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[QisTopTier]

Doom probably feels off to you because moving around with him feels awkward

 

[Karsticles]

I can look at a Vergil changelog and understand what's going on because we all know what has to get nerfbatted for the most part.

I look at Nemesis and just go "why?" You have to put in the long form or it's just a bunch of noise.

Yes, but they aren't going to do it, for good reason. You want to minimize friction on invested players.

No one is going to be upset about the assists we are removing. Every good assist is being kept as-is. I honestly think that your concerns and confusion are due to a lack of knowledge about what we're talking about here. You understand the Vergil changes but not the Nemesis changes because you don't know anything about Nemesis.

Well I gave a bunch of suggestions. Don't know if they would get used or not.

Rapid Slash should definitely have more recovery. As it is when Vergil goes full Dark Rapid Slash becomes safe which is quite absurd.

But Blistering Swords on 1 meter is WAY too good. Vergil gets insane pressure off of it and better he gets an insant overheas off of it.

You also can't restore Tron's Drill to Vanilla status because she had an infinite off of it.

Is Rapid Slash safe in XF3, or XF3 + multiplicative Devil Trigger?

And is Round Trip too much as an assist? I'm iffy on that.

What I've decided is something along the lines of Jill/????/Strider. Jill because why the fuck not, I really like point Jill even though I'm terrible with her but it's no fun mashing out the only baby mode combo I know with Wolverine.

Jill/Iron Man/Strider.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Dahbomb is right that Captain America is really Vanilla, though. What if Stars and Stripes could be canceled into Shield Toss? Too much to give such a one-dimensional character a comboable dp? It wouldn't be safe, since you could air throw the Shield Toss.

I thought the same thing but thought it was too weird. He's Captain America. Apple pie kinda dude.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72495111]I thought the same thing but thought it was too weird. He's Captain America. Apple pie kinda dude.[/QUOTE]
Are you saying you don't like apple pie?

 

[Dahbomb]

Rapid Slash is like -3 on block in DT still punishable by throw but that goes out of the window when XF is involved. I wouldn't be surprised if in XF3 he is 0 on block from Rapid Slash.

Round Trip is SUPER iffy in the game but balance wise it wouldn't be a huge deal because it would have 30 frame start up, more as an assist. It would sort of work like how Vergil tosses Round Trip and then tags out... the sword would just fly out when its done. It's an interesting idea but there's no way of knowing if it would be broke or not. If I was the game designer I sure as hell would mess with it as an assist.

 

[Frantic]

Is Rapid Slash safe in XF3, or XF3 + multiplicative Devil Trigger?

It's 0 on block in XF3.

And is Round Trip too much as an assist? I'm iffy on that.

I would say yes. The amount of lockdown you could potentially get off it would be kinda ridiculous.

Make Judgment Cut track if anything.

 

[Dahbomb]

Honestly it would be way easier to make Lunar Phase an assist. Solid lock down, great combo extender and gets buffed in DT. No weird new mechanics to deal with.

And I say for Beacon Bomb, not only are you coding it to be a tracking assist but its a capture state move. Characters with anti air grabs could have inescapable loops with it (ala She Hulk and Tron in Vanilla).

 

[Karsticles]

I'll nerf Rapid Slash recovery a bit, then. It's only an X-Factor nerf, so no bigs.

Honestly it would be way easier to make Lunar Phase an assist. Solid lock down, great combo extender and gets buffed in DT.

Lunar Phase worries me for a few reasons:
1) It hits inconsistently a lot of the time, which could open people up for weird mixups and grabs.
2) It would be a lockdown assist; could Firebrand set up unblockables off of it?
3) It would be good as a crossover counter, but now Vergil would have 3 assists that are crossover counters; why would anyone pick Rising Sun?

I've also been rethinking the Helm Breaker nerf. Should it really only be cancelable into teleports? I feel like he needs a safe move like Helm Breaker to throw out defensively because his other normals are such big risks, and we're killing its safety.

Honestly it would be way easier to make Lunar Phase an assist. Solid lock down, great combo extender and gets buffed in DT. No weird new mechanics to deal with.

And I say for Beacon Bomb, not only are you coding it to be a tracking assist but its a capture state move. Characters with anti air grabs could have inescapable loops with it (ala She Hulk and Tron in Vanilla).

Beacon Bomb isn't an assist. GB just got confused and thought I mixed the name up. It really is a tracking Servbot Launcher.

 

[Dahbomb]

I don't think there's anything wrong with having 3 CC assists, not that Lunar Phase would really be effective for it. If he whiffs that or it gets blocked he is screwed if its not meter canceled.

Lunar Phase doesn't provide Cold Shot or Tenderizer amount of lock down. In DT it would be faster so it would provide less lockdown (but a bigger hit box). I am not sure the type of unblockables you can get off of it to be honest.

Helm Breaker when spaced properly is not punishable, even with it being -1 on block. If someone gets close to you and chicken block then you did it wrong. There is always DT cancel which can get him out if needed. Although I think making it -1 is an "eh" change. You still want to punish it via chicken block.

