Karsticles
Member
What Cap players are we hearing this from?
Vice and Smedwick are the only ones here AFAIK. Have they said this?And why remove the IM minimum air dash height buff? Can he already air dash right after fly-canceling c.H?
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
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Vice and Smedwick are the only ones here AFAIK. Have they said this?And why remove the IM minimum air dash height buff? Can he already air dash right after fly-canceling c.H?
Cap gets combo after air throw solo? I already knew he gets from ground throw but never seen anyone do it from air. Does he have to do something fancy like TK Shield Slash L really close to the ground?
On IM that minimum height isn't an issue he can dash low enough to the ground for practical purposes. In Vanilla he had legitimate tri dash pressure with j.M. No changes were made to his height restriction so if you gave him Vanilla type tridash it might be too good.
On IM that minimum height isn't an issue he can dash low enough to the ground for practical purposes. In Vanilla he had legitimate tri dash pressure with j.M. No changes were made to his height restriction so if you gave him Vanilla type tridash it might be too good.
About 4 minutes in for the back throw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_apOn1GIMk
It's possible from air throw as well. I just can't find the video its in. Cap is an underutilized character so not knowing about solo conversions for throws is common even amoung people who play him.
I like his role the way it is currently. It's a but like a bold cancel that automatically crosses up. It really helps his unsafe normals.
You have to dash back a bit before doing so mid-screen, but yes.
Yeah. It works from normal jump height and lower. Going for the assist conversion is almost always easier.
Karsticles
Member
I want IM to be about to c.H, fly, air dash forward, using the missile for cover.
I just learned that Cap has an X-Factor infinite, hahaha.
Vice, can you think of any other changes you would like to him? How do you feel about the roll buffs? What about a 5 frame reduction on Shield Slash's startup or something?
Karsticles
Member
He can just c.H, fly, air dash right away? That's what I've been asking you for pages.
You can just watch this video (I time stamped for you) on some Iron Man approaches and decide yourself what you want:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyt_jGJ_YDg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyt_jGJ_YDg
Karsticles
Member
It's a yes or no question. -_-
Oh right, and we need to nerf Iron Man's minimum special scaling to 20%.
Roll has always worked fine for me. It can completely go through supers like Phoenix Rage or Bionic arm on reaction as it is. Roll canceled into HCS or HSS is a near full-screen punish for everything.
Aside form being a mixup tool it helps Captain America's normals as you can cancel all of his ground based attacks into the roll which makes his blockstrings against charcters safer. Not many players like to toss it out in the middle of block string but something like. LMH+assist+cartwheel cancel is relatively safe and very dangerous.
I've always wanted it to be jump cancelable during recovery but that may be a bit much.
Also, IIRC his standing S is something like -4 on block with a lot of pushback so I don't think there are any characters, outside of X-factor, that can actually punish his ground strings.
The hitbox on his j. Up+H needs to be fixed though. It's supposed to be a counter divekick/anti-air but it's completely useless.
Shield Throws start up is fine as is for me. You're not going to win a fireball war as Cap so it's mainly a tool used to bait people into doing something dumb and get hit when the shield returns and as a combo tool.
I would like L. Shield Slash to travel under other fireballs and certain beams though, it is sliding across the ground after all.
Yes this please.
I'd like to also see Smart Bomb input changed to S+Atk. The mastermind behind SRK Smart Bomb (and SRK Web Swing while I'm at it) is a real jerk.
To be honest, I don't even want a trajectory change on cr.H. Mostly because the angle at which it comes out, if it went straight forward it would go over short characters and the main utility of the move is against short characters who duck under beams. You would have to rework the animation for it to travel across the ground at a space where it would hit short characters. Iron Man wouldn't have to do funky shit like cr.H call assist fly approach to get in... he can just get in like other characters do which is through a proper ground dash or a proper tri dash.
Karsticles
Member
Anything missed? I think the only suggestion I haven't incorporated that we've talked about is Tron's Servbot Launcher assist. I'm curious what people think about that.
Captain America:
*c.L is now +1 on block.
*j.d+H is now better for crossing up.
*j.u+H vertical hitbox increased.
*Final Justice invincible from frames 0-36; travels faster; allows for post-hyper combo follow-up through Shield Slash L OTG.
*Shield Slash blockstun increased slightly; grounded version causes more pushback on block on the first hit, and pulls the opponent in more on the second.
*Shield Slash L vertical hitbox reduced; now passes under some beams and projectiles.
Assists: Shield Slash M, Charging Star H, Shield Slash L
Iron Man:
*Ground dash is now attack and crouch cancelable.
