QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I don't think you know what you just did, but I have no complaints LOL
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
SolarPowered
Member
One day Mariel and Mike will show us just how lackluster a new Venom can be.
Karsticles
Member
I'm trying to pushblock him, though. I don't care if it leads to endless lockdown, because I can finally pushblock Shield Toss.
The bold changes are the one that I am fine with. I underlined the launcher change because that's a change I personally don't care about... people can have their better launch but it doesn't matter for high level play.
Smart Bombs don't need a hit stun increase. They have enough hit stun already where you can confirm a combo off of Smart Bomb and then air dash down into j.H. It has enough hit stun for relaunch infintes. It's all tight but it's all possible. If you increase hit stun too much he can have like relaunch combos in the corner... he already has like semi relaunches with Smart Bombs in the corner.
Honestly if you want a meaningful Smart Bomb change, give it like a charge property. You float in the air for like 40-ish frame to charge the Smart Bombs and now you get bigger, slower/floatier, more durability, more hit stun Smart Bombs. Basically like MVC2 Smart Bombs but slightly better. Wouldn't really need new animations either.
Air dash for all the different dashes need changes separately. Forward air dash, up/back, up/down and up/forward dashes should all remain the same. The only two dashes that should be changed are down/forward and down/back. However, the property of UMVC3 Iron Man to maintain momentum should remain, that's what makes him unique. My idea for that is when you are super jump height, when you initially do down/forward dash you do the standard tri dash animation and right as it's about to end a second wave of thrusters activate which maintain your momentum (basically how it is now but after you have gotten over the shitty start up animation).
Proton Cannon at +2 is unneeded. Even if it's negative it's fine... I just don't want it be like -47 on block and punishable on hit. I know why you made this change, you want Iron Man to have a safe DHC in the corner and I want that too. I think something like -3 to -5 is fine... no way is anyone going to punish it mid screen/full screen it's only a question of if he will be punished in the corner. The real change I want from Proton Cannon is the same as Storm's... I want soft knockdown before the final hit. It's extremely shitty trying to find DHCs that work into Proton Cannon and it's even shittier trying to PC XF PC.
In addition, these changes on his hit confirms:
St.H and j.M hit boxes extended to match the hit box of cr.M.
That's it for now. I think these changes alone would make Iron Man High tier at least. Also no changes on his assists.
I'd rather get stuck in an infinite block string than try to pushblock Shield Slash, get a normal instead and get hit by it on the way back.
Like 60% of the time I get hit by Cap it's because of a failed pushblock. 38% is cr.L, and 2% is cartwheel mixups.
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
Great video, Max putting in his work as well.
Karsticles
Member
Put it all in patch change format, THEN add explanatory paragraphs. It's tiring to translate everything because people write stuff in paragraph form.
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
Oh God, the Youtube comments.
louis rossignol 1 minute ago
In my honest opinion Vergil really needs a health buff. Somewhere in between Ryu and Dante's health bar. Also Sentinel is still TOO STRONG. He can Kill off of one hit in level 3 x-factor. I know I've done it before. Thank You capcom.
louis rossignol 1 minute ago
In my honest opinion Vergil really needs a health buff. Somewhere in between Ryu and Dante's health bar. Also Sentinel is still TOO STRONG. He can Kill off of one hit in level 3 x-factor. I know I've done it before. Thank You capcom.
SloaneRisette
Member
Like I said, I don't know about specific changes I want, but I'm good with this!
Would Shield Toss L still be able to OTG in assist form?
Cross post from the FGC weekly thread. was told balance change discussion is going on here.
edit:
Iron Man should get buffs. Tons of them.
- flight cancel ability like morrigan
- at least 2 new moves*
- better dashes, faster recovery
- more health
- give double jump back
- Increase range of repulsar blast
- more damage or quicker start up/recovery on unibeams
- Fix his hypers so he's not getting punished ON HIT. (Yes, some characters can punish IM after being hit by proton cannon, smh) so Faster startup/recovery here as well
- angled projectile of some kind
- give smart bombs their trajectory control back ala MvC2
- Give knee press from MvC2 back (but make it look cooler)
* tons of stuff to choose from here --- A homing missile, wrist lasers, a melee move or command grab, wrist rockets, a straight down smash move from the air, angled hand beams down diagonal from the air (similar to Doom) or up diagonal from the ground (similar to Cyclops from MvC2)
Anyway, that's the short list, he needs a ton of buffs. In this game with Magneto, Storm and Doom, there is really no reason, I mean literally, ZERO reason to ever play Iron Man. That's just not right imo.
edit:
Fix is launcher, incredibly stupid that it whiffs all the time and I had to learn certain combos just so I could get the launcher to hit at the end of it. Iron Man requires so much work and it's all for a shit return.
edit2:
old but true
edit:
*Ground dash is now attack and crouch cancelable
*Air dash down/forward and down back improved in start up dramatically, matching their vanilla counter part. These air dashes still retain their acceleration/momentum from UMVC3.