 

[Azure J]

I don't have anything to really add to the current crop of characters personally since I haven't used them much, but on behalf of a friend (AceKillah) who mains Vergil, here's some stuff to chew on.

I'm also gathering some critique from another friend (Nooneyouknow) on the overall direction of the new system changes. If they don't go up tonight, I'll get them out in the morning.

 

[Karsticles]

I don't have anything to really add to the current crop of characters personally since I haven't used them much, but on behalf of a friend (AceKillah) who mains Vergil, here's some stuff to chew on.

I'm also gathering some critique from another friend (Nooneyouknow) on the overall direction of the new system changes. If they don't go up tonight, I'll get them out in the morning.

Too many nerfs to Helm Breaker, no mention of Spiral Swords. I don't feel like Helm Breaker is that bad.

Spoiler

I anti-aired it with Shuma-Gorath's c.H last week; the room got so hype until I dropped my Shuma-Gorath bnb like I always do...

 

[Dahbomb]

Some of those nerfs are extreme particularly to Helm Breaker and his normals. What's funny is the super soft nerf on SS... as if hyper scaling is the problem on that move. No way should you take out Stinger dash cancel, if Vergil loses that then remove Heartless Spire dash cancel OS as well.

The other stuff is already put in. He is right though in that Vergil is like Vanilla Phoenix in that he just abuses system mechanics really hard. 4 of his changes are system changes.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Someone play me.

 

[Karsticles]

I checked, and the active frames on Lunar Phase are 36(9)6. Dark Hole is 33 and setups up unblockables for Firebrand, so I don't think I can endorse Lunar Phase coming in, or you'll have another Tenderizer situation.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72498941]Someone play me.[/QUOTE]
You have to ask me early in the day.

 

[Dahbomb]

Firebrand = No fun allowed!

I just say keep Judment Cut and buff Rising Sun. Or allow tracking on Judgment Cut assist.

 

[Azure J]

@AzureJ

Current UMvC3 Community Patch List:

Going to go through this line by line.

FEATURESET CHANGES:
*Improved Netcode.
*Replay Mode.
*Hitbox Viewer (Training Mode).

Absolutely.

*PS3 system parity.

Completely and utterly outside the scope of a console patch or DLC. This isn't happening without a brand new port.

*Vanilla MvC3 HUD option.
*Player Match, Lobbies, and offline play for H&H mode.

Absolutely.

*”Kick” function added to Lobbies.

Is this really necessary? Does this actually accomplish a damn thing except getting people kicked out when they beat the host or get a win streak?

*Include the full UMvC3 trailer video.

I guess it'd be nice, but does it really do anything but bloat filesize?

*List ping time for online opponents.

I can't see a reason not to do this, although this is not the great indicator of lag people think it is.

*When a Lobby creator leaves, the Lobby retains its properties (stays private).

Sure, why not. I had no idea it didn't.

SYSTEM CHANGES:
TAC Changes:*Cost 1 bar, always a guaranteed exchange in one of three directions.

All this becomes is a safe tag at the cost of meter. We already have safe tags at the cost of meter.

*Meter gain/loss from directional choice removed.

This only makes any sense at all in the context of the first change, as otherwise it would remove any semblance of a metagame around TACs at all. First change is bad, so is this one.

*HSD returns to 0 after a TAC and builds normally from there.

I honestly don't even know how much this would actually change. You're still bring in a character with a fresh combo at super jump hit stun levels. It seems like a poor way to prevent the TACs infinites versus simply making the game check for state changes during hitstop, which would fix seevral other things as well.

*The TAC user cannot gain meter after a TAC until the opponent enters recovery (exception: Soul Drain, meter gain assists).

The Soul Drain exception potentially cannot even be done without rewriting the games meter gain block code. As we have yet to ever see anything simply reduce meter gain, I'm led to believe it's a binary on/off. This would apply a meter gain block flag to the incoming character, which would block Soul Drain from gaining meter. Incidentally, this would also happen if AV blocked meter drain. As to the second part of the extension, you can't even call assists during a TAC, since you are in a launch state the entire time.

Throw Changes:*Throw tech window increased by 3 frames (from 7 to 10).

This still makes it impossible to break throws on reaction, throws are already being broken on anticipation, the most this could realistically do is cause a few more accidental throw breaks from option selects.

*You cannot be grabbed during tech recovery.

This is a valid change, although it's being made to address a situation that actually does not really matter.

*Ground throw techs put more distance between the two teching characters.

This is a flat out bad change given the above already solves the non issue-issue.

*Throws can only be initiated with f.H and b.H.

I actually dislike this change on a personal level, but I can't really argue against it objectively. I'd rather see it be that attacks using directions other than forward or back cannot be interrupted into throws. If forward and back dashes are going to retain throw OS, I really see no reason that diagonal dashes should not.

*All command throws are now throw-invincible through their startup and active frames.