*Air dash down/forward and down back startup returned to Vanilla levels; current acceleration and momentum retained.
*s.S horizontal and vertical hitbox significantly improved.
*c.H missile travels straight forward now.
*Smart Bomb now differs in trajectory by input: L version closer to Iron Man, H version furthest away; hitbox significantly increased; assist version has 35 frames of startup; can now be charged: after 15 additional frames of charging, gains a larger hitbox, more hitstun, more durability, and descends slower.
*Proton Cannon changed to +2 on hit, -5 on block; causes soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*No minimum air dash height.
*s.H and j.M hit boxes extended to match the hit box of c.M.
*Iron Avenger vertical hitbox increased.
*Minimum damage scaling on specials reduced to 20%.
Assists: Smart Bomb H, Repulsor Blast H, Unibeam M
Tron Bonne:
*j.H returned to Vanilla status.
*Servbot Takeout can be X-Factor canceled on whiff.
*Gustaff Fire is now upper body invincible.
*Servbot Launcher assist now reaches superjump height.
*Beacon Bomb recovery reduced to 10 frames.
*Servbot Takeout sends servbots onto the screen regardless of whether the beacon hit.
*Bandit Boulder now travels full screen; hitstun increased to allow solo combos off of throws.
Assists: Gustaff Fire, Bonne Strike H (fully mashed), Servbot Launcher (Tracking)
Vergil:
*Spiral Swords is now a level 2; vertical hitbox decreased slightly; may shift to one other sword formation free of cost.
*Dimension Slash may no longer cross up.
*Lunar Phase vertical hitbox increased slightly.
*Helm Breaker can no longer be canceled into non-hyper, non-teleport moves, is now -1 on ground block, and has no hitbox behind it.
*Round Trip glitch removed.
*Invincibility frames on Devil Trigger removed.
*Rising Sun now causes the same hitstun as its point version when used as a crossover counter.
*Rapid Slash is now -20 on block.
Assists: Rapid Slash, Rising Sun, Judgment Cut (Tracking)
Captain America:
*c.L is now +1 on block.
*j.d+H is now better for crossing up.
*j.u+H vertical hitbox increased.
*Final Justice invincible from frames 0-36; travels faster; allows for post-hyper combo follow-up through Shield Slash L OTG.
*Shield Slash blockstun increased slightly; grounded version causes more pushback on block on the first hit, and pulls the opponent in more on the second.
*Shield Slash L vertical hitbox reduced; now passes under some beams and projectiles.
Assists: Shield Slash M, Charging Star H, Shield Slash L
Iron Man:
*Ground dash is now attack and crouch cancelable.
*Air dash down/forward and down back startup returned to Vanilla levels; current acceleration and momentum retained.
*s.S horizontal and vertical hitbox significantly improved.
*c.H missile travels straight forward now.
*Smart Bomb now differs in trajectory by input: L version closer to Iron Man, H version furthest away; hitbox significantly increased; assist version has 35 frames of startup; can now be charged: after 15 additional frames of charging, gains a larger hitbox, more hitstun, more durability, and descends slower.
*Proton Cannon changed to +2 on hit, -5 on block; causes soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*No minimum air dash height.
*s.H and j.M hit boxes extended to match the hit box of c.M.
*Iron Avenger vertical hitbox increased.
*Minimum damage scaling on specials reduced to 20%.
Assists: Smart Bomb H, Repulsor Blast H, Unibeam M
Tron Bonne:
*j.H returned to Vanilla status.
*Servbot Takeout can be X-Factor canceled on whiff.
*Gustaff Fire is now upper body invincible.
*Servbot Launcher assist now reaches superjump height.
*Beacon Bomb recovery reduced to 10 frames.
*Servbot Takeout sends servbots onto the screen regardless of whether the beacon hit.
*Bandit Boulder now travels full screen; hitstun increased to allow solo combos off of throws.
Assists: Gustaff Fire, Bonne Strike H (fully mashed), Servbot Launcher (Tracking)
Vergil:
*Spiral Swords is now a level 2; vertical hitbox decreased slightly; may shift to one other sword formation free of cost.
*Dimension Slash may no longer cross up.
*Lunar Phase vertical hitbox increased slightly.
*Helm Breaker can no longer be canceled into non-hyper, non-teleport moves, is now -1 on ground block, and has no hitbox behind it.
*Round Trip glitch removed.
*Invincibility frames on Devil Trigger removed.
*Rising Sun now causes the same hitstun as its point version when used as a crossover counter.
*Rapid Slash is now -20 on block.