*St.S launcher vertical and horizontal hit box improved to allow more reliable combos
*Cr.H missile travels forward now
*Smart Bombs now differ in trajectories: L version closer to Iron Man, H version furthest away
*Smart Bombs now have a chargeable mechanic. After charging for 5 frames, bigger, floatier, more hit stun and more durable Smart Bombs appear. Similar in style to MVC2 Smart Bombs.
*Proton Cannon now has improved recovery, enough so that on hit he is not negative and on block he is -5.
*Proton Cannon will cause soft knockdown if canceled before the final hit
*J.M and st.H hitboxes extended to match the range of cr.M for more reliable hit confirmations
*Air dash down/forward and down back improved in start up dramatically, matching their vanilla counter part. These air dashes still retain their acceleration/momentum from UMVC3.
*St.S launcher vertical and horizontal hit box improved to allow more reliable combos
*Cr.H missile travels forward now
*Smart Bombs now differ in trajectories: L version closer to Iron Man, H version furthest away
*Smart Bombs now have a chargeable mechanic. After charging for 5 frames, bigger, floatier, more hit stun and more durable Smart Bombs appear. Similar in style to MVC2 Smart Bombs.
*Proton Cannon now has improved recovery, enough so that on hit he is not negative and on block he is -5.
*Proton Cannon will cause soft knockdown if canceled before the final hit
*J.M and st.H hitboxes extended to match the range of cr.M for more reliable hit confirmations
Karsticles
Member
Yes it would, that's why I have both versions.
-No one is getting a flight-cancel ability like Morrigan's. She has to pay in spades for that, and it's her unique trait.
-Our #1 rule is no new character animations, which means no new moves.
-His health is fine.
-Dashes will be improved.
-Double jump and air dash? Maybe.
-Repulsar Blast does not need more range - it's big right now.
-I need an argument for why Unibeam needs a buff.
-Proton Cannon will not be punishable on hit.
-Smart Bombs are getting trajectory control.
SloaneRisette
Member
Ok.
Honestly, I don't have many changes or grievances I can think of. I think Cap is mostly solid where he's at. That cr.L change is already huge (at least for me, personally, I'm sure other Caps would feel the same), and he already got two fantastic changes in Ultimate with double jump and OTG Shield Slash.
So if anyone has changes to suggest, I'll give feedback, but not sure what else to say on him, lol.
Karsticles
Member
I'm in the same position as you.
Iron Man changes; should Repulsar Blast be M or H version?
Iron Man:
*Ground dash is now attack and crouch cancelable.
*Air dash down/forward and down back startup returned to Vanilla levels; current acceleration and momentum retained.
*s.S horizontal and vertical hitbox significantly improved.
*c.H missile travels straight forward now.
*Smart Bomb now differs in trajectory by input: L version closer to Iron Man, H version furthest away; hitbox significantly increased; assist version has 35 frames of startup.
*Smart Bomb can now be charged: after 15 frames of charging, gains a larger hitbox, more hitstun, more durability, and descends slower.
*Proton Cannon changed to +2 on hit, -5 on block; causes soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*No minimum air dash height.
* s.H and j.M hit boxes extended to match the hit box of c.M.
Assists: Smart Bomb H, Repulsor Blast H, Unibeam M
On the topic of Vergil... stuff like Dimension slash cross up, Round Trip glitch and DT stacking are more system mechanics than balance changes. Those first two should be listed as separate issues because they require special attention.
And NO CHANGES to Iron Man's assists please for god's sakes. 15 frames of charging time is WAY too little. Needs to be at least 30+. Smart Bomb regular are 20 frame start up, everyone would just go for the superior charged version at only 15 frame higher!
There is no need to add minimum air dash height for Iron Man, that's not really an issue. In Vanilla he was perfectly fine in terms of tri dash speed and height.
And NO CHANGES to Iron Man's assists please for god's sakes. 15 frames of charging time is WAY too little. Needs to be at least 30+. Smart Bomb regular are 20 frame start up, everyone would just go for the superior charged version at only 15 frame higher!
There is no need to add minimum air dash height for Iron Man, that's not really an issue. In Vanilla he was perfectly fine in terms of tri dash speed and height.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
I think iron mans super already does soft knockdown before the last hit. I dhc into Felicia all the time. Would changing the cr. H require an animation change? Otherwise why not just make it otg and reduce the startup? Seems pointless though if he can wave dash and smart bomb. Could make it easier though for simple otg's into proton canon
Sorry if there's spelling errors, I'm on my phone now
Karsticles
Member
I made the charge-up time 15 because you wrote:
I thought that was too small, and made it longer. Did you mean to type 50?