Does this even accomplish anything? This just reeks of someone playing a grappler being salty they got scooped by a normal throw.

X-Factor Changes:*X-Factor sum values are now as follows: XF1 – 40%; XF2 – 65%; XF3 – 80%.

This is horribly worded. I assume that it's supposed to mean that that's the total of the bonuses received at that level. In which case, No. There's no reason to homogenize the total bonuses received from X-factor, especially when characters do not benefit from damage or speed in the same way. This also reeks of completely not realizing that a very large portion of the benefit x-factor provides is the increased minimum scaling.

*X-Factor now prevents time outs while active.

LOL

*X-Factor buffs now stack additively with install hypers, not multiplicatively.

Have people even done the math on this to see just how much this changes? It's really not much at all. The biggest offender is probably Vergil's speed, and this would only reduce his total speed boost to 140% from 143.75%. The changes to the damage values would accomplish nothing beyond an extra hit needed to kill in virtually all circumstances. If you really want to change install and hyper stacking, change it so you only receive the largest bonus, though I believe in this case X-factor always wins. Everyone except Wolverine, Firebrand, and Ryu would still receive significant benefits from their installs.

Damage Changes:
*All character health increased by 20%.
*Chip damage increased by 5% (to 35%).

Whatever, sure. Although this changes not much at all. everyone still gets two touched, and most one touches are entirely unaffected.

*Damage scaling now applies to assists getting hit.

Technically, it already does so long as the point is also being hit. If we didn't have auto guard, I'd say the game is actually better for being able to choose to take damage so your assist takes less, but you actually don't have that choice. So sure, make sure damage on assists scales properly whether the point is being comboed or not. Frankly, the bonus damage assists currently take is also absurdly high, and could be brought down significantly as well.

Combo Changes:
*Cannot mash Light chains on whiff. Can only do it on block or hit.

Empty Renda cancels for the majority of the cast are a basic Capcom game staple, and pretty damn common to other fighting games as well. Changing this will make the game feel very, very odd, and I for one would probably just walk away. It fixes an issue that isn't really an issue.
A Real issue to fix with renda cancels would be to limit how many times they can chain into themselves on hit or block.

Assist Changes:
*Assists depart with invulnerability frames if the point character is hit before they appear on the screen.

I agree with this, although many others will not. This makes the system much more Marvel 2 like, and greatly reduces the amount of two for ones. However, there is a legitimate argument that not making bad assist calls is a player skill, which this woudl reduce emphasis on.

*Assists cannot be called during recovery frames or rolls.

Yes.

*Cannot call assists at super jump height after recovering.

The only reason this works as of now, is because blocking an attack or being hit removes the super jump state from your character. This change would make the calling of assists entirely based on screen height, and not character state, meaning it would also take away the ability to Dash/Fly/Use a special move to obtain those heights and call assists. This is an overall bad change.

*When an assist begins recovery from knockdown, it is invincible until it exits the stage.

Whatever, no one has found a way to reliably hit assists as they begin to leave after recovering anyway, so all this does is remove a dice roll.

Other Changes:
*Guard Breaks removed.

This is vague, as there are at least two different types of occurrences known as guard breaks right now, and removing one of them requires a massive system mechanic change. The first and most common, is baiting the opponent into pushblocking on incoming, and dash canceling your attack to avoid the push block and grab them now that they've pushed buttons and lost their throw immunity. The only ways to change this are to extend throw immuity on incoming until they touch the ground and change states instead of on button press, which means anyone who manages to dash up and fly away would retain that throw immuinty since flight retains the state it was activated in, or to make it so a dash cannot negate pushblock. I don't think either of these changes are healthy. Then there's also the guard break that occurs on the first frame of landing, as aerial block stun is removed. I'm not certain you can fix this without having aerial blockstun be retained upon landing, which is a huge system change. "Fixing" this either way will likely have more net negative impact on the game than positive.

*Ground neutral tech recovery is now slightly slower and more deliberately visualized.

Then why would I ever neutral tech?

*Character deaths do not cause inputs to drop when there are multiple characters being hit simultaneously.

Sure.

*Input reading changed: holding forward/back is no longer a forward/back input in terms of moves. Example: holding back, and then doing qcb, currently gives one a reverse dragon punch motion. In general, directional input buffering is toned down a bit.

This would play all hell with command normals and throws. making the input buffer slightly smaller would be a fine choice, but the direction thing is just plain bad.

*Raw tags no longer hit overhead.

Is this really an issue at all? I mean, if they popped you up into a spinning knockdown like Marvel 2, I could see it, but all this does is make raw tags slightly more safe.

*Attack cancelation does not change when in X-Factor (currently, you cannot cancel Morrigan’s s.H in certain X-Factor levels).

First I've ever heard of this being an issue for Morrigan. But the issue here is that the x-factor speed boost works by skipping frames. I'm pretty sure there is simply no way to fix this is a clean manner.

