Because at the end of a combo HSD would be high and all you would get is Shield Slash L into HCS. It's the same concept as with Iron Avenger. If you start combo with Iron Avenger you get to relaunch from Smart Bombs, if used at the end of a combo all you get is Smart Bombs PC. That's fair.
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Oh, alright. I read "full combo" as Final Justice hits, but not all of it hits.
36 frames of invincibility seems like a lot, and he might not need all of that invincibility if he travels across the screen faster.
Vergil changes:
+/- Spiral Swords is now a level 2; vertical hitbox decreased slightly; may shift to one other sword formation free of cost.
+/- Dimension Slash may no longer cross up; , does not cause hard knockdown, only soft knockdown, recovery improved (so he doesn't get punished by the knockdown change on hit, still punishable on block)
+ Lunar Phase vertical hitbox increased slightly.
- Helm Breaker can no longer be canceled into non-hyper, non-teleport moves, is now -1 on ground block, and has no hitbox behind it.
- Round Trip glitch removed.
- Invincibility frames on Devil Trigger removed.
+ Rising Sun now causes the same hitstun as its point version when used as a crossover counter
- Rapid Slash is now -20 on block
+/- Spiral Swords is now a level 2; vertical hitbox decreased slightly; may shift to one other sword formation free of cost.
+/- Dimension Slash may no longer cross up; , does not cause hard knockdown, only soft knockdown, recovery improved (so he doesn't get punished by the knockdown change on hit, still punishable on block)
+ Lunar Phase vertical hitbox increased slightly.
- Helm Breaker can no longer be canceled into non-hyper, non-teleport moves, is now -1 on ground block, and has no hitbox behind it.
- Round Trip glitch removed.
- Invincibility frames on Devil Trigger removed.
+ Rising Sun now causes the same hitstun as its point version when used as a crossover counter
- Rapid Slash is now -20 on block
Dude it's Captain America... invincibility is like his whole gimmick. There is no such thing as TOO much invincibility on the character.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
I thought we were buffing backflip?
At least, all level 3s should allow a combo if you xfactor the recovery, ala Wesker. (Wesker can get it w/o xfactor, but it's a tight unconfirmed link)
At least, all level 3s should allow a combo if you xfactor the recovery, ala Wesker. (Wesker can get it w/o xfactor, but it's a tight unconfirmed link)
You didn't say why on that. The invincibility on the Backflip is fine, it gets you out of a lot of stuff even some hypers. Would need to elaborate on why he needs it.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
So you could mash cartwheel across the screen like a bad ass
How do people feel about possibly increasing the startup of Helm Breaker slightly? Obviously not Dante slow, but a little more than 10 frames? Also, I think you should clarify if the hitbox you're referring to is the swing or the hilt of Force Edge.
Also, I'm assuming Vergil no longer has any taunt animation after Dimensional Slash.
That's fine. It just seemed excessive.
Karsticles
Member
I don't think Captain America should get full combos off of his air throws any more than Morrigan should. He's a zoner. Air throw combos are generally something that rushdown characters get to boost their OSes. He can get combos with an assist already, and I think that's enough.
Shield Slash should definitely not have a returning hitbox if Cap blocks. You're looking at every single rushdown matchup becoming nigh impossible against him because all Cap has to do is throw the shield out to protect himself from everything.
Shield Slash should also not get a durability increase. Cap has two main moves: Shield Slash, and Charging Star. If Cap has to deal with so many projectiles that Shield Slash isn't cutting it, he should use Charging Star or make use of his double jump to better aim the Shield Slash. Giving Shield Slash 10 projectile hit points just means he will destroy other keepaway characters. It will beat Plasma Beam, Aim Master, Soul Fist, Hadoken, EMD, etc. He should not be able to plow through everything with a projectile invincible move and plow through everything with Shield Slash.
Cap is actually a great character as he is, but people don't use him because his best partner sucks (Iron Man), and the meta has too much cheap stuff that makes patient characters less viable (outside of Morrigan/Doom, thanks to ChrisG). We're removing a lot of that cheap stuff and buffing Iron Man, so I think we should be cautious about messing with Captain America in such a huge way. Small changes are the way to go with this guy, he is strong as-is.
This is what I am willing to approve for him from that list:
Captain America:
*c.L is now +1 on block.
*j.d+H is now better for crossing up.
*Final Justice invincible from frames 0-36; travels faster; allows for post-hyper combo follow-up through Shield Slash L OTG.
*Shield Slash blockstun increased slightly; causes more pushback on block on the first hit, and pulls the opponent in more on the second.
Assists: Shield Slash M, Charging Star H, Shield Slash L
A lot of level 3s have that much invincibility. No worries.