And I removed his minimum aid dash height.
Are you feeling okay Dahbomb?
That was a typo... it was supposed to be 45 frames.
Cr.H is used for approaches and semi pressure (in the current game). You do cr.H fly cancel fly forward. Helpful with an assist too. It's also use for zoning by canceling cr.H into Unibeam or Repulsar.
One more change to add to Iron Man: *Increase the vertical hitbox of Iron Avenger
Because that shit whiffs a lot for a LVL3.
Nah it does not, otherwise you would be able to do PC XF PC. Some hypers do connect after it though but a lot don't.
Cr.H is used for approaches and semi pressure (in the current game). You do cr.H fly cancel fly forward. Helpful with an assist too. It's also use for zoning by canceling cr.H into Unibeam or Repulsar.
One more change to add to Iron Man: *Increase the vertical hitbox of Iron Avenger
Because that shit whiffs a lot for a LVL3.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Can caps level 3 be faster too then? Hyper Charging Star speed.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Wouldn't charged smart bombs necessitate a new animation?
Why not just spread out the bombs like in Marvel 2?
Tron with her Marvel 2 assist lol
Why not just spread out the bombs like in Marvel 2?
Tron with her Marvel 2 assist lol
Lunar Phase is perfectly fine as it is. The move already gives Vergil an X factor infinite on tall/big characters, extending it further would give him an infinite on the whole cast.
There is no need to nerf the vertical hitbox of SS as it's a LVL2 hyper now. That would've been fine if it was a LVL1. Your projectile shouldn't be able to negate a LVL2 hyper... come on now man.
Helm Breaker should not be cancelable into specials and st.H except for the Tricks. Helm Breaker cancelable into Trick is a staple of the character, at least give him that much when Dante gets Hammer cancel off of his Helm Breaker. Hit box nerf is fine.
Also add these:
*Invincibility frames from Devil Trigger removed
*St.H horizontal hit box reduced to match the on screen visual animation
*Dimension Slash now a soft knockdown hyper like Wesker; recovery improved so that you aren't punished on hit from it but still extremely punishable on block
Different colors, bigger bombs... same shit.
I guess I just feel that with the stuff you guys are putting out there, IM will still be a mediocre character.
- He had double jump in Vanilla and in MvC2.
- Better recovery on repulsar then?
- I asked for unibeam buff because he's so bad in so many areas that he needs all the buffs he can get.
I admit that both of you guys have far more balanced suggestions then I do. I would just like to see him actually be a powerful character and unless there is a major overhaul I just can't see IM ever being any good.
without new moves, I feel like he is kind of gimped. Maybe they can make the shoulder rocket home in on people or something, using pre existing assets.
I do like the idea of buffing smart bombs, but they need to much faster. The lack of trajectory control kills his zoning game.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
She can have all the buffs she wants as long as she doesn't get Vanilla j.H back
Karsticles
Member
Lunar Phase sometimes drops in combos. I want that to stop.
It still pisses me off that characters will tridash in when he activates it and get hit.
Done.
Done.
I don't support this nerf; it's fine.
Dimension Slash is a hard knockdown right now; why nerf it?
Faster how?
Too long. This is a fast game.
Iron man can fly right after fly-canceling c.H?
Done.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Faster as in whatever hyper charging star can connect with his level 3 can as well.
The fact it's slower than his level 1 hyper is a bit stupid.
The fact it's slower than his level 1 hyper is a bit stupid.
Dude, I love Sexual Rice, that guy's a badass.
This Iron Man is not mediocre... he would be High tier minimum. Where does he even lack in? He now has strong mobility in the form of aerial plink dashes and ground plink dashes which greatly improves his offense and defense. He can already combo off of all throws, faster dashes means easier confirms from throws. He already had great normals so with great mobility he becomes a footsie monster. Smart Bomb trajectory changes gives him more zoning coverage. Cr.H going forward is an improvement to his ground zoning. He has superior mix ups now because on top of air dash down j.L he now has tri jump j.M from Vanilla. Bigger range on j.M and st.H means more reliable hit confirms off of his cr.M. Proton Cannon causing soft knockdown before final hit mean I can punish characters full screen away with PC XC PC or DHC into other hypers freely without worrying about characters dropping. Also PC is SAFE on block means now Iron Man finally has a safe DHC in. If TACs remain in tact he would still be a TAC monster. He also has 2 great assists to choose from. PC makes for a great THC in. This Iron Man is almost equivalent to Magneto, great all around tools/mobility decent to start with but has a high learning curve.
The only extra change that I agree to add on him is the double jump from Vanilla and that's even a big maybe.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Dimension slash not crossing up isn't a real change, it's a wish.
Something like that explains why it doesn't cross up anymore. Or making it all one projectile like Arthur's level 3.