*All snapbacks universalized to be 2 frames and +1 on block. Attack travel speed instantaneous for all characters.

No. There's no reason for all snaps to be safe on block, and this would require either completely new attacks for characters, or a change to the attack each character uses for their snap. Snaps use the active and recovery frames of the attack they mimic. This could easily have the side of effect of Ghost Rider's Stand H being active at it's full extension from it's first active frame instead of only reaching full extension on the 4th. Other characters would be similarly effected, but this was the best immediate example

.*Efforts have been made to provide all characters with three strong assist options.

Whatever.

*Attacks which require a charged input can no longer be charged during cinematic cutscenes.

This would also mean those attacks do not charge during hitstop. This would adversely effect all character with any charge input of any kind.

Debated:
*Air and ground dashes enabled pre-match. OR No pre-match movement.
*Incoming characters can choose which side of the current screen perspective they come in on by holding left or right; does not apply to Snapbacks.

Fuck no, to both. We wouldn't even be playing anything close to the same game afterwords

Thoughts from Nooneyouknow.

 

[SolarKnight]

You have to ask me early in the day.

Can I ask in advance for tomorrow before this gets rapidly flooded with patch talk again? :v

 

[Dahbomb]

Another person who apparently does not know how X factor values work.

 

[Frantic]

Another person who apparently does not know how X factor values work.

Should really put a note of 'adjusted from the original values of 40/70/100' somewhere in there.

Also, I'll add my two cents and say I don't want the 'choose which side you come out from'. Mainly because it kinda makes incoming a two-way guessing game.

 

[Dahbomb]

And we are most likely going to re-evaluate the system changes again. In fact there will be a whole revision again once we get everything in writing.

 

[Azure J]

Should really put a note of 'adjusted from the original values of 40/70/100' somewhere in there.

Also, I'll add my two cents and say I don't want the 'choose which side you come out from'. Mainly because it kinda makes incoming a two-way guessing game.

I'm seriously becoming convinced that a re-write is needed so people get what's being said here. We're getting lost in translation every now and again.

 

[Karsticles]

Thoughts from Nooneyouknow.

Ironically, I know Nooneyouknow. He has a very poor understanding of theoretical changes. He used to say that Ultimate Morrigan was worse than Vanilla - lol. Do me a favor, and if you're going to put this kind of stuff up, take the time to argue it out with them first so they actually understand the changes.

My responses:

Completely and utterly outside the scope of a console patch or DLC. This isn't happening without a brand new port.

It's important to let Capcom know we know the difference.

Is this really necessary? Does this actually accomplish a damn thing except getting people kicked out when they beat the host or get a win streak?

Yes. When people create lobbies, AFKers can ruin it.

All this becomes is a safe tag at the cost of meter. We already have safe tags at the cost of meter.

Name one safe tag at the cost of 1 bar. And no, it's not just a safe tag. It has a lot of team synergy potential. Example: end a combo with Dante, TAC to Trish, Round Harvest, raw tag Dante back in for an unblockable with Samurai Edge.

This only makes any sense at all in the context of the first change, as otherwise it would remove any semblance of a metagame around TACs at all. First change is bad, so is this one.

No meter gain or loss from TACs should be removed no matter what. It's fucking stupid and destroys any concept of meter management in this game.

The Soul Drain exception potentially cannot even be done without rewriting the games meter gain block code. As we have yet to ever see anything simply reduce meter gain, I'm led to believe it's a binary on/off. This would apply a meter gain block flag to the incoming character, which would block Soul Drain from gaining meter. Incidentally, this would also happen if AV blocked meter drain. As to the second part of the extension, you can't even call assists during a TAC, since you are in a launch state the entire time.

You can call an assist after spiking. Duh. Meter gain is not a binary on/off, or else Dante wouldn't be able to gain Dark Harmonizer meter during Devil Trigger.

This still makes it impossible to break throws on reaction, throws are already being broken on anticipation, the most this could realistically do is cause a few more accidental throw breaks from option selects.

You're the first to say it's not enough.

This is a flat out bad change given the above already solves the non issue-issue.

Stop calling changes bad when you don't even know why they are made.

This is horribly worded. I assume that it's supposed to mean that that's the total of the bonuses received at that level. In which case, No. There's no reason to homogenize the total bonuses received from X-factor, especially when characters do not benefit from damage or speed in the same way. This also reeks of completely not realizing that a very large portion of the benefit x-factor provides is the increased minimum scaling.

And stop criticizing changes when you don't even know how the game works right now. X-Factor total bonuses are already normalized.

Empty Renda cancels for the majority of the cast are a basic Capcom game staple, and pretty damn common to other fighting games as well. Changing this will make the game feel very, very odd, and I for one would probably just walk away. It fixes an issue that isn't really an issue.
A Real issue to fix with renda cancels would be to limit how many times they can chain into themselves on hit or block.

Yeah, I've never seen anyone spam s.L under a character and get combos.

I lost interested in responding after this.

