

Well I was bound by "until I finish breakfast" and yeah.

 

[Karsticles]

Well I was bound by "until I finish breakfast" and yeah.

Maybe you two should get an apartment together so you can have better internet. Errr, I mean so you two can take your commitment to the next level.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Maybe you two should get an apartment together so you can have better internet. Errr, I mean so you two can take your commitment to the next level.

You want me to move in with her, Dahbomb wants us to break up. At least community-side relationship advice has practical repercussions related to the topic. OT scares me.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

You want me to move in with her, Dahbomb wants us to break up. At least community-side relationship advice has practical repercussions related to the topic. OT scares me.

I remember that one.

Dump the bitch.

I said "whoa"

 

[Karsticles]

You want me to move in with her, Dahbomb wants us to break up. At least community-side relationship advice has practical repercussions related to the topic. OT scares me.

I've slowly begun to think that OT is what happens to all the people who can't handle gaming discussion without getting banned, so they just spout off whatever about daily issues because GAF is more lenient on the bans over there. Anything about relationship advice there is just an opportunity for everyone to impose social ideals.

Why would you two break up? Do you like the relationship?

Edit: Ah, APP reminded me of DahBomb's post.

Moving in together it is! A girlfriend with poor taste in games is better than a girlfriend with no taste for games.

 

[Dahbomb]

Lol how do you find all these posts?

You need to dig out some posts from lowhighkang where he trolled me for saying Vergil is top tier material. I tried to find it myself but couldn't.

Also if it wasn't obvious that post was a troll. IMO you really shouldn't be taking advice about real life from a gaming forum. Karst is right though, girl with no interest in gaming is better than no girl at all.

 

[Karsticles]

Lol how do you find all these posts?

You need to dig out some posts from lowhighkang where he trolled me for saying Vergil is top tier material. I tried to find it myself but couldn't.

I'm not sure if APP is a master of the GAF search engine, or if he's stalking everyone on GAF and indexing our claims.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I always use whatever vague memory I have of a post, the name and neogaf and plug it into google with quotes.

 

[Solune]

I'm not sure if APP is a master of the GAF search engine, or if he's stalking everyone on GAF and indexing our claims.

He has to earn his tag man, that shit ain't free.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Lol nope, I just remember that well for what ever reason. All I had to do is type it in the search under Dahbomb's name.

And Dahbomb I probably could find that.

 

[Dahbomb]

I used the google method GB posted to find it myself. Oh man some of these comments are hilarious "Captain America is basically the same as Vergil on point".

Going to collect all these for posterity.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Are these what you were talking about?

Every Vergil in this tournament has been getting bodied. Either Vergil isn't as good as we think, or you - truly are the only one in this entire world that knows how to 'apparently' play Vergil.

5 meters plus x-factor usually means a comeback for most characters dude.

But 5 meters and x-factor is a means to cover Vergil's shortcomings (long recovery on normals aren't so long, the meter allows Vergil to cover himself and cancel out of whiffed attacks, allows him to get in where as no meter (no air dash etc.) wouldn't, whereas for other characters x-factor and high meter is a means to enhance their strength.

If Vergil ever -is- a threat on anyone's team (in competitive play, I don't know anyone who uses Vergil in high level tournament play where Vergil is their best) - but if Vergil were to be a particular players best character, he's X-factor guard cancel bait, free - so easy all day. It's so easy to confirm a x-factor roman cancel off of any of Vergil's slow as shit recovery normals. With abysmally low health, that's a dead Vergil. Especially after an advancing guard.

It's a fundamental oddity in Vergil's game in which he either needs assists and/or a copious amount of meter just to set himself up for the prospect to do damage, not even guaranteed damage, just the prospect of it. Moreover, the use of Spiral Swords invariably fucks combos up due to hit scaling and the like. And due to Vergil's poor defensive game, he now has to seemingly burn meter just as a means of defense to get people off of them.

Vergil's got some crazy strengths but has a lot of holes in his gameplay. And I think we're seeing a lot of these holes getting exposed in tournament play. Still an overall decent character though, but just consider how much meter Vergil needs to do his "thing" - when all that meter can be applied to another character for more reachable gains.

*waits for Dahbomb to tell the entire tournament competitive scene they aren't using Vergil right and he has the best Vergil that nobody has ever seen...*

=p Just kidding Dahbomb, don't send me any death threats.

I don't know: I'm watching FC Jago's anchor Vergil vs. NerdJosh's anchor Wesker, and Wesker is making Vergil look like his bitch. SS doesn't protect Vergil's hurtbox from the top, straight or obligue angle. It also doesn't really last all that long. Not to mention Wesker can run up and command throw Vergil upon activation since it's 1 frame start up on the throw. And Jago's a pretty good player - naturally, who adopted Vergil very early on.

Anyway:

I mostly agree with everything you say. Ultimately a lot of the things required to 'protect' Vergil at least from a competitive perspective, isn't worth it since all that can be applied to other characters with quicker, and more immediately rewarding results (i.e, Wesker, Viper, Spencer, Zero, Doom, Wolverine, Magneto etc etc.)

Vergil is not S or even top A tier because of the imbalances that exist with some of the other S-tier characters. In actuality, I think Vergil is a very strongly balanced character that is only struggling because of the absurdities of some of the other top tier characters. It's hard to justify using Vergil when other characters seemingly can open up their opponents without assists or meter, and consequently build a net bar after doing a 900,000 damage combo. If Vergil uses meter to open up an opponent (spiral swords) he wastes a meter, and isn't gaining meter during the combo via spiral sword activation, and it's hard to do that much damage because of the absurd damage and hit stun scaling. At that point, just Magneto and tri-dash over your opponents head with a semi-decent assist, problem solved. Spiral Sword not required. Seth Killian really said it best day 1, "Vergil is not top tier." Maybe we see a little truth in that statement. Vergil is no Dante in terms of tournament effectiveness (thus far).

Last one doesn't have to do with Dahbomb, I just thought it was funny and deserved a

 

[Dahbomb]

ROFL @ these posts...

HAHAHAHA

 

[Solune]

Oh LHK... I can't take anyone who likes DmC seriously.

 

[Sigmaah]

Never. I'm a PC gamer now.

I spent all of today grinding in the game getting ready for the tournament. I am thinking of playing a pocket Vergil/Hawkeye in case I run into that Deadpool player.

Get a 360 so I can play you in marvel and BEAT THAT ASS SON!!!

 

["God's Beard!"]

Now do it for pre-vanilla Iron Man posts ^_^

 

[Dahbomb]

I am still waiting for Wesker players to command throw Vergil out of Spiral swords...

Man I know I prescribe to theory fighting a lot but even back in the day I knew that wasn't going to happen because Vergil is never that close to the opponent during activation and once Vergil gets you in block stun you have to XF and even then you have to be close. This really only works with Thors hyper after XF which Vergil actually has a counter to, he can DT to make the Mighty Punish whiff.

Now do it for pre-vanilla Iron Man posts ^_^

That doesn't count because no one really knew the system and the game was still changing.

Just like no one is going to roast you for saying Wolverine is low tier in Ultimate. Different builds, not enough play time etc.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I just wanna relive the salt.

really only works with Thors hyper after XF which Vergil actually has a counter to, he can DT to make the Mighty Punish whiff.

Wouldn't you have to DHC if he countered your SS with the toss?