I am against Dimension Slash no longer causing a hard knockdown. I don't see why this change is necessary, and it removes one of like three hypers that Morrigan can get full damage off of with Shadow Servant. There's no reason to nerf team synergy like that.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Or cross him up. Or kill the shield. I don't really care either way, though.
Karsticles
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72582246]Or cross him up. Or kill the shield. I don't really care either way, though.[/QUOTE]
A lot of characters can't cross up that easily, and the shield can't be killed by most rushdown characters. If it can, then that character is already devoting frames to their projectile instead of hitting Captain America, and Captain America wins most zoning wars.
A lot of characters can't cross up that easily, and the shield can't be killed by most rushdown characters. If it can, then that character is already devoting frames to their projectile instead of hitting Captain America, and Captain America wins most zoning wars.
Then you need to add hard knockdown to Phantom Dance as well.
Some things are so derp and fraudulent that they take priority over team synergy. Vergil hitting someone with stray Dimension Slash. getting a full combo off of it, subsequently winning the game from it is too fraudulent.
This is a terrible reason. Full on zoners like Chris get full combos off of air throws, how is Cap any different? He is not a full zoner either, he's like a mix character sort of like Akuma. When did zoners get 4 frame cr.L with +1 on block? Hell even Hawkeye gets combos off of air throws.
That's the whole point of the character is beating out projectiles. It's stupid that a shield which is functionally supposed to deflect/reflect projectiles loses that function when it's thrown around. It's like Vergil losing teleport from Helm Breaker, it pretty much goes against the character. He doesn't destroy zoning with a durability increase when Shield Slashes have a lot of recovery, a lot of hang time, if he picks the wrong angle he gets punished for it always.
But earlier on you said Cap was a zoner when you tried to reason that he shouldn't be able to combo off of his throw... yet his durability sucks for a zoner. So now is he a zoner or an anti projectile character? Either way, low durability on his shield makes no sense.
I'm assuming this is partially to prevent the Dimensional Slash happy birthday = Team death?
The main difference between Phantom Dance and Dimensional Slash is obviously how unsafe Dimensional Slash is on block. I think that bullet point needs to be fleshed out a little more in general because it would require changing a few other aspects of the Hyper.
Karsticles
Member
Phantom Dance doesn't need to be the same as Dimension Slash in every way. It's actually more interesting when they have different abilities. It wouldn't matter if Phantom Dance had that ability anyway, because it doesn't juggle the opponent in place, it bounces them around the screen a bit. Wesker tends to THC at the end of his combos anyway, which is something Vergil doesn't (and can't) do. You shouldn't homogenize hypers just because they have similar visual effects.
We are nerfing Vergil way too hard. I'm already inclined to remove some of our Helm Breaker buffs. If someone is so dumb that they get hit by Dimension Slash in the neutral, that's their problem. It's no different from things like Hyper Sentinel Force or Chaotic Flame leading into full combos on XFC when used at the right time.
Spiral Swords is the biggest problem with Vergil, and we fixed that. His second biggest problem was the XF3 DT boost, and we fixed that. Outside of those two things, I actually consider him a very fair character. Helm Breaker is his only safe move in the neutral, and he needs it because he's the only character whose normals are not special-cancelable.
Chris isn't a zoner, he's keepaway. Same for Arthur. I'll add the combos off of his air throws, though.
Hey, if I had free reign, I would give Cap some kind of projectile deflecting ability. Charging Star is for beating out projectiles. Shield Slash is for locking rushdown down. He isn't supposed to win a fireball war, he's supposed to be smart about how he uses the shield at the right angles.
Not all zoners have great projectile durability. Viewtiful Joe's Voomerang has 5 durability points, and I sure hope you don't think that needs to be changed.
JeTmAn81
Member
Let's make it cancellable into a crouch with down. Wave backflipping.
You guys can have hard knockdown on Dimension Slash, I just never want to hear anyone complain about Vergil winning a game off of it ever again. And if his hard knockdown is still in tact no need to change his recovery, I only put that in because I was making the change to soft knockdown.
And Chris is not "keep away" either... he wants to be near you while mines are active. He is actually better when he's up close while mines are there because then he can go for his godlike throw game. Now he will have an overhead which means he is even better off up close.
And Chris is not "keep away" either... he wants to be near you while mines are active. He is actually better when he's up close while mines are there because then he can go for his godlike throw game. Now he will have an overhead which means he is even better off up close.
Karsticles
Member
I've never complained about Dimension Slash in the first place. Whenever I see someone let Vergil Dimension Slash on incoming I laugh because it's so easy to prevent.