Can I ask in advance for tomorrow before this gets rapidly flooded with patch talk again? :v

Aren't you in Mexico? We can try, but it won't be tomorrow. Too busy.

 

[kirblar]

No one is going to be upset about the assists we are removing.

You're obviously haven't actually tried to do anything related to game design, have you.

 

[Karsticles]

What does everyone think about giving level 3s more utility? It seriously upsets me that Devil Must Die can get a full combo follow-up, but most other level 3 hypers can't. Shouldn't there be parity on this?

You're obviously haven't actually tried to do anything related to game design, have you.

By "no one", I mean no one that matters.

 

[kirblar]

What does everyone think about giving level 3s more utility? It seriously upsets me that Devil Must Die can get a full combo follow-up, but most other level 3 hypers can't. Shouldn't there be parity on this?

I'd actually think that many Level 3's feel close to "too good" already.

Literally no one uses them.

You're almost certainly wrong, I just don't have access to the data to prove it. That you don't understand Liberation (and what it means to a certain type of player) is telling. Assists can be "bad" in a competitive environment and yet still very good to have in the game.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I'm kinda burned out. There aren't any new games that I want, my 3DS has been sitting on a shelf for a month. There aren't any upcoming games I want for any platform.

I want to sell my PS3, but I still play Marvel every day and I finally have a main team so I feel like I've gotten a lot better. If Marvel or P4A was on PC I'd sell it in an instant. But I don't really enjoy AE, I don't know if I'll like KOF or Skullgirls, and Jojo's isn't a game I can sit in training mode for and there are about 2 people that play on GGPO.

I've been trying to play AE PC lately in case I sell my PS3, but man I don't like that game. And it doesn't look like any other good fighting games are coming to PC.

And once I'm back in SF, this time my connection is probably gone for good because I won't be coming back home again. I'm probably gonna leave the country next summer for a year to draw. Somewhere cheap and pretty like Thailand.

So I feel like now is the best time to sell it before the new consoles come out and the value goes down the drain.

What does everyone think about giving level 3s more utility? It seriously upsets me that Devil Must Die can get a full combo follow-up, but most other level 3 hypers can't. Shouldn't there be parity on this?

Nah, every character's different.

 

[Professor Beef]

Hey God's Beard, are you still up and available to play?

 

["God's Beard!"]

Hey God's Beard, are you still up and available to play?

Sure.

 

[Karsticles]

I'd actually think that many Level 3's feel close to "too good" already.

You're almost certainly wrong, I just don't have access to the data to prove it. That you don't understand Liberation (and what it means to a certain type of player) is telling. Assists can be "bad" in a competitive environment and yet still very good to have in the game.

LOL, are you really telling me that I don't understand how people use my own main? LOL.

Look, it has become progressively clear from your posts that you really don't understand what you are talking about most of the time. I get that you like to watch the game, but maybe you should keep it there.

Anyone who likes Liberation assist can keep it, and gets an improved version with my patch notes. Or don't you know what Dark Spell L does when Dormammu has 3 spells charged?

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72501971]I'm kinda burned out. There aren't any new games that I want, my 3DS has been sitting on a shelf for a month. There aren't any upcoming games I want for any platform.[/quote]
The 3DS has too much coming out for it for me. RPG machine, just like its predecessor!

I want to sell my PS3, but I still play Marvel every day and I finally have a main team so I feel like I've gotten a lot better. If Marvel or P4A was on PC I'd sell it in an instant. But I don't really enjoy AE, I don't know if I'll like KOF or Skullgirls, and Jojo's isn't a game I can sit in training mode for and there are about 2 people that play on GGPO.

What about the new JoJo's?

And once I'm back in SF, this time my connection is probably gone for good because I won't be coming back home again. I'm probably gonna leave the country next summer for a year to draw. Somewhere cheap and pretty like Thailand.

So I feel like now is the best time to sell it before the new consoles come out and the value goes down the drain.

The value will still be high because the PS4 isn't reverse compatible.

Nah, every character's different.

Right, but don't you think every level 3 should have some value outside of its damage? Some kind of utility?

 

[Dahbomb]

Iron Avenger gives a full combo too.

And please no extra utility on LVL3s. Just fix the ones that are ass.

And Liberation assist isn't being removed, it will probably get changed a bit.

 

[Karsticles]

Iron Avenger gives a full combo too.

And please no extra utility on LVL3s. Just fix the ones that are ass.

Which ones are ass?

I feel like Captain America and C. Viper have crappy level 3s.

 

[Solune]

Lunar Phase would have some extremely weird assist usage since it goes so high. I'm not sure I'm okay with that.

Where were you for Chris changes?

You can't teleport cancel Rising Sun?

A) The reason I'm ok with Lunar Phase is it whiffs on alot of active frames on standing opponents, completely whiffs on most crouchers,
But it does hit overhead. This means Vergil is capable of an unblockable... I guess the properties would need working. Not to mention Lunar Phase does more damage than Hulks Anti-Air Gamma Charge at max scaling, yikes.