Assists: Rapid Slash, Rising Sun, Judgment Cut (Tracking)
It's just an SRK motion. -_-I'd like to also see Smart Bomb input changed to S+Atk. The mastermind behind SRK Smart Bomb (and SRK Web Swing while I'm at it) is a real jerk.
1) Please remove minimum air dash height thing
2) On your note of "charged" Smart Bombs, it is supposed to say "charged" version of Smart Bombs not "assist" version of Smart Bombs
I still would still like the Shield Slash L change for air throws, even if it is just to make things easier for us scrubs.
And same for Tron although now I have to make sure if she can combo solo or not from throws/command throws. I don't think she does but someone can correct me on this.
2) On your note of "charged" Smart Bombs, it is supposed to say "charged" version of Smart Bombs not "assist" version of Smart Bombs
I still would still like the Shield Slash L change for air throws, even if it is just to make things easier for us scrubs.
And same for Tron although now I have to make sure if she can combo solo or not from throws/command throws. I don't think she does but someone can correct me on this.
Helping Captain America combo from throws in an easier fashion wouldn't break the character. Right now it's more of an executional barrier which is silly in a game where a good chunk of the cast can combo from any throw easily.
For his playstyle, which is essentially a grounded form of Nova's with an emphasis on left-right mixups instead of high-low, getting more from throws in an easier fashion makes him a lot more dangerous and it would still require a reset or raw tag setup for a kill.
For his playstyle, which is essentially a grounded form of Nova's with an emphasis on left-right mixups instead of high-low, getting more from throws in an easier fashion makes him a lot more dangerous and it would still require a reset or raw tag setup for a kill.
Karsticles
Member
1) Please remove minimum air dash height thing
2) On your note of "charged" Smart Bombs, it is supposed to say "charged" version of Smart Bombs not "assist" version of Smart Bombs
I still would still like the Shield Slash L change for air throws, even if it is just to make things easier for us scrubs.
And same for Tron although now I have to make sure if she can combo solo or not from throws/command throws. I don't think she does but someone can correct me on this.
I changed Cap's throw conversions.
I thought Tron could already combo solo off of her throws.
I won't change the minimum air dash height until you tell me whether he can do c.H, fly, air dash, without adjusting his height.
Karsticles
Member
I tweeted our Tron changes to Al_Rikir, who has been a Tron main since Vanilla and still uses her. He got top 32 at Canada Cup, IIRC. Good player held back by his main.
Oh, you timestamped the video at like 19 minutes in, so I didn't see that. At 4:08 he doesn't air dash, he just moves forward in the air after flying. That's not what I want him to be able to do.
Preparing for those Zero nerfs? ;-D
Sounds like you play on a 360 pad.
That's not what you wanted? His air dash is like Nova's though so it will have some start up anyway.
The reason I am against the dash restriction is because this will give Iron Man absurd high low mix ups, something that other fly characters wouldn't be able to compare to. He already has an insanely fast up/down dash for high low and he would have a very good tridash j.M pressure with a 5 frame low to mix with. The extremely good normals combined with very good mobility is enough to make Iron Man as good as Doom, anything more like height restriction he starts to get too good.
In terms of approaches there would really be no shortage of that for him. The IM box dash is not even that good people would use tri dash, plink dash to move with him.. all options that would be faster and more effective that cr.H into air dash or whatever. I just think whatever you are trying to want from the character is not worth messing up the balance of the overall game play of IM.
Karsticles
Member
Arthur combo video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu7Y9DeXdOw
Iron Man:
*Ground dash is now attack and crouch cancelable.
*Air dash down/forward and down back startup returned to Vanilla levels; current acceleration and momentum retained.
*s.S horizontal and vertical hitbox significantly improved.
*c.H missile travels straight forward now.
*Smart Bomb now differs in trajectory by input: L version closer to Iron Man, H version furthest away; hitbox significantly increased; can now be charged: after 15 additional frames of charging, gains a larger hitbox, more hitstun, more durability, and descends slower; assist version has 35 frames of startup.
*Proton Cannon changed to +2 on hit, -5 on block; causes soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Minimum air dash height reduced to allow air dashes straight out of a grounded flight.
* s.H and j.M hit boxes extended to match the hit box of c.M.
*Iron Avenger vertical hitbox increased.
*Minimum damage scaling on specials reduced to 20%.
Assists: Smart Bomb H, Repulsor Blast H, Unibeam M
Iron Man:
*Ground dash is now attack and crouch cancelable.
*Air dash down/forward and down back startup returned to Vanilla levels; current acceleration and momentum retained.
*s.S horizontal and vertical hitbox significantly improved.