I'm thinking about making Helm Breaker +0 on block again - thoughts?
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
It's invincible 1-13, it's vulnerable for the next 21 frames. (i.e. he gets longer vulnerability time than invincibility time) total time is 34 frames
Cap needs it to navigate the field of bullshit without having to do I risky charging star or hyper charging star (which doesn't work on everything.)
For example, it would definitely help get inside the range against hulk/haggar armor/pipe fest. It's not like shield slash is gonna keep those guys out.
For in game comparisons:
Felicia's is 5 frame startup 6-35 invincible, then 15 frames of recovery.
Frank's is 30 frames, no invulnerabilty, can he can special cancel it
X-23's Mirgage feint M is 3 startup, then 25 frames. She can cancel the beginning.
V Dodge invincilble to everything but throws 1-32, 13 frames of recovery, doesn't move, special/hyper cancelable.
Jill Feral crouch teleport forward. s 9 startup, (9-14 invincible) 2 frames of recovery, lol. special/hyper cancel.
Karsticles
Member
Different characters have different teleports. Captain America doesn't use his backflip to get in, he has a double jump, a safe-angled projectile, and Charging Star to do that. He uses the backflip for mix-ups only. Frank's roll definitely has invincibility on it at higher levels. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to roll through Chaotic Flame partially. Felicia uses Cat & Mouse to get in, and I plan on buffing it anyway. X-23 doesn't use Mirage Feint to get in. VDodge is for dodging. Feral Crouch is for getting in, so it needs a lot of invincibility. Plus Jill has no projectiles and weak air mobility.
You can't just normalize rolls because they're all rolls. They need different stats for different characters.
You can't just normalize rolls because they're all rolls. They need different stats for different characters.
Sounds like Cap needs less recovery on it to make it better, not more invincibility.
Maybe a bit of both... 1-20 frame invincible, 14 frames of recovery. Still has 34 frames total for the roll.
The argument is not bad I must say, 21 frames of recovery is considerable. If you mistime the assist call you can still get punished for the roll mix up.
Maybe a bit of both... 1-20 frame invincible, 14 frames of recovery. Still has 34 frames total for the roll.
The argument is not bad I must say, 21 frames of recovery is considerable. If you mistime the assist call you can still get punished for the roll mix up.
I dunno. The cartwheel serves the purpose it was intended to. Making it an approach move is too much. I also don't really see how a light increase in invincibility or decrease in recovery would would really help in the neutral game against Haggar or Hulk.
All rolls get punished for a mistimed assist call, though. I think your original assessment was correct. Maybe give him slightly less recovery, but don't give him more invincibility.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
OBVIOUSLY, duh.
I'm bring up the other rolls to compare and contrast what other characters have for the sake of conversations. Franks definitely has 0 invincibility, ever. He just has a really low profile, and chaotic flame has a wonky hitbox.
Felicia's Cat & Mouse is horrible b/c of how slow it is overall. You never seen Huoshen use it, when she has superjump Delta Kick.
Cap does ok against pure projectiles, but against physical attacks+projectiles, he suffers.
I think that's a good balance. I wasn't asking for a CvS2 roll.
After all, unlike almost everyone else, Cap can't cancel his at all, it should be the best. It's also a move that defines him.
I am 50/50 on this. I am not against improving invincibility/decreasing recovery because I would like to see the roll used more but it's not a NEED on him... it's more like a "that would be really nice to have in so and so situation".
Also if Felicia didn't have that 5 frame start up on her "roll" she would have an absurdly good roll.
I wanted the total frames to be the same though.
Also if Felicia didn't have that 5 frame start up on her "roll" she would have an absurdly good roll.
Are you sure? That doesn't sound right. Isn't the roll invincibility the whole idea behind the Kusoru's anti-Phoenix tech?
To the Vita!
(Please, Haunts and Combofriend, please give us the hitbox viewer on consoles! You are the only ones that can save us from Kaz!)
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
Nah, I'm pretty sure he blocks/ Xfactors the blast, rolls, cancels it into Grab Super.
Otherwise Spidey, She Hulk wouldn't be able to do the same thing... they don't have rolls.
If he X-factors the blast, why would he need to roll?
He uses Blue Light Special to kill, cancels it with X-Factor for spacing purposes and the setup, rolls through the Dark Phoenix explosion, and cancels the roll into the grab super.
The trick involves getting Dark Phoenix in a position where she can't avoid the grab. Frank sets it up with Blue Light Special, but technically anyone can do it if properly set up. Heck, Spencer can do it.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
I thought the roll was for positioning.
The guide says it has 0, even mentions it in text.
OH, just saw the video, he rolls->supers before the blast even comes out.