Two reasons I'm not really participating, although I don't feel nearly quite as strong as kirblar, I'd like confirmation before speculating. Second is I've dropped Chris completely other than playing him for fun. In fact I've dropped Spencer too, I still think Vergil and Spencer are BFFs but my execution with Spencer is bad, since I can't make those midscreen conversions.

My main team right now is team Chris G but Vergil on point, Morrigan anchor.

And Dahbomb addressed it but, to go into more depth, the hitstun on CC Rising Sun, Trick, sj.M is insanely tight. I wish I could give you an example that was easy to test with, but if you try the combo, Helm Breaker, Call Vajra + Hightime > s.H xx Rising Sun > sj.M you will know the exact timing of CC Rising Sun followup.

Lunar Phase doesn't provide Cold Shot or Tenderizer amount of lock down. In DT it would be faster so it would provide less lockdown (but a bigger hit box). I am not sure the type of unblockables you can get off of it to be honest.

Right the assist versions of these moves don't have the same hitstop as point versions so you don't get that "freeze". Rapid Slash also keeps lockdown heavily already too.

 

[kirblar]

LOL, are you really telling me that I don't understand how people use my own main? LOL.

Look, it has become progressively clear from your posts that you really don't understand what you are talking about most of the time. I get that you like to watch the game, but maybe you should keep it there.

Anyone who likes Liberation assist can keep it, and gets an improved version with my patch notes. Or don't you know what Dark Spell L does when Dormammu has 3 spells charged?

Yes, I am telling you that if you don't understand why an assist that can be used to create one of ten distinct moves is something that is going to be massively appealing to a % of the game population, than you really don't understand a whole lot of about game design in general.

 

[Karsticles]

A) The reason I'm ok with Lunar Phase is it whiffs on alot of active frames on standing opponents, completely whiffs on most crouchers,
But it does hit overhead. This means Vergil is capable of an unblockable... I guess the properties would need working. Not to mention Lunar Phase does more damage than Hulks Anti-Air Gamma Charge at max scaling, yikes.

The whiffs are what bother me. A pinning assist with gaps for command grabs and left/right mix-ups sounds too good.

Two reasons I'm not really participating, although I don't feel nearly quite as strong as kirblar, I'd like confirmation before speculating. Second is I've dropped Chris completely other than playing him for fun. In fact I've dropped Spencer too, I still think Vergil and Spencer are BFFs but my execution with Spencer is bad, since I can't make those midscreen conversions.

You're welcome to your opinion, but if you wait for patch confirmation before speculating, then you're already too late to provide advice. Remember Vanilla and Ultimate? Everyone got so excited and wanted to suggest characters when the game was announced, but the roster was set in stone. Ditto for Ultimate.

My main team right now is team Chris G but Vergil on point, Morrigan anchor.

Sounds like a blast. -_-

And Dahbomb addressed it but, to go into more depth, the hitstun on CC Rising Sun, Trick, sj.M is insanely tight. I wish I could give you an example that was easy to test with, but if you try the combo, Helm Breaker, Call Vajra + Hightime > s.H xx Rising Sun > sj.M you will know the exact timing of CC Rising Sun followup.

Oh, so you can trick, but CC Rising Sun has less hitstun on it?

Right the assist versions of these moves don't have the same hitstop as point versions so you don't get that "freeze". Rapid Slash also keeps lockdown heavily already too.

Now I don't know what to do for a third assist. I feel like tracking Judgment Cut would be ass.

Yes, I am telling you that if you don't understand why an assist that can be used to create one of ten distinct moves is something that is going to be massively appealing to a % of the game population, than you really don't understand a whole lot of about game design in general.

I am going to explain this to you, and then you are going to shut up because you have no idea what you are talking about.

Liberation has close to zero use outside of three moves as an assist: 3D0C, 1D2C, and 2D1C. Ideally, we'll add 0D3C to that list when we're done.

In its current form, Liberation is 95% useless until the opponent can charge up one of those moves with Dormammu on point, and then put him in the back to call the assist once and hope it was all worthwhile.

By changing Liberation to Dark Spell L, Dormammu is able to charge 3D0C on the sidelines. When he has all 3 charges, the 4th assist call will use 3D0C, since that's how Dark Spell L works.

But what about those precious setups, like the 2D1C calls FChamp likes to make? Those aren't a problem, either. If FChamp DHCs Dormammu in and charges 2D1C, Dark Spell L will unleash 2D1C when called. Heck, if FChamp wants, he can call the assist twice in the neutral to charge 2D0C so that it only takes one charge to get to 2D1C when Dormammu is tagged in. After the 2D1C-lover uses the Dark Spell L assist, he can choose how to use it next. In no way possible does Dark Spell L as an assist interfere with team composition outside of using 0D0C as an extension, which barely does anything compared to the 3D0Cs that can be earned in its stead.