- Dimension Slash now a hit throw
Something like that explains why it doesn't cross up anymore. Or making it all one projectile like Arthur's level 3.
If it was like that people would do LVL1, XF and then go for pressure because the projectile would persist on screen.
I actually think this Iron Man might be too good. Like with a cancelable ground dash and tri dash his cr.L pressure becomes ridiculous.
That drops in combos because you didn't do the combo right! If you don't wait after something like cr.H for the right amount of time before SS, the Lunar Phase will hit but the last hit will whiff. This would be a problem if this was random but it's not, SS combos are fairly consistent.
I mean I don't really care, I just think it's not really something that NEEDS addressing. Although it would nice to see at least one buff on Vergil in that list.. that nerf list is NASTY!
You want Karst to nerf Vergil's coat?
You make me fucking sick.
My first team was Ammy/X-23/Vergil amidoingitrite?
Alright 35 frames then but no less!
Because even if it can be stuffed out there are situations where someone mistimes their meaty, Vergil reacts to it by doing Dimension Slash and punishes them with a hard knockdown, XF, Hightime character kill and mix up the opponent. This is WAY WAY too powerful for a hyper like that to have even without the cross up property. Too many matches have been lost to this fraudulent tactic. Wesker doesn't win as many watches because his random hyper does not hard knockdown, otherwise he would be getting many fraud wins too. Also Doom + Vergil THC is dumb because Doom can easily reaction punish an air dash with the THC (Vergil instantly punishes with the hyper) and then gets a full combo off of it.
Dimension Slash should only be used for combo finishing and maybe escaping a tight situation... it should not be used to convert a bad situation into a great situation.
the coat is too strong
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Captain doesn't need that many changes. Even if he's a mid tier with those changes he would still be able to hang with the top tiers. His moves are already potent as fuck. If you want a top tier captain just give him full invincibility on cartwheel with next to no recovery time or make charging star safe on block.
Now those are both stupid ass ideas and anyone that would seriously suggest them I wouldn't be able to take serious.
Captain can already hold his own just fine in the current version of the game and even hard counters some higher ups. What he lacks is ToD stuff that the top tiers have.
make stars and stripes safe on block
He still struggles with super jumpers, his throw game is lacking, his zoning is lacking and he still does not have a safe DHC in.
The most important change that needs to happen is that the shield needs to be way higher durability. It's a god damn shield that is suppose to be impervious to projectiles, the least it can do is not get swatted out like a fly.
The Stars and Stripe hyper should be cancelable mid hyper with S between the uppercuts. You can't cancel when he goes up in the air obviously. This gives the hyper more utility and it gives Cap a way to DHC in safely.
Also cr.L should be chainable rapid fire especially since st.L is.
Cap should be able to get a full combo off of air throws with OTG Shield Slash L. It already OTGs but the second hit doesn't come back fast enough to confirm a combo with it. I would honestly tighten up the travel time between the first and second hits of Shield Slash L.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Invincible hyper that's safe on block? yeah sure
Fine how about, Sheild Throw L on OTG causes the enemy to fly backwards so they get hit by the sheild on return so he can do fallow up combos on his own after a throw?
I already said to make his upwards shield throw have more durability, sheild throw in general isn't his anti zoning tool, that's what charging star is, shield throw is to keep out melee characters
I meant the normal specials, but Dahbomb went and made Hyper Stars and Stripes safe on block.
Let's not take Dahbomb seriously.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Cap may be the best balanced character in the game. Excellent damage, with the right assists has kill combos that are fair because they take reasonable amounts of meter. Low-execution barrier.
He's more viable simply by nerfing the better point characters in the game (Morrigan, Wolverine, Zero).
Hey it's still unsafe if you commit all the way to the end. :X
He sort of gets wrecked more than most characters by the health increase because he does not have great mix ups and he just BARELY TODs now, he won't be able to in the new patch. That's a big difference for him when before he could kill in one touch and now he has to land 2 hits. He has no potential for big damage off of throws either because his scaling is soft.
That's acceptable to me. And the durability increase has to apply to all his shields otherwise it doesn't make sense.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
How about he just recovers from stars and stripes mid air
:lol
Then just buff his damage so it stays almost the same in relation to what it is now
That is a very fair changelist to Vergil, dont disagree with any really, and Dahbomb already mentioned Trick being a staple.
Lunar Phase getting a buff - I'mokwiththis.jpg
On assists, unless Rising Sun were to get invincibility like Ryuenjin OR Increased Hitstun (currently crossover counter is very hard to follow up) It should be replaced with Lunar Phase.
Chun Li already does that and she can use her reversal in the air. :X
Solune reminded me that Vergil's Rising Sun assist needs to be fixed. It needs to retain the properties of the point version so when you CC into it you get a full combo and should be fully invincible when you CC into it.