EDIT: Of course Gems Chen gets it wrong and credits the "rolls invincibility"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnUXsozgnDM
Can't watch it on this computer, but that is certainly interesting. I always assumed that it at the very least had some projectile invulnerability.
We need to have a myth buster show for Marvel.
Honestly speaking, if the Roll of Cap was designed to be only a mix up tool he wouldn't have needed that buff in Ultimate. He got it and it was an improvement to his game but obviously not OP. If the invincibility is still not enough to get the job done in some cases (the whole point of adding the frames to begin with) then further modification is probably needed.
I say 1-18 frames invincible, 16 frames recovery is solid. This is a reasonable change. Adding 5 frames more of invincibility and reducing recovery by 5. We have made more drastic frame changes to other characters so this is definitely not a big deal at all.
Honestly speaking, if the Roll of Cap was designed to be only a mix up tool he wouldn't have needed that buff in Ultimate. He got it and it was an improvement to his game but obviously not OP. If the invincibility is still not enough to get the job done in some cases (the whole point of adding the frames to begin with) then further modification is probably needed.
I say 1-18 frames invincible, 16 frames recovery is solid. This is a reasonable change. Adding 5 frames more of invincibility and reducing recovery by 5. We have made more drastic frame changes to other characters so this is definitely not a big deal at all.
Karsticles
Member
I'm almost certain that it has a little invincibility at the higher levels. I've had Frank roll through all kinds of stuff I'm throwing at him, and it's definitely not the hitbox. A Frank main at my locals confirmed that it has invincibility to me. The easy way to test it is to get Frank to level 5 and roll through a Hadoken.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I think I'm just gonna collect all my Hawkeye/Vergil/Magneto tech later then sell my PS3.
Someone else will have to take up the mantle.
Someone else will have to take up the mantle.
He only needs like 3-4 changes. Improved base damage, reduce potency of Charge Zoomerang, that Joe bomb infinite removed, better assist selection and RHK OTG.
I think we should lock the changes although we should give the Tron changes another pass over. Seems like we haven't discussed her enough here yet.
SolarKnight
Member
I fucking rolled through Bionic Lancer once. If that's not invincibility then I have no idea what is.
Karsticles
Member
Roughly agreed on Joe, though his damage is RR levels and he chips people better, so I'm not set on a damage increase. Letting RHK OTG is already a good damage buff. I think he's close to a perfect character.
Though I suspect we'll see some interesting suggestions from GB.
Thank you.
Current changelists:
Captain America:
*c.L is now +1 on block.
*j.d+H is now better for crossing up.
*Final Justice invincible from frames 0-36; travels faster; allows for post-hyper combo follow-up through Shield Slash L OTG.
*Shield Slash blockstun increased slightly; grounded version causes more pushback on block on the first hit, and pulls the opponent in more on the second.
*Captain America is not able to get full combos off of his air throw without using assists.
Assists: Shield Slash M, Charging Star H, Shield Slash L
Tron Bonne:
*j.H returned to Vanilla status.
*Servbot Takeout can be X-Factor canceled on whiff.
*Gustaff Fire is now upper body invincible.
*Servbot Launcher assist now reaches superjump height.
*Beacon Bomb recovery reduced to 10 frames.
*Servbot Takeout sends servbots onto the screen regardless of whether the beacon hit.
*Bandit Boulder now travels full screen.
Assists: Gustaff Fire, Bonne Strike H (fully mashed), Servbot Launcher (Tracking)
Vergil:
*Spiral Swords is now a level 2; vertical hitbox decreased slightly; may shift to one other sword formation free of cost.
*Dimension Slash may no longer cross up.
*Lunar Phase vertical hitbox increased slightly.
*Helm Breaker can no longer be canceled into non-hyper, non-teleport moves, is now -1 on ground block, and has no hitbox behind it.
*Round Trip glitch removed.
*Invincibility frames on Devil Trigger removed.
*Rising Sun now causes the same hitstun as its point version when used as a crossover counter.
*Rapid Slash is now -20 on block.
Assists: Rapid Slash, Rising Sun, Judgment Cut (Tracking)
Iron Man:
*Ground dash is now attack and crouch cancelable.
*Air dash down/forward and down back startup returned to Vanilla levels; current acceleration and momentum retained.
*s.S horizontal and vertical hitbox significantly improved.
*c.H missile travels straight forward now.
*Smart Bomb now differs in trajectory by input: L version closer to Iron Man, H version furthest away; hitbox significantly increased; assist version has 35 frames of startup.
*Smart Bomb can now be charged: after 15 frames of charging, gains a larger hitbox, more hitstun, more durability, and descends slower.