It's a good buff and a nice replacement assist for Liberation. No one who just wants to use Liberation for its non-3D0C spells will have a problem with the change, because they can still tag Dormammu in and charge their spells for their setup like always. Dark Spell L just adds more versatility to the assist. It doesn't lose any.

I don't even know why you are in this thread. You don't post here normally, and all you've done is complain about the fact that we're making changes to the game. Buzz off if you're not interested in discussing the game or the patch.

 

[Dahbomb]

Which ones are ass?

I feel like Captain America and C. Viper have crappy level 3s.

Deadpool, Nemesis, Jill, Viper, Cap America, Firebrand. Viper's LVL3 is just redundant as is Cap's LVL3 when he's being played point. Trish's LVL3 also isn't very good, finicky to connect. Fatal Claw loop made Weapon X obsolete. Raging Demon is cool but no follow up after it makes it a waste of bars more times than not (we will address this though or try to).

And who cares about Judment Cut, he already has Rapid Slash and a better Rising Sun. Not everyone needs 3 good assists. Hell Cap and Jill still have meh assists (although Shield L would be the staple for Cap).

 

[FlyFaster]

Iron Avenger gives a full combo too.

And please no extra utility on LVL3s. Just fix the ones that are ass.

And Liberation assist isn't being removed, it will probably get changed a bit.

Iron avenger should have greater speed as well as faster Startup, and longer projectile invulnerability.

edit:

this move should also be Air OK.

 

[Karsticles]

Deadpool, Nemesis, Jill, Viper, Cap America, Firebrand. Viper's LVL3 is just redundant as is Cap's LVL3 when he's being played point. Trish's LVL3 also isn't very good, finicky to connect. Fatal Claw loop made Weapon X obsolete. Raging Demon is cool but no follow up after it makes it a waste of bars more times than not (we will address this though or try to).

And who cares about Judment Cut, he already has Rapid Slash and a better Rising Sun. Not everyone needs 3 good assists. Hell Cap and Jill still have meh assists (although Shield L would be the staple for Cap).

Do you think C. Viper, Trish, and Captain America should have post-level 3 follow-ups? I think we all know that Trish's level 3 is going to become OTG capable.

Raging Demon does have the beam hyper follow-up. I think, that if you really want to, you can XFC the beam and get a full combo.

So you think I should just keep Vergil on Judgment Cut L?

 

[Solune]

The whiffs are what bother me. A pinning assist with gaps for command grabs and left/right mix-ups sounds too good.

Yah I think that Lunar Phase come to think of it might be too good, at least as a point version thrown into assist. Not to mention Ground Bouncing rofl.

You're welcome to your opinion, but if you wait for patch confirmation before speculating, then you're already too late to provide advice. Remember Vanilla and Ultimate? Everyone got so excited and wanted to suggest characters when the game was announced, but the roster was set in stone. Ditto for Ultimate.

I mean I'm not against it, I think it's great the community is being vocal about it too. I don't think that my input would be that valuable though and you guys have covered alot of material and are full capable of knowing what's good and what isn't.

Also this new job I have atm is killing my free time.

Sounds like a blast. -_-

Call Dark Harmonizer + Hitconfirm Judgement Cut into Devil Trigger > Stinger? Sogood.gif

Oh, so you can trick, but CC Rising Sun has less hitstun on it?

Yup in the nearly unfollowupable phase of hitstun.

Now I don't know what to do for a third assist. I feel like tracking Judgment Cut would be ass.

I think tracking Judgement Cut is fine especially if it retains its properties of not being affected by HSD. I wish Vergil had a unique assist like Frank West or something where he does his Force Edge + Yamato combo string from DMC3 SE.

And LOL god damn that is a Viscant x Alukard blow up right there.

OH BTW. I finally did the follow up from fullscreen Morrigan + Rapidslash to full combo =3. I will make a video soon.

 

[Vice]

Do you think C. Viper, Trish, and Captain America should have post-level 3 follow-ups? I think we all know that Trish's level 3 is going to become OTG capable.

Raging Demon does have the beam hyper follow-up. I think, that if you really want to, you can XFC the beam and get a full combo.

So you think I should just keep Vergil on Judgment Cut L?

You can follow up Cap's level 3 with a level 1. The timing is just strict.

The biggest problem with his level 3 is the lack of startup invincibility.

 

[Professor Beef]

I think I can actually hear GB laugh when he kills Joe.

 

[Karsticles]

OH BTW. I finally did the follow up from fullscreen Morrigan + Rapidslash to full combo =3. I will make a video soon.

Do you just mean Call Rapid Slash, Soul Fist wall x1, jump, qcf.H, air dash forward, j.H, qcf.H, unfly, etc.? Because that's old to me.

Vergil with Dark Harmonizer is so good...I just got tired of how easy it was to win with him like that. The start of the round is rough, but once you get that first hit in...the pressure never ends.