*c.H missile travels straight forward now.
*Smart Bomb now differs in trajectory by input: L version closer to Iron Man, H version furthest away; hitbox significantly increased; can now be charged: after 15 additional frames of charging, gains a larger hitbox, more hitstun, more durability, and descends slower; assist version has 35 frames of startup.
*Proton Cannon changed to +2 on hit, -5 on block; causes soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Minimum air dash height reduced to allow air dashes straight out of a grounded flight.
* s.H and j.M hit boxes extended to match the hit box of c.M.
*Iron Avenger vertical hitbox increased.
*Minimum damage scaling on specials reduced to 20%.
Assists: Smart Bomb H, Repulsor Blast H, Unibeam M
Who else even wants minimum height restriction change on Iron Man? I really don't think it's worth changing a limiter on a character just to be able to do a particular tactic because it's going to lead to more dumb stuff. I mean being able to fly after cr.H block string then tri dash into j.M or empty low... who is going to block that?
I'd like to also see Smart Bomb input changed to S+Atk. The mastermind behind SRK Smart Bomb (and SRK Web Swing while I'm at it) is a real jerk.
Agreed.
So Nova has a bit of a DHC glitch from his air throw. At any height if you air throw then rocket super and DHC into another characters super the thrown character will be in a spinning knockdown state (like what Frank West players do to get a more levels)
Characters like Dr. Strange, Veril and Dante can get full combos from this. It's a bit costly but for Team Nemo it seems really helpful should Spencer die.
Characters like Dr. Strange, Veril and Dante can get full combos from this. It's a bit costly but for Team Nemo it seems really helpful should Spencer die.
Karsticles
Member
A lot of characters have something like this. Any throw -> hyper (if time) -> install DHC usually works.
I used to do it with Vergil air grab -> Devil Trigger -> Astral Vision.
Is that Vergil DHC extension at 2:00 new? Never seen it before.
Only for certain characters. For the ones who can jump height doesn't matter as you can do a raw tag combo with them from barely off the ground to super jump height.
That's good to know.
Karsticles
Member
It's just a small reduction.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Trish should get a 1 frame airdash height restriction. It's weird that she has 8 frames.
I don't think it's worth it. I mean every change for IM there's a clear reason for it being there (well the hitbox change on Iron Avenger is more of a quality of life thing, not really something he needs). Like as an IM player I don't see why I NEED that change. In fact, I need justification for why it should be there because if all you want to do is cr.H into fly dash that's not worth it especially at the cost of potential balance problems that comes from changing a general limiter on a character.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";72634966]Trish should get a 1 frame airdash height restriction. It's weird that she has 8 frames.[/QUOTE]
SEE WHAT YOU STARTED!
I know it was posted before, but I can't find where: what's the link to the doc with all changes so far?
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Yes you can...it's a little hard sometimes because her wave dash is shitty. I don't even think it's a proper wave dash.
Wesker
*Return invincibility of Rhino Charge from Vanilla. Scaling remains the same.
*Phantom Dance no longer crosses up
*Active frames on all counters increased
*Glasses mechanic reworked or removed (looking for suggestions on this)
Hawkeye
*Cr.M always connects after Cr.L
*Tracking on the Gimlet projectile improved (or the active frames) because you shouldn't be able to dash out of it
Hulk
*Normal and special damage scaling reduced to 20% each
*Gamma Quake is throw invincible before the rocks come down
Arthur
Don't know shit about the character but at the bare minimum he needs the hard knockdown removed and he needs to be able to refresh Gold armor
*Return invincibility of Rhino Charge from Vanilla. Scaling remains the same.
*Phantom Dance no longer crosses up
*Active frames on all counters increased
*Glasses mechanic reworked or removed (looking for suggestions on this)
Hawkeye
*Cr.M always connects after Cr.L
*Tracking on the Gimlet projectile improved (or the active frames) because you shouldn't be able to dash out of it
Hulk
*Normal and special damage scaling reduced to 20% each
*Gamma Quake is throw invincible before the rocks come down
Arthur
Don't know shit about the character but at the bare minimum he needs the hard knockdown removed and he needs to be able to refresh Gold armor
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Either he is broken glasses Wesker permanently or the glasses thing only works if the glasses got broken. If he does phantom dance at any point with glasses then he remains "glasses wesker". Or he just doesn't take his glasses off before his super, so he still has an opportunity to have them broken.
At that range I'm not sure it matters. We're only talking about low gunshot.
But again, I'm certainly not married to the idea. Alternatively, it'd be nice if it always connected on the point character. Right now, it pretty much always OTGs the assist.