*Proton Cannon changed to +2 on hit, -5 on block; causes soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*No minimum air dash height.
* s.H and j.M hit boxes extended to match the hit box of c.M.
*Iron Avenger vertical hitbox increased.
Assists: Smart Bomb H, Repulsor Blast H, Unibeam M
Something something universal health buff. Honestly both Joe and RR qualified for a damage increase but whatever.
Only thing I would add on Tron is allowing self combo after throws/command throws from OTG Boulder follow up.
The Servbot Launcher assist should just be her shooting all 3 of them one by one. Would be like a ghetto Hidden Missiles. I think tracking is kinda paltry for the assist, having 3 hit boxes on the screen would have more utility.
Also remove the minimum height change from IM's list. And 15 frames charge time should specify that this is ON TOP of the 20 frame start up of Smart Bombs so it's 35 frames total.
Only thing I would add on Tron is allowing self combo after throws/command throws from OTG Boulder follow up.
The Servbot Launcher assist should just be her shooting all 3 of them one by one. Would be like a ghetto Hidden Missiles. I think tracking is kinda paltry for the assist, having 3 hit boxes on the screen would have more utility.
Also remove the minimum height change from IM's list. And 15 frames charge time should specify that this is ON TOP of the 20 frame start up of Smart Bombs so it's 35 frames total.
Did no one try "fixing" Dimensional Slash with Frantic's "Vergil disappears in place" suggestion? If he's "stationary" while not visible/tangible, that'd fix the dumb crossups and the super could retain its other properties, no? Basically, it'd be more like Okami Shuffle than Maximum Wesker.
this patch talk is all just a pipe dream, it was fun to talk about but I think you guys are taking it way to seriously. Nothing will come of it.
Only thing I'm really interested in is a new game, MvC4, with ~15 more characters on each side + balance changes, system changes and major buffs to Iron Man.
Only thing I'm really interested in is a new game, MvC4, with ~15 more characters on each side + balance changes, system changes and major buffs to Iron Man.
Agreed. It's really not a nerf needed. I mean yes, I hate fighting Cap, but at least getting a full combo off an air grab requires some execution without an assist.
EDIT: v Just have the orbs disappear if Vergil XFactors or DHCs.
So basically not only would it be really hard to hit him out of his hyper when he has distance from you, he can XF cancel on block with the Orbs still remaining so he can pressure you while you are locked down with Orbs... use the time to charge up a RT and mix you up when the hyper is over. If you get hit by the hyper it's the same shit, he OTGs you and kills your character.
My stance on this whole hyper cross up non sense is that just put it in the
changelog and let Capcom worry about how they want to fix.
And I want that Cap Roll buff in too. Cap is looking kinda sparse on the changes...
SolarKnight
Member
But then I wouldn't be able to punish it with a spring trap or Frank's servbot head on reaction and then laugh about it so I'm against that idea.
Karsticles
Member
Then leave. I don't get why that's so hard to do. No one is forcing you to come into this thread, and I've never seen you post in here until the patch talk started, just like kirblar. If all you want to do is complain about what we're doing in here, go somewhere else.
More comments on these suggestions, please.
Fewer active frames total?
Same total number of frames for the move, 5 more frames of invincibility (1-18), which are taken from the recovery (now 16).
You want more comments from me or 2nd/3rd opinion? For the Servbot Launcher assist it was Gods Beard who suggested it plus it's also suggested by FGTV.
You want more comments from me or 2nd/3rd opinion? For the Servbot Launcher assist it was Gods Beard who suggested it plus it's also suggested by FGTV.
Karsticles
Member
I can get behind a recovery cut, but more iframes...recovery cut makes sense since it would increase the number of assists he could use for cross-ups, and would increase his mix-up pressure when he gets in. But iframes...
Karsticles
Member
I thought he needed an assist to help him. Can you provide video proof? I've never seen a
Cap player do this.
Well the thing is that Cap players want the roll to be more useful in the neutral. Right now it's mainly a mix up tool, the iframes are a bit low to do what the move was intended to do... navigate some BS in the game. Obviously he has Charging Star for projectiles but against sword normal and armor characters he is lacking. I don't think 5 frames is much, other characters with invincible stuff still have more.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
I agree with the change. With Tron OTG's after throw command throw. I think giving boulder more hitstun would do the trick.
She can pick them up with down H, but still needs an assist, b/c boulder toss doesn't combo into much (even through it's cancelable to supers directly... lunch rush is too slow)
She can pick them up with down H, but still needs an assist, b/c boulder toss doesn't combo into much (even through it's cancelable to supers directly... lunch rush is too slow)