Alright, so here are the characters in their current states; people have been quiet about them, but maybe it's just time for bed. I'll leave it all here for a refresher in the morning or for late night chatter:

Vergil:
*Spiral Swords is now a level 2; vertical hitbox decreased slightly; may shift to one other sword formation free of cost.
*Dimension Slash may no longer cross up; recovery improved slightly (no longer punishable on hit).
*Lunar Phase vertical hitbox increased slightly.
*Helm Breaker can no longer be canceled into non-hyper, non-teleport moves, is now -1 on ground block, and has no hitbox behind it.
*Round Trip glitch removed.
*Invincibility frames on Devil Trigger removed.
*Rising Sun now causes the same hitstun as its point version when used as a crossover counter.
*Rapid Slash is now -20 on block.

Assists: Rapid Slash, Rising Sun, Judgment Cut (Tracking)

Tron Bonne:
*j.H returned to Vanilla status.
*Servbot Takeout can be X-Factor canceled on whiff.
*Gustaff Fire is now upper body invincible.
*Servbot Launcher assist now reaches superjump height.
*Beacon Bomb recovery reduced to 10 frames.
*Servbot Takeout sends servbots onto the screen regardless of whether the beacon hit.
*Bandit Boulder now travels full screen.

Assists: Gustaff Fire, Bonne Strike H (fully mashed), Servbot Launcher (Tracking)

Iron Man:
*Ground dash is now attack and crouch cancelable.
*Air dash down/forward and down back startup returned to Vanilla levels; current acceleration and momentum retained.
*s.S horizontal and vertical hitbox significantly improved.
*c.H missile travels straight forward now.
*Smart Bomb now differs in trajectory by input: L version closer to Iron Man, H version furthest away; hitbox significantly increased; assist version has 35 frames of startup.
*Smart Bomb can now be charged: after 15 frames of charging, gains a larger hitbox, more hitstun, more durability, and descends slower.
*Proton Cannon changed to +2 on hit, -5 on block; causes soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*No minimum air dash height.
* s.H and j.M hit boxes extended to match the hit box of c.M.
*Iron Avenger vertical hitbox increased.

Captain America:
*c.L is now +1 on block.
*j.d+H is now better for crossing up.
*Final Justice invincible from frames 0-36; travels faster.
*Shield Slash blockstun increased slightly.

Assists: Shield Toss M, Charging Star H, Shield Toss L

Marvel patch is causing so much salt, rage, and it's tearing everyone apart.

cacpcom pls.

No hate toward any Marvel OT posters from me!

Spoiler

Unless GB opposes the universal health buff.

 

[Frantic]

Marvel (theoretical)patch is causing so much salt, rage, and it's tearing everyone apart.

cacpcom pls.

 

[Azure J]

Is this Judgement Cut assist buff full tracking or limited to the L/M/H versions of the assist? The latter is somewhat cool, the former could become nuts with DT hitboxes.

 

[Karsticles]

Is this Judgement Cut assist buff full tracking or limited to the L/M/H versions of the assist? The latter is somewhat cool, the former could become nuts with DT hitboxes.

I'm leaving it a bit ambiguous for the Capcom team. Ideally, it's fully tracking, but I don't know how complicated that would be for them to recode.

 

[Solune]

Do you just mean Call Rapid Slash, Soul Fist wall x1, jump, qcf.H, air dash forward, j.H, qcf.H, unfly, etc.? Because that's old to me.

There's that yah and hitconfirming with Soul Drain but I'm a year too slow LOL. Welp time for bed.

 

[Karsticles]

There's that yah and hitconfirming with Soul Drain but I'm a year too slow LOL. Welp time for bed.

Did you know that if you DHC from Dimension Slash early to Astral Vision, you can land Soul Drain?

 

[QisTopTier]

Anyone on psn want to play?

 

[Professor Beef]

GG God's Beard. All those RHK's in the last few games were me trying to do SJ Voomerangs. :|

Anyone on psn want to play?

I just got done with a long set against GB, but I guess I can play some more.

 

[QisTopTier]

GG God's Beard. All those RHK's in the last few games were me trying to do SJ Voomerangs. :|

I just got done with a long set against GB, but I guess I can play some more.

ok toss an invite

 

["God's Beard!"]

GGs Beef, Joe still best in the game. I see you've learned how to TAC the same direction twice in a row.

The 3DS has too much coming out for it for me. RPG machine, just like its predecessor!


What about the new JoJo's?


The value will still be high because the PS4 isn't reverse compatible.

None of the new RPGs seem fun to me.

New Jojo's is gonna suck and everybody knows it.

There aren't any other PS3 games I want to play except the Last of Us and I'm playing that with my best friend on her PS3 when she gets back from Korea.

Right, but don't you think every level 3 should have some value outside of its damage? Some kind of utility?

Not especially, no. Damage itself and the types of attack generally fill some other hole in the character's game. I'd rather just give the ones that are bad like Trish's something than give extra stuff to all of them just because. We should really be focusing on viabilty and not changing the game to our will. We've done way too much of that as it is. That's a different conversation.